Congress Funds Mandatory Psychological Tests for Kids

[Pink Spider]

Dave Eberhart, NewsMax.com
Tuesday, Nov. 23, 2004

http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/11/22/215244.shtml

One of the nation's leading medical groups, the Association of American Physicians & Surgeons (AAPS), decried a move by the U.S. Senate to join with the House in funding a federal program AAPS says will lead to mandatory psychological testing of every child in America – without the consent of parents.
When the Senate considered an omnibus appropriations bill last week that included funding for grants to implement universal mental health screening for almost 60 million children, pregnant women and adults through schools and pre-schools, it approved $20 million of the $44 million sought, Kathryn Serkes, public affairs counsel for AAPS, told NewsMax.

This $20 million matches a like amount already approved by the House, Serkes advised.

While the funding cut of some $24 million was a little good news, suggested Serkes, whose organization has zealously opposed the the measure, she said the organization was most worried about the failure of Congress to include “parental consent” language sought by the AAPS.


Last September, AAPS lifetime member Rep. Ron Paul, M.D., R-Texas, tried to stop the plan in its tracks by offering an amendment to the Labor, HHS, and Education Appropriations Act for FY 2005. The amendment received 95 “yes” votes, but it failed to pass.

According to Serkes, Paul is now mulling offering stand-alone legislation in the next session to once again try and get a provision for parental consent.

The federal bill on its face does not require mandatory mental health testing to be imposed upon states or local schools, explained Serkes.

However, the HHS appropriations bill contains block grant money that will likely be used – as is often the case with block funding – by the various states to implement mandatory psychological testing programs for all students in the school system.


The spending bill has its roots in the recommendations of the New Freedom Commission on Mental Health, created by President Bush in 2002 to propose ways of eliminating waste and improve efficiency and effectiveness of the mental health care delivery system.

Although the report does not specifically recommend screening all students, it does suggest that “schools are in a key position to identify the mental health problems early and to provide a link to appropriate services.”

The bottom line, explained Serkes, is that a state receiving money under this appropriation will likely make its mental testing of kids mandatory – and not be out of synch with the federal enactment.

The other telling point, said Serkes, is that although the relatively minimal funding at this point is certainly not enough to fund mandatory mental testing for kids countrywide, it’s an ominous start:

“Once it’s established and has funding, a program exhibits the nettlesome property of being self-sustaining – it gets a life of its own. More funding follows.”

Officials of the AAPS decry in the measure what they see as “a dangerous scheme that will heap even more coercive pressure on parents to medicate children with potentially dangerous side effects.”

One of the most “dangerous side effects” from antidepressants commonly prescribed to children is suicide, regarding which AAPS added, “Further, even the government’s own task force has concluded that mental health screening does little to prevent suicide.”

Meanwhile, Rep. Paul says the mental testing scheme is a looming feature of "Big Brother" that if unchecked will push parental rights out of the picture:

“At issue is the fundamental right of parents to decide what medical treatment is appropriate for their children. The notion of federal bureaucrats ordering potentially millions of youngsters to take psychotropic drugs like Ritalin strikes an emotional chord with American parents, who are sick of relinquishing more and more parental control to government.

“Once created, federal programs are nearly impossible to eliminate. Anyone who understands bureaucracies knows they assume more and more power incrementally. A few scattered state programs over time will be replaced by a federal program implemented in a few select cities. Once the limited federal program is accepted, it will be expanded nationwide. Once in place throughout the country, the screening program will become mandatory.

“Soviet communists attempted to paint all opposition to the state as mental illness. It now seems our own federal government wants to create a therapeutic nanny state, beginning with schoolchildren. It’s not hard to imagine a time 20 or 30 years from now when government psychiatrists stigmatize children whose religious, social, or political values do not comport with those of the politically correct, secular state.

“American parents must do everything they can to remain responsible for their children’s well-being. If we allow government to become intimately involved with our children’s minds and bodies, we will have lost the final vestiges of parental authority. Strong families are the last line of defense against an overreaching bureaucratic state.”

[John Ashcroft]

I agree Pinky. Write your Congress people now. This is absurd on every level.

[Viking]

This is the biggest single goddamned atrocity I've ever seen come out of the Cesspool-On-The-Potomac, and I've seen a lot. I hope Ron Paul drives his point home with a goddamned machine gun with some of these arrogant cocksuckers. There ought to be a movement to remove from office every last one of them - Republican or Democrat - that voted for this Orwellian horseshit. Motherfuckers don't deserve American citizenship, much less police protection.

Well, kiddies, I think we just found an outrage that crosses ideological lines in this joint.

[Nickdfresh]

OMG, I agree with Ashcroft and Viking for once. SOME of these hacks pretending to be psychologists in schools often times have no business making decisions so lasting and critical in a childs life. I've met a couple of them that fucking need counseling of their own!

