Workers Unions

[Denny]

http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/rpm/bwg/bwg1.html

[Nickdfresh]

Doesn't one need a job to be in a union?

[Viking]

Da, Comrade, it took the Motherland to soaring new heights......but didn't do shit for the workers.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Viking
Da, Comrade, it took the Motherland to soaring new heights......but didn't do shit for the workers. :rolleyes:

Okay Vike, here we go. Your ENRON boys:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Denny
http://www.red-star-research.org.uk/rpm/bwg/bwg1.html

Get a JOB CUNT! Aren't you Rick James anymore bitch? Will SUCK COCK for union card:

[Viking]

See my accompanying thread...... :killer:

[BrownSound1]

I'm not a big fan of unions....sometimes they are needed, but a lot of times they are the root cause of jobs packing up and going for cheaper labor elsewhere.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Brownsound1
I'm not a big fan of unions....sometimes they are needed, but a lot of times they are the root cause of jobs packing up and going for cheaper labor elsewhere.

So is Walmart. And they don't even have a union!

[DEMON CUNT]

Originally posted by Brownsound1
I'm not a big fan of unions....sometimes they are needed, but a lot of times they are the root cause of jobs packing up and going for cheaper labor elsewhere.

But often union leadership starts having hot steamy butt sex with corporate management and the worker ends up getting fucked or ignored. See UFCW for details.

[FORD]

Yeah, fuck those 5 day work weeks, child labor laws, benefits, safe working conditions and all that other shit that we have because of unions. Who needs that, right? :rolleyes:

[Carmine]

Originally posted by FORD
Yeah, fuck those 5 day work weeks, child labor laws, benefits, safe working conditions and all that other shit that we have because of unions. Who needs that, right? :rolleyes:

Right on FORD! I'm a Business Manager for a Union, if we weren't doing things correctly, why would this aministrstion in Washington be focused on destroying us? Why would workers everywhere be afraid that their company and their job be the next lost to corporate greed leaving those workers high and dry? Every AMERICAN worker should belong to a Union, espessially now! The rights guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement are the only rights workers have to protect themselves and their families against the 7 figure a year CEO's who could care less about them. Unless of course, the company seeks a federal termination of that CBA........like the airline workers are faced with right now!~

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
Right on FORD! I'm a Business Manager for a Union, if we weren't doing things correctly, why would this aministrstion in Washington be focused on destroying us? Why would workers everywhere be afraid that their company and their job be the next lost to corporate greed leaving those workers high and dry? Every AMERICAN worker should belong to a Union, espessially now! The rights guaranteed by a collective bargaining agreement are the only rights workers have to protect themselves and their families against the 7 figure a year CEO's who could care less about them. Unless of course, the company seeks a federal termination of that CBA........like the airline workers are faced with right now!~

You got the "Big Ragu" started!

Unions a fundamentally important! No question. But Demon brings up a good point that some unions crawl into the pants of over-payed CEO's to be their lap dogs.

[Pink Spider]

I used to think like some of you but then I heard a good argument. No one is forced at gun point to work at Wal-Mart or another low paying job (at least not in this country). If anyone ends up settling for Wal-Mart as a career, then they probably aren't worth paying much in the first place.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
I used to think like some of you but then I heard a good argument. No one is forced at gun point to work at Wal-Mart or another low paying job (at least not in this country). If anyone ends up settling for Wal-Mart as a career, then they probably aren't worth paying much in the first place.

In the 90's I might have agreed with that statement, but given the BCE damaged economy, and the fact that Wal Mart may be the only option in some small towns, given their fascist business practices of forcing everyone else out of business, the reality for some people just might be that bleak.

Irony is that most places where this reality would exist would be in "red" states.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
You got the "Big Ragu" started!

Unions a fundamentally important! No question. But Demon brings up a good point that some unions crawl into the pants of over-payed CEO's to be their lap dogs.

No doubt about it Nick. But, if that should happen there are several ways to make that Union accountable for its actions. Not saying that having a relationship with the company is always a bad thing either. There are Union friendly CEO's and Managers everywhere, you just have to safeguard your members with strong contract language in the event that things sour. Misrepresentation charges against a Union are few and far between though....usually the fault of the employee representative who also works for the company. Draw your own conclusion there....

[Carmine]

The trouble with a company like Wal-Mart is that they start you off with a decent salary and benefits. Sorry Pink, but there is no such thing, to me, as a worker who doesnt deserve a decent wage and benefit package with which to support their family! That is why all Unions, mine included, hold a relentless pursuit of Wal MArt and companies like them. And that is also why, Wal Mart is so afraid of being organized!

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by FORD
In the 90's I might have agreed with that statement, but given the BCE damaged economy, and the fact that Wal Mart may be the only option in some small towns, given their fascist business practices of forcing everyone else out of business, the reality for some people just might be that bleak.

Irony is that most places where this reality would exist would be in "red" states.

