U.S. Marine Controversy!!!

[alsip]

The only mistake this U.S. marine made was NOT shooting the reporter from NBC. It's one thing for the liberal media to attack Bush, but it is in poor taste to do so against our men and women in harm's way. They are ALL hero's, and one more dead Iraqi terrorist, brings us one step closer to winning the war on terror. God Bless Our Troops!!!

[DLR_EngineRoom]

aaaah....errr....shouldn't this be in the 'Front Line' forum???!!!

[DavidLeeNatra]

I guess that's what hitler's SS also thought on their march to moscow, dumbass...if you fight this way you're nothing better but these fucking terrorists...nothing for the main forum BTW

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DLR_EngineRoom
aaaah....errr....shouldn't this be in the 'Front Line' forum???!!!

It is complete w/ video link!

[Switch84]

:rolleyes: OOh, hang 'em high for shooting the poor 'innocent' cammi-wearing resistence fighter! Fuck that bullshit...war is HELL, and that idiot was playing dead, so our boy granted his wish.

[ELVIS]

I personally do not think that we have any right whatsoever to judge the actions of a soldier in a combat situation...

This mans actions are totally taken out of context...

For armchair quarterbacks to say anything about this situation is childish and disgusting...

[Jesus Christ]

Gregory, I believe this is what ye call a "duplicate thread", is it not?

[Angel]

I have to ask. If it was an American soldier down, would you prefer the enemy shoot him? Or capture him as a Prisoner of War?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
I have to ask. If it was an American soldier down, would you prefer the enemy shoot him? Or capture him as a Prisoner of War?

If it's over there, I don't think the question need be asked. The result is already predetermined. For once Angel, try using some logical thinking, huh?

:gulp:

[Angel]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
If it's over there, I don't think the question need be asked. The result is already predetermined. For once Angel, try using some logical thinking, huh?

:gulp:

Hey Brian, I knew your response would be that. This war is pretty hard to "categorize", isn't it? We KNOW that the insurgents wouldn't exactly be following "the rules", now don't we? However, I am a "shoe on the other foot" type person, and an Idealogist. Unfortunately, the ideal picture is not always logical. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
Hey Brian, I knew your response would be that. This war is pretty hard to "categorize", isn't it? We KNOW that the insurgents wouldn't exactly be following "the rules", now don't we?

But you're the first to whine and BITCH (Colonel Bitch, ;) ) when the US commits something you perceive as being unfair. Would you whine and complain if the US were to bomb mosques, hospitals, and schools?

[Big Train]

I think it is pretty straight ahead. The insurgents have a rep for using bombs and booby traps, so this guy reacting like that is a direct result of their choice of how to wage war.

If they didn't fight like that in the first place, he may have given him the benefit of the doubt. Live by the sword, die by the sword...

The reporter is lucky nothing got "embedded" in him.....

[Angel]

I would whine and bitch if ANYONE, ANYWHERE bombed places of worship, medicine, or education. Don't think it's because it's the US. It doesn't matter who, I would whine and bitch.

Remember, this bitch of mine is relatively new. On 9/12/01, I booked time off work, spent 22 hours on a bus to get to the border, and then spent 3 days in the US spending my money. I didn't have much, but I felt I had to support your economy the only way I could, and show my support. The money I used would normally have been used on buying Christmas presents for my family. That year, I felt the US needed it more. Now, what has happened that has changed? I certainly wouldn't repeat that if, God forbid, another attack took place.

And by the way, the Colonel BITCH, it really WAS a compliment the other day! ;)

[WACF]

Originally posted by Angel
I have to ask. If it was an American soldier down, would you prefer the enemy shoot him? Or capture him as a Prisoner of War?


This is the same city that this spring had 4 marines captured then hung from a bridge.

