The Major League Baseball ShakeUp

[POJO_Risin]

Alright...1 at a time...over the last few days...

Today...

the DBacks throw a 4 year deal to Russ Ortiz...

Just can't figure it out...

he wins...but I still can't figure out how...

[POJO_Risin]

DBacks also sign Troy Glaus...kind of an under the radar move...

if the DBacks keep RJ...they'll contend again...

[Mezro]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
the DBacks throw a 4 year deal to Russ Ortiz...

Just can't figure it out...

he wins...but I still can't figure out how...

Flax seed.

Mezro...must be the flax seed...

[POJO_Risin]

Jeff Kent signs a 2 year deal with the Dodgers...

an interesting move...for a guy past his prime...

we'll see if the West Coast brings him back...

didn't Kent play for the Dodgers briefly before?

[POJO_Risin]

The Cubs are desperately trying to dump Sosa...so they can make a run at Carlos Beltran...

Great move if they can make it...

[tjvhou812]

if the d.backs are gonna keep signing good players, they might as well keep r.johnson, cuase they might have a shot

[tjvhou812]

and the bosox need to sign pedro...

or they will be in trouble... it looks like they are gonna land
david wells...and if they can get pavono, they will be in good shape for another ring

[POJO_Risin]

Well...the thing is TJ...that they may not be able to afford all of these signings and keep RJ...

I think they are banking on signing some good players...

and using RJ to bulk up at more than one position...

we'll see...

[POJO_Risin]

I just don't see them landing all of those guys though...

Varitek will play a part as well...for the Sox that is...

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
I just don't see them landing all of those guys though...

Varitek will play a part as well...for the Sox that is...

well they need 2 of the 3....and yes they need to sign tek

[POJO_Risin]

If they sign Varitek...no way Pavano comes...not enough money...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I think they'll move RJ to the Yanks now, most likely via a 3-way deal....

That's a lot of clams to pay...

[Igosplut]

I don't think they're gonna sign Pedro...

I have a feeling that they think he's done after two years or so...

[POJO_Risin]

Especially since that fucker wants 14 million a year...

fuck that...

As far as RJ in a three way deal? I just don't see that...although a straight up I could see...

I don't know...

[POJO_Risin]

Hidalgo signed with the Rangers for 5 million a year...and now they focus on fucking Delgado...

christ...what a lineup if that happens...

Blalock, Soriano, Young, Delgado and Hidalgo...holy hell...and I know I'm forgetting someone...

[Warham]

If the Cubs can dump Sosa and get Beltran, it might be their best move since getting Ryne Sandberg back in 1982.

[Figs]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Hidalgo signed with the Rangers for 5 million a year...and now they focus on fucking Delgado...

christ...what a lineup if that happens...

Blalock, Soriano, Young, Delgado and Hidalgo...holy hell...and I know I'm forgetting someone...

Texieira

they still need an ace

[TLR]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Hidalgo signed with the Rangers for 5 million a year...and now they focus on fucking Delgado...

christ...what a lineup if that happens...

Blalock, Soriano, Young, Delgado and Hidalgo...holy hell...and I know I'm forgetting someone...

Texeira. He's still with them, isn't he? If so, there's one...

Michael Young, too. He's no bum...

[Figs]

The Mets are supposedly going after Pedro pretty hard. He might be better off in the NL where you can yank him for a PH in the 7th since he's not so durable.

[Igosplut]

Now theres talk that David Wells is close to a deal with Boston.......

Is the sky gonna fall in now??

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
As far as RJ in a three way deal? I just don't see that...although a straight up I could see...

I don't know...

Straight up for who ?? And you know they don't have shit for prospects in the minor league system....

[Lou]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Hidalgo signed with the Rangers for 5 million a year...and now they focus on fucking Delgado...

christ...what a lineup if that happens...

Blalock, Soriano, Young, Delgado and Hidalgo...holy hell...and I know I'm forgetting someone...

Yeah gonna be lots o'strikeouts in that lineup too. I think Richard Hidalgo is a Dave Kingman type player. He had that one really good year in Houston, and since then it's .250 w/30-35 HR's. Not a player to get excited about in my opinion.

[Lou]

Well I looked at his career stats, he's pretty up and down. He had a couple of mostly-full years of batting over .300. He had that one phenomenal year of 2000 which he hasn't really approximated since then. So you really don't know what you're gonna get. You could very well get a guy who's not going to break .250 and strikeout over 125 times.

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by Igosplut
I don't think they're gonna sign Pedro...

I have a feeling that they think he's done after two years or so...

i don't think pedro is going anywhere but the red sox

[POJO_Risin]

Well...first of all Va...I don't think RJ is really going to go anywhere...

he'll no trade it and stay...with the moves they made...

As far as a three way deal...it's kind of laughable...because generally...if Billy Beane isn't involved...it doesn't happen...

[POJO_Risin]

They have shit for prospects in the upper minors...

but if they include Vazquez...and maybe 2 fantastic A players...

AND...

if the DBacks really want to deal RJ...which I doubt...

the deal will get done...

until then...I just don't see it...

a three way...four way...ten way...or two way...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Well...first of all Va...I don't think RJ is really going to go anywhere...

he'll no trade it and stay...with the moves they made...

As far as a three way deal...it's kind of laughable...because generally...if Billy Beane isn't involved...it doesn't happen...

I'm starting to think he'll stay now as well...

RJ has said as recent as a couple of days ago that he'll only waive the no-trade clause to go to the Chokers, er, Yankees.... ;) (had to throw that one in there)...

[Igosplut]

Originally posted by Igosplut
Now theres talk that David Wells is close to a deal with Boston.......

Is the sky gonna fall in now??

Well they signed him.....

