Well Known Atheist Turns Believer

[Nickdfresh]

At 81, atheist turns believer (kind of)
By RICHARD N. OSTLING
Associated Press
12/10/2004

NEW YORK - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God - more or less - based on scientific evidence and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting that belief in God is a mistake, Anthony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

Flew said he is best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

Biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Books.

Prometheus, based in Amherst, N.Y., specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well, "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

[Warham]

Sounds like a fine chap.

[BigBadBrian]

TJ wasn't a Deist, though the Liberal establishment would like you to believe he was. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

He wasn't a Christian either although the religious right would like us to believe "this nation was founded on Christian principles," which is a bold faced lie!

[DaveIsKing]

It was founded on Satanism. Bwahahahaha!!!!

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs

Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion. He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists such as Bolingbroke and Shaftesbury. Thus in the spirit of the Enlightenment, he made the following recommendation to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787: "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear." In Query XVII of Notes on the State of Virginia, he clearly outlines the views which led him to play a leading role in the campaign to separate church and state and which culminated in the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error." Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.



With the help of Richard Price, a Unitarian minister in London, and Joseph Priestly, an English scientist-clergyman who emigrated to America in 1794, Jefferson eventually arrived at some positive assertions of his private religion. His ideas are nowhere better expressed than in his compilations of extracts from the New Testament "The Philosophy of Jesus" (1804) and "The Life and Morals of Jesus" (1819-20?). The former stems from his concern with the problem of maintaining social harmony in a republican nation. The latter is a multilingual collection of verses that was a product of his private search for religious truth. Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

--Rebecca Bowman, Monticello Research Department, August 1997



Pictured: Descent from the Cross by Frans Floris; photographed by Edward Owen. Herodias Bearing the Head of Saint John, copy after c. 1631 original by Guido Reni; photographed by Edward Owen. Jefferson displayed both these paintings at Monticello.

[Nickdfresh]

*

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

Interesting...

[Nickdfresh]

Nevertheless, Aristotle is the first to claim a scientific based deduction of God. He called him/her/it the "unmoved mover."

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
It was founded on Satanism. Bwahahahaha!!!!

It was founded on slavery and the murder of the indigenous people which is just about the greatest evil you can get.:)

[DaveIsKing]

I say we let Christians, Muslims and Jews (religious ones, not ethnicity), all battle it out at Armageddon...say...next week. Kill each other if you want, just be sure and leave us non-believers alone, please.

I think after all the massacres and slaughters of ALL THREE RELIGIONS COMBINED you guys owe us THAT much. Thank You. :)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
I say we let Christians, Muslims and Jews (religious ones, not ethnicity), all battle it out at Armageddon...say...next week. Kill each other if you want, just be sure and leave us non-believers alone, please.

I think after all the massacres and slaughters of ALL THREE RELIGIONS COMBINED you guys owe us THAT much. Thank You. :)

Before you get to far on your atheist high horse, remember Joe Stalin was an atheist and killed plenty of people in the name of himself. And I can't really vouch for Hitler's religious beliefs, but I don't think he was a believer.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Nevertheless, Aristotle is the first to claim a scientific based deduction of God. He called him/her/it the "unmoved mover."


God is Male. That is why we call him FATHER. God is not a woman. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
God is Male. That is why we call him FATHER. God is not a woman. :gulp:

I wonder if God has a really big penis? Of course "HE" does! HE"S GOD FOR CHRISTSAKES! No pun intended.

[DaveIsKing]

Joseph Stalin was a lunatic.

We're not talking about a few loonies, here. We are speaking of NATIONS, WHOLE CULTURES, WHOLE GENERATIONS are PEOPLE killing people.

Hitler was religious.

Stalin, Mao...I don't think were, but I'd say us ATHEISTS have a MUCH BETTER track record.

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
TJ wasn't a Deist, though the Liberal establishment would like you to believe he was. :gulp:

I've posted links to "The Jefferson Bible" (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/) at least three times now and explained exactly how Tom went about creating this document. it was a literal cut and paste job, long before you could do such things with a web browser..