[lucky wilbury]

that was people from blackwater

[lucky wilbury]

Originally posted by Angel
I have to ask. If it was an American soldier down, would you prefer the enemy shoot him? Or capture him as a Prisoner of War?

i've never heard of any one being stabbed from a distance:

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20030728-122338-5552r.htm

Mom says soldier son was real hero of ambush in Iraq


By Julian Coman
LONDON SUNDAY TELEGRAPH

As she watched Pfc. Jessica Lynch's emotional homecoming on television last week, Arlene Walters struggled to suppress her growing anger.

For millions of Americans, Pfc. Lynch's first faltering steps in her hometown of Palestine, W.Va., were a moment of high emotion, a happy ending to one of the darkest incidents of the Iraq war.

For Mrs. Walters, however, the standing ovation and praise lavished on the young woman soldier, who was captured by Iraqi forces and later freed in a dramatic American raid, served only to highlight the contrasting treatment of her dead son, who fought in the same unit.

It was, fellow soldiers have told her, Sgt. Donald Walters who performed many of the heroics attributed to Pfc. Lynch by early news reports, and Sgt. Walters who was killed after mounting a lone stand against the Iraqis who ambushed their convoy of maintenance vehicles near Nasiriyah.

Yet few, if any, of the Americans watching Pfc. Lynch's homecoming last week have even heard her son's name.

"The military tell us that everyone who was in her unit was a hero," Mrs. Walters told the Sunday Telegraph. "In fact they have singled out Jessica Lynch as the hero, and they are not giving the recognition to my son that he deserves.

"The fighter that they thought was Jessica Lynch was Donald. When he was found he had two stab wounds in the abdomen, and he'd been shot once in the right leg and twice in the back. And he'd emptied his rounds of ammunition. Just like they said Jessica had done at first."

Sgt. Walters, a 33-year-old military cook from Oregon, had been serving with the ill-fated 507th Maintenance Unit, in which Pfc. Lynch was a supply clerk.

Two days after U.S. special operations forces rescued Pfc. Lynch from her hospital ward on April 1, an article in The Washington Post told how the female soldier had exhausted all her ammunition before capture, in an isolated and brave "fight to the death."

The article suggested that it was only after a prolonged battle, in which she was shot and stabbed, that Pfc. Lynch was taken prisoner. In all, 11 soldiers were killed and six captured. It subsequently emerged, however, that Pfc. Lynch's injuries were caused by her truck colliding with another vehicle as the convoy came under attack.

Last week, with no fanfare, the Army released a detailed report of the incident, which made it clear that a lone American fighter did, indeed, hold out against the Iraqis — but that the soldier was not Pfc. Lynch. It said that following the ambush, Sgt. Walters might have been left behind, hiding beside a disabled tractor-trailer, as Iraqi troops closed in. The report confirmed that he died of wounds identical to those first attributed to Pfc. Lynch.

"There is some information to suggest that a U.S. soldier, that could have been Walters, fought his way south of Highway 16 towards a canal and was killed in action. Sgt. Walters was in fact killed at some point during this portion of the attack. The circumstances of his death cannot be conclusively determined," the report says.

Fellow soldiers who witnessed the ambush have been less guarded. "One told me that if I read reports about a brave female soldier fighting, those reports were actually about Don," said Mrs. Walters.

"The information about what had happened had been taken by the military from intercepted Iraqi signals, and the gender had gotten mixed up. He was certain that the early reports had mixed up Jessica and Don."

Mrs. Walters and her husband now are struggling to persuade the U.S. military to acknowledge fully their son's bravery. Sgt Walters has been posthumously awarded the Bronze Star Medal, but his relatives argue that higher honors are deserved. The Army says the investigation into the incident is now closed.

"I just can't imagine him being left out there in the desert alone," said Mrs. Walters, who is still haunted by images of her son's lone stand.

"I'm not trying to take anything away from Jessica. We just want Don to get the credit he is entitled to for his bravery."

She has her own theories about the Army's reluctance to give him due credit.

"Perhaps the Army don't want to admit to the fact that he was left behind in the desert to fight alone," she said. "It isn't a good news story."