LINK (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-redsox-wells&prov=ap&type=lgns)

Red Sox, Wells reach agreement

By JIMMY GOLEN, AP Sports Writer
December 11, 2004
ANAHEIM, Calif. (AP) -- The Boston Red Sox have reached agreement with 41-year-old David Wells, bringing the boisterous lefty to their already wild clubhouse to help defend their World Series title.

Wells agreed Saturday to an $8 million, two-year contract with Boston that could be worth up to $18 million over two years, a Red Sox official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. The deal is pending a physical.

Wells gets a $3 million signing bonus and a salary of $2.5 million a year. In addition, he would earn $200,000 per start from 11-20 and $300,000 per start from 21-30.

Red Sox manager Terry Francona declined comment on Wells, but he said he wasn't worried about having too many characters on the team.

``Last year we had a lot of strong personalities but they didn't really go their own (way),'' Francona said Saturday. ``They just came together. I guess that's what you want.''

Wells had said that he wanted to return to his hometown Padres, but with a guaranteed contract instead of one loaded with incentives like the deal he signed as a free agent last winter. He earned $1.25 million in base pay and another $4.75 million in incentives by making 31 starts; he could have made $1 million more if he hadn't missed three weeks after a fluke household injury.

Wells was 12-8 with a 3.73 ERA last season.

``Despite his love for the Yankees, he walked away from us last year,'' New York general manager Brian Cashman said. ``The bottom line is it's a business. He had to do what's best for him and his family.''

Wells could replace Pedro Martinez or join him in a rotation behind ace Curt Schilling. The Red Sox have offered Martinez a two-year deal with options that could make it worth more than $38.5 million over three years.

Boston also has pursued free agent Carl Pavano, who was 18-8 with a 3.00 ERA for Florida last season. He is deciding among the Red Sox, Yankees, Mariners, Orioles, Angels and Tigers.

``He can see himself in every uniform. I said, 'Carl, you can only pitch for one team,''' his agent, Scott Shapiro said. ``When he's ready, he'll let me know.''

The Red Sox are not expected to re-sign Derek Lowe, a former 20-game winner who struggled last year before pitching in the clinching games of all three playoff rounds as Boston won the World Series for the first time since 1918.

To end the drought, the Red Sox turned the clubhouse over to free spirits like Johnny Damon, David Ortiz and Kevin Millar -- an unshaven and unkempt bunch that foiled the strait-laced Yankees and won an unprecedented eight consecutive games after spotting New York a three-game lead in the AL championship series.

Asked Friday if he was concerned that Wells' carousing might upset the chemistry in the Boston clubhouse, general manager Theo Epstein said sarcastically, ``No, we don't have any guys like that.''

Wells missed three starts in late May and early June after tripping over a bar stool at home, knocking a bottle of wine onto the floor and landing on it and a glass he was holding. He severed a tendon in his right wrist, requiring surgery, and cut his left palm.

Wells had back surgery before signing with the Padres last year. He has also been involved in several off-field scrapes that would seem to make him a natural fit for Boston's frat house atmosphere.

In January 1997, while in San Diego for his mother's funeral, Wells got into a street fight outside a bar and broke his pitching hand. In 2002, he was punched in the face by a man during an early morning altercation in a New York diner and lost two teeth.

In '03, Wells wrote a book titled: ``Perfect I'm Not! Boomer on Beer, Brawls, Backaches and Baseball.'' Besides detailing how he grew up in the middle of a Hells Angels gang in a gritty San Diego neighborhood, he contended that he was ``half drunk'' when he pitched a perfect game in 1998 for the Yankees after partying until just a few hours before the game.


Updated

[POJO_Risin]

Hmmmm...Wells...not a horrible pick up...an under the radar guy this year...

interesting...I can't believe he's pitching for fucking Boston after saying he wanted to blow up Fenway...

lmfao...

he better pitch well...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I like Wells, good guy....

Beer gut, and I've heard a big DLR/VH fan.....

[Igosplut]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Hmmmm...Wells...not a horrible pick up...an under the radar guy this year...

interesting...I can't believe he's pitching for fucking Boston after saying he wanted to blow up Fenway...

lmfao...

he better pitch well...

I would say better than Lowe, you think??

hard to believe that he's going to Boston after all that shit talk....

If he doesn't pitch well the fans will eat him for lunch.... then again...whats new...

[Lou]

I thought I heard Wells was a Hagar fan. In fact he wore a hat with the ringed VH logo in 1998.

[redblkwht]

Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
I like Wells, good guy....

Beer gut, and I've heard a big DLR/VH fan.....
Met him, hes a hagarite to the bone..speaks to eddie on occasion.
remember? 2000 my thread when i was in Tampa? ;)
good guy though, no bad side on the personality dept. chatted
for a good 1/2 hr on VH situation then. wifes pretty hot too.

[redblkwht]

Yanks got Pavano..

------------------------------------------------------------------------

ANAHEIM, Calif. (AP) -- Carl Pavano decided Saturday he wanted to pitch for the Yankees, and his agent and New York closed in on a four-year contract worth about $39 million.

Pavano called his agent, Scott Shapiro, on Saturday morning and informed him of his decision.

"Number one, he wants to win," Shapiro said.

Anaheim, Baltimore, Boston, Detroit and Seattle also sought the right-hander, 18-8 with a 3.00 ERA for Florida last season.

Shapiro said his next step was to meet with Yankees general manager Brian Cashman to finalize an agreement. Pavano and Shapiro met with the Yankees in New York last weekend, and Shapiro was confident a contract would be agreed to.

"We have to really hunker down and have some serious negotiations to hammer out the deal," Shapiro said.

The Yankees expect the agreement will be worth about $39 million, a baseball official said on condition of anonymity, and the contract could contain an option for a fifth season.

New York also has a preliminary agreement with right-hander Jaret Wright on three-year, $21 million contract, but there may be a hitch in the deal. New York is still evaluating his physical exam, the baseball official said, and hasn't determined whether he passed it or failed it.

