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ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 09:49 AM
No Way Out?

Iraq can’t defend itself if U.S. troops leave. That’s why no one should believe White House promises to bring the soldiers home soon

By Christopher Dickey
Paris Bureau Chief, Middle East Regional Editor, Newsweek
Updated: 5:11 p.m. ET Nov. 18, 2004

Nov. 18 - Lame-duck Secretary of State Colin Powell can expect a pretty cool reception when he shows up on the warm shores of the Red Sea next week for a conference of Iraq’s neighbors. “Why don’t we just call the whole thing off?” suggests a member of one Gulf Arab delegation. There are hard questions to be addressed, and every party there is vitally concerned with stabilizing the region. But Powell is hardly the guy to give credible answers these days. “What’s he going to do?” asks Mr. Gulf, “Serve coffee?”

The U.S.-anointed Iraqi government will be meeting in Sharm al-Sheikh, Egypt, with every country on Iraq’s borders, and the G8 club of the world’s most industrialized countries will be providing its patronage. But Powell can’t give them a convincing answer to the most important question on most of their minds: does the United States ever intend to leave Iraq? And, if so, when? How?

You might think you’ve heard the answer. On the eve of the U.S. elections, Powell himself categorically denied stories that the Pentagon is building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq. “Our goal is to assist the Iraqi people to have elections, to write a constitution, to put in place a fully legitimate government that rests on that constitution … and then to bring our troops out,” he told Egyptian television. President George W. Bush hit the same note in his acceptance speech, after winning re-election: “We will help the emerging democracies of Iraq and Afghanistan—[applause]—so they can grow in strength and defend their freedom. And then our servicemen and women will come home with the honor they have earned.”

But there’s nothing on the drawing boards, in fact, to suggest Iraq can defend its freedom if our servicemen and women come home. Not now, not next year, and possibly not for generations to come. Ever since the old Iraqi Army was dissolved by the Americans last year, the country has been dependent on the United States for its national defense.

Some influential Iraqis think that’s just fine, especially after all the wars that Saddam Hussein’s enormous military dragged them into over the last 25 years. They argue that this is the moment to sort out the nation’s internal affairs, and if the United States provides a protective umbrella, so much the better. “If our guests [the Americans] want to build 14 permanent bases, we might as well make use of that,” says Mowaffak al-Rubaie, the Iraqi national-security adviser whose proposal for pacifying the country by breaking it into a loose federation was the subject of last week’s column, “A Make or Break Plan for Iraq.” Michael Eisenstadt, from the influential Washington Institute for Near East Policy, argues in a recent study that Iraq should just forget about being able to defend itself against Iran. “For the foreseeable future, it will fall to the United States to counter Tehran’s capabilities,” he says.

Everything about the way the Pentagon is organizing Iraq’s security forces shows that the administration shares that view. According to the numbers Eisenstadt has culled from piles of contradictory data issued in recent months, there are now about 101,000 more-or-less trained members of the Iraqi internal security apparatus: the National Guard, the police, border guards, the highway patrol, pipeline protection units, dignitary protection units, some SWAT teams and a couple of special-ops brigades. Plans are to double those numbers in the next year or so.

But the forces that might provide defense or deterrence against Iraq’s foreign enemies are negligible. “The regular Iraqi Army has 4,507 troops,” writes Eisenstadt in the first in a two-part series addressing the challenges facing the Iraqi security forces. By the end of next year it may have 27,000, and eventually perhaps 50,000. That is, about one tenth the size of Iran’s military, and less than half the size of Israel’s.

The Iraqi Air Force—the key to any modern military establishment—is even more pitiful. It “consists of 167 personnel, with plans for 502,” says Eisenstadt. You got it: that’s people, not planes. Right now the Iraqi Air Force has just two two-seater reconnaissance aircraft and eventually might get 16. It’s got two C-130 transports, and might someday have a larger transport squadron. It has six Vietnam-era Huey helicopters, with 10 more on the way. No fighters. No bombers. Any banana republic has better air power.

“It’s clear the [American] intention has been to establish a protectorate,” says W. Patrick Lang, formerly one of the Defense Intelligence Agency’s top experts on the Middle East. A military like the one being organized in Iraq can’t threaten its neighbors, to be sure, but it can’t defend itself either—not even internally. The record in Fallujah makes that sadly apparent. The few thousand Iraqi government troops deployed there took a back seat while the Americans did all of the bombing, of course. And that will continue to be the case. The Americans also did most of the dying. At last count, eight Iraqi soldiers were killed in the same fighting that cost 51 Americans their lives.

So it’s no wonder that many Iraqis—including the majority of the insurgents, who still see themselves as fighting foreign invaders—simply don’t believe the American administration’s spin about pulling out of Iraq sometime soon. Iraq’s neighbors don’t believe that either. And neither should anyone else.


© 2004 Newsweek, Inc.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6524206/site/newsweek/

Yeah, but we won't need a draft though. Maybe gw's plan is to just fuck up Iran real good too. That would negate this problem.

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 09:57 AM
Interesting article. It going to cost a lot in terms of "foreign aid" to rebuild the Iraqi Army into a credible force, maybe if Bremer had tried to reconstitute it after we "bought" Iraq, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now.

ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 09:59 AM
It was foolishness to disband the Iraqi Army. 1000s of decently trained and organized people with no money, nothing to do, and terrorist recruiters on every street corner. GREAT FORESIGHT!

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
It was foolishness to disband the Iraqi Army. 1000s of decently trained and organized people with no money, nothing to do, and terrorist recruiters on every street corner. GREAT FORESIGHT!

