Bush Urges Americans To Give Iraq Soldiers Homecoming Vietnam Vets Didn't Get

[blueturk]

At Camp Pendleton,Dubya kind of admitted that maybe things aren't so great after all,and urged civilians to give Iraq vets the joyous homecoming that Nam vets never received,as if he would fucking know anything about it.Well,since he was home the whole time,he may very well be an authority on the subject.Dubya also made parallels between Iraq and World War II,but that's not even what pissed me off.
He made his speech decked out in a specially tailored Marine tanker jacket,the all-purpose,all-weather jacket for OFFICERS AND ENLISTED MEN.Dubya's jacket even had custom touches like his name and designation as commander-in-chief embroidered across the front.
What the hell right does a draft-dodging frat-boy have to wear this garment? Does running away from your military obligations make you a soldier? Bush wearing that jacket is an insult to Iraq and Vietnam vets alike.

[Warham]

He is the Commander-in-Chief. That's why he's 'allowed' to wear the garment.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by blueturk

what the hell right does a draft-dodging frat-boy have to wear this garment?

First off -- it hasn't been proven that he dodged the draft. In fact, despite what CBS and Danny Boy wanted, all the papers say honorable discharge and hte ones that say otherwise were fakes.

Second off -- He's the commander-in-chief. He's at the top of the military branches. That's what gives him the right. It would be the same if Clinton did it (even though he is a proven draft dodger), Reagan, Carter, Nixon, JFK, FDR, etc., etc.

[ODShowtime]

We do need to support the troops that come home (the ones that make it home). We're gonna have thousands of fucked-up PTSD people running around beating their wives and driving drunk. God help them, you know?

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
First off -- it hasn't been proven that he dodged the draft. In fact, despite what CBS and Danny Boy wanted, all the papers say honorable discharge and hte ones that say otherwise were fakes.

Second off -- He's the commander-in-chief. He's at the top of the military branches. That's what gives him the right. It would be the same if Clinton did it (even though he is a proven draft dodger), Reagan, Carter, Nixon, JFK, FDR, etc., etc.

He just disappeared in 1972 when he was supposed to be reporting to the Guard.And of course,a lot of documents concerning Dubya's service were "inadvertently destroyed" according to the Pentagon.
If Dubya has nothing to hide ,why are news agencies having to file lawsuits to find out anything about this time in Bush's life?
As far as Dan Rather goes,that whole debacle WAS pretty fucking bad.But now when Dubya's "service" is mentioned,the Bushites scream "Dan Rather",forgetting that there ARE a lot of questions remaining about this period that the White House doesn't want to answer.

[Nickdfresh]

Those documents are fakes, but the diseased Texas Air Guard Colonel that supposedly wrote them really did feel that Bush was a rich boy using the service to get out of 'Nam according to his former secretary.

[Big Train]

Just keep beating it to death. People have been trying to make an issue out of it for YEARS now. He was a rich boy who probably got a couple of favors, ok? We have been up and down that road a million times. I still say where is Kerry and his signed 180 form? Now that the election is over WE WILL NEVER know what happened there.

Bush is the commander-in-chief and he was alive during the Vietnam era and as a CITIZEN saw how they were treated. He has every right to mention these topics and share his thoughts. End of Story.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Just keep beating it to death. People have been trying to make an issue out of it for YEARS now. He was a rich boy who probably got a couple of favors, ok? We have been up and down that road a million times. I still say where is Kerry and his signed 180 form? Now that the election is over WE WILL NEVER know what happened there.

Bush is the commander-in-chief and he was alive during the Vietnam era and as a CITIZEN saw how they were treated. He has every right to mention these topics and share his thoughts. End of Story.

True, and our soldiers have the right to tell Donald Rumsfeld what a douchebag he is for helping to get us in our current mess as well!

[Warham]

Where was Bill Clinton during the Vietnam War anyway?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Where was Bill Clinton during the Vietnam War anyway?