Wal-Mart doesn't sell everything...yet. There are business' that can and do survive against them. By the way, you'd never find much business choices in small towns. Wal-Mart or not. They're called small towns for a reason.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Wal-Mart doesn't sell everything...yet. There are business' that can and do survive against them. By the way, you'd never find much business choices in small towns. Wal-Mart or not. They're called small towns for a reason.

Not many. Ames department stores were CRUSHED across the country by Wal MArt. That is there tact, they move into small towns and take out all the competition. Family run businesses that had survived for generations fold within a short time once Wal Mart comes to "save your town"

[Nickdfresh]

Aside from that, Walmart sucks to shop at. Crowed aisles and way too many low-class people. It's not worth the money you save, if you really save much at all.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
The trouble with a company like Wal-Mart is that they start you off with a decent salary and benefits. Sorry Pink, but there is no such thing, to me, as a worker who doesnt deserve a decent wage and benefit package with which to support their family! That is why all Unions, mine included, hold a relentless pursuit of Wal MArt and companies like them. And that is also why, Wal Mart is so afraid of being organized!

What's stopping the workers from getting a better job or starting their own? Instead of keeping a company in business that sells products that were made in a dictatorship? The reasons that companies like this exist is because people continue to work for them. Even if you try to unionize Wal-Mart. They'll just shut down that certain location like they did when it was tried before.

[Carmine]

You dont save at all. Thats why store like that exist. Not just a Wal Mart, but like stores. You always end up buying more than you went in for, its human nature. You see something and buy it, usaully forgetting what you went for in the first place...lol

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
What's stopping the workers from getting a better job or starting their own? Instead of keeping a company in business that sells products that were made in a dictatorship? The reasons that companies like this exist is because people continue to work for them. Even if you try to unionize Wal-Mart. They'll just shut down that certain location like they did when it was tried before.

Everybody needs a job. There is no fault on a person getting a job there. I have a cousin who has worked for them for 10 years. Its stability. Its a steady check for him, his wife and kids. The problem is, that you get whatever they want you to have in regard to future wage and benefits. Even if a group of employees organized from within(a staff union) not affiliated with a international union at all, they still run the risk of immedaite termination. Thats the problem, why shouldnt a worker be able to walk into the bosses office and ask for a raise? Why are they so afraid of being organized, this All-American company?

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
The problem is, that you get whatever they want you to have in regard to future wage and benefits. Even if a group of employees organized from within(a staff union) not affiliated with a international union at all, they still run the risk of immedaite termination. Thats the problem, why shouldnt a worker be able to walk into the bosses office and ask for a raise? Why are they so afraid of being organized, this All-American company?

Capitalism isn't fair and it isn't required to be. If someone insistently asks for a raise and fails to work properly, shouldn't the company have the rights to fire this person? I would say yes. If a union wants to organize then they should have to take that risk without protection from the government. Anything else is not capitalism and I don't see a workers society being very innovative or free.

I've been on the other side of the argument and have heard all their excuses and found that they're mostly full of shit. Capitalism is the only free system capable of innovation in the long run. You get only what you deserve and in the other case you get what you haven't earned.

[ODShowtime]

I work WITH a union and they fucking suck. They reward mediocrity and teach workers they can get away with all kinds of shit.

That, and the union used their leverage here so management couldn't get any raises. Bullshit.

They do have uses and benefits though in certain industries and companies. But they open up all new problems.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Capitalism is the only free system capable of innovation in the long run. You get only what you deserve and in the other case you get what you haven't earned.

Am I imagining things or am I starting to sound like Ashcroft?

Bush and Republicans are fucking idiots!

That's better. :D

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Am I imagining things or am I starting to sound like Ashcroft?

Bush and Republicans are fucking idiots!

That's better. :D

LMAO! I was just getting ready to respond to your previous post, I like this one better!

[Nickdfresh]

I can't believe a Denny thread turned into something worthwhile.

[ODShowtime]

we're enablers

[FORD]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I can't believe a Denny thread turned into something worthwhile.

He will be so disappointed. He's probably "unionizing" panda spam pics to "strike" against us as we speak.

[Viking]

Originally posted by FORD:

He will be so disappointed. He's probably "unionizing" panda spam pics to "strike" against us as we speak.

OUCH! Panda dockworkers trained to kneecap rival troops?:D

[ODShowtime]

I wish someone would kneecap him

[Nickdfresh]

Being a saftey officer, Douchebag Denny must realize that "kneecapping" is strickly against OSHA regulations.

I wonder what the fatality rate is at his plant?

http://66.94.69.203/images/FireSuit.jpg

[ODShowtime]

at least no one's at risk when I fuck off on here

[BrownSound1]

At one time unions were desperately needed, no argument there, but I think the bulk of their usefullness has vanished.

