WOW! I'm following this one!

[DrMaddVibe]

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42112

[Flash Bastard]

Interesting.

[Little_Skittles]

wow another version of the "truth" what next?

[Carmine]

That was obvious from the beginning. Its about time someone told the truth!

[DrMaddVibe]

Gives a new meaning to "Let's Roll" and the tape recorded messages that the famlies were allowed to listen to.

[FORD]

Liars eventually slip up. Rummy's no exception.

[ODShowtime]

I know we shot that plane down, but in this context it looks like a simple misstatement.

He said "they" shot down the plane. "They" in this case would really be "us" if Rummy was speaking any bit of truth. "They" made us shoot down the plane, but "they" certainly did not shoot the plane down themselves.

The fact that so many people don't believe him and are willing to call him on this is a tremendous indictment of Rumsfeld. He's finished. Or at least in a reality-based administration he would be.

[Big Train]

Its really a statement of how many people WANT to believe this to be true, instead of the horrific facts that are the truth. If it was Rummy and friends, it seems more actionable than some remote terrorists who are now dead. Let's drag a body, SOME body, through the street..

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
Its really a statement of how many people WANT to believe this to be true, instead of the horrific facts that are the truth. If it was Rummy and friends, it seems more actionable than some remote terrorists who are now dead. Let's drag a body, SOME body, through the street..


Train, no sensible person would be upset at the Gov't for downing flight 93. Lying about it? That's completely different.

Answer me this, what does it say about Rumsfeld when people are jumping all over this?

[Big Train]

If they thought the government downed as part of the conspiracy, YES, they would be quite upset about it.

What does it say about people I say. We are in a war and I think people are more comfortable jumping all over a government type than having any hostility towards muslims perputrating these crimes.

[knuckleboner]

what a waste of an article. talk about trying to make something out of nothing. it was CLEARLY a misstatement.


there's NO evidence the plane got shot down. and what's more, it would've only BENEFITED the government to be able to have claimed that it was able to react in time for 1 of the 4 planes.

it's current assertion is that it was caught off guard for all 4.



almost certainly what happened was the passengers DID hear that other planes were crashed into buildings. knowning their alternative was death, they rushed the cockpit. without strong cockpit doors, the 4 hijackers couldn't keep them out, and had no bombs, no guns, only boxcutters as weapons. not enough. so, either the hijackers lost control of the plane and it went into a dive, or, knowing they would lose to the passengers, they did the dive intentionally. why? because prior to 9/11, merely crashing 1 passenger plane with 40+ people onboard into an empty field and killing them all, would've been the 2nd largest terrorist attack in U.S. history.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
If they thought the government downed as part of the conspiracy, YES, they would be quite upset about it.

What does it say about people I say. We are in a war and I think people are more comfortable jumping all over a government type than having any hostility towards muslims perputrating these crimes.

The gov't could have shot it down and lied and the only conspiracy was that they lied about shooting it down. They did shoot it down and did lie about it.

And believe me, I've seen PLENTY of hostility towards muslims and arabs since 9-11.

[Big Train]

The people attacking rumsfeld are liberal PC types mostly (and YES, I know about the generals). They would rather feel hatred towards a white man than a muslim. Helps with their superiority complex.

Flight 93 was NOT shot down, nor is there conclusive evidence to prove such a claim.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
Flight 93 was NOT shot down, nor is there conclusive evidence to prove such a claim.

What evidence is there to prove it wasn't shot down that hasn't passed through the gov't's hands?

[Big Train]

OD,

We have been up and down this road SEVERAL times. The experts all agree it wasn't shot down, only various amateurs seem to disagree.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
OD,

We have been up and down this road SEVERAL times. The experts all agree it wasn't shot down, only various amateurs seem to disagree.

No shit. Just like how you choose to ignore the shareholder fraud class-action suit at Halliburton, I choose to ignore the "facts" on flight 93.

[DEMON CUNT]

FOX NEWS tells me all I need to know. The experts have spoken and it went down exactly as the government has told you it happened.

We all know governments never lie! Praise the Lard!

Now we may proceed with the PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY (http://www.newamericancentury.org/)!!!

