Bonds joins Aaron, Ruth with 700 homers

[ALinChainz]

By GREG BEACHAM, AP Sports Writer


September 17, 2004


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds hit his 700th home run Friday night, toppling another milestone and edging closer to Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron in his quest to become the greatest slugger in baseball history.

Bonds rewarded his fans in the opener of the San Francisco Giants' nine-game homestand with an opposite-field home to left center leading off the third inning. It came on an 0-1 pitch from Jake Peavy and gave the Giants a 4-0 lead over the San Diego Padres.

As Bonds rounded second base, the Giants launched streamers and a fireworks display from the scoreboard and light towers in center field. He pointed skyward as he crossed home plate, then took a curtain call to a joyous standing ovation.

The Giants also unveiled two enormous banners on the light towers: One featuring Bonds with `'700'' below him, and another featuring action shots of Ruth and Aaron and their corresponding totals.

Bonds' 42nd homer of the season is a mere steppingstone in the 40-year-old's march toward Ruth's once-unthinkable 714 and Aaron's 755. Bonds hasn't been slowed by age, steroid suspicions or the collective fear of pitchers and managers walking him with record frequency.

Bonds is the first player to reach 700 homers since Aaron on July 21, 1973. With good health and similar production, he could catch Ruth early next season -- and even have an outside shot at Hammerin' Hank next fall.

Aside from a slight chill in the air, the game featured nearly ideal conditions for Bonds' historic blast.

San Francisco is in a playoff chase largely thanks to Bonds' offensive production, increasing the importance of every homer. The slugger loves to face the Padres, who have allowed 79 of his homers -- 18 more than any other club.

Even the wind was cooperating, blowing out to right field at the Giants' waterfront ballpark. Amphibious fans began gathering well before the game, filling McCovey Cove with dozens of watercraft and ambitious swimmers.

Bonds has said he couldn't imagine ever surpassing Aaron as baseball's home run king. Aaron believes Bonds will pass him soon enough.

``I think it's just a matter of time -- maybe a year, two years,'' Aaron said. ``I think he will. I'll be happy. Everybody will be after him then. They won't be involving me. Records are made to be broken.''

Aaron endured racial epithets and death threats when he approached Ruth's record in the early 1970s. Bonds has endured speculation about his super-sized body and bulked-up power statistics that defy logic and age.

And he has done it all despite the managers and pitchers who are afraid to pitch to him.

Bonds has been walked a record 207 times this season, including a record 105 times intentionally.

Bonds needed more at-bats (9,063) than Ruth (8,169) but not as many as Aaron (11,145) to reach 700 homers. But neither Aaron (1,232) nor Ruth (1,999) had as many walks as Bonds' 2,276 when they hit their 700th home run.

After leaving San Francisco with 698 earlier in the month, Bonds hit just one homer on the Giants' eight-game road trip, which wrapped up Thursday in Milwaukee. Arizona manager Al Pedrique mostly refused to pitch to Bonds, though Bonds pulled within one of the milestone with a ninth-inning homer Sunday.

Bonds hit career homer No. 660 -- to tie godfather Willie Mays -- and No. 661 at home earlier this season, both against the Brewers. He also hit his 500th in San Francisco in 2001, and later that season broke Mark McGwire's season record by hitting Nos. 71-73 at home the final weekend of the season.

As hard as it has been for Bonds to get hittable pitches lately, he's more focused on the wild-card race, which the Giants led going into the weekend. Bonds always claims that his accomplishments will mean less to him later if he never wins a World Series ring.

The Giants fell six outs short in 2002, losing to Anaheim in seven games.

Bonds has been so busy dealing with questions about his pursuit of Ruth and Aaron, it's almost as if everybody has forgotten about the steroid scandal that surrounded him when this season began.

Bonds' personal trainer and longtime friend, Greg Anderson, is one of four men charged in an alleged steroid-distribution ring that federal prosecutors say supplied dozens of professional athletes with banned substances. They have pleaded not guilty.

During spring training, many fans wondered whether Bonds would start showing his age this season and whether the scandal would weigh on his broad shoulders.

If anything, it made him more focused. He's putting up numbers worthy of a seventh MVP award. But what he really wants more than accolades for his power prowess is another shot at that elusive ring that would mean the world to him.

[jcook11]

Congrats Barry I dont' hate you like every one else.GOOD JOB YOUNG MAN!

[Bill Lumbergh]

Let the bashing begin..........:rolleyes:

[Bill Lumbergh]

Barry Lamar Bonds 700! Congrats, thanks for all the great memories.........I was there for 500, and 660 BTW.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Ya know, about 5% of my opinion on Bonds is actually happy for him, 'cause he started his career in the 'Burgh....

A good chunk of my opinion is biased on the fact that the guy is a complete asshole, towards his teammates, the fans, and everyone around him....

I guess, in summary, is that while I think 700 HR's is a helluva accomplishment, I'm going to reserve judgement on his career until we get to the bottom of the BALCO investigation.... Personally, I HAVE to know what happened until I deem him the greatest player of all time....