And they know where all the wonderful rocket propelled grenades and artillery shells are located.

ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 10:19 AM
Since they hid them.

FORD
11-19-2004, 10:25 AM
Wasn't it Tesla who said

There's no way out
no way out
of this living Hell.....

Denny
11-19-2004, 10:42 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Interesting article. It going to cost a lot in terms of "foreign aid" to rebuild the Iraqi Army into a credible force, maybe if Bremer had tried to reconstitute it after we "bought" Iraq, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now.

No Foreign aid, you fucked it up, you deal with it.

Denny
11-19-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
It was foolishness to disband the Iraqi Army. 1000s of decently trained and organized people with no money, nothing to do, and terrorist recruiters on every street corner. GREAT FORESIGHT!

Genius insight or what?????

:confused:

ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 10:55 AM
And I'm sure you have plenty of great ideas to share.

I'd like to take that gay-ass bear of yours and wipe my ass with it.

Denny
11-19-2004, 11:00 AM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
And I'm sure you have plenty of great ideas to share.

I'd like to take that gay-ass bear of yours and wipe my ass with it.

Not my FUCKING problem!!!!

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by Denny
Not my FUCKING problem!!!!


Why don't you SHUT THE FUCK UP panda-sodomizer!:rolleyes:

Big Train
11-19-2004, 01:03 PM
On this issue, I am willing to agree with you guys, Bremer made the wrong choice.

It was a 50/50 thing (Imagine the situation he would have on his hands if the army turned on him with full tanks and what not) and he decided to play it safe. Turns out, too safe.

Even though I think your right, I actually agree with the decision. I would have made it. The mistake was in not finding or having something to do for them all immediately. The military should have had first crack at public works projects, as the locals already had family memebers in who were getting military checks anyway.

Making them wait and starve only isolated them.

lucky wilbury
11-19-2004, 01:16 PM
keeping the old iraqi army wasen't going to work. to say they were a rag tag bunch would be an understatment. besides how could you keep an army when you don't know who's in it? most of the iraqis changed out of their uniforms left them on the ground and walked away. iraq was and always will be a gaint ammo dump. no one not even the iraqis know where things are or where they were. as far as iran goes the mullahs have very little support in the population so they won't make a move because their would be another revolt.

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 01:43 PM
I'm aware that the Iraqi Army "melted away," that's always been Bremers excuse. So you get their commanders to muster the troops, take any armor and heavy weapons, and pay them. Funny how a lot of the troops that took off their uniforms came back and protested, as units, demanding back wages.

The arms dump is no excuse! There is no excuse for leaving artillery shells around (the primary contents of roadside IED's)

And the whole argument goes back to the origional thesis that the arrogant neocons (i.e. Rummy and Wolfie) thought they could secure Iraq with 50,000-100,000 troops which directly contradicted what their key Generals told them (i.e. Gen. Shinseki and ret. Gen. Powell) of whom both have been or are being removed by an Administration the rewards only incompetence.

Big Train
11-19-2004, 04:17 PM
Nick, you had me for a second, then you drove right off the rails.

Rummy could "run over" Iraq with 100k troops no problem, and we did.

To "secure" Iraq always figured in the help of the people. Like I said, Bremer should have found them something to do and pay them, but the "securing" was always going to require their help to beat back "insurgents".

FInding the arms would also require Iraqui help. You can't hold the military accountable for what it doesn't know about.

What you can is Bremer not paying them, thereby removing any chance they would WANT to help us and choose to see us as oppressors.

Switch84
11-19-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Big Train

What you have is Bremer not paying them, thereby removing any chance they would WANT to help us and choose to see us as oppressors.

:D Yep, that's the ticket! I sure as fuck wouldn't wanna work for free, especially cleaning up shit someone else fucked up!

We need them to help them, simple as that. Imagine someone coming into your house and taking it over, fucking it up, then expecting you to help them clean it up. I'd be pretty pissed, too!

We dropped the ball on that aspect of the game, Baby!

lucky wilbury
11-19-2004, 06:23 PM
iraq is an ammo dump. hell a few months ago the danes found motor shells with wmd from 91 underneath a road.not even the iraqis had at any point in time any idea of wher etheir stuff was stored before,during or after the war.

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by lucky wilbury
iraq is an ammo dump. hell a few months ago the danes found motor shells with wmd from 91 underneath a road.not even the iraqis had at any point in time any idea of wher etheir stuff was stored before,during or after the war.

Funny how the Iraqis that are our enemies can find bomb making materials, RPG's, & infantry weapons. Maybe just the Iraqis on our side don't know where the weapons are.

lucky wilbury
11-19-2004, 09:47 PM
the weapons are everywhere. schools, mosques, for sale in market places. shit saddam gave out weapons to practically everyone before we got there.saddam fedyeen created stockpil;es of weapons and explosives and buried them as well. even here in the states there are unaccounted weapons. shit a few moths ago they "lost" an amoured humvee up here. it was later found miles and miles away from where it should have been

Denny
11-19-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by lucky wilbury
the weapons are everywhere. schools, mosques, for sale in market places. shit saddam gave out weapons to practically everyone before we got there. even here in the states there are unaccounted weapons. shit a few moths ago they "lost" an amoured humvee. it was later found miles and miles away from where it should have been

I work as a Safety Officer in a Factory and I can honestly say that IRAQ was alot more safer when Saddam was in charge there :)

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by Denny
I work as a Safety Officer in a Factory and I can honestly say that IRAQ was alot more safer when Saddam was in charge there :)

Do you drink at work "safety officer?"