[Cathedral]

Innocent until "proven" guilty mean anything to anyone?

Assumptions are hardly a case to prove a damn thing.

That said, I never liked Rumsfeld and never will. The man needs to just resign because the Liberal Witch Hunt will continue and only serve to stall the real work Washington needs to be getting done.

It just doesn't make any sense to me that people think the Government does all the bad things liberal minds claim it does, and without consequence. it makes even less sense to me that anyone thinks that either party is better than the other.
Both sides of the isle have their own agendas that split this country in half and it only makes us weak as a Nation, therefore contributing to our own demise in the big picture.

I no longer see either side working to find common ground on any issue anymore. If things don't go their way there is no compromise and obstruction is the first tool that is reached for, and that goes for both party's.

It's gonna fuck us again and again until we understand that there is truth in the phrase "United We Stand, Divided We Fall".

Oh, and if half of the conspiracies i have read about on this site were based in fact, I would be the first to stand up and say "Prosecute Them" to the fullest extent of the law.
Clinton was taken to task over a Blow Job because there was factual proof that he engaged in those acts while in the oval office, so i know there are people who can bring legitimate charges against those who commit crimes from within our Government.
Just because a writer can package his "assumptions" in a nice article doesn't make it true.

I do get a little concerned that so many people make themselves both judge and jury when they are only sourced info from the media.
Have we learned nothing about the lies the media spreads and how the news organizations operate?

I know i can't trust a majority of what i see on the tube or read in the paper.
Maybe that's why our only source for good news is a Bible in todays times.
At least the trials and tribulations we endure can lead to eternal life, if we believe and surrender to God...unless you don't even believe in that, then what hope is there, really?

I have no faith in man at all, except for myself that is, and even that is questionable at times because i'm only human.
It may help for people to remember that politicians are only human as well...it's their agendas that seperate them from everyone else.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
No shit. Just like how you choose to ignore the shareholder fraud class-action suit at Halliburton, I choose to ignore the "facts" on flight 93.

I have ignored NOTHING and I am waiting for real evidence. I'm just not first in line at the conspirarcy stand, like you.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
I have ignored NOTHING and I am waiting for real evidence. I'm just not first in line at the conspirarcy stand, like you.


Dude, I'm WAY behind some people in here. You attribute all sorts of bullshit to me.

I guesss you haven't noticed the secrecy in which this administration cloaks its work. You're never going to get the kind of evidence that will persuade you.

[Big Train]

OD, I attribute SOME crap to you. You do wave it around and back up some of these theories others post.

I think you give too much credit to the boogeyman in the government and not enough on fact. If there is not enough fact for ME, how do you expect "justice"? Or have you deduced that the government and everyone in it will always be above the law with their "cloak of secrecy"? As I believe ford said eariler in this thread, liars eventually stumble. Be patient, if any of what is being said has any merit it will come out in the wash. To date, it has not, so until evidence changes, I don't agree.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
OD,

We have been up and down this road SEVERAL times. The experts all agree it wasn't shot down, only various amateurs seem to disagree.


Loungemachine = various amateur

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Innocent until "proven" guilty mean anything to anyone?
.

Certainly not at git-mo.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
what a waste of an article. talk about trying to make something out of nothing. it was CLEARLY a misstatement.


there's NO evidence the plane got shot down. and what's more, it would've only BENEFITED the government to be able to have claimed that it was able to react in time for 1 of the 4 planes.

it's current assertion is that it was caught off guard for all 4.




Good point.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
I think you give too much credit to the boogeyman in the government and not enough on fact.

have you deduced that the government and everyone in it will always be above the law with their "cloak of secrecy"?

If greed, smugness and complacency can explain it, it's a good explanation as far as I'm concerned. No matter what topic is being discussed.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
If greed, smugness and complacency can explain it, it's a good explanation as far as I'm concerned. No matter what topic is being discussed.

Yea, thats a sound way to approach things like justice. What does the Constitution know anyway?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
Yea, thats a sound way to approach things like justice. What does the Constitution know anyway?


I'm no fool. I never said anything about doing anything about this tragic event.