Isn't it strange that BALCO has sorta hit the back burner ??

[POJO_Risin]

C'mon...nothing's going to come out of Balco...nothing...

Bonds has nothing to worry about...

so make your judgements based on what's out there...

If Bonds isn't the greatest of all-time when it's all said and done...

I'd like to know who is...

here's what he can do...minus the power (for all the roid folk)...

1. Hit...period...always could...power or not...he'd still be batting .350...

2. Run...period...not so much now because of his size (still does alright though)...but the guy was one of those "five-tool" guys for most of his career...

3. There was a time when he could field...not great...never a great arm...but his speed made up for a lot of that...lately...a bum...but the guy is old...

Without the power...a sure hall-of-famer...

with the power...perhaps...the greatest of all time...

[ALinChainz]

I kind of look at it like Ty Cobb.

All time asshole and an all time great.

Regardless, you still have to hit that little baseball coming at you at 90+. The hardest thing to do in sports.

3 out of 10 as a QB, you suck.
3 out of 10 as an NBA player, you suck.
3 out of 10 at the plate, you're a hitter.

Bonds will be setting the bar very high by the time he's done. Hell, he has the stolen bases to go along with his hitting.

[POJO_Risin]

That's something that's overlooked a ton...the sb piece...

and the walks...

and the fact that he hits nearly every pitch that's hittable...

because he has too...

[ALinChainz]

That recent road trip to Arizona, they walked him with the bases emtpy and the score 3-0 because the manager didn't want Bonds hitting ANY milestone homers there.

200 + walks and 105 intentional.

Would have never thought there would be a hitter feared like that during my lifetime anyway.

[POJO_Risin]

and that...in and of itself is where BALCO comes in...

now yes...Barry...more than likely...would be hitting those pitches no matter what...

but would he be feared if he didn't hit as many dingers as he does...

well...no...of course not...

and let's face it...if Bonds was pitched too...

he'd hit 100 dingers....or push the envelope...

So he's destroyed...if Balco throws out his name...and confirms...

[POJO_Risin]

I've NEVER seen a guy get walked with the bases juiced...and it happens to Bonds every year...

[Lou]

I don't care what anyone says, Babe Ruth will still be the best. Because he was a fine pitcher as well as the greatest hitter. There is no one else who was both a pitcher as well as a hitter.

[ALinChainz]

Would be a huge black mark, no matter the circumstance.

Baseball doesn't need that either.

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by Lou
I don't care what anyone says, Babe Ruth will still be the best. Because he was a fine pitcher as well as the greatest hitter. There is no one else who was both a pitcher as well as a hitter.


McGwire actually was USC's best pitcher when he was there...

He was a fantastic pitcher...

but...how long has it been since players have been promoted to do both?

How many OF's pitched in the minors...or in college...but the scouts say..."he's doing this...or that..."

Winfield is a prime example...he could pitch and hit...very well...

McGwire...

and many...many...others...

Ruth was in the right era...for that to happen...

but to say he was the greatest player of all time because he could pitch and hit just isn't taking into account the simple fact that there hasn't been a player that's been "allowed" to do both in 70 years...or more...

Rick Ankiel...for the Cardinals may be a prime example...

here's a guy who has a great arm (which is coming around again)...and can hit a ton...

but they won't let him hit...be a position player...because of his 100 MPH pitching (wild as fuck)...his gift...

[Bob_R]

Bonds hit his 700th homer on his 9,066th at bat. Ruth did it in 8,169 ABs, Aaron 11,145 ABs FYI.

[Bob_R]

Originally posted by Lou
I don't care what anyone says, Babe Ruth will still be the best. Because he was a fine pitcher as well as the greatest hitter. There is no one else who was both a pitcher as well as a hitter.

I agree!

[Figs]

Bonds is awesome! You can't compare eras, athletes are always getting better.

[NightProwler]

Baseball died with the strike of 1994.

RIP

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by Lou
I don't care what anyone says, Babe Ruth will still be the best. Because he was a fine pitcher as well as the greatest hitter. There is no one else who was both a pitcher as well as a hitter.

I'll be honest here...this has to be the most assinine reason why someone would call Ruth the best of all time...

other than the fact that he still...to this day is top five in so many offensive categories...

to throw in the pitching...and say that is why he's the best player...is...well...idiotic...since that just isn't realistic today...

[Lou]

And if it isn't realistic, then that's why Ruth is a legend and still the best baseball player of all time. Who else, even in Ruth's era, could excel at both?

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah...there are a ton of people who walk around preaching about Ruth's pitching...

had he have remained a pitcher...he would have never reached the status that he did as a hitter...

he is Babe Ruth because...quite honestly...he could do what NOBODY else could during that era...

He was larger than life...a media darling...and played in New York...making him even larger...