Pavano had been wooed by the World Series champion Red Sox, with Curt Schilling inviting him to his home last month. A native of New Britain, Conn., he began his professional career in the Boston organization, and was traded to Montreal in the 1997 deal that brought Pedro Martinez to the Red Sox.

"The Red Sox are an incredible organization. Obviously he's got a soft spot in his heart for them," Shapiro said. "It's been a real difficult decision for him. ... It's about Carl being happy where he's living and where he's playing."

Earlier in the day, former Yankee David Wells made a surprising decision to pitch for Boston, reaching a preliminary agreement on a two-year, $8 million contract with the Red Sox that could be worth up to $18 million.

In the AL Championship Series, New York became the first major league baseball team ever to waste a 3-0 postseason series lead, losing to Boston as its pitching collapsed. The Yankees have made reshaping their rotation a priority, and Pavano would join holdovers Mike Mussina, Javier Vazquez, Kevin Brown and possibly Wright.

New York also has been talking with left-hander Eric Milton, who wants a three-year, $24 million deal, and could bring back Orlando Hernandez.

Pavano, who turns 29 next month, has been probably the most sought-after of the top-level free-agent pitchers. In addition to New York and Boston, he also visited Detroit and Seattle.

"It was a long process, but Carl is comfortable because he turned over every rock, he gathered all the information possible to make a decision," Shapiro said.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
cnnsi.com courtesy-

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Another good signing for those fuckers....

[POJO_Risin]

I have no problem with Pavano...I just don't see him as a number 1...

So here's their rotation...

Pavano, Mussina, Vazquez, Wright and...who am I forgetting...Duque? Brown?....

So...what do we have...Pavano...a #2...Mussina...no longer a #1...Vazquez a #2 or #3 and Wright a #3...

Duque is injured every other week...and so is Brown...

They still need a #1...or they won't be any better than they were last year...

We'll see...

a good pickup yes...but not the answer...

[TLR]

HERE'S what they need: a LEFTY...

[POJO_Risin]

They need more than a lefty...they need a good lefty...

and a #1...having a lefty is a good thing...

but if you add a quality #1 starter to that staff...that they have now...

you don't need a lefty...

but it wouldn't help with matchups...that's true...

[TLR]

I personally hope they get a CRAPPY lefty.

They need the lefty to counteract the short porch in RF. Period...

(Remember a guy named Pettitte?)

[POJO_Risin]

Well...I'm sure there are still thoughts of Randy Johnson...but the fact is...there just aren't a bunch of quality lefties out there...

I'm sure they were in the Oakland hunt...until they found out it was Hudson...I think they were salivating over Zito...

[TLR]

Yep, they could very well still end up with His Unitness. However, Finley is lobbying for him to come to Anaheim now.

I'm crossing my fingers they don't have enough bullets in their gun to TRADE for a lefty. That leaves them with not much on the free agent market to choose from.

I hope Beane trades Hudson to Philly. Package the big free agent signee (Lieber) for him! Are you kidding me? John Lieber as their #1. Great...

[ALinChainz]

The Angels got Finley. He wanted tobe able to live in California where his home is, can't blame him for that.

Thought the Atlanta deal with the Brewers for Danny Kolb, returning Smoltz to the starting rotation.

And David Wells signing with the Red Sox.

[POJO_Risin]

Atlanta got Kolb?

I hadn't seen that...must have been tonight...

Moving Smoltz back to a starter is a mistake of mythic proportions if you ask me...but Kolb is a solid closer...

[Lou]

TLR, forget the Phillies doing anything. Their philosophy is a LETHAL combination of not wanting to spend a lot of money AND not wanting to take a chance that one of their "crown jewel" prospects will be good somewhere else. That's why Ryan Howard will toil in the minors. They wouldn't actually have the balls to trade Thome and get a pitcher and put Howard at first. And you heard me right, I'm already sick of Thome. What a streaky player he is, and he's not a leader. Not a guy you can build your whole lineup around.

Here's another ballsy move they should have tried in 2004--trade Pat Burrell. I don't see him approximating his 2002 season again. And his value will just keep slipping until they finally realize that he is an underachiever.

Nope, they won't spend money on Carl Pavano or Carlos Beltran. Instead it's Jon Lieber (who's a fine #3, not a #1 as they're gonna make him out to be) and Kenny Lofton. A day late and a dollar short with Lofton. And then they won't make ANY kind of gutsy trade. Everyone's untouchable. Won't trade Chase Utley for pitching, won't inquire about Thome, Burrell, Abreu, or anyone in that lineup. They would rather roll out the same lineup that strikes out too much instead of trade one of their 10 or 12 untouchables because that player might really take off somewhere else. And finally they hired a puppet manager. Couldn't hire Jim Leyland because he'd get in their face and tell them what needs to be done. Nope, they hired a yes man who also is someone that Thome is happy with. It's important that Thome be accommodated because his $15M a year isn't enough compensation.

Ed Wade, and that whole management team, are a JOKE.

[TLR]

Lou,

That's a mouthful you just spit out!

I know it is probably wishful thinking that they'll do something, but I still hope. I was around in '80 and hope that isn't the only one I ever see.

I find it interesting you characterize Thome as NOT being a leader. That flies directly in the face of virtually everything heard or read. I would totally disagree with trading him to put an unproven prospect at first base. He is streaky (as are almost all power guys), but you know what you are getting: 45 HR, 115 RBI. I'll take that...

I agree they should have looked into trading Burrell. However, maybe everyone else already knew what Phils fans were starting to realize: the 2002 season was his one big one. If he gets to .270, 30-35 and 90-100, that would be more than acceptable. Heck, he SHOULD hit that many HRs playing in the bandbox they are in.