Thanks for helping us stay on topic Warham.

[Big Train]

It's valid OD. GW is just giving a speech and Turk is calling his credentials into question about it, which are irrelevant. Why not go even further and discuss other presidents and their rights to speak to crowds of military personnel?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
It's valid OD. GW is just giving a speech and Turk is calling his credentials into question about it, which are irrelevant. Why not go even further and discuss other presidents and their rights to speak to crowds of military personnel?

Presidents have the right to speak to military crowds and be respected. But as far as I'm concerned, they DO NOT have the right to wear military uniforms. No president that I recall from this century has done so except one. The President is a civilian and should dress like one.

Personally, if I were a Marine, I'd find gw's get up in that picture above offensive. That and his flightsuit bullshit is the most shockingly jingoistic crap I've ever seen in this country. I'm ashamed. When gw flew to that carrier was they day I knew something was terribly wrong. I think that might have been the moment I knew gw was definitely full of dog shit.

[Warham]

Why would you find that offensive? The president has been the Commander-in-Chief of the military since ole Georgie was president.

The day that Bill Clinton said he didn't have sex with that women was the day I know that something was terribly wrong. I think that might have been the moment I knew bc was definately full of horse shit.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
It's valid OD. GW is just giving a speech and Turk is calling his credentials into question about it, which are irrelevant. Why not go even further and discuss other presidents and their rights to speak to crowds of military personnel?

As I've stated before, Clinton was against Vietnam and demonstrated against it. He didn't ask any kid to get drafted and take his place in the the infantry while he gleefully and safely patrolled the skies over El Paso against North Vietnamese MIG-21's.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
As I've stated before, Clinton was against Vietnam and demonstrated against it. He didn't ask any kid to get drafted and take his place in the the infantry while he gleefully and safely patrolled the skies over El Paso against North Vietnamese MIG-21's.

Yeah, it's better to demonstrate against Vietnam and leave the country than it is to serve in the National Guard.

I mean, what the hell was GW thinking by actually serving in SOME capacity rather than go over to good ole England. Bastard!

[Big Train]

No, he asked another kid to take his place while he went off to Oxford to smoke weed and bang English birds..

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Thanks for helping us stay on topic Warham.

Considering we're talking about people dodging out of the service, it's a relevant issue. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Presidents have the right to speak to military crowds and be respected. But as far as I'm concerned, they DO NOT have the right to wear military uniforms. No president that I recall from this century has done so except one. The President is a civilian and should dress like one.

Personally, if I were a Marine, I'd find gw's get up in that picture above offensive. That and his flightsuit bullshit is the most shockingly jingoistic crap I've ever seen in this country. I'm ashamed. When gw flew to that carrier was they day I knew something was terribly wrong. I think that might have been the moment I knew gw was definitely full of dog shit.

Hmmm...presidents that wear uniforms and place their likenesses on billboards...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Why would you find that offensive? The president has been the Commander-in-Chief of the military since ole Georgie was president.

Because by donning a uniform, you are saying you are part of an organization. He isn't in the Marines and he did not earn the right to wear their uniform, just like every Marine recruit has to.

You really need to forgive Clinton for banging your old lady or the wounds will never heal. :D

[Warham]

The following is Colonel Eugene Holmes's September 1992 affidavit concerning Bill Clinton and the draft.