Point is that Jefferson removed not only Jesus Christ's resurrection and ascension to Heaven, but also every miracle JC ever performed on this planet. To deny Jesus' supernatural works as the Son of God is to call Him a liar. And one who calls Jesus Christ a liar cannot correctly be referred to as a Christian, no matter how much admiration he might claim for JC's teachings in the philosophical sense.

So while Jefferson may have been an intelligent man, a capable leader, and the founder of the Democratic party, he was definitely not a Christian.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
Joseph Stalin was a lunatic.

We're not talking about a few loonies, here. We are speaking of NATIONS, WHOLE CULTURES, WHOLE GENERATIONS are PEOPLE killing people.

Hitler was religious.

Stalin, Mao...I don't think were, but I'd say us ATHEISTS have a MUCH BETTER track record.

No they don't. Don't kid yourself. Hitler wasn't any more religious than you or Sesh is. I'm not insulting you guys either. I'm just saying those guys didn't have any sort of real faith. :gulp:

[DaveIsKing]

Hitler had some mystical shit going on, though. He mentioned it quite a lot. I've got Mein Kampf and several old propaganda films. I am a major WORLD WAR II buff. :D

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
God is Male. That is why we call him FATHER. God is not a woman. :gulp:


So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. - Genesis 1:27

So if God created a female in His image, would that not imply that God had a female image to work from?

This is your 6000 year old patriarchal Old Testament scripture talking about a woman created in God's image. It's no liberal trick.

Bottom line is that assigning something like gender or race or even religion to God is a complete fucking waste of time.

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No they don't. Don't kid yourself. Hitler wasn't any more religious than you or Sesh is. I'm not insulting you guys either. I'm just saying those guys didn't have any sort of real faith. :gulp:

And neither do the fascists of today. But they use religion to con the people just like Adolf did. Hell, at least the Communists were honest about it.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
Hitler had some mystical shit going on, though. He mentioned it quite a lot. I've got Mein Kampf and several old propaganda films. I am a major WORLD WAR II buff. :D

No! That's a myth. After Hitler's second in command parachuted in to England to make a truce on the advice of astrologers, Hitler rounded up many of them and sent them to concentration camps. He wanted his SS followers to believe in the Nordic mythology shit, but he himself was quite skeptical of organized religion because it conflicted with his own cult-of-personality.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Bottom line is that assigning something like gender or race or even religion to God is a complete fucking waste of time.

Amen!

[DaveIsKing]

That's not quite how he puts in Mein Kamp and several of his speeches. If some biographer says this it is merely his opinion. The main thing is that he used BLIND FAITH just like religion to accomplish his goals.

Funny how many people have been slaughtered in the name of religion, faith or love. In the Name of God or gods.

[Nickdfresh]

He was largely full of shit according to his henchmen. He did that to appeal to the "warrior mythology."

[DaveIsKing]

Pardon me, but you seem to APPEAR to know a lot about Hitler and normally I would along with such intelligence, but considering I've been a scholar of this for well over a decade or more, I will have to either present boatloads of evidence or just shake your hand and politely agree to disagree.

I'll take the latter in the name of TIME.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No they don't. Don't kid yourself. Hitler wasn't any more religious than you or Sesh is. I'm not insulting you guys either. I'm just saying those guys didn't have any sort of real faith. :gulp:

Nice analogy...

Kind of like saying all vegetarian dog lovers are mass murderers...

Hey if it's an historical moralistic shit slinging contest we're getting into here then I'd hate to be on the side of having to defend the 'Christians'...:)


http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/shimages/film/nazislrg.jpg

[Seshmeister]

http://hist.academic.claremontmckenna.edu/jpetropoulos/church/tamerpage/hitler26bishop.gif

Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin On April 20, 1939, Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."

[Katydid]

Yeah blame the Catholics for everything. And talk about how great Hitler and Satan is.

You need sheets and pointed hats and you'd put America back 100 years.

Let your asses get in trouble and I bet you'd be calling on some sort of Higher Power. I don't think you'd be calling on porn stars or satan.