He changed baseball...before he hit 54 for New York (in his first year as a hitter-only by the way)...the most ever hit at the time was 29...by...guess who...Ruth...the year before...

the most by a non-ruth was 24...

that changed baseball...nobody had ever swung for the fences like Ruth did...

he CREATED the home run...

Ty Cobb thought he would ruin the game of baseball...less strategy...

the year after he hit 54...everyone had to have a homerun hitter...or altered their game...

1. to bring in fans...

2. to be competative with the Yankees...

Ruth also managed to play on one of the best teams of all time...the 27 Yanks...murderer's row...

pitching adds to his mantra for sure...

the pitching adds to his mystique...but if you make a case that he's the best player of all time BECAUSE he could pitch as well...you are totally insane...

even the great Babe Ruth could only muster 29 HR's during his best homer season as a pitcher...and that was as a part-time pitcher...

like every other good hitter...when the dumbass brass for the RedSox realized what they had...they stopped him from being a regular pitcher...

the same way every other SANE organization does...

Had the Red Sox brass had any damn sense...he would have NEVER pitched...and would have batted the entire time...

then, of course...he would have never went to the Yankees...where they took pitching out of the equation...

There are plenty of players...and McGwire was the one I mentioned because of his power...who are told not to pitch because of their talent behind the plate...

Trust me Lou...and if you have any kind of baseball knowledge...you'll know this...there are plenty of pitchers that could hit...and plenty of hitters that could pitch...

but you don't risk a power hitter...or an average hitter...by blowing out his arm pitching...

and you don't risk a pitcher getting up in front of the plate facing 90 MPH heat day in and day out...if you are any good...

it doesn't pay...

Now saying Babe Ruth is the best player of all time ISN'T idiotic...

saying he was because he PITCHED...is...

[POJO_Risin]

And Lou...if you really think Ruth is a legend BECAUSE of his pitching...lmfao...

then you truly are a wee bit less than I thought in the realm of sports...

[ALinChainz]

"Best of All Time" is a tough call. Depends on your definition. Ruth was a great pitcher, but didn't have the longevity of doing it to determine if he was a "great" pitcher.

He obviously saved the game in the wake of the Black Sox scandal. For his time, he was hitting more home runs than entire teams. I still watch the Goodman movie everytime it's on, and like the part where he call the shot against the Cubs, and Gehrig refers to him as a "God".

That, he is.

Many might say Jackie Robinson, Ty Cobb, Willie Mays, or Hank Aaron were the greatest for whatever reason. Tough call. Don't know if I could come up with a greatest. Cy Young won 512 games, was he the greatest pitcher ever? Who knows.

Like em all.

[POJO_Risin]

The fact of the matter is this...

before the mid-1920's...

there weren't really rotations...

the best players did everything...

and Ruth WAS a better pitcher until 1916 or 1917...then they had to specialize him a bit more...

there weren't really any minor league systems...no real coaching except in the majors...to be honest...

once minor league teams started affiliating themselves with major league teams...we'll say...1925 or so...

the thought of a pitcher being a position player ended for the most part...

Ruth was certainly an exceptional...exceptional pitcher...

but hell...an Indian...George Uhle...who was a pitcher...batted fucking .360...and they actually thought of moving him to the field...as well...this was in the early 1920's...can't remember the year...

so yeah...Ruth stood out because of the power...but there were others that did it as well...

Relief pitching started for real in the 20's...that Firpo guy was the first really good one...in 25 I think...

so starters played less...batted less...and stood out as hitters less...

less hitting...meant less cage time...less cage time...meant less hitting...

Ruth transcended his time...which made him great...

he was the true first media darling...and in New York...and during the roaring 20's...

and he could hit...

that's why he's still considered the greatest...

pitching...

bwahahahahaha...give me a break...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Jackie Robinson ?? Oh come on now....

Sure, he was a very good player....

But his stature is more of a figurehead because he was the first black player to make it to the big leagues....

[POJO_Risin]

As I said...

Ruth TRANSCENDED baseball...

the same way ALI transcends boxing...

Jordan in hoops...

they are almost bigger than the game they played...

[POJO_Risin]

But Robinson transcended his sport as well...

which is why some would throw his name into a hat...

he is the only player that has his number retired...

and yeah...it's because he was black...

but a lot more goes into it than that Va...

especially when you figure into account how well he played...with what he had to deal with...

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
Jackie Robinson ?? Oh come on now....

Sure, he was a very good player....

But his stature is more of a figurehead because he was the first black player to make it to the big leagues....

I didn't say I thought he was the greatest of all time.

Just have heard others try to make the argument.

You're going to get differing opinions on this subject.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

And moreover, I think the retiring of the number "42" on every MLB team in honor of him is complete political correctness bullshit.....

I fully sympathize with he and all of the other minority players who had to endure all of the discrimation back then, but that step to retire his number on all teams is simply appeasement....

Why not retire the 1st Latino player's number ??? BTW, that was Luis Castro, an infielder who played on the Philadelphia A's in 1902....

How about the 1st Italians' number ??