Colonel Eugene Holmes is a highly decorated officer of the United States Army. He is a survivor of the Bataan Death March and three and a half years as a POW of the Japanese. He served 32 years in the army before retiring with 100% disability. His decorations include the Silver Star, 2 Bronze Stars, 2 Legions of Merit, the Army Commendation Medal and many others. During the Vietnam War, he personally inducted both his sons into the service--one for 3 years as a regular army enlisted man, and the other as a commissioned officer (after he had completed ROTC training).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There have been many unanswered questions as to the circumstances surrounding Bill Clinton's involvement with the ROTC department at the University of Arkansas. Prior to this time I have not felt the necessity for discussing the details. The reason I have not done so before is that my poor physical health (a consequence of participation in the Battan Death March and the subsequent three and a half years interment in Japanese POW camps) has precluded me from getting into what I felt was unnecessary involvement. However, present polls show that there is the imminent danger to our country of a draft dodger becoming Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States. While it is true, as Mr. Clinton has stated, that there were many others who avoided serving their country in the Vietnam war, they are not aspiring to be the President of the United States.
The tremendous implications of the possibility of his becoming Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces compels me now to comment on the facts concerning Mr. Clinton's evasion of the draft. This account would not have been imperative had Bill Clinton been completely honest with the American public concerning this matter. But as Mr. Clinton replied on a news conference this evening (September 5, 1992) after being asked another particular about his dodging the draft, "Almost everyone concerned with these incidents are dead. I have no more comments to make". Since I may be the only person living who can give a first hand account of what actually transpired, I am obligated by my love for my country and my sense of duty to divulge what actually happened and make it a matter of record.
Bill Clinton came to see me at my home in 1969 to discuss his desire to enroll in the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas. We engaged in an extensive, approximately two (2) hour interview. At no time during this long conversation about his desire to join the program did he inform me of his involvement, participation and actually organizing protests against the United States involvement in South East Asia. He was shrewd enough to realize that had I been aware of his activities, he would not have been accepted into the ROTC program as a potential officer in the United States Army.
The next day I began to receive phone calls regarding Bill Clinton's draft status. I was informed by the draft board that it was of interest to Senator Fullbright's office that Bill Clinton, a Rhodes Scholar, should be admitted to the ROTC program. I received several such calls. The general message conveyed by the draft board to me was that Senator Fullbright's office was putting pressure on them and that they needed my help. I then made the necessary arrangements to enroll Mr. Clinton into the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas.
I was not "saving" him from serving his country, as he erroneously thanked me for in his letter from England (dated December 3, 1969). I was making it possible for a Rhodes Scholar to serve in the military as an officer. In retrospect I see that Mr. Clinton had no intention of following through with his agreement to join the Army ROTC program at the University of Arkansas or to attend the University of Arkansas Law School. I had explained to him the necessity of enrolling at the University of Arkansas as a student in order to be eligible to take the ROTC program at the University. He never enrolled at the University of Arkansas, but instead enrolled at Yale after attending Oxford. I believe that he purposely deceived me, using the possibility of joining the ROTC as a ploy to work with the draft board to delay his induction and get a new draft classification.
The December 3rd letter written to me by Mr. Clinton, and subsequently taken from the files by Lt. Col. Clint Jones, my executive officer, was placed into the ROTC files so that a record would be available in case the applicant should again petition to enter the ROTC program. The information in that letter alone would have restricted Bill Clinton from ever qualifying to be an officer in the United States Military. Even more significant was his lack of veracity in purposefully defrauding the military by deceiving me, both in concealing his anti-military activities overseas and his counterfeit intentions for later military service. These actions cause me to question both his patriotism and his integrity.
When I consider the calabre, the bravery, and the patriotism of the fine young soldiers whose deaths I have witnessed, and others whose funerals I have attended.... When I reflect on not only the willingness but eagerness that so many of them displayed in their earnest desire to defend and serve their country, it is untenable and incomprehensible to me that a man who was not merely unwilling to serve his country, but actually protested against its military, should ever be in the position of Commander-in-Chief of our armed Forces.
I write this declaration not only for the living and future generations, but for those who fought and died for our country. If space and time permitted I would include the names of the ones I knew and fought with, and along with them I would mention my brother Bob, who was killed during World War II and is buried in Cambridge, England (at the age of 23, about the age Bill Clinton was when he was over in England protesting the war).
I have agonized over whether or not to submit this statement to the American people. But, I realize that even though I served my country by being in the military for over 32 years, and having gone through the ordeal of months of combat under the worst of conditions followed by years of imprisonment by the Japanese, it is not enough. I'm writing these comments to let everyone know that I love my country more than I do my own personal security and well-being. I will go to my grave loving these United States of America and the liberty for which so many men have fought and died.
Because of my poor physical condition this will be my final statement. I will make no further comments to any of the media regarding this issue.