Of course there's nowhere near enough evidence to try anyone in any court, well except maybe if John Ashcroft got pissed off.

Man you sure love to underestimate me. geeze.

[Big Train]

No, you sure love to back up from your statements when pressed.

I'd never underestimate OD, your a bright guy.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
No, you sure love to back up from your statements when pressed.

I'd never underestimate OD, your a bright guy.

Well thanks for the compliment. "guy" even, not "kid"

This statement:

"If greed, smugness and complacency can explain it, it's a good explanation as far as I'm concerned. No matter what topic is being discussed.

shows how I formulate the most reasonable explanation for events cloaked in mystery. For my own understanding. We talk about conspiracy this and conspiracy that, but I try to be a realist. Anyone with enough power to set such events in motion isn't going to be dislodged from power by anything less than a full popular uprising. I'm no mahatma ghandi, so I bitch about it, smoke some and say "fuck it." that's me. I'm apathetic. This bullshit election made me MUCH worse on this.

Maybe it's the striking out across the country and landing your dream job (I know, not yet, but you're on your way) that gives you the false impression that you can actually change things in this country, I don't know. But I don't share your outlook.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Certainly not at git-mo.

I don't agree with whats going on there myself, but it isn't exactly American soil so the rights afforded our citizens do not apply there.

But we aren't beheading the prisoners either...I'm not at all sure what purpose it ultimately serves, lol.

Maybe we should just toss out the Geneva Convention and fight fire with hotter fire.
While we're at it, lets just eliminate due-process all together here at home and hang people for claims made in articles, i mean as long as it reads well enough to allow ignorance of the facts.

We all appear to be the Ultimate Jury with the way we all see things from totally different perspectives, yet cannot come to terms on a conclusion.
The epitomy of a "Hung Jury" can be witnessed in this forum, daily, lmmfao.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I don't agree with whats going on there myself, but it isn't exactly American soil so the rights afforded our citizens do not apply there.

But we aren't beheading the prisoners either...I'm not at all sure what purpose it ultimately serves, lol.

Maybe we should just toss out the Geneva Convention and fight fire with hotter fire.
While we're at it, lets just eliminate due-process all together here at home and hang people for claims made in articles, i mean as long as it reads well enough to allow ignorance of the facts.

We all appear to be the Ultimate Jury with the way we all see things from totally different perspectives, yet cannot come to terms on a conclusion.
The epitomy of a "Hung Jury" can be witnessed in this forum, daily, lmmfao.

I knew my post would push your button, but frankly I thought you'd come down alot harder than you did.

As to the rest of your post., I wholeheartily agree. With a wink and a nod.

Roth on Cath.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
The people attacking rumsfeld are liberal PC types mostly (and YES, I know about the generals). They would rather feel hatred towards a white man than a muslim. Helps with their superiority complex.

Flight 93 was NOT shot down, nor is there conclusive evidence to prove such a claim.


What a revelation! I thought I was one of the people attacking Rumsfeld because he based the invasion of Iraq on false intelligence regarding WMD's,or because he invaded Iraq with insufficient forces and false expectations on how Iraqis would respond.Then I thought I liked him even less when he blew off a soldier asking about armor for vehicles,and then went to Iraq on Christmas like a whipped (by Dubya) dog with his tail between his legs expressing "emotions" that seemed to escape him on his previous encounter with troops.
But that's not it at all! I don't like Rummy because I am so consumed with wanting to be politically correct that I don't want to attack Muslims and would rather attack a white guy to feed my "superiority complex".
The worst part is that there are other white people in the Bush administration I don't care much for either, so I'm in worse shape than I thought.
Will my obsession with being PC ever end? Will I ever satisfy the the ravenous hunger of my "superiority complex"? I had no idea my psyche was in such a fucking mess!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by blueturk
What a revelation! I thought I was one of the people attacking Rumsfeld because he based the invasion of Iraq on false intelligence regarding WMD's,or because he invaded Iraq with insufficient forces and false expectations on how Iraqis would respond.Then I thought I liked him even less when he blew off a soldier asking about armor for vehicles,and then went to Iraq on Christmas like a whipped (by Dubya) dog with his tail between his legs expressing "emotions" that seemed to escape him on his previous encounter with troops.
But that's not it at all! I don't like Rummy because I am so consumed with wanting to be politically correct that I don't want to attack Muslims and would rather attack a white guy to feed my "superiority complex".
The worst part is that there are other white people in the Bush administration I don't care much for either, so I'm in worse shape than I thought.
Will my obsession with being PC ever end? Will I ever satisfy the the ravenous hunger of my "superiority complex"? I had no idea my psyche was in such a fucking mess!

