Economic 'Armageddon' predicted

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Pink Spider
    Sniper
    • Jan 2004
    • 867

    Economic 'Armageddon' predicted

    Boston Herald | November 24 2004



    Stephen Roach, the chief economist at investment banking giant Morgan Stanley, has a public reputation for being bearish.

    But you should hear what he's saying in private.

    Roach met select groups of fund managers downtown last week, including a group at Fidelity.

    His prediction: America has no better than a 10 percent chance of avoiding economic ``armageddon.''

    Press were not allowed into the meetings. But the Herald has obtained a copy of Roach's presentation. A stunned source who was at one meeting said, ``it struck me how extreme he was - much more, it seemed to me, than in public.''

    Roach sees a 30 percent chance of a slump soon and a 60 percent chance that ``we'll muddle through for a while and delay the eventual armageddon.''

    The chance we'll get through OK: one in 10. Maybe.

    In a nutshell, Roach's argument is that America's record trade deficit means the dollar will keep falling. To keep foreigners buying T-bills and prevent a resulting rise in inflation, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan will be forced to raise interest rates further and faster than he wants.

    The result: U.S. consumers, who are in debt up to their eyeballs, will get pounded.

    Less a case of ``Armageddon,'' maybe, than of a ``Perfect Storm.''

    Roach marshalled alarming facts to support his argument.

    To finance its current account deficit with the rest of the world, he said, America has to import $2.6 billion in cash. Every working day.

    That is an amazing 80 percent of the entire world's net savings.

    Sustainable? Hardly.

    Meanwhile, he notes that household debt is at record levels.

    Twenty years ago the total debt of U.S. households was equal to half the size of the economy.

    Today the figure is 85 percent.

    Nearly half of new mortgage borrowing is at flexible interest rates, leaving borrowers much more vulnerable to rate hikes.

    Americans are already spending a record share of disposable income paying their interest bills. And interest rates haven't even risen much yet.

    You don't have to ask a Wall Street economist to know this, of course. Watch people wielding their credit cards this Christmas.

    Roach's analysis isn't entirely new. But recent events give it extra force.

    The dollar is hitting fresh lows against currencies from the yen to the euro.

    Its parachute failed to open over the weekend, when a meeting of the world's top finance ministers produced no promise of concerted intervention.

    It has farther to fall, especially against Asian currencies, analysts agree.

    The Fed chairman was drawn to warn on the dollar, and interest rates, on Friday.

    Roach could not be reached for comment yesterday. A source who heard the presentation concluded that a ``spectacular wave of bankruptcies'' is possible.

    Smart people downtown agree with much of the analysis. It is undeniable that America is living in a ``debt bubble'' of record proportions.

    But they argue there may be an alternative scenario to Roach's. Greenspan might instead deliberately allow the dollar to slump and inflation to rise, whittling away at the value of today's consumer debts in real terms.

    Inflation of 7 percent a year halves ``real'' values in a decade.

    It may be the only way out of the trap.

    Higher interest rates, or higher inflation: Either way, the biggest losers will be long-term lenders at fixed interest rates.

    You wouldn't want to hold 30-year Treasuries, which today yield just 4.83 percent.
  • sambo
    Sniper
    • Jun 2004
    • 912

    #2
    Re: Economic 'Armageddon' predicted

    Originally posted by Pink Spider
    Boston Herald | November 24 2004



    But they argue there may be an alternative scenario to Roach's. Greenspan might instead deliberately allow the dollar to slump and inflation to rise, whittling away at the value of today's consumer debts in real terms.

    Inflation of 7 percent a year halves real'' values in a decade.

    It may be the only way out of the trap.
    That's been done before... Germany, after the war, let inflation spiral upward and it virtually wiped out all debt.
    Go home the Earth is full....

    Comment

    • FORD
      ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

      • Jan 2004
      • 58760

      #3
      Thanks for waiting until AFTER THE ELECTION to mention the economic failures of the BCE, Steve.
      Eat Us And Smile

      Cenk For America 2024!!

      Justice Democrats


      "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

      Comment

      • ELVIS
        Banned
        • Dec 2003
        • 44120

        #4
        This has nothing to do with your makebelieve "BCE"...

        Comment

        • FORD
          ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

          • Jan 2004
          • 58760

          #5
          No, of course not. Record deficits, insane spending, and tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes have no impact on the economy at all. What could I have been thinking?

          Between another Hitler and another Great Depression (or worse) those of you who still have living grandparents might want to take notes on just how shitty of a time we're in for
          Eat Us And Smile

          Cenk For America 2024!!

          Justice Democrats


          "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

          Comment

          • ODShowtime
            ROCKSTAR

            • Jun 2004
            • 5812

            #6
            Originally posted by FORD
            Between another Hitler and another Great Depression (or worse) those of you who still have living grandparents might want to take notes on just how shitty of a time we're in for

            The fun thing would be if the depression makes the people in America so weak that we can't do anything against gw&friends. The stupid amongst us will beg for his help while he cruises in his yacht.
            gnaw on it

            Comment

            • blueturk
              Veteran
              • Jul 2004
              • 1883

              #7
              Dubya had to take geography lessons from Condi Rice,Dick Cheney,and George Schultz when he was elected in 2000.You would think that he might have absorbed some knowledge of foreign affairs from his father,but it's painfully evident that this is not the case.
              Keeping that in mind,do you really expect for Dubya to have any realistic perspective about money?He's coasted through life,pretty much doing as he pleases,and he's taking the same approach with the budget.