Eugene J. Holmes, Colonel, U.S.A., Ret, September 1992

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
No, he asked another kid to take his place while he went off to Oxford to smoke weed and bang English birds..

But he was against the war, and Dubya was all for it!

FORTUNATE SON Lyrics

Some folks are born made to wave the flag,
ooh, they're red, white and blue.
And when the band plays "Hail To The Chief",
oh, they point the cannon at you, Lord,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no senator's son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no,

Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman come to the door,
Lord, the house look a like a rummage sale, yes,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no millionaire's son.
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no.

Yeh, some folks inherit star spangled eyes,
ooh, they send you down to war, Lord,
And when you ask them, how much should we give,
oh, they only answer, more, more, more, yoh,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no military son,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one,

It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate one, no no no,
It ain't me, it ain't me,
I ain't no fortunate son, no no no,

- John C, Fogerty

[Warham]

Clinton never served his country and Dubya did. End of story.

[Warham]

Clinton's Prestigious Military Record:

Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 8, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968
Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969
Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Colonel E. Holmes.
Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment
Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) "registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction"
Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE!
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton.

[Blacklisted]

Originally posted by blueturk
.Dubya also made parallels between Iraq and World War II,but that's not even what pissed me off.


The reason he is making parallels with WW II is because Iraq has been a part of the Axis since WW II. The British had an airbase in Iraq during WW II and the Iraqi's attacked the base which has lead to them being on the Axis since WW II. Check out the RAF website and read about it.

Iraq has been a problem for the Allied forces since then.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Clinton never served his country and Dubya did. End of story.

Well, sort of until he went AWOL and stopped showing up to drills. I once had a grizzled old prick of a Master Sergeant in the reserves, when I once missed a drill (which I made up) he told me that "during Vietnam, we used to send soldiers who missed drills over there!"

I asked him if he ever served in Vietnam and he said no, so I called him a pussy! He got pissed but God he was afucking cunt.

Anyways, when you've got "connections," I guess you could miss whatever you wanted.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Considering we're talking about people dodging out of the service, it's a relevant issue. :gulp:

BBB, we were talking about presidents donning military garb after dodging service. I don't recall seeing Clinton in anything except business suits and jogging suits the entire time he was in office.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Bill_Clinton_White_House_Portrait.jpg

[Warham]

Now I'll agree with that.

Bush got into the Guard because of pops and got out early because of pops, but he didn't flee the country. He served about four out of the six years, and then filed for an honorable discharge and received it after he entered Harvard in 1973.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
It's valid OD. GW is just giving a speech and Turk is calling his credentials into question about it, which are irrelevant. Why not go even further and discuss other presidents and their rights to speak to crowds of military personnel?

How many of those presidents who never served in the military proclaimed themselves a "war president'?

[Big Train]

He is "president" , during a time of "war". How many used that exact verbiage, I don't know, I'm not a scholar. Are you saying he doesn't have the right to make that claim?

[Blacklisted]

Considering the state of the world and the terrorist attacks that have occured it is a time of war.

Clinton was in power during a time of "war" the "War on Drugs". The only difference is those wars were not full out war but small highly tactical missions with little or no collateral damage. Keep in mind during Clinton's time in office the U.S. dropped the most bombs in a single day in their history.

With the war in Yugoslavia/Kosovo.

[Blacklisted]

However that war was NATO and not just the U.S.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Where was Bill Clinton during the Vietnam War anyway?