[Viking]

Listen, I was a psych major during my freshman year of college, back in '81. I'm telling you the psych and sociology professors were whacked. I mean, gone. I realized that you have to have more mental problems that your patients do, so I switched majors after two semesters.

[Big Train]

I'd agree with the idea that kids ought to have counseling available (thereby funded by the federal government), should there be a situation that warrants it. I'm not so sure that "manadatory" is the way to go. By that criteria, half of the inner city kids would fail as having "trouble signs" in their backgrounds (i.e. parents in jail) etc. If a child is showing signs of stress or patterns of violence and NEEDS the help, no problem. Blanket testing doesn't solve any problem and the kids who need those resources will end up just another face in the crowd, while Billions are wasted on kids who don't need or want it.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Viking
Listen, I was a psych major during my freshman year of college, back in '81. I'm telling you the psych and sociology professors were whacked. I mean, gone. I realized that you have to have more mental problems that your patients do, so I switched majors after two semesters.

You could make a credible argument that a lot, certainly not all or even a majority, of psychologists go into the field to "self-diagnose" their own "problems." While that doesn't mean everything that they may do should be discounted, it does make you wonder about which ones are on the level.

[John Ashcroft]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Psychologists are some of the most fucked-up people on the planet.

The damage they can do is astounding. Think about it. By the time you find yourself at the point of seeking the counsel of such "experts", you've come to the point where decision making is not something you can't handle by yourself. So you rely on such counsel to help you through the decision making process. What if they're shitty at their job??? What if you get the Psy-school flunkie??? Even worse, what is such counsel is pushing a certain political agenda??? Who better to push such agendi on than the desperate?

They ought to be outlawed in my opinion. Too much power, with absolutely no worries of consequence. After all, they're protected by patient-doctor confidentiality.

Scary shit.

[Nickdfresh]

I haven't watched him much, but that Dr. Phil douche really irritates me. He's another pop-psychologist that is making a killing. Yet I find him to be about as genuine as a television preacher.

But I don't agree with what you've said as a generalization. There are some good people in the field that can offer genuine help to someone who needs another perspective. The problem is that their are so many assholes that went into it because they want to "cure" themselves and not really help other people. And others went into it for prestige and money, like so many hack lawyers!

Have you ever dated a girl who is a psyche major? Don't ever date a girl who is a psyche major!

[Warham]

I agree with all of you on this one.

Mandatory testing is a very disturbing prospect.

[John Ashcroft]

Dude, I know there are good Psychologists in the profession, but they seem to be hard to find. And the stakes are simply too high.

I've had a couple of beers tonight, and am probably about to be a little too "vocal"... But I've seen the havoc they raise first hand.

For instance, my wife recently went to see a psychologist to discuss her strained relationship with her mother. I gave her my support because I knew it was something that was bothering her deeply. After the first week, I had some reservations... Such reservations were due to the fact that her psychologist gave her a list of recommended reading. Every single book was from a feminist author, to include Gloria Steinham. I told my wife that I didn't really understand the reading list, and that it appeared to have an agenda. Well, to make a long story short, within the next few weeks her "counselor" had her convinced that she needed a divorce. And joint marriage counseling was never even suggested (I know, I asked my wife about it). Needless to say, I'm going to be divorced within the next week. My wife is thoroughly convinced that this is the right path (despite the fact that we have a 4 and 6 year old), because her counselor convinced her that she deserved her version of happiness. I'm beside myself. But my wife is convinced. The trouble is, she can't answer simple questions like "what is it that will make you happy?" And "What is it that makes you unhappy?". No answers. She doesn't know. All she knows is that she feels unfulfilled, and her psychologist convinced her that she needed to make a "life-change". And that "change" consisted exclusively of ridding her life of her children's father. "Children be damned!". Needless to say, I'm quite pissed.

So, I'm seeing the damage first hand here. It's a helpless feeling that I hope none of you ever have to endure. Her fucking psychologist is a flaming feminist who's pursued her agenda by destroying yet another household. And you know what? There's not a fucking thing I can do about it. My lawyer told me so. No complaints, no accountability. Because it all comes down to "confidentiality". This "psychologist" is merely exempt from responsibility for her actions. (Don't get me wrong, my wife shares plenty of blame here, but she was certainly pushed by this "counselor". There's alot to the story that no one want's to hear, but it has to do with my wife and her family, not my wife and I).

Anyway, my children are all I have left now. If a fucking kook psychologist is forced upon my children, I don't know what I'll do. I will certainly pull them from the public school system. That's for sure.

[Nickdfresh]

That's terrible, I am very sorry to hear that. For anyone to advocate such change is an asshole.

Meanwhile the "psychologist" is probably the most unhappy person of them all. Give a screwed up person unquestioned credibility and you can have a disaster.