And God has white hair and looks like NickdFresh's avatar. He blest me once in a dream...Jesus and Mary did too...From the top of my head to the soles of my feet.

[Seshmeister]

That wasn't god that was your little brother wanking over you in your sleep.

[FORD]

God looks like Wes Clark?

I know a contingent over at DU who will be really happy to hear that. I was hoping He would look more like Dean :(

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
God looks like Wes Clark?

I know a contingent over at DU who will be really happy to hear that. I was hoping He would look more like Dean :(

No. But now that you mention it, he does seem like a distant relative :D:

http://as.wn.com/i/f8/bf0ba6b4da1aad.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
God looks like Wes Clark?

I know a contingent over at DU who will be really happy to hear that. I was hoping He would look more like Dean :(

Certainly God doesn't look like this:

http://perkypapist.blogs.com/blog/Howard5.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Certainly God doesn't look like this:

http://perkypapist.blogs.com/blog/Howard5.jpg

No he doesn't. But Dean sort of reminds me of an angry Jesus throwing the merchants out of the temple.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No he doesn't. But Dean sort of reminds me of an angry Jesus throwing the merchants out of the temple.

That's funny...he looks to me like a Democratic Nominee going down the tubes. :gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
That's funny...he looks to me like a Democratic Nominee going down the tubes. :gulp:

Perhaps he shall rise again?;)

[DaveIsKing]

God looks like me.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
God is Male. That is why we call him FATHER. God is not a woman. :gulp:

Look at when the Bible was written and when it was assembled. Of course God is thought of as male. Having the men at the time think they were being servant to an almighty female diety wasn't going to happen.

God's a being far superior to our understandings of male and female.

[lms2]

In heaven there is no sex.

[FORD]

Originally posted by lms2
In heaven there is no sex.

Don't let the Mormons hear you say that! They're convinced that every time a baby is born on earth, a spirit baby is born in Heaven. And they come about in the same way.

Elohim (God) and His wives concieve these "spirit babies"

Actually, it makes perfect sense when you think about it. At the current rate of population on this planet, babies are being conceived and born every second. Which would mean Heavenly Father is so busy getting laid and making spirit babies that He wouldn't have time to do anything else.

Thus explaining the fucked up state of the world.

Which itself can be blamed on the Mormons, the Catholics, and others who oppose contraception :D

[Ally_Kat]

just to mention something about the original topic --

did anyone else go,"hmm...81-year-old suddenly finding God" and think old man trying to cover his ass? Or am I just evil and pessimistic like that?

[lms2]

Actually I did. It seems the closer people get to death, the more they want to believe there will be some sort of "reward" or "better place" waiting for them. Thus all the people with near death experiences who suddenly become christian.

Does the lord move in mysterious ways... or are we so stuck on ourselves that we just can't seem to believe we will suddenly simply cease existing?

[Ally_Kat]

not everyone who has a NDE is a nonbeliever. Some afterwards up their church attendance, but I think that's normal. People tend to let things slide until they become important.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
just to mention something about the original topic --

did anyone else go,"hmm...81-year-old suddenly finding God" and think old man trying to cover his ass? Or am I just evil and pessimistic like that?

Yes you are. He doesn't believe in an afterlife. So he's fucked either way really,

[DEMON CUNT]

But you gotta admit that Christain pussy is HOT!

Chickty-check out Amy Grant! DAAAAAAMMMMNN!

http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/02/13/fweek/wk13amy.jpg

Mama! Titty!

[DEMON CUNT]

http://perkypapist.blogs.com/blog/Howard5.jpg

Kinda looks like the God of the Old Testament to me!

[DEMON CUNT]

Originally posted by lms2
In heaven there is no sex.

Can we "beat off" at least? Is there porn in heaven?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
Can we "beat off" at least? Is there porn in heaven?

No.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by lms2
Actually I did. It seems the closer people get to death, the more they want to believe there will be some sort of "reward" or "better place" waiting for them. Thus all the people with near death experiences who suddenly become christian.



It's called hedging your bets...