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
I would whine and bitch if ANYONE, ANYWHERE bombed places of worship, medicine, or education. Don't think it's because it's the US. It doesn't matter who, I would whine and bitch.



Ahh, but that's just it. Those terrorists are using those places to shoot at our boys from. Proven fact. Shall we give them a free pass because of this? I think not. Off with their fucking heads.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

How many threads for this topic? Just wondering.

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Angel
I have to ask. If it was an American soldier down, would you prefer the enemy shoot him? Or capture him as a Prisoner of War?

:( That's happened to soldiers (and civilians) throughout the history of man. The recent beheadings were done to civilians, not soldiers. CBS news is reporting that the female CARE director may have been killed (6pm news.) She isn't military; she's there to help them, and her husband's an Iraqi citizen.

I hope this story isn't true........

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Switch84
:( That's happened to soldiers (and civilians) throughout the history of man. The recent beheadings were done to civilians, not soldiers. CBS news is reporting that the female CARE director may have been killed (6pm news.) She isn't military; she's there to help them, and her husband's an Iraqi citizen.

I hope this story isn't true........

It is sadly, I started a thread.

[WACF]

Originally posted by Angel
I would whine and bitch if ANYONE, ANYWHERE bombed places of worship, medicine, or education. Don't think it's because it's the US. It doesn't matter who, I would whine and bitch.



I believe you would.

Too bad the insurgents don't respect those places enough not to shoot from there.

In the "The Sharp end" by James Davis(a retired Canadian Sgt.) he wrote about how in Bosnia Serbs and Croats under the cover of dark would sneak up to Canadian bases and fire mortars at their enemies hoping to have them fire back at the Canadians.

Under the U.N. the Canadians could not engage them...so they took off their insignias and any Canadian emblem and went hunting. They broke the rules of engagement but in a combat situation you do what you have to.

I do not condone the killing of wounded unarmed men...but...these guys face all kinds of boobytraped boddies. If the wounded man had held a grenade it could of been a couple of dead marines...fucked up situation.

[Big Train]

Again it is straight ahead...if you choose to engage in guerilla fighting tactics and use of human traps and bombs, then you can expect zero sympathy from your opponent if you are laying prone in that situation.

I'd rather he walk out alive, then take the chance (with the odds not in his favor) of giving the wounded guy a second chance. The shooting should be blamed on the wounded soldiers comrades, who removed the possibility of the American solider giving him a break. Likewise with holy shrines. If you are firing from them, you obviously don't consider them holy, so neither should the opposing force. End of story.

[JCOOK]

Armies are for one thing blowing up people and killing them there are no rules not for their side or for our side the object is to win

[JCOOK]

Armies are for one thing killing people there are no rules for our side or there's the objective of any army is to kill!

[Angel]

Originally posted by WACF
I believe you would.

Too bad the insurgents don't respect those places enough not to shoot from there.

I do not condone the killing of wounded unarmed men...but...these guys face all kinds of boobytraped boddies. If the wounded man had held a grenade it could of been a couple of dead marines...fucked up situation.

Believe me, I whine and bitch about those guerilla bastards too! They're even worse-placing their own places of worship at risk (If they are even Muslim that is, there are a lot of atheists and christians in the mid-east as well)! They show no respect for their OWN fucking religion, and place their "brothers and sisters" at further risk. I think some have me wrong here, that soldier had no other choice but to shoot, because these bastards (sorry, they're insurgents or guerilla's, I don't classify them as terrorists) are not your typical enemy, are they? I put the question out there for the purpose of playing devils advocate... something I'm good at doing!

[Angel]

Originally posted by JCOOK
Armies are for one thing killing people there are no rules for our side or there's the objective of any army is to kill!

No, not the objective of ALL armies. The Canadian objective is typically one of peace-keeping.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Angel
No, not the objective of ALL armies. The Canadian objective is typically one of peace-keeping.