I taught school, and was laid off due to budget cuts, and the fucktard school psychologist (of whom it was universally agreed was a waste of space, oxygen, and clothes, and I mean I never heard one person with the exception of his little guidance counselor crony say a good thing about him) made over $100k a year doing essentially nothing except for pretending to give presentations and enabling kids to be juvenile delinquents. Nobody sent problem kids to him because they got worse.

But hey! He had a Ph. D, so I guess he mattered.

[John Ashcroft]

Thanks dude.

Yeah, I don't understand why our system puts any credence in these friggin quacks, but I know there's an entire industry built on it. And that's certainly the answer. All I'm asking for is a bit of accountability. Almost every other fucking profession in the world has some measure of accountability! But not psychology. It's amazing. I have offered to go to any court in the land to plead my case as a caring husband and father. I've asked if I can contest the very divorce itself! I was told repetitively that it simply doesn't matter. And that I couldn't even contest the divorce. It would be granted regardless. Regardless of the damage it inflicted on my children. Regardless of the truth.

Yep, some "profession" huh? The damage they create is staggering. For every person like me, there's the even worse situation where another "psychologist" convinced a child (and the state) that their father was molesting them. It's like a war. It's weird. Why are they trying to destroy the fabric of our society like this? I truly don't understand.

[freak]

So. We are proposing to subject kids to examinations by practitioners of a junk, wannabe science practiced by medical school wash-outs?

That is the singlemost stupid thing to come out of Congress in years.

[Nickdfresh]

I'm with you on that one. My sister can tell you all about lawyers and psychologist. But she did get help from a good therapist. But they can be tough to find.

[Seshmeister]

Question 1) Ink Blot Test - What do you see? :)

[BigBadBrian]

This sounds like HillaryCare. :gulp:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
her psychologist gave her a list of recommended reading. Every single book was from a feminist author, to include Gloria Steinham. I told my wife that I didn't really understand the reading list, and that it appeared to have an agenda. Well, to make a long story short, within the next few weeks her "counselor" had her convinced that she needed a divorce.

JA, whenever you call me a lib, make sure you know I don't want anything to do with the war being fought on this front. It makes me sick to think that things like this happen to families. Children. I can understand why you hate real libs so much. When I started to learn about feminism and their agendas, it was a real eye opener.

My boss is a man-hating bitch. Luckily I can get away from her. I'm doing everything I can to.

damn dude.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Thanks dude.

Yeah, I don't understand why our system puts any credence in these friggin quacks, but I know there's an entire industry built on it. And that's certainly the answer. All I'm asking for is a bit of accountability. Almost every other fucking profession in the world has some measure of accountability! But not psychology. It's amazing. I have offered to go to any court in the land to plead my case as a caring husband and father. I've asked if I can contest the very divorce itself! I was told repetitively that it simply doesn't matter. And that I couldn't even contest the divorce. It would be granted regardless. Regardless of the damage it inflicted on my children. Regardless of the truth.

Yep, some "profession" huh? The damage they create is staggering. For every person like me, there's the even worse situation where another "psychologist" convinced a child (and the state) that their father was molesting them. It's like a war. It's weird. Why are they trying to destroy the fabric of our society like this? I truly don't understand.

Hang in there, dude. Fight the divorce and prolong it if possible. Maybe your wife will come to her senses. I'd file for full custody of the kids also. That'd get her attention.

:gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
This sounds like HillaryCare. :gulp:

No, it's StalinCare. The long range intent of the BCE with this mandatory screening comes right out of old Joe's playbook. :(

[Big Train]

JA, I am very sorry to hear about the divorce. I offer my full support, as I am sure everyone on this board does as well.

The bottom line with physch types (I had some experience with one in college, which actually helped me to think on my own, after realizing he does nothing) is this : Anyone who cannot quantify what they do, does not do "work" or have a "job". It is a strange, unaccountable "activity" masquerading as "work". People in these situations tend to abuse their power as they know in their core they have no useful purpose.

I sympathize with you JA...rant to your heart's content.

[Seshmeister]

JA sorry to hear that.

My advice would be to play the severest hardball you can think of.

At the moment your wife will be floating about in some sort of utopian lah lah land where she thinks she's going to be fulfilled as an artists or something.

What you need to do is burst that bubble asap.

Get control of the money.

Don't leave home.

Start dating other women asap.

Be nice to the kids(obviously) but indifferent to her.

The absolute worst thing you can do at the moment is to appear needy by chasing after her.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[lms2]

Wow...

Sorry to hear of your situation John. Prayers going out to you in your difficult time.

There is good and bad in everthing... the field of psychology included. Luck of the draw, or the wealthy I guess.

The government has done so much for our kids already. Don't spank them, don't critize them, don't teach them to pray, don't force them to pledge allegiance to their country, don't let them develop their own ideas regarding the basis of their existence, don't kick them out of school when the only reason they are there is to wreak havoc on others.