Legitimately enrolled in college. After he graduated, he signed up for the draft and drew a high number, so he was never drafted.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
BBB, we were talking about presidents donning military garb after dodging service. I don't recall seeing Clinton in anything except business suits and jogging suits the entire time he was in office.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Bill_Clinton_White_House_Portrait.jpg

Oh yeah? :D

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/clinton-hitler.jpg

[Warham]

Bill Clinton's prestigious military record:

Bill Clinton registers for the draft on September 8, 1964, accepting all contractual conditions of registering for the draft. Given Selective Service Number 3 26 46 228.

Bill Clinton classified 2-S on November 17, 1964
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on March 20, 1968
Bill Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969
Bill Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Colonel E. Holmes.
Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment
Bill Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969
Bill Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) "registrant who has failed to report...remain liable for induction"
Bill Clinton's birth date lottery number is 311, drawn December 1, 1969, but anyone who has already been ordered to report for induction, is INELIGIBLE!
Bill Clinton runs for Congress (1974), while a fugitive from justice under Public Law 90-40
Bill Clinton runs for Arkansas Attorney General (1976), while a fugitive from justice

All these facts come from Freedom of Information requests, public laws, and various books that have been published, and have not been refuted by Clinton.

[Warham]

http://www.dojgov.net/ClintonWhitehouse.gif

[Warham]

http://www.zpub.com/un/bc-hitler.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
http://www.dojgov.net/ClintonWhitehouse.gif

Jesus H. Christmas, the guys been out of office fours years now and people still have nazi photojob jobs done on him. Oh yeah, he was the one that's chipping away at our civil liberties with The Patriot Act!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
http://www.zpub.com/un/bc-hitler.jpg

Oh, the Chinese! They were just pissed about their embassy being bombed.

[Warham]

hehe.

That's probably a good four years old.

Hey, we are all sick of FORD posting pictures of Bush as Hitler.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
hehe.

That's probably a good four years old.

Hey, we are all sick of FORD posting pictures of Bush as Hitler.

I haven't seen any in a while, his avatar is not photoshopped either. But I have some good ones. Well, he's not a Nazi in this one:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Jesus H. Christmas, the guys been out of office fours years now and people still have nazi photojob jobs done on him. Oh yeah, he was the one that's chipping away at our civil liberties with The Patriot Act!

Actually, he is. Or was. It is/was his (Reno's) act, for the most part. :gulp:

[b1c2]

Originally posted by blueturk
How many of those presidents who never served in the military proclaimed themselves a "war president'?


Uh, the National Guard IS part of the military. I work for Joint Forces and we have over 2500 guard members in this state deployed or have been deployed. Guard members are risking AND losing their lives just like any other service.

And as far as rich boys pulling strings, how in the hell do you think Clinton got to be a Rhodes Scholar that allowed him to miss part of the draft? It is just the way of the world.

And not that I am a huge W fan, but he is our Commander in Chief and I doubt you would find many soldiers upset about him wearing the uniform.

But back to the subject at hand, YES, our soldiers need and deserve our support. I've been associated w/the military basically all my adult life and the sacrifices these soldiers and their families make are something we should all be aware of. One way to help support them is by donating to the Family Readiness Groups, Morale, Welfare & Recreation Fund or the Family Assistance Fund. You can PM me if you want more info. This is especially true of Guard and Reserve soldiers/sailors because many of them have left behind far better paying jobs in order to serve and now they and their families are forced to live at on a military salary instead.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Oh yeah? :D

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/clinton-hitler.jpg

shit I forgot about that

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
He is "president" , during a time of "war". How many used that exact verbiage, I don't know, I'm not a scholar. Are you saying he doesn't have the right to make that claim?

Talk about clutching at straws! A "president" during a time of "war"? You're starting to sound a lot like Clinton yourself,BT. Rather than debate the literal meaning of "war president' with you,I'll just let your hero do the talking.Here's what Dubya had to say on the February 8th 2003 edition of "Meet The Press" on NBC:" I'm a war president. I make decisions here in the Oval Office in foreign policy matters with war on my mind". THAT'S what I was talking about. But I really think you already knew that.