Here's an example of some union bullshit... I have personally witnessed people bidding on a job who were extremely qualified for the particular position, but because they were not the "most senior" person they didn't get it. The person who did get awarded the job had minimal knowledge at best, and couldn't hold a candle to some of the other bidders. Where is the logic in that? I say the most qualified person should be awarded the job regardless of seniority. I can understand the seniority rule in a case where the bidders had fairly equal skills, but ONLY in that case. I heard a steward say, "well they've been here 20 years, so they deserve that position regardless." Sure a person who hangs at a company for 20 years deserves some commendation for that...but that shouldn't be the main reason he gets awarded a job bid, especially when there are people who can run circles around them.

[ODShowtime]

And the senior ones know they can be bums and still stick around and get rewarded. I see it every day.

But if you immediately closed all unions, workers would be fucked within a week.

Human nature/capitalism and a harmonious relationship between mgt and labor do not go hand and hand.

[WACF]

I work underground in a Potash mine.

Unions sometimes do hinder harder working people but over all they are necessary.
When it comes to getting backed by the work force in a questionable safety situation you have a greater voice.
The laws are there already but with a union junior employees are not scared to voice their concerns.
The whole threat of losing your job is not there unless you are complete fuck-up.

Also...I have seen better operators stay at a lower postion while higher senior employees get the higher paying job...but what are you gonna do?
At previous non-union jobs I have seen employees be a bag licker to get ahead.
I had one female co-worker fuck the supervisor to get the better shift that was supposed to be mine.

Another point is my wage and benifits...our company has always stated they don't make much money but always seem to post record profits...the union does get us a good standard of living...and protect it.

My supervisor told me once that unions are a necessary evil...he came from the union side to become staff...he knows the drill.

We were just bought by Cargil....a largley non-union operator...we will see how things transpire....

[WACF]

I will and try to find a link but I know here in Canada a couple of Wal-Marts have gone into certification votes.

I know they fought like hell to keep them out and I think they are still fighting.
It will be interesting....they have pretty deep pockets to fight it.

I believe one store was in Quebec and one here in Saskatchewan.

The news stories of how Wal-Mart was sending notes to the employees in their paychecks telling them to reconsider was alarming...would be intimidating to alot of employees....

Thing with Wal-Mart is I can not see anyone working there and expecting to be well off....but I like the idea of making sure they keep their hours and maybe pick up some benifits.

It may socialistic but I do think Wal-Mart can afford it.....

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Brownsound1
At one time unions were desperately needed, no argument there, but I think the bulk of their usefullness has vanished.

Here's an example of some union bullshit... I have personally witnessed people bidding on a job who were extremely qualified for the particular position, but because they were not the "most senior" person they didn't get it. The person who did get awarded the job had minimal knowledge at best, and couldn't hold a candle to some of the other bidders. Where is the logic in that? I say the most qualified person should be awarded the job regardless of seniority. I can understand the seniority rule in a case where the bidders had fairly equal skills, but ONLY in that case. I heard a steward say, "well they've been here 20 years, so they deserve that position regardless." Sure a person who hangs at a company for 20 years deserves some commendation for that...but that shouldn't be the main reason he gets awarded a job bid, especially when there are people who can run circles around them.

Most current collective bargaining agreements I negotiate, prevent this type of situation from occuring. When Job bidding is the issue, the CBA language should read: the successful bidder shall be the senior, most qualified applicant. This way the most deserved and qualified person gets the job. This was both factors are considered before the position is awarded

[DrMaddVibe]

Unions?

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/animals/sheep.html

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by WACF

It may socialistic but I do think Wal-Mart can afford it.....

Uh, dude they can afford it. They're the number one Fortune 500 company:


Walmart (http://investor.walmartstores.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=112761&p=irol-newsArticle_Print&ID=496687&highlight=)
Wal-Mart Reports Record Sales and Earnings
BENTONVILLE, Ark., Feb. 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. (NYSE: WMT) reported record earnings and sales for the quarter ended January 31, 2004. Net sales were $74.5 billion, an increase of 12.2 percent over the similar prior year quarter. Income from continuing operations after minority interest and taxes for the quarter was $2.7 billion, an 11.0 percent increase from the $2.5 billion in the similar prior year quarter...Net sales for the twelve months ended January 31, 2004, were a record $256.3 billion, an increase of 11.6 percent over net sales of the similar prior year period. Income from continuing operations after minority interest and taxes for the twelve months increased 13.3 percent to a record $8.9 billion or $2.03 earnings per share, up from $7.8 billion or $1.76 earnings per share in the same prior year period.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Unions?

http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/animals/sheep.html

Another well thoughtout, intellectual post from Dr.AssVibe:

[DrMaddVibe]

Look Nick I know you're going to go across the grain and defend the unions, but they've become what they were designed to protect against!

They harbor the lazy, old and unmotivated of individuals while proposing high wages of which the workers pay back in the form of dues. They are the reason for offshoring. Look at every facet of enterprise that's been raped by a union and where are they now?

Nice pic of yourself too. Better grab a plunger if you want to move up to steward!

[BigBadBrian]

While there is no doubt that unions have served a use in the past and still do serve some purposes currently, there is also no doubt that unions protect the lazy workers illustrated by Dr.V. The coin has been flipped and is clearly on its edge.