So now we need to spend in excess of 40 billion for some quack to look at canned answers to a canned test that is designed to convince people they are doing the right thing seeking help they probably didn't need to begin with?

Save your money, I will tell you for free. Americans are losing it! But, this ain't the answer.

[John Ashcroft]

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate the concern, and you all rock. I hope all of you had a great Thanksgiving (and a great day if Thanksgiving doesn't mean anything to ya). Spent the day with my kids and soon to be ex. Absolutely great day, even if my wife is still a bit screwed up...

[Seshmeister]

I hope everything is as good as it can be at your end Mr A.

Happy TG.

My last post was kind of rushed but there is some wisdom in there somewhere...:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Question 1) Ink Blot Test - What do you see? :)

Reminds me of the HUGE posters/paintings you would see of Sadaam all over the place. Or Stalin for that matter.

Fucking creepy if you ask me.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Seshmeister


Start dating other women asap.


Hey John, I can help out with this! Need me to leave any random answering machine messages? ;)


But John, seriously, there's no way during the whole divorce procedure in court to get her to answer how her relationship with her mother has improved since she started therapy and then how this divorce will help affect that, seeing how this was the reason why she went in the first place?

And can't you just not sign the papers when it comes down to it? I know of a couple of cases where people filed for divorce and the other half didn't sign.

But hell, I say start taking out of the savings account and fight for custody of the children. I mean, hell, she's seeing a head doctor. Can she be trusted around children?

Evil, I know, but I think it'll help with Sesh's bursting bubble approach.

[Warham]

Sorry to hear about your divorce, Ashcroft.

When I first read that, I couldn't believe what I was reading.

Hopefully your wife will come to her senses and realize she's been pushed down the wrong road.

Good luck, and my prayers are with ya!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Reminds me of the HUGE posters/paintings you would see of Sadaam all over the place. Or Stalin for that matter.

Fucking creepy if you ask me.

Hmmm.....I agree for once. :gulp:

[John Ashcroft]

Thanks again everyone.

Well, this has been going on since last February. I now live alone in a rental. Checked on the prospect of contesting the divorce, no joy. You simply can't stop it (at least in Oklahoma). It's very strange. My wife filed under "irreconcilable differences", which of course we do not have. I swear to you, we were best friends right up until she started her sessions. Even during the "controversy" we simply didn't fight. It's the strangest thing I've ever been through. But anyway, lawyer says you can't stop a divorce in our state. I suppose that's because there's a whole industry built around divorce, and the lawyers and judges need to keep the customers coming...

About custody, naturally that was my first inclination. I still believe strongly that my wife's priorities are no longer with my children (for the simple fact that she's willing to destroy everything they've known in search of her own "happiness"). But, she's actually a wonderful mother. And I consider myself a pretty good dad. Together I believe we made one hell of a parenting team. My kids were some of the happiest children I've ever seen. Healthy, smart, doing great in school and preschool. But anyway, since my wife's not a druggie or abusive I simply don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of getting custody. I've hired the best lawyer in the state (fuckin' $14,000 retainer for Christ's sakes!), and she says "no chance". The legal system is just plain biased against fathers. It's that simple. Given the draw my wife and I have when it comes to parenting, she wins by default.

However, I did play a bit of hardball with her, and to stay out of court she's agreed to give me my house back and a split-custody arrangement with the kids (50/50 time). Given the circumstances, it's a better deal than I could get if I went to court. Guys, there's a bit more to the story that I'm not sharing (in regards to the little ms.), so I've got a few cards in my deck and I'm doing pretty well (other than being a zombie who hasn't slept more than a few hours per night for the last 9 months). But, I'll be officially divorced regardless of my wishes, next week. I'll be moving back into the house I've built around February, and more importantly I'll be more than an "every-other weekend" dad. Can't really think of dating just yet Sesh, although I'd love to do it just to see if she understands the choice she's made. I'm just not interested in anyone really. I suppose it's due to the fact that I've been faithfully married for 12 years, and literally grew up with my wife. I've become everything I am with her. I really don't know how to be anyone else. I guess I better figure the shit out soon, huh? (Ally, maybe you can help here... :D )

But, to the topic at hand, yes her psychologist really did me in. I can't even bring her to court because of confidentiality. Even though my wife admitted fully that "through counselling she's decided she needs to make a change in her life". That change meant breaking her family because a fucking femi-nazi psychologist told her things would be better that way. Children, commitment and responsibilities be damned! She actually told my wife that "people get divorced all the time, and the children do just fine". Can you believe it??? So, I can state very clearly that no psychologist ever better wander withing 20 ft of my children. I've never been so serious about anything in my life. If our school ever makes testing and counselling mandatory, I'll definitely pull my children from public school.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Hmmm.....I agree for once. :gulp:

Stop the presses!:D

[Ally_Kat]

John, I can't think of anything to say and that makes me feel bad :(

I'm always on AIM, so if ya need someone to joke around with, I'm here.