Or South Korean ??

Or Japanese ??

[ALinChainz]

I agree with that statement though, because of his race. But he did have to perform at a high level because he was the first black, which had to be tremendous pressure, just as being Babe Ruth had to be.

[POJO_Risin]

Jackie Robinson wasn't the first black player in the majors anyways...

and who gives a shit if they retire his number...

trust me Va...even you can admit the first hispanic...or indian...or South Korean or Japanese player didn't have to hide in fucking sheds with his family for some games because he was about to get lynched...

Jackie Robinson is a symbol that Major League Baseball uses to show that they became DIVERSE...

not the first...possible politically correct move...

but don't let baseball TAKE AWAY what Robinson as a person had to go through...which is what you are doing...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
I didn't say I thought he was the greatest of all time.

Just have heard others try to make the argument.

You're going to get differing opinions on this subject.

I hear ya bro, I didn't mean to say that you said it, but those "others" are weighing the historical perspective too much IMO....

He averaged .311, 13HR's, and 73RBI's in 10 seasons....

Respectable, I'll give ya that.... But the greatest of all time ??

[POJO_Risin]

Jesus H. Christ...

he ISN'T the best player of all time...

so fuck that conversation...anyone who says the term stats and all time and puts Robinson in there need to shut their pie hole anyways...

kinda like talking about Ruth being the greatest because on top of all that he did for the game from the offensive side...

he was a good pitcher as well...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Jackie Robinson wasn't the first black player in the majors anyways...

and who gives a shit if they retire his number...

trust me Va...even you can admit the first hispanic...or indian...or South Korean or Japanese player didn't have to hide in fucking sheds with his family for some games because he was about to get lynched...

Jackie Robinson is a symbol that Major League Baseball uses to show that they became DIVERSE...

not the first...possible politically correct move...

but don't let baseball TAKE AWAY what Robinson as a person had to go through...which is what you are doing...

Not sure I liked the way you said "even you", but I'll skip that part...

You don't think that Latino dude in 1902 went through some shit back in the day ???

As I said, there's no doubt that he, his family, and all of the other minorites went through all kinds of hateful shit.... I won't dispute that one bit....

But that didn't mean that MLB had to immortalize him....

It was 100% politics, because if they HADN'T done something like that, then MLB would be seen as insensitive to the plights of the blacks during Robinson's day....

[POJO_Risin]

Wait...you're saying that if they didn't retire his number...they would have been portrayed as insensitive...

dude...that's almost as idiotic as what Lou said...

they did it because they needed the publicity to get fans back in the game...nothing more...nothing less...

and that covers a ton of fans...doesn't it...

as for the even you comment...it's the general statement I always make when you hardline on the complete opposite of me...

ie...even you can admit that the Braves pitchers were more than just an expanded strike zone...

if I wanted to call you racist...

well...

I'd say...even a racist like you...

c'mon Va...when have you known me to pull a punch...;)

[ALinChainz]

Aaron went through the hate mail and immense pressure of chasing Ruth, something Bonds doesn't have to deal with n his pursuit. Does show you how times are so different then and now.

Depends on what your focus is, stats or impact in determining the best of all time. I like hearing the interviews with guys that played with and against Ruth, Cobb, and the rest.

The great thing about baseball, the history and the shit it can stir.

:D

[POJO_Risin]

Oh...yeah...I'm sure he did Va...the hispanic guy...

but as a symbol...

you don't pull out some obscure name from 1902 when there were few teams...and fewer people that gave a shit...

[POJO_Risin]

LMFAO...

Bonds will have to deal with the Roid shit though...;)

like McGwire and Sosa...and Bonds...lmfao...in the past...

but certainly not the same shit...

the travesty is how Aaron is considered the Fred McGriff of the all-time greats...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
they did it because they needed the publicity to get fans back in the game...nothing more...nothing less...

and that covers a ton of fans...doesn't it...


Are you on the pipe tonight ??? ;)

Publicity ?? To get what fans back, the black fans ?? 'Cause that's the only fans that it was aimed at....

You honestly think that the prototypical baseball fan, i.e. white, middle-class, if not upper-class, gave two shits after they retired his number on all teams ??

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
Aaron went through the hate mail and immense pressure of chasing Ruth, something Bonds doesn't have to deal with n his pursuit.

Yes, we all know that Aaron did as well....

If anyone's unsure, just stick a microphone in front of Hank, he'll tell you again.....

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
you don't pull out some obscure name from 1902 when there were few teams...and fewer people that gave a shit...

I can tell, you're impressed with the 1902 quote....

LMFAO, Google is a wonderful thing.... ;)

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
Are you on the pipe tonight ??? ;)

Publicity ?? To get what fans back, the black fans ?? 'Cause that's the only fans that it was aimed at....

You honestly think that the prototypical baseball fan, i.e. white, middle-class, if not upper-class, gave two shits after they retired his number on all teams ??

Okay Va...you have to be kidding me here right...

this didn't get the name of baseball into the spotlight? It didn't matter who gave a shit...