My biggest gripe against Wal-mart are the shitty products it sells.

:gulp:

[Carmine]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Look Nick I know you're going to go across the grain and defend the unions, but they've become what they were designed to protect against!

They harbor the lazy, old and unmotivated of individuals while proposing high wages of which the workers pay back in the form of dues. They are the reason for offshoring. Look at every facet of enterprise that's been raped by a union and where are they now?

Nice pic of yourself too. Better grab a plunger if you want to move up to steward!

WHOA NOW! I feel about a 15 page rant coming, but,I'll try to keep it simple. Companies are Offshoring because they wont have to pay their employees an honest days pay and because of the JAGOFF thats in the White House! Unions are the only line of protection AGAINST such an act from happening to any company. Granted, the NLRB has been watered down by Bush and he is still trying to repel labor laws that have been in place for decades, but, without a union to file a charge with the NLRB you are at that companies disposal! As for dues, 1 hours pay a week is nothing for what a worker receives in return! Most would gladly pay MORE, however, it isnt neccessary!

[Denny]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
WHOA NOW! I feel about a 15 page rant coming, but,I'll try to keep it simple. Companies are Offshoring because they wont have to pay their employees an honest days pay and because of the JAGOFF thats in the White House! Unions are the only line of protection AGAINST such an act from happening to any company. Granted, the NLRB has been watered down by Bush and he is still trying to repel labor laws that have been in place for decades, but, without a union to file a charge with the NLRB you are at that companies disposal! As for dues, 1 hours pay a week is nothing for what a worker receives in return! Most would gladly pay MORE, however, it isnt neccessary!

Solidarity Needed for Scottish Construction Worker
Brian Higgins is a Scottish Building Construction worker who needs our help.
Like many of us, Brian Higgins has been fighting for a democratic union. He is a member of UCATT (Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians), an "industrial" union in the U.K. Building trades. He has been active with the Building Workers Group and has been Secretary of the Northampton UCATT.

After several workers had been unfairly fired and their UCATT local had done nothing to defend them, Brian sent a polite letter to a local paper. In this letter he pointed out that another UCATT official, Dominic Hehir, while claiming to defend the workers, had in fact done little or nothing.

Hehir then took an unprecedented step of suing Higgins. This is very uncommon in the UK and UCATT is supposed to have mechanisms for dealing with such internal dissent. The question arises: Where does a union official such as Hehir receive the funds to hire lawyers for his suit? The only answer Higgins and his supporters can see is from UCATT and employers who want to see Higgins and the militant Building Workers Group silenced.

The UK IWW is asking IWWs and workers everywhere to support Brian Higgins. Petitions are available from the Portland IU330 Branch; funds are also needed. Send checks to the Brian Higgins Defence Campaign, POBox 447 SWDO, 4 Falcon Road West, Edinburgh, EH10 4AB UK

Wobs, let's make this an International Defence Campaign, An Injury to One is an Injury to All!

http://www.iww.org/~iw/oct1997/stories/330.htm

[Denny]

And there's MORE!!!!

BUILDING WORKER GROUP WIN IN MILTON KEYNES



On January 6th a bricklayer in Northampton UCATT told branch secretary Brian Higgins that he and 12 others had been sacked that morning on their return from the Xmas break. Eight others had started in their place! At the invitation of the men Brian went to Milton Keynes two days later and established that the men were entitled to notice or pay in lieu of notice. As there were only a couple of weeks left on the job the men involved demanded that all wages owing and a week's wages in lieu be paid that day or they would picket the site the next morning. The bosses thought this was a bluff and didn't settle but contacted UCATT headquarters instead. UCATT "organiser" Dominic Hehir, who is threatening Brian Higgins with a libel action (see BF210) said Higgins had no authority. At 7.15am the next day the picket was on. By 9am the site was at a standstill and by 1pm the contractor had settled in full. Once again, direct action gets the goods.

http://flag.blackened.net/blackflag/211/211bw.htm

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Denny
Solidarity Needed for Scottish Construction Worker

The question arises: Where does a union official such as Hehir receive the funds to hire lawyers for his suit? The only answer Higgins and his supporters can see is from UCATT and employers who want to see Higgins and the militant Building Workers Group silenced.


http://www.iww.org/~iw/oct1997/stories/330.htm

This is disgusting to me, I hope this Hehir used UNION funds to file suit against a brother member!If so, this Higgins fellow will be the next President of a new and HONEST local!

Thanks for the link, I'm curious....

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Denny
. At 7.15am the next day the picket was on. By 9am the site was at a standstill and by 1pm the contractor had settled in full. Once again, direct action gets the goods.

http://flag.blackened.net/blackflag/211/211bw.htm

Good for them! Direct action does get the goods! Everytime!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
WHOA NOW! I feel about a 15 page rant coming, but,I'll try to keep it simple. Companies are Offshoring because they wont have to pay their employees an honest days pay and because of the JAGOFF thats in the White House! Unions are the only line of protection AGAINST such an act from happening to any company. Granted, the NLRB has been watered down by Bush and he is still trying to repel labor laws that have been in place for decades, but, without a union to file a charge with the NLRB you are at that companies disposal! As for dues, 1 hours pay a week is nothing for what a worker receives in return! Most would gladly pay MORE, however, it isnt neccessary!