[Big Train]

Well Turk, the point was (why do I always have to explain it twice?) that LITERALLY nothing he is saying is incorrect. What exactly is "clutching at straws" about that statement I don't know. You'll need to explain that one. But I guess you can't, as you've opted not to...

Why is he "my hero"? Was Kerry "your hero"? Were any of the losers the Dems put up your "guy"? I like Bush and thought he was the better choice.

You've got nothing here, so I don't know what exactly we are debating.

[blueturk]

Simply put,
Originally posted by Big Train
Well Turk, the point was (why do I always have to explain it twice?) that LITERALLY nothing he is saying is incorrect. What exactly is "clutching at straws" about that statement I don't know. You'll need to explain that one. But I guess you can't, as you've opted not to...

Why is he "my hero"? Was Kerry "your hero"? Were any of the losers the Dems put up your "guy"? I like Bush and thought he was the better choice.

You've got nothing here, so I don't know what exactly we are debating.

Explain WHAT twice? That literally nothing Bush says is incorrect? Literally nothing that you or I or anybody else says is incorrect either,if you want to get literal about it.I didn't "opt out" of explaining my statement about clutching at straws .The meaning of that term should be fairly obvious.
As for Kerry ,why would he be my hero?In my brief time on this site,I've never mentioned him at all.I call Dubya your hero because of your unflinching belief in him,as evidenced by the post that started this discussion; the ridiculous "war"and "president" theory.

[Big Train]

I'm just trying to figure out what your trying to call him out on. Unflinching? Hardly. I feel people should be called out when warranted, I'm just trying to see that in your little tirade here. I used Kerry as an example, as you choose to use Bush on me. It's just as stupid.

[blueturk]

OK,I'll take it slow. I started this thread to call Bush out for wearing a specially tailored Marine tanker jacket usually worn by officers and enlisted men (though theirs aren't specially tailored),because he is not a soldier and for all intents and purposes never has been been,in my opinion.
Than when I mentioned Dubya proclaiming himself a "war president' you came up with the Clintonian "president" in a time of "war" argument, so I posted Bush's quote about being a "war president" with "war on my mind" to clarify my use of the term "war president".I think calling Bush out for this quote is warranted,because Dubya has never been in a war and in fact took great pains to avoid being in one.
Are we straight now?

[jacksmar]

Nickdfresh,

Are you sure you want to continue your wrong assessment?
Warham presented a genuine war hero and you disagree.
Warham presents a past Presidents draft record and you disagree, and then pictures the rest of the world saw.

You’re either living in the same world Ford is living in, or facts are in the way of your thinking.

Bluturk, I’m assuming you know reg 35-10?

[Big Train]

Originally posted by blueturk
OK,I'll take it slow. I started this thread to call Bush out for wearing a specially tailored Marine tanker jacket usually worn by officers and enlisted men (though theirs aren't specially tailored),because he is not a soldier and for all intents and purposes never has been been,in my opinion.
Than when I mentioned Dubya proclaiming himself a "war president' you came up with the Clintonian "president" in a time of "war" argument, so I posted Bush's quote about being a "war president" with "war on my mind" to clarify my use of the term "war president".I think calling Bush out for this quote is warranted,because Dubya has never been in a war and in fact took great pains to avoid being in one.
Are we straight now?

Genius, listen. GW was never an infantryman, correct, but he was a part of our armed forces "For all intents and purposes". As the current commander-in-chief of ALL armed forces of the United States, he is entitled to wear any and all uniforms thereof, "in my opinion".

We are in a war right now. Obviously you are a very literal guy as in "he fought in the trenches at normandy" kinda of guy being the only person who is authorized to use the term "War president". Which is stupid. His use of the term is to literally say "I am a president in a time of war. The war is always on my mind". There is no ambiguity in that statement, it is fact. Your splitting cunthairs and adding interpretations to make a strange argument. That's all I'm saying.