If it helps,

That makes me a bigger mess than you.:D

Leave it to BT to show me my shortcomings and issues

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
The people attacking rumsfeld are liberal PC types mostly (and YES, I know about the generals). They would rather feel hatred towards a white man than a muslim. Helps with their superiority complex.

Flight 93 was NOT shot down, nor is there conclusive evidence to prove such a claim.

Starting a "SAVE THE RUMMY" campaign there Train? Why don't you turn that statement into a bumper sticker.

The fact is that even many conservatives think Rummy is an imcompetent, cavilier oaf that deserves to be axed at the very least!
I think he should be put in prison! But hey, that's the "liberal PC in me.;)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Big Train
The people attacking rumsfeld are liberal PC types mostly (and YES, I know about the generals). They would rather feel hatred towards a white man than a muslim. Helps with their superiority complex.


Bollocks.

I don't buy this conspiracy theory but Rumsfeld is a cunt of the first order.

See the other thread http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14951

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ODShowtime]

Watch these morons. They'll wait until the absolute last minute to dump him. That way we look as stupid as possible to the world.

I'm relatively new to the political game, but his days have to be numbered.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Well thanks for the compliment. "guy" even, not "kid"

This statement:

"If greed, smugness and complacency can explain it, it's a good explanation as far as I'm concerned. No matter what topic is being discussed.

Anyone with enough power to set such events in motion isn't going to be dislodged from power by anything less than a full popular uprising. I'm apathetic.

Maybe it's the striking out across the country and landing your dream job (I know, not yet, but you're on your way) that gives you the false impression that you can actually change things in this country, I don't know. But I don't share your outlook.

I didn't realize that my outlook or my values,thanks for telling me. The FACT that I worked hard and got lucky was irrelevant in that scheme right?

I guess if somebody worked hard at finding some facts and those facts checked out, it wouldn't require a "popular uprising".

[Big Train]

Originally posted by blueturk
What a revelation! I thought I was one of the people attacking Rumsfeld because he based the invasion of Iraq on false intelligence regarding WMD's,or because he invaded Iraq with insufficient forces and false expectations on how Iraqis would respond.Then I thought I liked him even less when he blew off a soldier asking about armor for vehicles,and then went to Iraq on Christmas like a whipped (by Dubya) dog with his tail between his legs expressing "emotions" that seemed to escape him on his previous encounter with troops.
But that's not it at all! I don't like Rummy because I am so consumed with wanting to be politically correct that I don't want to attack Muslims and would rather attack a white guy to feed my "superiority complex".
The worst part is that there are other white people in the Bush administration I don't care much for either, so I'm in worse shape than I thought.
Will my obsession with being PC ever end? Will I ever satisfy the the ravenous hunger of my "superiority complex"? I had no idea my psyche was in such a fucking mess!


You are a complete fucking mess, but that's another story for another day. If you want rummy out for your previous more valid reasons (his decisions in the war-tactical mistakes), that is fine by me. When it is how you "feel" (for example, the manner in which he addressed the troops, a mistake in conversation or "slip up"), then it is a liberal complex.

And sesh that is not a conspiracy theory, it is my observation as a citizen of the US. When you start living over here, then you can add to the conversation.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
You

And sesh that is not a conspiracy theory, it is my observation as a citizen of the US. When you start living over here, then you can add to the conversation.

Damn, BT

Everytime I start to think you're not to the right of Limbaugh, you go and say something like this.

Half the reason we're in the mess we're in is we DIDNT listen to those outside of our country.