              Comment

              • Big Train
                Full Member Status

                • Apr 2004
                • 4011

                #8
                Yadda Yadda Yadda....

                All Bush talk aside (we can talk about that latter), this genius ENTIRELY fails to mention the fact that this a WORLD economy. Meaning that if our levels hit too low, other economies, namely Europe and the Far East will take a huge hit as well. WHY? Cause we buy their goods and services. As the world's largest consumer, if all of that dries up all of a sudden, goodnight yen and Euro.

                This is alarmist nonsense, as is most of this "crisis"....Bullshit...

                Comment

                • blueturk
                  Veteran
                  • Jul 2004
                  • 1883

                  #9
                  The US collected about the same amount of taxes in 2004 as it did in in 1999,but we spent 34 per cent more.The total national debt has risen 30 per cent in the last four years.The 7.384 TRILLION dollar debt limit was breached in October.This is nothing less than a fiscal orgy.Now we are about to bring in thousands of "illegal immigrants" to do "the jobs Americans won't do",whatever that means.I can understand your reluctance to discuss Dubya,but it's obvious that the man doesn't have a clue.

                  Comment

                  • Big Train
                    Full Member Status

                    • Apr 2004
                    • 4011

                    #10
                    I'm not reluctant at all and I appreciate your invitation. I just wanted to make the point that all this alarmist stuff is pure bullshit, by using pure economic sense to disprove it.

                    The situation with the taxes has primarily to do with the war and the trade defecit. We aren't collecting as much in taxes because not enough trade is going on. When goods and services don't move, there is nothing to tax.

                    The war and Homeland security are the newest large burdens on our tax system. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the system or even Dubya's tax policies themselves, it's that we aren't moving enough stuff period. It's just funny to me that people blame bush, "Anybody But Bush" has morphed into "It's Bushes Fault". Yet, whenever discussing money, never a single solitary fucking word about Greenspan, the primary source of our fiscal policy. NOT ONE. There obviously need to be cuts made somewhere.

                    My REAL solution is to make one small change to the way our Congress operates. No adding on to bills. If a bill goes to a vote about road construction in Colorado, it should not have an attachment about schoolbooks in Oklahoma. This is where the "bloat" comes from that makes senators "scratch each other's backs" and generally the only way to get things done across party lines. I don't appreciate that either party does it.

                    Comment

                    • ODShowtime
                      ROCKSTAR

                      • Jun 2004
                      • 5812

                      #11
                      he's a bum too
                      gnaw on it

                      Comment

                      • blueturk
                        Veteran
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 1883

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Big Train
                        I'm not reluctant at all and I appreciate your invitation. I just wanted to make the point that all this alarmist stuff is pure bullshit, by using pure economic sense to disprove it.

                        The situation with the taxes has primarily to do with the war and the trade defecit. We aren't collecting as much in taxes because not enough trade is going on. When goods and services don't move, there is nothing to tax.

                        The war and Homeland security are the newest large burdens on our tax system. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the system or even Dubya's tax policies themselves, it's that we aren't moving enough stuff period. It's just funny to me that people blame bush, "Anybody But Bush" has morphed into "It's Bushes Fault". Yet, whenever discussing money, never a single solitary fucking word about Greenspan, the primary source of our fiscal policy. NOT ONE. There obviously need to be cuts made somewhere.

                        My REAL solution is to make one small change to the way our Congress operates. No adding on to bills. If a bill goes to a vote about road construction in Colorado, it should not have an attachment about schoolbooks in Oklahoma. This is where the "bloat" comes from that makes senators "scratch each other's backs" and generally the only way to get things done across party lines. I don't appreciate that either party does it.
                        The pork that you speak of is only a small part of the problem.Dubya's corporate tax cuts will deprive the government of roughly $100 billion in future revenues,and we all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.Of course,there was that "rebate" check check a while back,and I've talked to people who were ecstatic that they received a check for $300.Give me a fucking break!Dubya's "base" would use a $300 check for toilet paper.These aren't Greenspan's tax cuts,these are Dubya's.Bush is blatantly looking after his own kind,at the expense of the working stiff that will have to pay for this shit in the future.
                        Last edited by blueturk; 11-25-2004, 04:32 PM.

                        Comment

                        • ELVIS
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2003
                          • 44120

                          #13
                          Not true...

                          Comment

                          • Big Train
                            Full Member Status

                            • Apr 2004
                            • 4011

                            #14
                            A very Democratic way to look at the argument. He is trying to stimulate the economy as a whole. What is it we are really arguing here?

                            The plight of the working stiff? That is a different argument.

                            We are in a depression right now that has nothing to do with George Bush. It is the remains of an overheated economy that burst in 2000, before he was there. I NEVER say that it was Bushes fault, or Clinton's, or Bush Sr or Reagan. No one man or administration has that great an effect on the economy. They can make certain things harder or easier, but the economy works under it's own ways. We are in a depression and trying to battle out of it.

                            This statement I didn't know and I'd love to know where you got the following fact :

                            We all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.

                            Why so reluctant to discuss Greenspan?

                            Comment

                            • blueturk
                              Veteran
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 1883

                              #15
                              I'm listening.....

                              Comment

                              Working...