I'm straight...always have been.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by jacksmar
Nickdfresh,

Are you sure you want to continue your wrong assessment?
Warham presented a genuine war hero and you disagree.
Warham presents a past Presidents draft record and you disagree, and then pictures the rest of the world saw.


What wrong assessment? Clinton protested against Vietnam and then signed up for the draft though he did try to avoid service.

Dubya was vehemently pro-Vietnam yet rook great pains to avoid service while heroically flying over Dallas in search of the elusive Viet Cong while flying an aircraft type he knew damn well was useless in Vietnam (F-102 Interceptor with little manuverablity in air to air combat). He used his clout to get into the Texas Air Nat'l Guard, and then essentially abandoned his post in Alabama.

Where was I wrong in that "conclusion." Give me a couple specifics Jacksmar!

By the way, did you know that some guy crawled out of the woodwork during the 88' Presidential election and called George Bush Sr. a coward? I don't remember the specifics, but he implied that Bush abandoned his crewmen to die after his torpedo bomber crashed in the sea.

Does a guy with a partisan ax to grind that comes out to cast aspersions on someone's service record mean anything to me? Not really! I even heard that Teddy Roosevelt never made the charge up San Juan Hill according top a soldier in his unit. Do I believe him? But you guys only bring this shit up when a Democrat is involved.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Genius, listen. GW was never an infantryman, correct, but he was a part of our armed forces "For all intents and purposes". As the current commander-in-chief of ALL armed forces of the United States, he is entitled to wear any and all uniforms thereof, "in my opinion".

We are in a war right now. Obviously you are a very literal guy as in "he fought in the trenches at normandy" kinda of guy being the only person who is authorized to use the term "War president". Which is stupid. His use of the term is to literally say "I am a president in a time of war. The war is always on my mind". There is no ambiguity in that statement, it is fact. Your splitting cunthairs and adding interpretations to make a strange argument. That's all I'm saying.

I'm straight...always have been.

He wanted to be a pilot. There was a war going on that needed combat pilots! So why did he not volunteer to fly a F-105 "thud" or a F-4 Phantom in the regular airforce? So he could avoid any risk of combat!

[b1c2]

This got me thinking about something- why are the type of men that run from serving their country now in charge of it? Seriously...neither Clinton nor W did what I consider the best thing for their country when they had the chance to. Is it because both of them were spoiled boys that want to be at the top but don't want to do the work to get them there? Are they just so accustomed to getting around the loopholes of life because of who they are that it doesn't occur to them that they're being treated specially? If so, why is America electing them? Because there isn't anyone better? Why aren't we insisting more from our elected officials? Should you have to have been in the military to be commander-in-chief?

[Nickdfresh]

Being President is an extremely tough job. Look at a picture of Bush four or five years ago, and look at one of him today. Clinton looks a lot better now than he's been out of office now, and he still had heart trouble.

[Big Train]

Nick,

You raise an interesting question, but I also see another possibility. Perhaps Daddy did want him to go and put him in a safe place. It isn't like he didn't have the pull.

As far as military service goes, should it be mandatory to be president: I don't think so. It's like saying you had to play ball to be a great coach. There are some shitty coaches who are former players and some great coaches who never played. It is the world's biggest management job and not easy. The military is only one aspect of what he does. While I do think military service is helpful, I don't think it is everything.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Nick,

You raise an interesting question, but I also see another possibility. Perhaps Daddy did want him to go and put him in a safe place. It isn't like he didn't have the pull.

As far as military service goes, should it be mandatory to be president: I don't think so. It's like saying you had to play ball to be a great coach. There are some shitty coaches who are former players and some great coaches who never played. It is the world's biggest management job and not easy. The military is only one aspect of what he does. While I do think military service is helpful, I don't think it is everything.

I actually agree. Most senior officers who served under Clinton (i.e. Gen. Colin Powell ret.) praised his understanding of the issues.

But by the same token, I am uncomfortable with a President that too freely dons military garb to get "street cred" with the troops, not that I think Bush was necessarily wrong in doing so in this particular case, I was more sickened by the flight suit episode a ways back.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Warham
Clinton never served his country and Dubya did. End of story.