[lucky wilbury]

here a hardball tip for you JA: check into the doctors background and see if there are any complaints that have been filed againest her and what their for. if the doctor has a history of complaints and they focus on the manipulation of pantients in her care you can use that to sue the doctor for malpractice AND you can use it in court to gain custody of your kids by showing that your soon to be ex is unstable and is easly manipulated.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Can't really think of dating just yet Sesh, although I'd love to do it just to see if she understands the choice she's made. I'm just not interested in anyone really. I suppose it's due to the fact that I've been faithfully married for 12 years, and literally grew up with my wife. I've become everything I am with her. I really don't know how to be anyone else. I guess I better figure the shit out soon, huh? (Ally, maybe you can help here... :D )


I didn't realise you were so far down the road with this. I saw it as a bluff and to play the jealousy card. Much as I think counsellers are full of shit there is some truth in the fact that you can view a divorce situation the same as the 5/7/9 stages of grief.

I've watched people enough to see there is truth in it.

Shock
Denial
Bargaining
Fear
Anger
Despair and finally Acceptance.

To be honest people going through anger are actually more fun to talk to than the other stages.

Sounds like you're making the best out of a bad situation which is really all you can do. No point in screwing your life up over it.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by lucky wilbury
here a hardball tip for you JA: check into the doctors background and see if there are any complaints that have been filed againest her and what their for. if the doctor has a history of complaints and they focus on the manipulation of pantients in her care you can use that to sue the doctor for malpractice AND you can use it in court to gain custody of your kids by showing that your soon to be ex is unstable and is easly manipulated.

Interesting. It'd be worth checking out at least. You never know if maybe your wife went to the female version of Charles Manson.

[Cathedral]

This is some fucked up shit to say the very least. there will never be any testing done on my child unless someone wants lead poisoning, I simply won't have it.
But then again my kid is in private school, so maybe it won't be an issue?

And John, let me get this straight. Your wife went to a psychologist to see about mending her relationship with her mother, and ended up persuing a divorce from you?
How in the fuck did that happen? I don't get that at all.

Maybe you should ask her to at least seek a second opinion and see what a different psychologist has to say about this?

I wouldn't give up without a fight, but i strongly urge you NOT to try and make her jealous with another woman. That gives her a whole lot of advantage, and could screw up the arrangement with the house and joint custody with the kids.
Dude, I have seen many psychologists over the last several years learning to deal with watching my wife die slowly, and once they started drifting off the issue at hand i walk out the damn door.

They start digging into my childhood and asking questions about my father and my mothers past, drinking habits, social habits, emotional incidents...just basically looking for some trigger that set off my inability to cope.
But i always stopped them and asked, "What does this have to do with how i feel about watching the mother of my child die and not being able to help her?"
It's a fucked up situation when people start exploring someone else's brain, especially when they don't know first hand what is really going on.
What i find really disturbing about your situation is that i haven't read anywhere from you that you were a part of any of these sessions.

The diagnosis, and final decision was made without the psychologist ever including you at all?
That is just fucking whacked man, and i feel so badly for you over this.

I would very seriously take a hard look into the past of this so called psychologist because there is a hell of a lot more going on than you apparently know about.
I know i would demand to have a consultation with this psychologist and ask some questions about how she came to the conclusion that your wifes problems with her mother tie in to ripping your family apart.

Every one i have ever seen at one point tried to get me to bring my daughter in, to which i answered immediately "NO WAY".

Damn man, I wish there was something i could do to help you with this because i really don't get where it all ended up at all.

All i can suggest is that you ride the lightning and hope like all hell that she wakes up and understands that she is really hurting the kids by ending the marriage.
Regardless of what that damned psychologist says, breaking up the family is a traumatic experience for the kids, and they do not understand it.

Dude, I'll pray for you, that's all i know to do.

My best to you man, i know this is tough and if you need a friend to vent on just email me and if you want to talk i'll send you my number.

I'm just floored by all of this shit...Be strong man.

[BigBadBrian]

You're a tough cookie, Cat. I know you're going through a lot yourself. Wise words my man.

JA, try to stay strong. Whomever you have a lot of personal confidence in around you, I hope you're relying on that person more than ever now. You can always come here to shoot the breeze with us, but I hope you have some family and friends locally you can rely on. We're pulling for you on this one, buddy. :)

[Seshmeister]

Yeah.

Obviously this is the internet and we're only hearing one side but it seems really fucked up.

As I said in my previous post my idea about playing a jealousy card was before I realised how far down the line this was.

Cat I totally understand where you're coming from in your post. The Seshmistress has been chronically(but not terminally) ill for about five years now. People don't understand that it's not like the movies.

Ill people can be bastards to those closest to them even if they appear to be superbrave to everyone else.

You've been dealt a shitty hand and me to a lesser extent.