I don't mind them not signing Pavano. He's not a #1...he's a younger version (slightly better) than Lieber. Nothing spectacular, in my view. Beltran is certainly not an option now (if he ever was) after they picked up Lofton. I question trading a 31 year old power reliever who could get it up to 97 for a 37 year old CF. They've been in love with Lofton since last year for some reason. They couldn't have afforded Beltran without moving SIGNIFICANT salary...simply not signing Polanco and Millwood would not have saved enough as some guys are due raises.

They could get a ton in a trade for Abreu, but he's a stud...even if he doesn't always play hard. Besides, his salary is reasonable in today's market.

As for Leyland...I'm not sure what to think. I mean, they got rid of Bowa because HE was a get-in-your face guy. They claim to need a "new voice" in the clubhouse. Hence, the addition of Manuel (also, his obvious connection to Thome as you noted). I look at Leyland as being more like Bowa...that wouldn't work with the "change" they wanted.

Note: Maybe Manuel can get Byrd to finally start swinging the bat...he's noted for reclamation projects with hitters who haven't reached their potential.

Ed Wade better hope this team wins NOW or he can be looking over his shoulder, I think...

[POJO_Risin]

Manuel is a great batting coach for sure...

however ask yourself this...is he a great batting coach?...or did he ride on the coattails of a mammoth hitting machine in Cleveland in the 90's...and Boston in the 2000's...

you ask me...he's a fucking hick...and won't make that Phillie team any better than Bowa...

winning in the minors does not equate to squat in the bigs...and he's proved that with the Tribe...he couldn't handle the pitching staff...

[POJO_Risin]

There's actually a lot of sense in what LOOOOOOOOO....said...

fact is this...they've underachieved for years now...and if you blame it soley on Bowa (he certainly didn't help)...then you don't know what you are talking about...

The difference between Bowa and Leyland are simple...Leyland commands respect...while Bowa thinks respect comes out of laying people out...

Leyland would have been perfect IMO...hell...he'd be perfect for any team...

As far as making the moves Looooo...said...There comes a time when you shift focus...

I see Pavano as a Millwood type guy...certainly no #1...and really not a whole lot of history to suggest that last year's first half is any indication of his future...but...Pavano would have helped...

Thome isn't a leader in a clear sense...he goes out and performs for sure...but he's not the damn guy that you look at to get the steam flowing...Abreu is a stud at times...but again...not a guy you build a team around...

Burrell...had 1 great season...and there will be no more to be had...unless he finds a DH job somewhere...and even then...they should have dealt him LAST year...but they let him get hurt first...

You never know...but I just can't see them contending this year...and Lieber and Lofton as their pickups are...well...jokish...

[TLR]

Hey, who invited a bitter Tribe guy to discuss anything Phils-related!? :-)

Your point about whether he's a great hitting coach on his own merit or whether it's due to the players he's working with is shaky, at best. You could make that argument for just about anyone in coaching. You are only as good as the talent surrounding you. For example (in a slightly different vein) is Mazzone a great pitching coach? I'm not sure if it's that or if it was because of Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, etc. I know he rebuilt Jaret Wright, etc...but, Manuel could probably lay claim to doing the same thing with a hitter(s) somewhere along the line...?

Trust me, I'm not jumping for joy that they hired Manuel. But, they sure need to try SOMETHING different...

[POJO_Risin]

They should be in the mix for Hudson...

[POJO_Risin]

You'll see what I mean shortly...

The guy knows the game as well as anybody...and amazingly enough...handles the game shabbily...

He totally mismanaged the Indians in his year and a half there...then demanded a contract extension mid year...and they canned him...lmfao...

You went from a micromanager...to a hayseed who makes moves based on the planter's moon...

[TLR]

I don't know if they've underachieved for YEARS. I don't think much has been expected of them in the last 15 years until just this past 2 year stretch. Hell, Steve Jeltz was their shortstop for awhile...need I say more?

I'm not against Leyland...I'm just saying he's closer to being like Bowa than Manuel. I'm only reacting to what the organization/some players claim needed to be changed. They claim to want a laid-back guy...that wasn't Bowa and it isn't Leyland...regardless of the respect factor.

You pretty much echo what I said about Pavano...only think I didn't add to my original post was what you said about his lack of a solid track record.

We all must be on different planets regarding Thome. Everything I'VE heard or read points to him being THE man in the clubhouse. I know we are at opposite ends of the spectrum about him, that's for sure!

Jokish may be the PERFECT words for their "high profile" off-season moves. That almost makes me want to puke...

[TLR]

Originally posted by TLR
Yep, they could very well still end up with His Unitness. However, Finley is lobbying for him to come to Anaheim now.

I'm crossing my fingers they don't have enough bullets in their gun to TRADE for a lefty. That leaves them with not much on the free agent market to choose from.

I hope Beane trades Hudson to Philly. Package the big free agent signee (Lieber) for him! Are you kidding me? John Lieber as their #1. Great...

Bingo with the Hudson reference. Look above. I was already thinking that....

"Hayseed" "Planters moon" Outstanding...lmao

[POJO_Risin]

As far as developing hitters...

well...He was working with Thome, whom he turned into a strict power hitter who's a dead pull hitter...when he was a good power hitter...who hit for average and to all fields as a young guy...I'm not saying he ruined Thome...lmfao...but he did change the facet of his game...

He destroyed Baerga...fucking around with his stance when he went into a slump the year before Cleveland dealt him...of course it didn't help that Baerga's work ethic had a lot to do with McDonalds and Ho-Ho's...

Albert Belle could always hit...Manuel had nothing to do with his development...other than stay out of his way...and same with Manny...those two were absolute automatic for Cleveland and beyond...until Belle started getting injured with a wind shift...

Lofton may be one of those guys that he "built" into a great leadoff hitter...

My point is this...as a manager...it's not your job to fuck with your hitters...that's why you have a batting coach...

if that's why they brought him in...lmfao...then they already fucked up...

if he's worrying about his hitters...and fucking around with them...lmfao...then who the fuck is going to manage the team?