Uhh....no. This is a gross oversimplification of what is going on.

Offshoring is going on because it is cheaper to pay foreign workers than American workers. It's really quite that simple. Labor costs are a cost of doing business for any firm. There is no getting around that.

Unions have contributed to that cost over the last hundred years by bargaining for better wages, pension plans, medical and dental plans, maternity and paternity leave, etc. Do American workers need these things? Yes. Did these things contribute to higher labor costs for the individual firm? Yes. Did they cause some firms to go looking for cheaper labor abroad? Yes.

That doesn't make it right, but that is what is happening.

Hanging the offshoring scam on one President is wrong, particularly when the process is been in the works for decades.

[Denny]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
This is disgusting to me, I hope this Hehir used UNION funds to file suit against a brother member!If so, this Higgins fellow will be the next President of a new and HONEST local!

Thanks for the link, I'm curious....

Brian Higgins is a HERO of mine. He works relentlessly for WORKERS rights. Hehir was told to DROP the lawsuit against Brian Higgins because there was no way in hell he could win.

Brian hasn't worked construction now in about 20 years because of his DIRECT action against ASSHOLE COnstruction firms, he has been banned from EVERY construction site over in England and Scotland.

He dedicates all of his time to fighting for workers rights. Improvements in Construction site safety, fair wages.

Another thing he is fighting is Construction firms from Hiring workers from EASTERN EUROPE which is putting Highly Skilled Tradesmen out of work and is of course lowering the wages HIGHLY SKILLED men should BE earning.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Denny
Brian Higgins is a HERO of mine. he has been banned from EVERY construction site over in England and Scotland.


sounds like one of your role models.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Look Nick I know you're going to go across the grain and defend the unions, but they've become what they were designed to protect against!

They harbor the lazy, old and unmotivated of individuals while proposing high wages of which the workers pay back in the form of dues. They are the reason for offshoring. Look at every facet of enterprise that's been raped by a union and where are they now?

Nice pic of yourself too. Better grab a plunger if you want to move up to steward!

See Madd, that's YOUR PROBLEM! You make assumptions about me. I am very skeptical of unions. Problem is, unlike you, I am even MORE SKEPTICAL of the coporate elite that cost this country far more and do the most damage.

Why should an already way over-paid (in comparision w/ Japan & Europe) corporate CEO get fired for being corrupt, lazy or incompetent and then get a HUGE severance package for not working for one, two, even FIVE FUCKING YEARS!? More than the cost of five workers salaries? Explain that one and we'll talk about Unions.

[Denny]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
sounds like one of your role models.

YEAP!!!!!

Have a Nice Day™

[DrMaddVibe]

Don't make it seem like it wasn't happening under Clinton too. Everything can't be Bush's fault. There's peons here that scream he's stupid and then there's people in this thread that claim he's causing the New World Order!

Make up your mind!

Sam Walton would have his kids heads on a pike if he knew they were operating his business like they're doing now. This isn't the way he conducted business. He would rescue companies going under because of unions and keep the labor and the entire business running but exclusively for Walmart! Now the kids are cashing in on offshoring and letting the 3rd world manufacture everything and pay the shipping!

As far as job skills go...where's the big training programs? They're virtually non-existent! Standing around and waiting for "skilled" labor? Gimmie a break. If you want to hijack a business through extortion then go ahead and keep paying your "dues"! I've been in a union and it's definetly NOT for me...even if I was unemployed I wouldn't join again! I'm enjoying a much higher wage and benefits without the representation!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Uhh....no. This is a gross oversimplification of what is going on.

Offshoring is going on because it is cheaper to pay foreign workers than American workers. It's really quite that simple. Labor costs are a cost of doing business for any firm. There is no getting around that.

Unions have contributed to that cost over the last hundred years by bargaining for better wages, pension plans, medical and dental plans, maternity and paternity leave, etc. Do American workers need these things? Yes. Did these things contribute to higher labor costs for the individual firm? Yes. Did they cause some firms to go looking for cheaper labor abroad? Yes.

That doesn't make it right, but that is what is happening.

Hanging the offshoring scam on one President is wrong, particularly when the process is been in the works for decades.

The preceding post was brought to you by our friends at ENRON! Fighting for 'fair and balanced' corporate CEO salaries!

[Carmine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Uhh....no. This is a gross oversimplification of what is going on.

Offshoring is going on because it is cheaper to pay foreign workers than American workers. It's really quite that simple. Labor costs are a cost of doing business for any firm. There is no getting around that.

Unions have contributed to that cost over the last hundred years by bargaining for better wages, pension plans, medical and dental plans, maternity and paternity leave, etc. Do American workers need these things? Yes. Did these things contribute to higher labor costs for the individual firm? Yes. Did they cause some firms to go looking for cheaper labor abroad? Yes.