I personally respect and WANT opinions from non-Americans. It's that myopic "we're the fucking USA and no one will tell us what to do" attitude that causes so much hatred and animosity towards us.

For a right wing Neo Con Facist, you're still alright in my book.

But let Sesh weigh in. Shit he's better informed than most "YANKoffs" inhabiting this place.:D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Damn, BT

Everytime I start to think you're not to the right of Limbaugh, you go and say something like this.

Half the reason we're in the mess we're in is we DIDNT listen to those outside of our country.

I personally respect and WANT opinions from non-Americans. It's that myopic "we're the fucking USA and no one will tell us what to do" attitude that causes so much hatred and animosity towards us.

For a right wing Neo Con Facist, you're still alright in my book.

But let Sesh weigh in. Shit he's better informed than most "YANKoffs" inhabiting this place.:D

You nailed it Lounge! Yeah, but the French are our worst enemy because WE WERE wrong and not them!

BT gets a super-sized Freedom Fries from me, on the house!

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
I didn't realize that my outlook or my values,thanks for telling me. The FACT that I worked hard and got lucky was irrelevant in that scheme right?

Well, your recent history which I know about from you telling me coupled with comments you've made in the past about going to libertarian rallies and shit made me think you actually thought people can change things. Sorry if I was wrong, but I don't really care that much.

I guess if somebody worked hard at finding some facts and those facts checked out, it wouldn't require a "popular uprising".

You yourself have said repeatedly that if the facts were there able to be found, someone would have found them by now.

Certainly there are people who are tying their best with the motivation of a great career so it's not like everyone's all lazy. Second, as we've seen on this board, the administration can do HORRIBLE deeds and say HORRIBLE things and still the morons in this country eat it up. People are fuckin' stupid man. And gw&friends pray on that.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
You are a complete fucking mess, but that's another story for another day. If you want rummy out for your previous more valid reasons (his decisions in the war-tactical mistakes), that is fine by me. When it is how you "feel" (for example, the manner in which he addressed the troops, a mistake in conversation or "slip up"), then it is a liberal complex.

And sesh that is not a conspiracy theory, it is my observation as a citizen of the US. When you start living over here, then you can add to the conversation.

Damn BT, that first remark makes me think that you don't like me or something!
Anyway,when did I say that I "feel" (your inappropriate quotation marks) one way or another about a "mistake in conversation" or "slip up"?I realize that this thread was started on that premise,but I got home after it was well on it's way.I haven't mentioned the subject at all. I quoted and responded to your bizarre theory on why Rumsfeld is being attacked on some ( oh well,many) different fronts.
As for the vast difference in the way he spoke to troops on Christmas Eve as compared to his previous encounter in early December,those events speak for themselves.I feel sure that in the future Rumsfeld will follow the lead of the president (another white guy) ,and confine himself to " friendly" Q & A sessions from now on if possible.It's "the will of the people".

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Big Train


And sesh that is not a conspiracy theory, it is my observation as a citizen of the US. When you start living over here, then you can add to the conversation.

That's fucking bizarre, for once I agree with you and you attack my right to have an opinion...:)

In any case I don't post in many threads about US domestic policy but when my country get's dragged into a war because of your government I'll help enlighten you about what's actually going on in your country.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I knew my post would push your button, but frankly I thought you'd come down alot harder than you did.

As to the rest of your post., I wholeheartily agree. With a wink and a nod.

Roth on Cath.

I'm trying to be a more relaxed and mellow dude these days. Too many times have i posted knee-jerk reactions that only half got my message across.
Besides, there is no need to argue over differences of opinion cause it won't get us anywhere.

If i shut the hell up from time to time i find that i may just end up learning something i may not have known before.

It's all good, brother!

[Big Train]

OK, I guess I have to compose four responses. As it's late, I'll just do one:

Sesh: I did attack you unfairly in the heat of the moment (responding to this many people at once, wires get crossed, my apologies). I do respect your opinion. My theory, which I admit is just that, an observation nobody has to agree with. You said "bollocks", which meant you disagreed with my observation. My response was that it was an observation looking around at my fellow citizens. As you are not an american citizen, I felt it didn't make sense for you to make a comment about it, as you don't reside here to see what I see everyday.