The president was involved...and they had a damn stadium tour that year...to drop off the damn number everywhere...

white, black...it didn't fucking matter...it put them in the news...

It was an attention getter...

yeah va...it was to get the black fans back...dumbass...no...(although it didn't hurt)

it was to get their name in the fucking news...Selig...baseball...and they used Jackie R as a tool...and yeah...Va...other than the redneck south...and the conservative right...people did give a shit...

give me a break with the black folk forcing Selig's hand...

he would have done it in 1995 had the fucker been able to erase everyone's memory and said it was the 50th anniversary then...

[POJO_Risin]

Hank was much different than Jackie R...no doubt...

much more...shall we say...out there...

Hank's big mouth notwithstanding...and your obvious disdain for him...lmfao...

he should be considered right up there with any other name mentioned...

Yahoo gave me 1911 by the way...

a couple of white looking Cubans...

[POJO_Risin]

I'm changing to google...

[POJO_Risin]

Trying to keep a sick kid from moving around is a ton of fun by the way...lmfao...

[POJO_Risin]

What's this thread about?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I never said that it was done to get the black fans back.... That was a question that I asked of you....

There is no way that MLB, idiotic as they are, could possibly think that retiring Jackie Robinson's number, not just for the Dodgers, but for ALL teams, while I agree would get them in the news, would do it simply for publicity....

It also had nothing to do with the black folk forcing Selig's hand.... They didn't need to....

It had ALL to do with MLB's fear of repercussions if they didn't do something to immortalize him when the 50th anniversary of his integration occured....

100% politcal correctness, plain and simple....

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Trying to keep a sick kid from moving around is a ton of fun by the way...lmfao...

Been there, done that.... Twice.....

How's the big guy feeling ???

[POJO_Risin]

Like shit...lmfao...

but he hears the football...and wants to play...lmfao...

can't say I blame him...

[POJO_Risin]

Glad I didn't buy tickets for the game today...

[Warham]

Barry Bonds 1990

[Warham]

1992

[Warham]

1994

[Warham]

1996

[Warham]

1998

[Warham]

2000

[Lou]

Well despite POJO's know-it-all attitude I'm still sticking by my proposition that no one alive ever had the combination of pitching and hitting skills of Babe Ruth. That he was a damn good pitcher was part of the legend and should not be ignored. Last time I checked, pitching was part of baseball too. To be a very good pitcher AND a phenomenal hitter is unheard of.

[Warham]

2002

[POJO_Risin]

It doesn't seem like ten years since he played for the buccos...

[Warham]

2004

[Warham]

You decide by the evidence.

[Lou]

Wow even 10 years ago he was pretty thin. And look at him now. That's another reason why I don't want to see him break the record--who knows how many of the homers wouldn't have gone out had he not roided up.

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by Lou
Well despite POJO's know-it-all attitude I'm still sticking by my proposition that no one alive ever had the combination of pitching and hitting skills of Babe Ruth. That he was a damn good pitcher was part of the legend and should not be ignored. Last time I checked, pitching was part of baseball too. To be a very good pitcher AND a phenomenal hitter is unheard of.

Ladies and gentleman...this know it all is acquiescing...

lmfao...

LOU'S RIGHT...THE BABE'S PITCHING ABILITY MAKES HIM THE GREATEST ALL AROUND PLAYER OF ALL TIME...

What a joke...

now we're down to "part of the legend..."

yeah...the same part of the legend that Gary Cherone holds as a member of Van Halen...

Oh...and to let everyone know what morons the Red Sox brass was back in the day...

It's nothing more than an interesting piece of his history...

him transcending baseball had everything to do with long home runs...New York...and partying during the 20's...

and the fact that a majority of his records were SO HUGE...that they are still top five material 75 years after the fact...

his pitching all those years...ONLY HURT HIS NUMBERS...

had he have been a position player from the start...like many thought he should have been...

he'd more than likely be in the neighborhood of 1,000 homers...

let's say he averaged just 30 dingers from 1914-1918...he'd be at 850 HR's right now...

Hank would be gonzo...and Barry would be a pipe dream...

Could he have been one of the greatest pitchers of all time? 2 20 game season say yes...

but being a contemporary of Dizzy and Dazzy Vance...hardly would have made him the person that he turned into...

he had NO CONTEMPORARIES...and it had nothing to do with his pitching stats...

Hey Lou...have you taken a moron pill or something? Or did I just miss this shit before...

[POJO_Risin]

Well...Babe had that going for him...he was a fatass from the start...

[POJO_Risin]

Hey Warham...just out of curiousity...

do the same thing with either Willie Mays or Henry Aaron from the time they started until the time they stopped...

or how about Willie Stargell...

players like that...

Let's see if there's a history of a player's size increasing dramatically...

[ALinChainz]

They all did get noticably bigger, especially Hank. His early years, he was much lighter and faster and thats when he stole his bases.