And wait until you see him yank around his pitching staff...lmfao...

you may actually want Bowa back by the time it's done...

[POJO_Risin]

My years comment was basically the years since Thome...when they made some moves to contend with the new stadium...

They've made some hefty moves that have blown up in their face...

Thome isn't bad in the clubhouse...that's not what I was saying...

What Thome is is a positive guy...no downside to him...good in the clubhouse for sure in that he's always trying to win...but he's not a vocal leader by any stretch...

he goes out every day and plays the game the way it should be played...hard...and he does it well...

He was a third baseman to start with Cleveland...and loved it...developed into a serviceable one as well...and was getting better...

Cleveland had a shot at getting Matt Williams and he volunteered to move to first to give Williams the 3B slot...for the team...

then developed into a decent first baseman quickly...

I think you could build a team around him...however...if you are looking for a rah-rah guy to rally the troops...he's not the one...

[TLR]

I NEVER WANTED BOWA GONE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hell, none of us should kid ourselves here. By the time these guys get to the bigs as hitters, they aren't listening to much of anything that anyone says to them anyways.

As for him yanking around the pitching staff...well, he may not have much of a choice with what he has to work with! That rotation appears to be dotted with #3 starters...*groan* Maybe Wagner can pitch the 6-9 every single night of the year...

[POJO_Risin]

If I were Philly...I'd be doing everything right now to land Hudson...everything...

a legit stopper...a legit #1 guy right there...and that rotation would fall into place...

of course...he's a free agent at the end of 2005...so...it's also a gamble...and it doesn't look like the Phillies gamble much...

but you get Hudson...and their season changes...and their other starters fall into place...

[TLR]

Ok, now I'm understanding what you are trying to say about Thome. I couldn't figure out what you were trying to say in the earlier posts...

Did you know (and I'm sure you do) that Thome was initially a SHORTSTOP after he signed? Hard to believe, for sure...

[TLR]

Ok, geez...now you've got me all excited about something I gave just a brief, fleeting thought to earlier...Tim Hudson. I know he's a free agent after this year. But, they DID make that same kind of gamble when they traded for Wagner. He wasn't signed past this year when they made that deal. It gives me a glimmer of hope.

That rotation WOULD fall into place if they could pick up a LEGIT #1 (not some pseudo #1 like Milldud). It could be:

1. Hudson
2. Wolf
3. Lieber
4. Padilla
5. Lidle
? Myers

Speaking of...and I haven't been able to find much about this...what the hell went on with them not trying to re-sign Milton or his lack of interest? That one has me mildly stumped (even though some of his #s weren't that great...ERA, for example)...

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah...he was a shortstop clear up to getting signed...then Cleveland immediately moved him to third...

He used to be pretty wiry as a kid...but he had no range...even then...

[POJO_Risin]

I'm sure it was a mutual deal...but I know Milton immediately said he was going to look elsewhere for a big money deal...

I'm not sure though...

maybe LOOOOO knows...

[ALinChainz]

The Yanks are after Milton, I haven't heard anything lately.

But nabbing up Wright and close to nailing Pavano now I guess for 4 years and $39 million will be solid.

Lots of teams interested in Hudson for sure.

[TLR]

Yeah, and he's nowhere to be found at the moment...

That one just had me confused. Their offer seemed to be PRETTY much in line with what other teams had floated to him. Oh, well...I think he gave up 147 HRs last year anyways...

I like how this thread morphed into a Phillies discussion! lol

[POJO_Risin]

That would be like the Yanks to sign Milton, Pavano and Wright...lmfao...

That's what they need...freakin' 20 starters...

how about 43 dingers TLR...I think that's what he gave up...

[TLR]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
The Yanks are after Milton, I haven't heard anything lately.

But nabbing up Wright and close to nailing Pavano now I guess for 4 years and $39 million will be solid.

Lots of teams interested in Hudson for sure.

That would be the lefty I said earlier that they needed. That would give them about 7 starters, though. Don't see it happening after the Wright/Pavano deals you mentioned.

The Yanks will probably sign Milton and then get involved in 3-way deals for both Hudson and Johnson. Meanwhile, not giving away anything other than Miguel Cairo and Steve Karsay. That would be typical for me to have to suffer through...

[TLR]

Pojo...

I knew there was a 4 in there SOMEWHERE. lmao

[POJO_Risin]

It was a bunch...and a what...4.35 ERA?

[TLR]

I don't know off the top of my head and I am not motivated to go in search of it, but I'm thinking it was even higher than 4.35...

[Lou]

The Phillies signing Tim Hudson, in my opinion, is like an extra 5 wins on their record. That's the difference between making the playoffs and not making the playoffs. Tim Hudson alone would instantly make this a great offseason.

But they're not going to do it. And I don't think it's so much a money issue as it is THEY WON'T TAKE CHANCES. If you offered the A's Chase Utley and a pitching prospect (either Floyd or Hamels) I bet the A's would do it. The Phillies won't make any ballsy move like that.

And BTW, no one will take Bobby Abreu w/o the Phillies picking up part of his enormous contract. Same goes with Pat Burrell, he's no longer good enough to warrant that contract. Same for Thome if they wanted to trade him. And same for Mike Lieberthal who's pretty much untradeable. That's another problem for the Phillies, catcher. Oh I forgot, they resigned 37 year old Todd Pratt as insurance for Lieby :rolleyes:

The Phillies are an organization that go halfway and hope. They go halfway on payroll, and they go halfway on making moves. They know they don't have enough on the face of things, and they just hope for everyone to have career years. It's a piss-poor philosophy that won't change until we get new ownership.

I personally am livid at the moves, or lack thereof, that they made. I'm not excited about this season at all. I'm not going down to any games (I went to a ton of games in 2003 and then a couple of games last year) and I'm not watching them on TV even though nothing else is on. They disgust me.