Angel, I do not support the current war in Iraq. But if you are trying to assert some intangible moral superiority of the Canadian (Armed) Forces, I have to take issue.

Did you realize that Canada's most elite army formation, The Special Service Force (the rough equivalent to the U.S. Army Rangers) was disbanded in disgrace in 1993 because many of its members were implicated in a series of torture-murders of Somali citizens (mostly for entertainment) while they were "peace-keeping" in Africa? But don't take my word for it, look it up yourself.

[ODShowtime]

yikes, that's not very peaceful

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
yikes, that's not very peaceful

No! Like the U.S. Special Forces guys that came back from Afghanistan and killed their wives, they claimed the malaria drug they were given made them do. Maybe, but...

Here's the story:

Panel Blames Brass for Misdeeds in Somalia
By Howard Schneider
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, July 3, 1997; Page A22


Canadian peacekeeping troops in Somalia were "victimized" by commanders who sent them into the field unprepared and ignored problems developing in an airborne regiment until they escalated into the torture and killing of a Somali teenager, a commission established to review the country's troubled 1992-93 African mission has concluded.

Far from being the fault of "a few bad apples," the events in Somalia reflected "systemic, organizational and leadership failures" in the command structure of the Canadian Defense Forces, the commission's chairman, Justice Gilles Letourneau, said today during an Ottawa news conference at which the study was released.

Defense Minister Art Eggleton immediately criticized the report as overly harsh and "insulting," comments that reflect ongoing controversy over Canada's response to the Somalia affair. Eggleton and a predecessor who cut off the commission's work at its most sensitive stage contend that Canada's military already learned from its mistakes in Somalia and should be allowed to "put the past to rest."

However, after a two-year investigation into an episode that stained Canada's image as global keeper of the peace, the commission asserted that the military's problems run far deeper than the country's political and military leaders have admitted.

The problems were evident from the start of Canada's involvement in Somalia, according to the report, when senior officials overlooked known discipline problems in the airborne regiment and assigned it to the mission without proper training or preparation for peacekeeping in the midst of a civil war. They continued in the field, where officers ignored incidents of "thuggery" and improper use of weapons among the troops. When two Somali youths were shot in the back after apparently trying to steal supplies from a Canadian base, the incident was ruled to be within the "rules of engagement," even though a military doctor said he thought a criminal investigation was needed.

And ultimately, the commission found, the problems continued as senior officers tried to manipulate information to play down the incidents in Somalia, and later lied to the commission – alleged misdeeds attributed to "rampant careerism" in Canadian defense headquarters.

"We found deep legal and moral failings," Letourneau said. "There is no doubt that senior officers did lie. . . . Do we want a military that harbors people that are willing to go under oath and lie?"

The commission's report, titled "Dishonoured Legacy," included recommendations that the military police and justice system be placed under independent command and that an inspector general be established to investigate military operations.

"Our recommendations are concerned with ensuring that Canadian military personnel will never again be sent on hastily formed, ill-conceived missions that lack clear objectives," Letourneau said.

The members of the airborne regiment responsible for the torture killing of Shidane Arone, a Somali teenager, were prosecuted; a private was convicted of manslaughter, and a sergeant attempted suicide before facing trial. Letourneau said today that it was unlikely that any further charges would be filed in connection with peacekeepers' deeds.

Canada is among several countries whose peacekeeping troops are suspected of abusing the people they were sent to assist as part of a multinational force sent to war-torn, famine-ravaged Somalia. Italy and Belgium are in the early stages of inquiries into the conduct of their peacekeepers.

It is unclear how much weight defense officials will give to today's report. The commission has been at odds with the government of Prime Minister Jean Chretien since its investigation contributed last year to the resignations of Canada's chief of defense staff and a defense minister.

Eggleton said the commission's recommendations will be reviewed, but added that most "are already being addressed."