That doesn't make it right, but that is what is happening.

Hanging the offshoring scam on one President is wrong, particularly when the process is been in the works for decades.

Thats fine, I respect your opinion. But, Bush is, without a doubt, the most Anti-Union, Anti-worker President ever. On November 26, the republican dominated NLRB, effectivley eliminated the right of Temp agency workers to form a union by ruling that workers cannot be included in a unit without the "Clients" consent. On December 6, Bush appointed Gerald Reynolds, an outspoken opponent of affirmative action to chair the US commission on Civil Rights. In the past 4 years the Bush administration has gutted the collective bargaining rights of tens of thousands of Federal workers, overturned or weakened work place safety rules, eliminated Fair Labor standards Act overtime pay for 8 million workers, attacked prevailing wage laws by banning PLA's, opposed raising the federal minimum wage and supported efforts to silence workers political voice. Off shoring is just but one gift from Bush!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Don't make it seem like it wasn't happening under Clinton too. Everything can't be Bush's fault. There's peons here that scream he's stupid and then there's people in this thread that claim he's causing the New World Order!...



I agree there is plenty of blame to go around. But I'm speaking from the perspective of people's attitudes which are often very misguided, not anyone president's policies.

We are Enablers of Walmart and Enron bullshit.

('s=possessive NickdFresh!)

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
See Madd, that's YOUR PROBLEM! You make assumptions about me. I am very skeptical of unions. Problem is, unlike you, I am even MORE SKEPTICAL of the coporate elite that cost this country far more and do the most damage.

Why should an already way over-paid (in comparision w/ Japan & Europe) corporate CEO get fired for being corrupt, lazy or incompetent and then get a HUGE severance package for not working for one, two, even FIVE FUCKING YEARS!? More than the cost of five workers salaries? Explain that one and we'll talk about Unions.

Then why would you put that pic up?

If you can garner the pig payday...good for you. If you created something from nothing good for you deserve it. Do you bitch about athelete's pay too? I don't harbor any grudges when it comes to pay or social standing. I don't let money run my world and I don't listen to people that harbor the "fuck the rich"attitude. They employ people, they keep business running. Are there bad or evil ones in the pool...yes there are. Do I wish Kenneth Lay and Gary Winnick were in prison instead of Martha Stewert...yes.

Once again, you have to keep the "raincloud" over top of your head and piss and moan about how the world is Bush's fault. Anyone that's made anything out of their life can tell you that you spend way too much time dwelling on what's wrong with everything than what you could be doing constructively with your time!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Then why would you put that pic up?

If you can garner the pig payday...good for you. If you created something from nothing good for you deserve it...

Then WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM WITH UNIONS?!?:confused:

(Bullshit doublestandard alert!)

BTW, did a UNION FUCK THE STOCKMARKET AFTER THEIR ACCOUNTING SCANDELS were revealed? NO!

Adelphia sure did.

Fucking Enron and their bullshit, gleefully corrupt "PAYDAYS," sure did!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Then why would you put that pic up?

If you can garner the pig payday...good for you. If you created something from nothing good for you deserve it. Do you bitch about athelete's pay too?...

Yes, in fact I think ALL leagues, especially the NHL, should have a salary cap in place. Along with a luxery tax of course.;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Denny
YEAP!!!!!

Have a Nice Day™

BTW...FUCK YOU Denny.:upyours:

[ODShowtime]

My most communist hippy thought:

We need a goddamn salary cap on CEOs. No matter what happens in industry, no matter what kind of labor cost increases, no matter what happens to raw material supply, no matter what kind of gov't intervention reduces prices, the god damned executives make the same cut.

Yeah yeah, it's competition and employment economics. They need CAPPED. Cut right the fuck off around a couple million per year. I don't give a fuck how long it took you to get your MBA or who's dick you had to suck, these people get paid WAY TOO MUCH.

And the conflicts of interest that the their performance bonuses cause is what creates the accounting scandals and the backlash into the markets.

too bad they're in charge of everything. Oh well.

[DrMaddVibe]

Nick do you ever take ownership of your OWN behavior?

Is everyone else the reason for your failures? Do you dream up new and exciting tales from the darkside to deflect the possibility that YOU are your own worst enemy?

I'm really glad I took the opportunities to become educated and am motivated to make the best of everyday I'm above ground level. Obviously whatever it is you see in being a negative drain to the endless possibilities that are in front of you is working for you...carry on. I really won't get in your way, I'm too busy making more money!

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian


My biggest gripe against Wal-mart are the shitty products it sells.

:gulp:

And why are they shitty products? You think the fact that they're made in third world sweatshops might have something to do with it? Comes full circle back to greedy ass corporations wanting to get by with cheap labor.

[WACF]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
My most communist hippy thought:

We need a goddamn salary cap on CEOs. No matter what happens in industry, no matter what kind of labor cost increases, no matter what happens to raw material supply, no matter what kind of gov't intervention reduces prices, the god damned executives make the same cut.