You chose God I chose Havana Club rum!:)

Take care man.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Warham
I agree with all of you on this one.

Mandatory testing is a very disturbing prospect.


:eek: This is some scary shit! I'm even more concerned for my nieces and nephews now after reading this thread.


Wow! We're ALL AGREEING ON SOMETHING!!!!!


KEWL!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Yeah.

Obviously this is the internet and we're only hearing one side but it seems really fucked up.

As I said in my previous post my idea about playing a jealousy card was before I realised how far down the line this was.

Cat I totally understand where you're coming from in your post. The Seshmistress has been chronically(but not terminally) ill for about five years now. People don't understand that it's not like the movies.

Ill people can be bastards to those closest to them even if they appear to be superbrave to everyone else.

You've been dealt a shitty hand and me to a lesser extent.

You chose God I chose Havana Club rum!:)

Take care man.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Sesh, i was not aware of your wife's illness and i wish you the best in the outcome. We don't choose our battles in some cases, but we can carry on and learn to cope even if it doesn't come naturally.

I let out just a little more than i really wanted to in a forum such as this, but to express my opinion i had to open up a tad.
It usually comes back to haunt me, but opinions and mean sprited people don't get me down.
All of the people i know here, and respect, are fighters. It is in our nature and it shows in our posts.

Even though things can get pretty tough on us from time to time. I have learned first hand that no matter how bad someone has it, there is always someone who has it worse.

Life is a gift, and we only get one...the rest is up to us regardless of what we believe in or how we feel at any given moment.
We just have to make damn sure that we focus on whats good in life and avoid letting tragedy rob us of great memories and the good times we've had.

[John Ashcroft]

Guys, my heart goes out to you. Cat, you're right of course. I'm extremely greatful that my wife and children are healthy. It certainly could be worse. Cat, I know you've been through the ringer, and even though we're "strangers" in one sense of the word, I find it amazing that we all may know a bit about eachother that many don't. Simply by the nature of this place. I think it's kind of cool really, and it's refreshing to get a different perspective on any given issue or situation. It's quite clear I enjoy this place, and the people who converse here. In fact, something struck me when OD said he understood why I hate liberals. I simply don't hate anybody. I disagree with the liberal ideology, but enjoy debating it with them. I know we throw around alot of "fuck you's" and "dumb-asses" when arguing a point, but I see it more as a ribbing rather than hate. I think the guys who've argued with me for the last few years understand this, right? I've got a bunch of liberal friends, both military and civilian. We don't agree on anything political, but we camp together, ski together, shoot the shit, drink beers, etc. etc. Good people for sure (albeit misguided :D ). You've got to understand this. I wish more would. Throughout the time I've been posting around here (and at Von's site), we'd get visitors from places like the D.U. And they'd hate any other perspective (and the people offering it). But I've found they abandon ship when they realize that, for instance, I may call Pinky a "Dumb Commie Bitch" in one thread, then ask her "how she's been" in another (or ask for nekkid pics...). I think the ones who are just a bit too ate-up with politics don't know what to make of this place. It's part of the reason I like Ford so much. Yeah, he's crazier than a shit-house rat for sure :D , but he sticks it through and doesn't take his ball and run home with it. Plus, he's actually got conviction with his beliefs. Of course, that's why we gave him so much shit for turning his support to Kerry... heh heh heh... Pussy!

Anyway, like I've said, I've been holding this since February. About friends, yep, they've been helping me tremendously throughout this ordeal. I guess I just figured there's nothing to hide anymore. The topic of this thread hit a nerve, and I guess it was time to unload. I'm not afraid to give my life's experiences around here. And that's due to the types of things I said above. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I'd love to have a beer (or five) with anyone who posts here. You all are very interesting people. Oh, to answer a couple of questions, yes, I've checked into the possibility of suing the Psychologist. Since my wife still believes in the bullshit she "learned" through her sessions, I don't stand a chance (It'd be entirely different if say my wife came around and would testify with me about the bitch, but she's still convinced that her and her psychologist have got it all figured out). So, it'd be "he said - she said". I've been asking my wife to go to some sort of joint counselling since this all started. She simply won't do it (again, she and her psychologist have figured it all out. What does she need more counselling for?). So, I've just got to bite the bullet. But once the shock wore off, I did start to fight back. That's why I'm getting the split custody and house. (Old J.A. can still negotiate with crazy people... I guess I owe some of you a drink for keeping me in form :D . Who knew it'd come in handy later in life??? :D )

Anyway, I really do appreciate all of your concern. Like I've said, you all rock. Ally, I still want those pics BTW... Now more than ever! :D I really appreciate hearing the stories about the psychology "profession" from you guys. It's validated everything I've suspected about the "profession" for a long time. And yes, it's interesting that my wife went in to discuss her relationship with her mother (had a big blow-out in January), and it turned so quickly into a quest to kick me to the curb. And I can tell you, I was worried from the moment I saw the "recommended reading" list this crazy bitch gave my wife. All feminist bullshit. I should've run for the hills then! I would love to just sit down with her, and bring along my children, and let her see the 4 and 6 year olds who's lives she's just turned upside-down. Let her see first hand the destructive consequences of her "advice". Then I'd like to find a clock tower... Oh, never mind... You didn't just see that... Nothing to see here! ;)

Thanks again everyone.