[TLR]

Well, I'll still watch 'em. They're my favorite team, afterall. I WISH I was lucky enough to be close enough to go to more than 2-3 games per year.

I won't/can't disagree with most of what you said.

-They DO need catching help...that's why they drafted a ton of it this past year...hopefully someone will pan out.

-They historically don't make the blockbuster type of deal you reference, unfortunately.

-They shouldn't even consider trading Abreu, in my opinion. They could, though...his contract isn't staggering given today's market. A couple years have run off it as well.

-I don't know what they could expect to get in return by trying to trade Burrell...I can't picture him bringing much at this point (2 sub-par years and a wrist injury that leaves him who-knows-where).

-I don't know how wise it would be to trade Floyd or Hamels (unless it was, for example, for Hudson, who would agree to sign long-term prior to a deal). They gave away a significant amount of prospects this past year in a busted, half-ass attempt to make some moves to show their "commitment." The well is running a bit dry right now...

[Lou]

Quick question...when was the last time a pitcher has come up entirely through the Phillies organization, and made at least two all-star teams?

I know the answer to this, because I heard it on WIP the other night.

Chris Short. FORTY YEARS AGO.

So don't worry about these prospects they have. How many of them really pan out?

Even the hitters...the only true dynamite player that's come up entirely through their organization since 1985 is Scott Rolen. Lieberthal had the one year with 30 HR's. Estrada did well last year but that's one year. Burrell had pretty much one monster year and hasn't done shit the last two years. Chase Utley looks good but he's not established. You hear about all these "jewels" and how many of them pan out? Not many. What's more common is the Wes Chamberlains, Ricky Jordans and Glenn Murphys.

[TLR]

Lou, you ARE a Phillies fan for sure! lol I guess I'm just not as "doom and gloom" as the native PA fans.

I wouldn't have known the answer to your question without you supplying it. Interesting. One way to look at it: sooner or later one HAS to come along, hopefully.

As for dynamite players rising through the organization...here's one: Jimmy Rollins. I know all about his perceived downside (at least in the past-this past year might have gone toward putting that to rest), but he is an impact player.

I can't believe I just read Wes Chamberlain's name! LOL

[Lou]

OK, Rollins is a very good shortstop, I forgot.

My opinion with Ryan Howard is that if he's already 25 years old and can't crack the bigs, he's not going to be anything more than a bench player. Therefore they have to trade him. But no, they like the idea of hanging onto him just so they can say, "Look at who we have in the minors!"

[Warham]

Mr. Sosa goes to Washington?

December 12, 2004

BY MIKE KILEY Staff Reporter Advertisement


ANAHEIM, Calif. --There is no city that believes in clout more than Washington. So it should come as no surprise that the soon-to-be Washington Nationals have told the Cubs they are interested in pursuing a trade for slugger Sammy Sosa.

Nationals general manager Jim Bowden would like to make an instant splash after the Montreal Expos move to the nation's capital. What better attraction than bringing Sosa to the same town as President Bush, who likes to joke that his biggest mistake as the owner of the Texas Rangers was trading a young, unproven Sosa to the White Sox in 1989.

Cubs general manager Jim Hendry has had what he described as "two to three clubs'' approach him during the winter meetings to express an interest in acquiring Sosa. One of those teams is the Kansas City Royals. The biggest attraction for Sosa with the Royals would be former Cubs hitting coach Jeff Pentland, who has the same job in Kansas City. Sosa became a megastar under Pentland's tutelage, smacking 66 home runs in 1998 and 63 in 1999.

But it seems a no-brainer that Sosa would prefer the glamor of Washington, where the movers and shakers would welcome a talent and celebrity of his magnitude and help to establish the Nationals as a club to watch.

Sosa was an occasional visitor to Washington during former President Bill Clinton's administration. After he and former St. Louis Cardinals slugger Mark McGwire electrified the nation with their home-run exploits in 1998, Clinton invited Sosa to his State of the Union address. Sosa personally was recognized by the president in the hallowed halls of government, a heady experience for a boy raised in poverty in the Dominican Republic.

The applause was deafening then, and Sosa could be expected to get a lot more of that with his long-ball ability. With 574 major-league homers, Sosa also will garner a lot of attention as he nears 600. This is the kind of publicity that would suit a club trying to lay down roots.

If Hendry and Bowden can agree on a trade that includes Sosa, there is another important step to determine if the deal can happen. Agent Adam Katz probably will have to agree to adjust the clause in Sosa's contract that says Sosa is guaranteed $18 million for 2006 if he is traded. The Cubs are committed to Sosa for $17 million in 2005 and have a $4.5 million buyout for 2006.

"I'd say two to three clubs have talked to me that I had not spoken to about him before I got here,'' Hendry said.

In other words, the New York Mets aren't in this group. Hendry began having talks last month about Sosa with Mets general manager Omar Minaya, but sources say the Mets and Cubs haven't met about Sosa at these meetings. Minaya happened to be on an elevator Saturday with Chicago media members en route to Hendry's room for the daily briefing. Minaya jokingly was asked if he wanted to come, and he laughed.

Sosa was eager to go to New York in June 2000, when the Cubs were trying to trade him to the Yankees, but Washington fits Sosa's cultural interests every bit as much as New York. So that alone makes this seem to be a deal that makes sense for both sides.

The Cubs lost out on their pursuit of Milwaukee Brewers closer Dan Kolb, who was traded Saturday to the Atlanta Braves for top pitching prospect Jose Capellan. The deal frees John Smoltz to return to the Braves' rotation.

"I spoke to [Brewers general manager] Doug [Melvin] on a few occasions about Kolb,'' Hendry said. "We made him an offer I think he'd tell you he was pleased with. He just felt he got something [from the Braves] that he couldn't pass up.''