Yeah yeah, it's competition and employment economics. They need CAPPED. Cut right the fuck off around a couple million per year. I don't give a fuck how long it took you to get your MBA or who's dick you had to suck, these people get paid WAY TOO MUCH.

And the conflicts of interest that the their performance bonuses cause is what creates the accounting scandals and the backlash into the markets.

too bad they're in charge of everything. Oh well.

That is a very good point!

It is amazing what some CEOs get....then they turn around and tell you do to do more with less because "we need to compete"....it's all a game.
They take care of themselves first...

[ODShowtime]

I thought I was gonna get slayed for that one...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Nick do you ever take ownership of your OWN behavior?

Is everyone else the reason for your failures? Do you dream up new and exciting tales from the darkside to deflect the possibility that YOU are your own worst enemy?

I'm really glad I took the opportunities to become educated and am motivated to make the best of everyday I'm above ground level. Obviously whatever it is you see in being a negative drain to the endless possibilities that are in front of you is working for you...carry on. I really won't get in your way, I'm too busy making more money!

Oh yeah, so it's about me now Mr.SaddVibe.

Mr.SaddVibe: No facts or logic=personal attack!

I can really tell you are so educated Mr.SaddVibe. It's all the unions fault!

Working people getting ahead=Creeping socialism.

Corporate executives that lie, cheat, steal, and disrupt the economy=The American Way according to AssVibe.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
My most communist hippy thought:

We need a goddamn salary cap on CEOs. No matter what happens in industry, no matter what kind of labor cost increases, no matter what happens to raw material supply, no matter what kind of gov't intervention reduces prices, the god damned executives make the same cut.



Uh...no.

A good portion of the salary a CEO gets is usually directly tired to how well a company is doing, either through stock-options or bonuses. Their direct salary is usually fairly small in comparison.

When you read of CEO's making out quite well, usually the company, and hence all levels of the workforce, are doing quite nice as well.

BTW, if we allow the government to regulate CEO salaries, can the regulation of all salaries and wages be far behind?

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Oh yeah, so it's about me now Mr.SaddVibe.

Mr.SaddVibe: No facts or logic=personal attack!

I can really tell you are so educated Mr.SaddVibe. It's all the unions fault!

Working people getting ahead=Creeping socialism.

Corporate executives that lie, cheat, steal, and disrupt the economy=The American Way according to AssVibe.

.Mr.SaddVibe: No facts or logic=personal attack! - What was the pic of the guy and the toilet? How's bout I start calling you Lil Dick instead seeing how you can't type my moniker correctly and the "gloves are off". You take this internet thing way too fucking serious. Nobody is going to make you "god of the world" because you type here.

I can really tell you are so educated Mr.SaddVibe. It's all the unions fault! - I can tell with the attitude you display that you aren't! You live in a naive world where everyone is out to get you and it's always a gloomy day. Your life experiences show how sheltered and childish you are. I'm glad the "union" thing is "working" for you.

Working people getting ahead=Creeping socialism. - No Lil Dick dumbfuck it's called free enterprise. You work harder than others and see your dream through then you get rewarded. You can sit in your dark shelter and wait for Death to come and wipe us off of the globe...I'll be doing something!

Corporate executives that lie, cheat, steal, and disrupt the economy=The American Way according to AssVibe. - I've never said that. Give me your address and I'll buy Hooked On Phonics and a fucking Dictionary for you so you can not only read but perhaps you'll come to understand the words.

EVERYTHING is all about YOU lil' Dick. You're the one with the big ideas. You're the one that can tell right from wrong. You're the only one that can stand up with an opinion. You're the only one that has to go out on a bender on everyone here, so yeah...it is all about you lil' Dick. It's all about YOU showing us all reading your rants here that you're a lil' Dick! You're right.

[ODShowtime]

One thing YOU won't be informing ME about is executive compensation.


Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Uh...no.

A good portion of the salary a CEO gets is usually directly tired to how well a company is doing, either through stock-options or bonuses. Their direct salary is usually fairly small in comparison.


and the conflicts of interest that the their performance bonuses cause is what creates the accounting scandals and the backlash into the markets.

BTW, if we allow the government to regulate CEO salaries, can the regulation of all salaries and wages be far behind?

Now that would be a good point if not for the example set by the NFL. Stopping ridiculous excess is different than communism. Common sense would have to be involved. That's another reason why it's a pipe dream.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
.Mr.SaddVibe: No facts or logic=personal attack! - What was

EVERYTHING is all about YOU lil' Dick. You're the one with the big ideas. You're the one that can tell right from wrong. You're the only one that can stand up with an opinion. You're the only one that has to go out on a bender on everyone here, so yeah...it is all about you lil' Dick. It's all about YOU showing us all reading your rants here that you're a lil' Dick! You're right.

Yeah right AssVibe, we'll just reference your posts in the Tsunami thread for that one.

Tell me all about right form wrong.