His power was his wrists, never his muscle anyway.

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah...he had built up his wrists from swinging cross handed for so many years...he may have done it his whole career...I can't remember...

but he had strong wrists and forearms...

so I hear...

[Lou]

You're twisting my words to make it sound like I'm saying that the pitching alone made him a legend. What I'm saying is that when you're considering the greatest baseball players of all time (and pitching and hitting are the components of baseball) that he was a pitcher and a damn good pitcher really enhances the legend, and spend 5 years pitching when he could have been getting more at bats...who knows how many more homers he would have had.

Anyway my point is that Babe Ruth encompassed BOTH of the core elements of the game, pitching and hitting, and not just one. That's what makes him baseball. That's why Babe Ruth IS baseball and because of that added element I can't see anyone topping Babe Ruth. Had he not pitched at all, I'd still think he was the best of all time but that he pitched and pitched well (I think he had 83 wins), had 5 years of many AB's taken away from him by being a pithcer and still hit 714 HR's after all that is legendary.

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Yeah...he had built up his wrists from swinging cross handed for so many years...he may have done it his whole career...I can't remember...

but he had strong wrists and forearms...

so I hear...

Not his whole career, but you're right. He would hold the bat with the left handed grip to hit right handed. I think they got him to switch before he made it to the majors.

LOL .. like VA said ... just ask him. :D

[Warham]

Here's my favorite player ever, Andre Dawson, when he was a rookie, I believe, then 10 years later...

Hit 438 homers

[Warham]

1987

[Warham]

1987

[Warham]

1996

[Warham]

Notice that he really only toned up. There wasn't much mass gained over his twenty year career.

It was from pumping weights with Lenny Harris in the offseasons in Miami. This is the way a real class act plays baseball.

[POJO_Risin]

Lou...Lou...Lou...

His pitching has nothing to do with his grandeur...

surely being a sportsman you know that...

You don't say...

"Well...He's tied with Cobb...but of course...Ruth pitched...that made him better...that made him baseball..."

You're looking at it as a player...

Ruth was more than a player...and in that sense...you embody the entirety of what Ruth was to the game...

Ruth transcended the game because he was the most outward of outwards...

He was the grandest of home run hitters...

he lived in the grandest of towns...

living the grandest of lives...

playing the unconditional favorite sport of the era...

He made baseball what it was soley on those reasons I mentioned...

his pitching is a sidebar to what makes Ruth what he was...

I'm not twisting what you said...you said he was the greatest of all time...because of the hitting and the pitching...

that was your first post...

you've changed it now to it is part of the legend (no shit)...so is him pointing to the outfield stands...

I'll give you the small part...I've even said as much in this idiot-turned thread...

His grandeur had nothing to do with pitching...

it had everything to do with the curse...

it had everything to do with called shots...

it had everything to do with his name...

it had everything to do with his lifestyle...

it had everything to do with the roaring 20's...

and it had everything to do with Babe Ruth carrying baseball on his shoulders and turning it into not just a regional game...but America's Pasttime...

and my friend...his career with Boston period is a sidenote...it essentially started the day he was traded...right after a scandal nearly ENDED baseball...

Now...if someone compares Bonds to Ruth...and we're debating that stance...and I side with the Bonds side...if that other person comes back at me with the fact that he PITCHED...I say the same damn thing I'd say to you. Ruth pitching has absolutely nothing to do with comparisons to Bonds...or Williams...or Aaron...

it doesn't make him any better...or any worse...it just makes him a player of his damn era...someone who had the ability to do something players of this era don't...

You compare him to Mark McGwire let's say...

He was a dominant starter for the most part in college...ERA right around 3.00...

mid 90's heat...

but he was a better hitter...

so after 2 years of spot starting...they shelved that...and focused him on hitting...

does that make him worse than Ruth? No...just a part of the day...the era...could he have pitched in the majors? mid-90's fastball? You tell me...

Of course...he had no choice in the matter...his coach did...

You can't say an era made a player bigger or better than another...

because with as athletic as people are today...it's absolutely ridiculous to think that players today couldn't do both...absolutely ridiculous...

it's just not part of the game...and hasn't been since at least 1920ish or so...

Hell...I remember hearing about Cobb starting 4 or 5 games when they asked him...and Tris Speaker...the same thing...

Now I'm not detracting from Ruth's stats as a pitcher...

it certainly adds to the LEGEND of Ruth...no doubt about it...

but what it doesn't do is make him the greatest player of all time...

what makes him the greatest of all time is the simple fact that he had 714 dingers...2100 runs...almost 3000 hits...2200 ribbies...2000 walks...and a lifetime average of over .340...over 5000 total bases...

He's top five in all those categories...and he retired...in 1935...70 years ago...



Then, of course...maybe you say that Bonds was better because he played a tougher position...or better because he stole 400 more stolen bases...

or maybe you say Ruth is better because he won more series...hell...won a series...

whatever...

[Sarge's Little Helper]

Lou...Lou...Lou...