Hendry denied a report that he was considering making an offer to free-agent first baseman Richie Sexson and planned to return him to his old position in left field. Sexson likely is too rich for the Cubs' blood.

"We have accomplished a lot here,'' Hendry said. "We have looked at different alternatives for potential left-handed hitters in the outfield. We have looked at extra-infielder, utility-type guys. We have talked to a few clubs about their interest in our players. There is a lot of interest in the pitching depth we have, especially the younger arms. Some things might turn out to be trades down the road.''

[TLR]

Originally posted by Lou
OK, Rollins is a very good shortstop, I forgot.

My opinion with Ryan Howard is that if he's already 25 years old and can't crack the bigs, he's not going to be anything more than a bench player. Therefore they have to trade him. But no, they like the idea of hanging onto him just so they can say, "Look at who we have in the minors!"

You might be right with Howard. However, maybe the can end up trading Burrell for someone significant and then move Howard to LF. He did give that position a shot in the AFL. Don't know how it ended up, though...

[POJO_Risin]

That deal makes sense...although I wouldn't want that damn cancer starting off in my clubhouse...but it will get people to the games...for awhile...

until they catch him with Cork again...

I wonder when we find out he did Roids?

[TLR]

Stay tuned. He's flown along under the radar screen (somehow) so far...

[POJO_Risin]

2 reasons TLR...

people realized what a prick he really is/was...

and people realize he more than likely is part of the roid scandal...even without BALCO...

he looks at least as big as Bonds compared to when he was younger...

[TLR]

I was just going to say that: If you compare pics of him as a younger player to what he looks like now, it is eerie in similarity to the transformation Bonds has undergone: mass, head size, jaw pronunciation/size, etc. It's disappointing...

[High Life Man]

Podsednik and Viscaino and PTBNL for Carlos Lee.

Interesting as Pods was a fan favorite, but whose number dropped significantly this year. Fast a hell though...

Lee brings power between Overbay and Jenkins.

I hear the kid we got from Atlanta had scouts salivating and Melvin thinks he can be our #1, even over Sheets.

The weird thing is, we traded Kolb because Viscaino was being touted as our next closer. I wonder who it'll be now?

[redblkwht]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
That deal makes sense...although I wouldn't want that damn cancer starting off in my clubhouse...but it will get people to the games...for awhile...

until they catch him with Cork again...

I wonder when we find out he did Roids?
Ive read that his roids are brought in the the dominican,
no scandal here, just illegal..
they say the ones he does are more powerful too, thats why the clubhouse rage was alive in 2003.
another reason they banned his
assistant in the beginning of the year, along with others
on othe MLB teamsearly 2003..rumor has it that guy was going into
dominican weekly for the stuff..
true? i dunno, i read it somewhere in espn forums, I don't doubt it..

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Anyone mention the Buccos most likely grabbing the 'roid fiend Benito Santiago from the Royals ??

Gotta love those trades for nearly 40 year old catchers....

Where's my Glock.... ;)

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
but it will get people to the games...for awhile...

The absolute name of the game for that team year one.

Sellouts. Hard telling how they'll play, but asses in the seats will be paramount.

[POJO_Risin]

And just like that...the rumors start coming up about Washington LOSING the team...

lmfao...baseball just does 1 good thing after another...

[POJO_Risin]

And the rumors start about Redman and Lawton...

Littlefield is supposedly not done...

[POJO_Risin]

Sexson to the M's...

[POJO_Risin]

And of course...Pedro to the Mets...

Are you kidding me? How does that fucking guy get that kind of money at this stage of the game...

[POJO_Risin]

Matt Clement's agent should be given a bonus...just by waiting...he has teams salivating...lmfao...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
And the rumors start about Redman and Lawton...

Littlefield is supposedly not done...

I've seen nothing on that bro...

I know they've got some spare change left after they trade for Santiago, trying to get either a 1B or RF....

[POJO_Risin]

It was on CNN/SI yesterday...that Lawton was secretly being shopped, but "it was more likely that Redman would be dealt first."

It was under a banner saying, Littlefield makes great moves, and they'll only get better...

something like that...

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
And of course...Pedro to the Mets...

Are you kidding me? How does that fucking guy get that kind of money at this stage of the game...

who.s perdo....

fuck that guy....he,s a bitch, he said RESECT. the sox gave him respect
and the bitch went to ny...i'm just glad it wasnt the yankee's

that would have been a slap in the face


but anyway..go red sox

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
It was on CNN/SI yesterday...that Lawton was secretly being shopped, but "it was more likely that Redman would be dealt first."

It was under a banner saying, Littlefield makes great moves, and they'll only get better...

something like that...

No shit ?? Damn, I thought my research is usually pretty damn good.... ;)

[tjvhou812]

red sox get clement from cubs

[Roth & Roll]

Clement could blossom in Fenway, his arm is not an issue. He's got nasty stuff. The questions about Clement revolve around his mental makeup. If he can handle the pressure of pitching in Boston with all the intense media scrutiny then the Red Sox just got themselves a heck of a deal for $8 million a year - the same money Moonshot Milton is demanding.

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by Roth & Roll
Clement could blossom in Fenway, his arm is not an issue. He's got nasty stuff. The questions about Clement revolve around his mental makeup. If he can handle the pressure of pitching in Boston with all the intense media scrutiny then the Red Sox just got themselves a heck of a deal for $8 million a year - the same money Moonshot Milton is demanding.

right you are my brotha....

now if they can get perez, they would be in good shape

[POJO_Risin]

You guys really like the staff though?

if they get Perez...you have Schilling...who's health is a question...

Wells...old as fuck...

Clement...many questions...

and Perez...many questions...

not saying that's a bad rotation...but it's not even really an upgrade from last year?

and if the Yanks get RJ...that lines them up...and the Sox will be in trouble...they should have went after Hudson...

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
And of course...Pedro to the Mets...