To Lounge: Generally speaking, I invite all opinions. In this case, he was responding to something he could not POSSIBLY know about, as he is not a US citizen. It's like asking a guy about child birth. I'm glad I'm still your favorite neo con. I still say I just think for myself, like my opinions or not.

To OD: I DO believe people can changes things for the better. That requires hard work and growth, not whining, apathy and wild allegations. That's what I saw at those rallies and what turned me off to them.

These aren't party values I hold, they are basic American values.

Obviously, nothing has checked out at this point, so there is no story. Which means end of story as far as I'm concerned.

To Blue Turk: Read what I said. My "Bizarre" (love those quotes) observation you disagree with fine, I get it. I'm saying to you that while you disagree with it, I think you disagree for some valid logical reasons and some emotional reasons. I think the emotional reasons don't belong. Pure and simple.

[BigBadBrian]

This whole thread is TIN FOIL BEANIE TIME.

Now, I've said before, I'm no Rumsfeld apologist. I wished he'd never taken the job. I wished he would've quit and Colin stayed. But.....

When will people learn that it would have been way more advantageous for the Administration to publish the fact that a shoot-down did occur if it did happen?

Also, I worked over sixteen years in the radar/computer /communications/intel field while I was in the service. There is NO WAY IN HELL that the govt could keep a secret of that magnitude.

There would be simply too many radar antennas painting that picture and too many eyes watching those Planned Position Indicators at both civilian and military radar facilities along the eastern edge of the United States.

Most of those sites are data-linked instantly to other sites as well so other people were seeing what was going on.

This is as about as plausible as the shootdown of Flight 800 from a Navy ship. Try to get all those sailors to keep their mouths shut. Uh huh. :rolleyes:

[fanofdave]

if everything said must be true:

sammy hagar once said he was abducted by a ufo
so i guess we have to conclude ufo's exist.....

al gore is the inventor of the internet; he said so
therefore it is true


rumsfeld says "they shot it down" so it must be true.

three statements made public, i guess you just pick
the one you want to be true......

[Seshmeister]

I want the first to be true, permenantly.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I want the first to be true, permenantly.

Me too. :D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I want the first to be true, permenantly.

Hell, I even wanted the third one to be true. It would've restored some sense of security in me in flying.

But it's not. Wish it were, though.

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

I wish I could spell permanently...:)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
This whole thread is TIN FOIL BEANIE TIME.

Now, I've said before, I'm no Rumsfeld apologist. I wished he'd never taken the job. I wished he would've quit and Colin stayed. But.....

When will people learn that it would have been way more advantageous for the Administration to publish the fact that a shoot-down did occur if it did happen?

Also, I worked over sixteen years in the radar/computer /communications/intel field while I was in the service. There is NO WAY IN HELL that the govt could keep a secret of that magnitude.

There would be simply too many radar antennas painting that picture and too many eyes watching those Planned Position Indicators at both civilian and military radar facilities along the eastern edge of the United States.

Most of those sites are data-linked instantly to other sites as well so other people were seeing what was going on.

This is as about as plausible as the shootdown of Flight 800 from a Navy ship. Try to get all those sailors to keep their mouths shut. Uh huh. :rolleyes:

OMG! I agree with B3 for the second time today! Rumsfeld is an asshole, there is no secret about that, but I do believe the plane crashed not as a result of a shoot down, but as a result of a counter-hijacking.

Some people in here do not realize how hard it would be to keep this shit secret, people (like me for instance) would talk.

And not everything happens for a reason, read about "Chaos Theory" sometime.

TWA800 however, that's another story!

[Cathedral]

"I always have coffee while watching radar" - Dark Helmet

I want Rummy's job. I guarentee all I's will be dotted and all T's crossed...unless it's a capital I, then it won't need dotting.

[DrMaddVibe]

Appears it really was a slip of the tongue. Nothing more. I went back and researched crash scene photos...it wasn't shot down. There would've been debris all over the place and let's not forget the stream of families that had contact with their loved ones on that flight.

Somebody would've blabbed if it was shot. There's no trail of bodies to follow like Ron Brown.