His pitching has nothing to do with his grandeur...

surely being a sportsman you know that...

You don't say...

"Well...He's tied with Cobb...but of course...Ruth pitched...that made him better...that made him baseball..."

You're looking at it as a player...

Ruth was more than a player...and in that sense...you embody the entirety of what Ruth was to the game...

Ruth transcended the game because he was the most outward of outwards...

He was the grandest of home run hitters...

he lived in the grandest of towns...

living the grandest of lives...

playing the unconditional favorite sport of the era...

He made baseball what it was soley on those reasons I mentioned...

his pitching is a sidebar to what makes Ruth what he was...

I'm not twisting what you said...you said he was the greatest of all time...because of the hitting and the pitching...

that was your first post...

you've changed it now to it is part of the legend (no shit)...so is him pointing to the outfield stands...

I'll give you the small part...I've even said as much in this idiot-turned thread...

His grandeur had nothing to do with pitching...

it had everything to do with the curse...

it had everything to do with called shots...

it had everything to do with his name...

it had everything to do with his lifestyle...

it had everything to do with the roaring 20's...

and it had everything to do with Babe Ruth carrying baseball on his shoulders and turning it into not just a regional game...but America's Pasttime...

and my friend...his career with Boston period is a sidenote...it essentially started the day he was traded...right after a scandal nearly ENDED baseball...

Now...if someone compares Bonds to Ruth...and we're debating that stance...and I side with the Bonds side...if that other person comes back at me with the fact that he PITCHED...I say the same damn thing I'd say to you. Ruth pitching has absolutely nothing to do with comparisons to Bonds...or Williams...or Aaron...

it doesn't make him any better...or any worse...it just makes him a player of his damn era...someone who had the ability to do something players of this era don't...

You compare him to Mark McGwire let's say...

He was a dominant starter for the most part in college...ERA right around 3.00...

mid 90's heat...

but he was a better hitter...

so after 2 years of spot starting...they shelved that...and focused him on hitting...

does that make him worse than Ruth? No...just a part of the day...the era...could he have pitched in the majors? mid-90's fastball? You tell me...

Of course...he had no choice in the matter...his coach did...

You can't say an era made a player bigger or better than another...

because with as athletic as people are today...it's absolutely ridiculous to think that players today couldn't do both...absolutely ridiculous...

it's just not part of the game...and hasn't been since at least 1920ish or so...

Hell...I remember hearing about Cobb starting 4 or 5 games when they asked him...and Tris Speaker...the same thing...

Now I'm not detracting from Ruth's stats as a pitcher...

it certainly adds to the LEGEND of Ruth...no doubt about it...

but what it doesn't do is make him the greatest player of all time...

what makes him the greatest of all time is the simple fact that he had 714 dingers...2100 runs...almost 3000 hits...2200 ribbies...2000 walks...and a lifetime average of over .340...over 5000 total bases...

He's top five in all those categories...and he retired...in 1935...70 years ago...



Then, of course...maybe you say that Bonds was better because he played a tougher position...or better because he stole 400 more stolen bases...

or maybe you say Ruth is better because he won more series...hell...won a series...

whatever...

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[ALinChainz]

LMAO ..

Warham .. completely off topic, but that Star Wars pic makes me laugh every fucking time.

Fucking classic.

[POJO_Risin]

Oy...now we go into the Andre Dawson vs. Barry Bonds discussion...lmfao...

I'll give you the class act piece...he was certainly that...

Let's just say this about the MAJORITY of players from the beginning of baseball time...

AND I'M NOT SAYING THAT BONDS ISN'T ON ROIDS...he probably is...

what I'm saying is this...if you look at Mays...Stargell...hell...Mantle...Aaron...they all put on a ton of weight from the start of their careers...obviously because of the money they made...and getting old...

Now you look at players today...the really good ones...and for the most part...Andre Dawson notwithstanding...they put on weight as well...

now obviously...things are different between now and the 50's...60's...70's...even the 80's...

You gain weight...and you tone up...it's not inconceivable that a player of Bond's stature compensates that weight gain with muscle building...and unlike Lou...I don't see a gargantuan weight gain from year to year...it appears to be gradual...in particular...after he joins the Giants...

McGwire actually added on a ton of weight while he was injured..which makes a ton of sense...as he's trying to get healthy...

The question then is how did they do it?

We'll probably never know...

[Warham]

Thanks Alice.

I even laugh at it, even though I see it every time I post in a new thread. :D

[POJO_Risin]

I was thinking that same thing a bit earlier Al...

[Warham]

Hey, I even admit that Dawson wasn't as good as Bonds.

But he didn't need juice to hit those 400 home runs. :D

Stole 314 bases too.

[POJO_Risin]

The Hawk...what's his deal on the Hall...

I'm guessing he's joined Jim Rice and Mattingly in the grey area...

[Warham]

I think he should be in. Maybe I'm biased.