© Copyright 1997 The Washington Post Company

[Switch84]

:smoke: Fuck, I remember that Canadian Somalia torture scandal! The thing that surprised me was the fact that they were Canadian. Truly! Come ON, we all think of Canada as 'soft', ok? The image of the easy going friendly Canuck was pretty much scandalized by that incident.

I don't think that unit should've been disbanded, though. An adjustment in the training should've been implemented. Our own 'killer squads' have done some skanky shit, too, but I wouldn't advocate disbanding the Green Berets or the Navy Seals for chrissakes!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Switch84
:smoke: Fuck, I remember that Canadian Somalia torture scandal! The thing that surprised me was the fact that they were Canadian. Truly! Come ON, we all think of Canada as 'soft', ok? The image of the easy going friendly Canuck was pretty much scandalized by that incident.

I don't think that unit should've been disbanded, though. An adjustment in the training should've been implemented. Our own 'killer squads' have done some skanky shit, too, but I wouldn't advocate disbanding the Green Berets or the Navy Seals for chrissakes!

The Canadian Army (or "Landforces") actually has a reputation of being ruthless. They didn't like taking prisoners either in WWII.

[Mezro]

To all the brave Marines in Iraq: shoot, shoot, shoot, fucking shoot, shoot and shoot some fucking more.

Mezro...but please remember: the NBC camera crew is your friend...yeah right...

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The Canadian Army (or "Landforces") actually has a reputation of being ruthless. They didn't like taking prisoners either in WWII.


:eek: Whoa, I didn't know that, Nikki! Maybe the "Peace-loving Canuck" is just a facade?

Thanks for that tidbit of info!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Switch84
:eek: Whoa, I didn't know that, Nikki! Maybe the "Peace-loving Canuck" is just a facade?

Thanks for that tidbit of info!

Ever watch hockey?

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Ever watch hockey?


:D :D Not this year, unfortunately. LMAO! I expect them to be ruthless on the ice. That's the appeal of the sport in the first place!

LMMFAOBT!

[Angel]

I know the Somalia story only too well. Saw it coming from a mile away. Not long before those boys were sent off, I was working for a Jazz Society. We had to kick some of those boys out of the venue. We had Mahlathini and the Mahotella Queens from Soweto, South Africa as one of the artists, and those fuckers were yelling about how they were going to Somalia, and they were going to kill some n**** ass over there.

I got a black eye in the process of assisting security. When the news story came out, I recognized the main fucker from the show.

Drank some beer with one of them once too, scary fucker ate the fucking glass after he drank his beer! Totally fucking wacko, I'm telling you.

Yes, they were disbanded, however a new special force was created to replace them, I can't recall the name off hand.

I'd have to see some documentation to back up your statements regarding WWII, though, I've never heard anything on these, however, we WERE NOT peace keepers at that time.

Switch, the peacekeeping came into effect after WWII. I believe it coincided with Lester B. Pearson's term in the UN, but I can't recall exactly.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Ever watch hockey?

Shit, you think hockey's violent???? Check out our national sport, lacrosse sometime.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Angel
Shit, you think hockey's violent???? Check out our national sport, lacrosse sometime.

I played it-against Indian schools around Buffalo.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I played it-against Indian schools around Buffalo.

I'm guessing you mean Native American, up here, Indian now means someone from India! ;)

Nasty sport, aint it?

[Switch84]

:eek: Damn, Angel! Those soldiers sound like some of the Marines I've dated! LMAO!

Some military folk are scary, and should be kept on a short leash (or strong meds.) Sometimes I wonder if the psych evaluations on these folks made them desireable for these 'special forces'?

If you have a low regard for human life, it'll be easier to take it. That'll make them the perfect killing machines.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
I'm guessing you mean Native American, up here, Indian now means someone from India! ;)



In the Roth Army, Angel means CUNT. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Angel
I'm guessing you mean Native American, up here, Indian now means someone from India! ;)

Nasty sport, aint it?

Are there Native "Americans" in Canada.