[Cathedral]

Amen to ya, JA!
But you know, and i'm not sure how things work in your part of the country, but around here Judges can rule that couples seek counseling before granting them a divorce.
And you just hit on something that could, depending on the laws, get you and her in that direction.

You proposed counseling, which in my mind makes you a stand up guy. So make sure that you mention that to anyone who will listen that has the power to let things happen the way her psycho tells her it should.
Hell, put it to her like this, "If our children mean anything to you at all, at least seek another point of view for their sake. why put all your marbles in one bag based on the clinical opinion of one person who could possibly be wrong?"
I think your family and it's emotional future is worth it, what can it hurt?
If she is so confident in what this one psycho says, i don't see the harm in getting a second opinion.

If it is turly what she wants to do, at least you'll know you gave it hell, which i am quite certain you have done this far.

My heart weeps for you man, you are much to good a guy to be treated in this manner.

[Cathedral]

Oh, and one thing that popped into my head just now.
Ask her if she still loves you, her answer will most likely let you know if there is even a glimmer of hope that she'll realize the extent of the manipulation she has bought into.

If she says NO, it will hurt, but at least you'll know where you stand.
If she says Yes, then there is a chance that someday she'll see the error in judgement she has made and begin to mend the relationship.

Just a thought...

[John Ashcroft]

Thanks dude.

Well, in Oklahoma, all that's mandated to get a divorce is a 4-hour "divorced parenting" course. We have what's called "no-fault" divorce laws, where a divorce will be granted so long as one person in the marriage wants it. Unfortunately, legally I can't stop it. I've been trying for the better part of a year. In fact, the reason I'm going to be officially divorced next week is because the machine rolled ahead without me. I've fought the good fight, I'm now relegated to picking up the pieces. Wife simply won't go to joint counselling. I've almost exclusively discussed our children's well being when trying to take some sense into her head. She believes the kids will be fine. Get this, her psychologist has her believing the kids will actually be better off. Because "how can the kids get the attention they need from you if you're unhappy?" I'm not kidding here. She's actually convinced that once she finds "romance" again (BTW, this is what it's all really about), she'll be living on cloud 9 and the kids will be better off. It's kinda like living in the twighlight zone. I can't believe this bullshit is actually still pushed. I may be wrong, but I think her psychologist got her degree on a mail-in program from Oprah. Also, she doesn't love me anymore. She's said so. She cares for me, but doesn't get "that feeling" anymore with me (again, it's all down to the "Pretty Woman" syndrome). It sucks, but it's over. In the morning I can smile and joke (like today), at night I'm a bit more depressed. Just gonna have to figure out how to deal I suppose. My wife actually tells me to go to the doctor for some good drugs! She believes strongly in the psychological profession and their methods, I do not. I will not drug myself into happiness (plus, beer is cheaper... Heh heh .. Just kidding). Anyway, I've tried everything and anything to prevent next week. The deck is stacked against me here. Again, there's an industry built on divorce. I've read up on it a bit. Dissent is simply useless right now. Hopefully as the Conservative movement grows, some common sense and decency will be interjected into the legal system. Till then, there will be thousands more cases like mine.

[Cathedral]

Dude, i'm speechless now..
Just pray that she doesn't expose your kids to something violent when she finds this "romance" she is seeking.

The grass is always greener, until they discover it's actually astroturf.

Let me know if i can help in any way, bro.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
...My wife actually tells me to go to the doctor for some good drugs! She believes strongly in the psychological profession and their methods, I do not. I will not drug myself into happiness (plus, beer is cheaper... Heh heh .. Just kidding). Anyway, I've tried everything and anything to prevent next week. The deck is stacked against me here. Again, there's an industry built on divorce. I've read up on it a bit. Dissent is simply useless right now. Hopefully as the Conservative movement grows, some common sense and decency will be interjected into the legal system. Till then, there will be thousands more cases like mine.

The drugs won't make you happy, stick to beer. You'll just have to mourn the loss of her, it may take several months, even a year. Meanwhile, once everything clears, find yourself a nice college girl!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Meanwhile, once everything clears, find yourself a nice college girl!

Hmm.....a few posts back I'd have to disagree, but in a few months when things start looking up for you in the women department, this here is probably good advice. Since your divorce is inevitable, start dating chicks who will make your ex-wife jealous as hell. You know, the ones she always got pissed at you for looking at. ;)

[aesop]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Thanks dude.