Are you kidding me? How does that fucking guy get that kind of money at this stage of the game...

How about Pedro shooting off his mouth about how much "above" Schilling he is. Blasting the Sox for the negotiating tactics.

The A's deal Mulder to St. Louis. Incredible. They must have pitchers oozing from their farm system.

[POJO_Risin]

You know...what would be nice...

a guy who leaves who says, "Thanks..."

What a fuckhead...

and to think they booed Clemens against this piece of shit...

[Igosplut]

That was a classy answer from Theo about it though.

Sure as shit glad the Sox didn't pay him for that long, I really think he's on his declining years. And I would say that wells is a upgrade from Lowe...That is if he doesn't fall on any more wine glasses...

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
You guys really like the staff though?

if they get Perez...you have Schilling...who's health is a question...

Wells...old as fuck...

Clement...many questions...

and Perez...many questions...

not saying that's a bad rotation...but it's not even really an upgrade from last year?

and if the Yanks get RJ...that lines them up...and the Sox will be in trouble...they should have went after Hudson...

well rj is coming back to the american league.....

he is not going to pitch as good as he did in the national league...

but he still will be a factor....

and the sox are trying....
they have a pretty good starting rotation..

and they have a good bullpen.....

[tjvhou812]

jason varitek just signed 4 years 40 million dollars
w/the world champs, boston red sox....

they needed him that was big

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah...suprisingly enough...it was quiet...

funny though...Varitek is good...but 10 mill a year is a lot to pay a catcher heading into the years catcher's generally decline...

either way...it's important to get him back...

[POJO_Risin]

No doubt Pedro is declining...and no way I'd pay him that kind of money...

[tjvhou812]

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Yeah...suprisingly enough...it was quiet...

funny though...Varitek is good...but 10 mill a year is a lot to pay a catcher heading into the years catcher's generally decline...

either way...it's important to get him back...

i agree that it was alot of money...
but it was a must......

[ALinChainz]

LHP Eric Milton gets $25.5 million, three-year deal from Reds

By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer

December 27, 2004


CINCINNATI (AP) -- The Yankees came calling on Eric Milton, willing to peel some bills out of their bulging money clip. The big-budget Red Sox and Dodgers also were interested in adding the left-hander to their playoff-caliber clubs.

In the end, he made a surprising choice: the late-arriving small-market Cincinnati Reds.

Milton agreed to a $25.5 million, three-year deal on Monday with a team that was late into the bidding and seemed an unlikely match for a pitcher who yearns to get back to the playoffs.

``I wouldn't be sitting here today if I didn't think we have a real chance of winning,'' Milton said.

The Reds think so, too, and were willing to structure his contract so he can leave if they don't win during his first two seasons. Milton got a $4 million signing bonus and base salaries of $4 million in 2005, $8.5 million in 2006 and $9 million in 2007, matching the total value of Matt Clement's deal with Boston.

After the 2006 season, Milton has the option of staying for the final year of the deal or going somewhere else.

``I want to be on a winner,'' Milton said. ``That was a big key for me going into this whole free agent thing. I think this team is headed in the right direction now, and hopefully in the next couple of years we'll keep improving.''

They've got a long way to go before they're a contender in the NL Central with the Cardinals, Astros and Cubs, but their moves in the past two weeks should make them much more competitive.

The Reds have gone four straight years without a winning season, their longest such stretch since 1945-55. They lost 93 games in 2003, their first season at Great American Ball Park, and cannibalized the team during a midseason trading spree to save money.

They were a little better last season, going 76-86 despite injuries that cost them Ken Griffey Jr., Austin Kearns and Sean Casey. The biggest problem was the pitching staff, which by most measures was the worst in franchise history. The Reds allowed a club-record 907 runs -- most in the majors -- and 236 homers, only three shy of the NL record.

Milton, 29, was Philadelphia's most consistent starter last season, going 14-6 with a 4.75 ERA. The Phillies decided not to offer salary arbitration to Milton, who made $9 million last season, and Kevin Millwood.

The Reds were one of the latecomers in talks with Milton, who was contacted by about six teams.

``I was very surprised,'' Milton said. ``They had not been very active in the past.''

Once they decided to go after him, they did it all-out. Casey, closer Danny Graves and starter Paul Wilson called Milton, and manager Dave Miley offered to drive down to his home in Florida for lunch.

``Things changed from week to week,'' Milton said. ``New teams came up, and teams dropped out and went in different directions. Once they got into the mix, they were pretty relentless. It just made me feel really wanted, that's for sure.''

Milton gives the Reds a proven left-hander in a rotation that desperately needed one. He went 71-57 with a 4.76 ERA in 200 appearances with Minnesota and Philadelphia, made the AL All-Star team in 2001, and went 1-0 with a 1.65 ERA with the Twins in the 2002 and 2003 playoffs.

Milton also pitched the fifth no-hitter in Twins' history on Sept. 11, 1999, striking out a career-high 13 Angels.

The Reds went into the offseason with a lot of holes to fill, especially on the pitching staff. Milton waited to see if they were serious about improving.

They kept Wilson, their top starter, by offering a two-year, $8.2 million deal, acquired right-handed starter Ramon Ortiz from Anaheim, and upgraded the bullpen with David Weathers, Ben Weber and Kent Mercker. They also filled their vacancy at third base by signing Joe Randa to a one-year, $2.15 million deal.

At that point, the Reds felt good about their chances of getting Milton, who wanted to play near the East Coast to be close to his Florida home. He was convinced.

``He did his homework,'' general manager Dan O'Brien said. ``He had a pretty good idea about who and what we were all about. So with that in mind, we felt very good about our chances. We were very aggressive in our approach and pursuit.''

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oDMTBpNWZic251BF9TAzI1NjY0ODI1BHNlYwN0 aA--?slug=ap-reds-milton&prov=ap&type=lgns (AP Story