400+ HR, 1600 RBI, 500 Doubles, 100 Triples, 2700+ Hits, 1300+ Runs Scored, 300+ SB, .279 Batting

What else does the fuckin' guy need?

[POJO_Risin]

Man...I remember when he was with the Expos...Ron LeFlore...Tim Raines...although I don't think they ever played in the same OF together...although I could be wrong...

some speed there...Cromartie on that team...

and Gary Carter...catching...damn...

you'd have thought they would have been better...

[POJO_Risin]

lmfao warham...

perhaps some 'roids...

or...

he shoulda pitched...;)

[ALinChainz]

Won an MVP for a last place Cub team.

Impressive ... most impressive.

:D

[POJO_Risin]

I remember with the Cubs...he'd play shallow and turn singles into putouts at first base from right...with his gun...

[Warham]

Oh, forgot to mention he won 8 gold gloves, the same number as Mr. Bonds.

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Man...I remember when he was with the Expos...Ron LeFlore...Tim Raines...although I don't think they ever played in the same OF together...although I could be wrong...

some speed there...Cromartie on that team...

and Gary Carter...catching...damn...

you'd have thought they would have been better...

Right on bro, old school Expos.

The outfield that was the talk there for a while was Ellis Valentine, Dawson, and Cromartie. Not only did they bring the lumber, but all had mucho assists in the outfield too.

I remember the Street & Smiths Issue that year.

LeFlore, former Tiger, big favorite of mine. Was the first, not sure if the only, to lead both league in stolen bases.

Killer.

[POJO_Risin]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
Right on bro, old school Expos.

The outfield that was the talk there for a while was Ellis Valentine, Dawson, and Cromartie. Not only did they bring the lumber, but all had mucho assists in the outfield too.

I remember the Street & Smiths Issue that year.

LeFlore, former Tiger, big favorite of mine. Was the first, not sure if the only, to lead both league in stolen bases.

Killer.

Yeah...I remember that baseball card as well...

I loved me some Street and Smith's...

is that mag still published?

[ALinChainz]

It is. I haven't bought it in some time.

Liked it becuase they had issues for baseball, football, and college football. All I cared about back then.

Back then, you didn't have internet, or cable, squat.

Those mags were everything ... lol.

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah man...

you remember...

you'd look at the fucking thing so much that the color would come off the front and the back...

lmfao...you would wear off the pictures on the cover and the back...

Yeah man...I still have most of them...

[ALinChainz]

lol ... And fucking absolutely flip if you ripped the cover.

Hell yeah, was some good chit.

[Warham]

Hank Aaron...50's and 70's...

[Warham]

...

[POJO_Risin]

I remember when I was in the airport...jesus...I must have been 16 or 17...going to florida...

I went from Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Orlando...

and I had my Joe Carter issue of Streets and Smith's...

and I get into freakin' Pittsburgh and there's an issue with Johnny Ray on the cover...

I remember thinking there were two totally different issues...lmfao...

then I realized they were regional covers...lmfao...

[POJO_Risin]

He's definately a lot thicker...

[Warham]

But it'd be fat in the midsection, not roids.

[ALinChainz]

lol ... oh yeah ... almost making you think ..."my shit is old ... Mom, quick, I need some money."

[POJO_Risin]

How many fat players...minus David Wells and Bartolo Colon are there in baseball these days?

Don't you think most work out?

Do you think Mac was on roids?

[Warham]

I think Mac took what he said he did. But he is right. It was legal in baseball back then. Now it's not.

I believe most players work out now after games, instead of going out for a 12 pack like Ruth and Cobb did.

[POJO_Risin]

Androstack?

You think he gained 80 pounds of muscle from Androstack?

Androstenenadrone...I think it was called...

Christ...he gained more weight than Canseco did...

and you think he did it using that crap?

Christ...I used that crap...Androstack...and it wasn't half as good as Creatine (also legal)...and trust me...nowhere near as effective as roids...

no way he gained all that weight on Androstack...

[Warham]

McGwire hit 49 in his rookie year, probably before he started taking whatever it is he was taking, unless he started taking the shit in college, so I have more mercy on him. He could've hit 60 most likely without ever taking roids.

On the other hand, you got a guy like Bonds, who in his late 30's had a career high of 49, then jumps up to 73? Mmmm hmmm.

[Bob_R]

Originally posted by Warham
McGwire hit 49 in his rookie year, probably before he started taking whatever it is he was taking, unless he started taking the shit in college, so I have more mercy on him. He could've hit 60 most likely without ever taking roids.

On the other hand, you got a guy like Bonds, who in his late 30's had a career high of 49, then jumps up to 73? Mmmm hmmm.

Good points Warham. I think McGwire was a natural home run hitter while Bonds had been aided by steroids.

Bonds Home Runs by season

'86 16
'87 25
'88 24
'89 19
'90 33
'91 25
'92 34
'93 46
'94 37
'95 33
'96 42
'97 40
'98 37
'99 34
'00 49
'01 73
'02 46
'03 45
'04 44