[WACF]

The Canadian Airborne Regiment was done a disservice by being disbanded.
The Regiment had a couple of it's Comandos(companys of 250 men) taken to help fill out the regular force in the former Yugoslovia.
What was left were the ones not fit to be sent over...their comanding officer even stated so....and was removed. They were not ready!

Here is even another thought...the CAR was trained to be ruthless...the Rangers and Pathfinders are the first ones in...they prepare the battlefield for the regualr infantry. These are not peacekeeping troops!

They were disbanded for purly political reasons.
It made the public happy...plus at the time the military was trying to save money...Paratroopers are expensive!

They disbanded and 3 Regiments each recieved a company of Paras...which saw action in Afgahnistan with the PPCLI...you will notice most of the soldiers killed accident or by mines or suicide bomber were Paras.

[WACF]

Candians in WWII did in fact take prisoners.

There were times that they did not...for example on D-Day some captured Canadians were lined up and shot by an SS unit.
The Canadians ceased to take prisoners from that unit...to make a point...and eye for an eye.

Their reputation preceded them in Dieppe...the units involved in the deadly bloody raid years prior were given the task to take it...the Germans left their posts before the Canadians showed up.

[WACF]

Dug this up......

Example - the "Greatest Generation" in WW2 as it really happened. Material from Ellis' "The Sharp End" -

"In World War II, especially in western Europe and the Far East, it soon became apparent that every yard of ground would have to be torn from the enemy and only killing as many men as possible would enable one to do this. Combat was reduced to its absolute essentials, kill or be killed...Newcomers to the line might display a vague compunction, as the American private who told an interviewer, 'I'll tell you a man sure feels funny inside the first time he squeezes down on a Kraut.' This was soon dissipated, however, and the ruthless logic of the situation buried any vestige of moral scruple...This attitude was particularly evident in the treatment of prisoners and it seems clear that any German who surrendered, unless en masse, had at best a fifty-fifty chance of not being killed on the spot. During the Battle of El Alamein, Sergeant Carnduff (5th Seaforth Highlanders) was approached by a soldier in his company who said 'Sergeant, I think you're passing trenches with folk in them. I asked him how he made that out and he said Well I'm positive something moved in the last slit we went by. So we went back and found a slit, and there you could see a man in the bottom of it with his head under a blanket. You could just see him and no more, but you made out that the blanket was shaking a wee bit. We hunted about on that line and found eight more, all the same. Well, the boys had been moaning about having to carry the big anti-tank grenades. So we got rid of them.'...Nor did the circumstances of most German surrenders engender much respect of the Geneva Convention: 'This was more the usual pattern: snipers would pick off two, three or four men of an advancing platoon, then as they came to close quarters, stand up and surrender. The men whose friends had just been shot by him did not always feel inclined to let the killing stop at that point. Canadians stated When the Jerries come in with their hands up, shouting "Kamerad", we just bowl them over with bursts of Sten fire. A witness from the 15 Scottish said But any German who tries to surrender nowadays is a brave man; we just shoot them there and then with their hands up. L. Uppington of 1 Worcesters...None of this "Hande hoch" business; see the enemy, and let loose with Spandau, Bren, Sten or Schmeisser; get in first, no matter if the other fellow is a sitting duck or not.' Yet all such behavior has to be attributed to the ferocity of prolonged combat rather than a generalized hatred of the Germans."

[Angel]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
In the Roth Army, Angel means CUNT. :gulp:

NO, it means COLONEL BITCH! ;)

[Angel]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Are there Native "Americans" in Canada.

Of course there are - I believe the preferred term is Aboriginals. The Native American does apply though, because the border doesn't apply to those with native status.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by WACF
Dug this up......

Example - the "Greatest Generation" in WW2 as it really happened. Material from Ellis' "The Sharp End" -

"In World War II...Yet all such behavior has to be attributed to the ferocity of prolonged combat rather than a generalized hatred of the Germans."

Steven Ambrose said as much in "Citizen Soldiers."