8 years as President isn't serving your country? :rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Angel
8 years as President isn't serving your country? :rolleyes:

A life time of public service sure is. Especially when you've been dogged by Ken Starr for a large part of those 8 years.

[Big Train]

Nice swerve there.. Touche Libs..

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Nice swerve there.. Touche Libs.. :drive: :D

[Big Train]

When points can't be gained...reframe the argument...love it.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
When points can't be gained...reframe the argument...love it.

I'm really not sure what you mean.

[Big Train]

Well, posters are arguing about Clinton's service vs. W's (Militarily), essentially saying Clinton never served. Angel comes in and swerves with "Doesn't the presidency count?", thus reframing the scope of the argument. Which is what I found amusing...

You could argue you are "broadening" the scope of the discussion, but I see it as a swerve.

[Nickdfresh]

I don't think she meant to swerve as much as she didn't know we were talking about strictly military service, though Clinton's tenure as Commander and Chief might or might not technically count.

[FORD]

Originally posted by b1c2
This got me thinking about something- why are the type of men that run from serving their country now in charge of it? Seriously...neither Clinton nor W did what I consider the best thing for their country when they had the chance to. Is it because both of them were spoiled boys that want to be at the top but don't want to do the work to get them there? Are they just so accustomed to getting around the loopholes of life because of who they are that it doesn't occur to them that they're being treated specially? If so, why is America electing them? Because there isn't anyone better? Why aren't we insisting more from our elected officials? Should you have to have been in the military to be commander-in-chief?

I don't believe that it should be a requirement, because the obvious extention of that thought would be that war is perpetually neccessary in order to create leaders. And that of course would be complete bullshit.

FDR never wore a uniform himself, but he was certainly a more than capable Commander in Chief during the most serious war of the past century.

A better question related to what you asked above, is why a deserter like Bush Jr can get away with shitting all over not one, or even two, but three Vietnam Vets who ran against him. McCain, Gore, and Kerry were all Vietnam veterans and whatever else you may think of any or all of them, the fact is that they put their asses on the line while Poppy was protecting Junior's through his connections.

To downplay military service would be one thing. To exploit it and make it a negative, as the Bush campaign did in both 2000 and 2004 is completely inexcuseable,

And the BCE also backed neocon candidate Saxby Chambliss in Georgia in 2002, who used a similar smear campaign on Senator Max Cleland, a man who literally left half his body in Vietnam.

While the Vietnam war itself was a horrible mistake (only recently topped by a even worse one) there should be no tolerance whatsoever for anyone shitting all over a veteran's service to this country.

Especially not by a loathesome piece of shit deserter whose grandfather funded a genocidal psychopath.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
Genius, listen. GW was never an infantryman, correct, but he was a part of our armed forces "For all intents and purposes". As the current commander-in-chief of ALL armed forces of the United States, he is entitled to wear any and all uniforms thereof, "in my opinion".

We are in a war right now. Obviously you are a very literal guy as in "he fought in the trenches at normandy" kinda of guy being the only person who is authorized to use the term "War president". Which is stupid. His use of the term is to literally say "I am a president in a time of war. The war is always on my mind". There is no ambiguity in that statement, it is fact. Your splitting cunthairs and adding interpretations to make a strange argument. That's all I'm saying.

I'm straight...always have been.

My "strange argument" was explained when I started this thread,and I think I've been fairly direct in my posts.The only "interpretation" I gave was a direct quote from Bush. You on the other hand feel you have to disect the phrase "war president" to defend Dubya.I myself worry about a president who thinks of foreign policy in terms of war first. You don't. So be it.

[jacksmar]

“and then essentially abandoned his post in Alabama.”
That’s what I’m talking about Nick. Didn’t happen. And just like I said to Ford, I’ll take this guys statement over most any day.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/13iraq.htm

There used to be a video but I can't find it anymore.