[DrMaddVibe]

Just did...lil' Dicko!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Uh...no.

A good portion of the salary a CEO gets is usually directly tired to how well a company is doing, either through stock-options or bonuses. Their direct salary is usually fairly small in comparison.

When you read of CEO's making out quite well, usually the company, and hence all levels of the workforce, are doing quite nice as well.

BTW, if we allow the government to regulate CEO salaries, can the regulation of all salaries and wages be far behind?

Like ENRON? For the most part yes. But since you guys are citing examples of bad union policies, I think I am entitled to respond with extreme example of bullshit coporate hedonism, and the general attitudes of precuninary emulation that enable this bullshit.

I also hear examples of CEO's that jump from company-to-company and basically cause the companies to self-destruct because they pursue policies that emphasize excessive short-term growth to provide the illusion or exaggerration of success and burn the company out in the process, destroying it. But it doesn't matter to them because they are long gone after cashing in the inflated stock options!

That's the latest way to make a buck I hear, and totally legal!
http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/cgc/images/2004/feb/gekko.gif

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh

I also hear examples of CEO's that jump from company-to-company and basically cause the companies to self-destruct because they pursue policies that emphasize excessive short-term growth to provide the illusion or exaggerration of success and burn the company out in the process, destroying it. But it doesn't matter to them because they are long gone after cashing in the inflated stock options!


Exactly Nick. This is a good way to explain a lot of the outsourcing of jobs too. Who the fuck cares how many towns you destroy when you can get a cool boat!

[DrMaddVibe]

There's nothing new under the Sun.

Don't make it out like Greed was just invented.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
There's nothing new under the Sun.

Don't make it out like Greed was just invented.

Very true. Just keep in mind it goes around to all classes, and YES involves union bullshit too.
http://www.2000greetings.com/lazywork.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Like ENRON? For the most part yes. But since you guys are citing examples of bad union policies, I think I am entitled to respond with extreme example of bullshit coporate hedonism, and the general attitudes of precuninary emulation that enable this bullshit.

I also hear examples of CEO's that jump from company-to-company and basically cause the companies to self-destruct because they pursue policies that emphasize excessive short-term growth to provide the illusion or exaggerration of success and burn the company out in the process, destroying it. But it doesn't matter to them because they are long gone after cashing in the inflated stock options!



Sorry Nick, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Excessive short-term growth? :D

"Illusion or exaggerration of success?"

Stick to foreign affairs, Nick. :p

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Sorry Nick, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Excessive short-term growth? :D

"Illusion or exaggerration of success?"

You shouldn't advertise your ignorance.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Sorry Nick, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about.

Excessive short-term growth? :D

"Illusion or exaggerration of success?"

Stick to foreign affairs, Nick.

No, but that's exactly what happened at my sister's previous company she was the IT manager for. The president they brought in ruined the company and walked out right as people began to notice. They went to human resources and complained and found this guy had a whole history of running companies into the ground, but jumping ship right before it sank.

Let me put it in B3 terms then:

Y'all take da' small block chevy and rev dat' horsepower up der by puttin' like the supercharger on an stuff. Man that bitch 'ill move den! But the problem is dat' the engine burn out 'cause it was never made to handle all da' horses! So the engin dun' der' blowed up b'fore it gets a hundr'd tousand' miles on it!;)

[ODShowtime]

Well, with that it looks like we're done to tonight folks. BBB, I'd LOVE to pick this topic up again with you tomorrow.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


Let me put it in B3 terms then:

Y'all take da' small block chevy and rev dat' horsepower up der by puttin' like the supercharger on an stuff. Man that bitch 'ill move den! But the problem is dat' the engine burn out 'cause it was never made to handle all da' horses! So the engin dun' der' blowed up b'fore it gets a hundr'd tousand' miles on it!;)

Quit being such an asshole.

I don't give a flying fuck what happened at your sisters IT company. There's every exception to the rule.

Go to "Hillbilly's R Us" if you want to talk to me like this. I'll talk and debate with ODShowtime and LoungeMachine and FORD instead of you and Demon Cunt since they seem to want to debate rather than trade insults. Yeah, trading a few barbs is the name of the game, but lately its got out of hand. I'm quickly getting bored with it and I simply don't have time for that shit.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Well, with that it looks like we're done to tonight folks. BBB, I'd LOVE to pick this topic up again with you tomorrow.

Fine. :)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Quit being such an asshole.

I don't give a flying fuck what happened at your sisters IT company. There's every exception to the rule.

Go to "Hillbilly's R Us" if you want to talk to me like this. I'll talk and debate with ODShowtime and LoungeMachine and FORD instead of you and Demon Cunt since they seem to want to debate rather than trade insults. Yeah, trading a few barbs is the name of the game, but lately its got out of hand. I'm quickly getting bored with it and I simply don't have time for that shit.

Jesus BBB, try not to get your panties in a wad, as DaveIsKing told me, it was just a joke. You're buckling under the strain of being that last real conservative poster with any in-depth knowledge.