Well, in Oklahoma, all that's mandated to get a divorce is a 4-hour "divorced parenting" course. We have what's called "no-fault" divorce laws, where a divorce will be granted so long as one person in the marriage wants it. Unfortunately, legally I can't stop it. I've been trying for the better part of a year. In fact, the reason I'm going to be officially divorced next week is because the machine rolled ahead without me. I've fought the good fight, I'm now relegated to picking up the pieces. Wife simply won't go to joint counselling. I've almost exclusively discussed our children's well being when trying to take some sense into her head. She believes the kids will be fine. Get this, her psychologist has her believing the kids will actually be better off. Because "how can the kids get the attention they need from you if you're unhappy?" I'm not kidding here. She's actually convinced that once she finds "romance" again (BTW, this is what it's all really about), she'll be living on cloud 9 and the kids will be better off. It's kinda like living in the twighlight zone. I can't believe this bullshit is actually still pushed. I may be wrong, but I think her psychologist got her degree on a mail-in program from Oprah. Also, she doesn't love me anymore. She's said so. She cares for me, but doesn't get "that feeling" anymore with me (again, it's all down to the "Pretty Woman" syndrome). It sucks, but it's over. In the morning I can smile and joke (like today), at night I'm a bit more depressed. Just gonna have to figure out how to deal I suppose. My wife actually tells me to go to the doctor for some good drugs! She believes strongly in the psychological profession and their methods, I do not. I will not drug myself into happiness (plus, beer is cheaper... Heh heh .. Just kidding). Anyway, I've tried everything and anything to prevent next week. The deck is stacked against me here. Again, there's an industry built on divorce. I've read up on it a bit. Dissent is simply useless right now. Hopefully as the Conservative movement grows, some common sense and decency will be interjected into the legal system. Till then, there will be thousands more cases like mine.

Sorry to hear about your situation, John. Hope it works out for 'ya. If she feels that way now, right, wrong, or indifferent, it may be for the best. Therapists suck. Almost as bad as lawyers. Good luck.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Because "how can the kids get the attention they need from you if you're unhappy?" I'm not kidding here. She's actually convinced that once she finds "romance" again (BTW, this is what it's all really about), she'll be living on cloud 9 and the kids will be better off.

And how, with raising a 4 and 6 year old on her own half the time is she going to be able to go out and find romance? Is she going to make up with her mother so that she can watch the kids while Julio wines and dines her?

And what if the kids don't like the new guy, cuz that happens a lot. Life isn't going to be all paradise.

Half my friends come from broken homes. Some of them turned out alright, the rest didn't. I won't tell stories cuz I don't want to upset you worse than you probably are now. But, if this bitch wants to preach to your wife that the kids turns out alright, I have a handful of friends she might want to meet.

And I haven't mentioned it before, but a reading list? WTF?! I thought the reason for paying a shrink was for the shrink to help you. Not to give you homework reading assignments. Hell, I could go to the library and save a couple grand if this is the case.

Besides, Gloria had daddy issues. After her parents got divorced, she was left to take care of her mentally ill mother. I had to watch this program about her in Women in Politics. She blamed everything on her father and how she lost her youth taking care of her mother. Well, wait, where the fuck was her older sister thru all of this? Her sister kinda just up-ed and left her there with the mother. So yeah.

[John Ashcroft]

Yeah, I've seen the effects of plenty of broken homes myself. It scares the shit out of me. It's the single reason why I can't understand why my best friend of almost 13 years is pursuing this path. I simply don't know her anymore it seems. But, the fact of the matter is I will never ever let my children turn into another negative statistic. I will never check out like many parents unfortunately do. I'll be there any and every time they need me. I'm going to have them 50% of the time, and for her 50%... She better damn well be a great mom (like she has been, to be fair) or a world of hurt is going to come down on her (legal, not physical mind you). I've had it written into the decree that no member of the opposite sex can spend the night with the children present. Ever.

This is a fucked-up situation, but I'm gonna do my damndest to make sure my wonderful kids don't suffer. They already are, I can tell you... And it breaks my damn heart. But soon enough I'll be back into their lives as much as possible. And again, I'll be there to make sure mom doesn't do anything fucked up.

[lms2]

never mind.

I hope it all works out for you guys in the end.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
my best friend of almost 13 years

See, that's all you need a wise woman once told me. Romance is all fluff and after the fluff starts to flatten, it's that friendship that's going to hold strong.

But what do I, or that wise woman know. We don't have any PhD or nothing. lol

[Seshmeister]

Gay is the way.

Women are weird...:)

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Gay is the way.

Women are weird...:)

:p LOL! It's you guys' fault!

JA, my heart and prayers go out to you! Right now, the best thing for you may be some alone time. Jumping into another relationship could spell disaster. Rebounding is a bitch!

Give yourself time to deal with the loss of your marriage, then move on. Skipping that process will bring alot of excess baggage into a new relationship.