Humvees Aren't the Problem

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  • BigBadBrian
    TOASTMASTER GENERAL
    • Jan 2004
    • 10625

    Humvees Aren't the Problem

    Humvees Aren't the Problem

    by Aaron Glantz
    There has been a lot of talk about Humvees lately, ever since an American soldier asked Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld why soldiers were going to war in unarmored vehicles.

    "We're digging pieces of rusted scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass that's already been shot up, dropped, busted, picking the best out of this scrap to put on our vehicles to take into combat," Specialist Thomas Wilson said at a town hall meeting in Kuwait.

    Rumsfeld's response, that "you have to go to war with what you have" sparked a furor in policy circles in Washington, as did his minimization of the importance of armor: "If you think about it, you can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up," he told the troops. "And you can have an up-armored Humvee and it can be blown up."

    Rumsfeld has been widely denounced for this comment, with everyone from Senator Trent Lott to Weekly Standard editor William Kristol calling on him to go.

    When Congress comes back into session this month, policymakers will likely call him to testify as to why – according to a Scripps Howard survey – 275 American soldiers have died while in Humvees.

    Donald Rumsfeld should be straight with the American people. The United States soldiers who patrol Baghdad's streets are at great risk, not only because their Humvees lack armor, but also because they are the most visible – and as such, easiest to target – portion of an increasingly unpopular military occupation.

    "Every night, a group of us get together and wait for the Americans to drive by in their Humvees," an auto repairman in Baghdad's Sunni-majority Adamiya neighborhood told me in May. "Then, when the Humvees come, we hit them."

    The repairman told me he joined the resistance when it became clear the U.S. military wouldn't be leaving Iraq soon after the fall of Saddam Hussein.

    "We have to fight for our country and our religion," he told me, "so when an American Humvee goes by, we attack it. Sometimes there are American snipers on top of the police station, so we hit the police station. Sometimes there are no Americans around, so we just hit the police. When anyone puts himself on the Americans' side, he's a traitor."

    But why are the Americans on patrol to begin with? Officially, we are told they are patrolling the streets, hunting down insurgents. My experience in Iraq leads me to believe that the Humvees themselves create the insurgents.

    "We have a problem," former Iraqi general Farouk Mu'aden told me in May, "which is that the American military goes door to door and captures people for cooperating with the resistance. This causes more people to join the resistance and makes it more difficult for us to make a peace here."

    At that time, General Farouk was part of a team of notables from Diala – in the heart of the Sunni triangle – who tried to negotiate a ceasefire with the Americans. His group told the local American commander that if he stopped his patrols and gave jobs to the local people, his group would stop the resistance in Diala. But the offer was refused.

    What, exactly, is the point of these Humvee patrols? Why are American soldiers being sent out night after night to be attacked by Iraqi nationalists? If America suspended these Humvee patrols and pulled out of Iraq, these fighters would go back to their regular jobs. As it is, no amount of armor will keep American soldiers from dying in Iraq.
    “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush
  • DrMaddVibe
    ROTH ARMY ELITE
    • Jan 2004
    • 6682

    #2
    I've already mentioned in another thread just how terrible I believed the humvee to be in combat situations.

    Preaching to the choir.
    http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x...auders1zl5.gif
    http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c4...willywonka.gif

    Comment

    • DEMON CUNT
      Crazy Ass Mofo
      • Nov 2004
      • 3242

      #3
      !
      Banned 01/09/09 | Avatar | Aiken | Spammy | Extreme | Pump | Regular | The View | Toot

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      • BigBadBrian
        TOASTMASTER GENERAL
        • Jan 2004
        • 10625

        #4
        Originally posted by DEMON CUNT
        !
        Regurgitated, huh? That's funny.

        I got the article from ANTIWAR.COM

        “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

        Comment

        • DEMON CUNT
          Crazy Ass Mofo
          • Nov 2004
          • 3242

          #5
          Originally posted by BigBadBrian
          Regurgitated, huh? That's funny.

          I got the article from ANTIWAR.COM
          Good for you. I am glad that you are expanding your horizons.

          One of these days you'll be able to form your very own opinion based on all these other people's opinions that you spam-copy-paste into the forum!
          Banned 01/09/09 | Avatar | Aiken | Spammy | Extreme | Pump | Regular | The View | Toot

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          • blueturk
            Veteran
            • Jul 2004
            • 1883

            #6
            NOW they're bringing in armored M113/A3's and M577's.It took almost two tears to make this decision? WTF? http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/10559985.htm
            Last edited by blueturk; 01-05-2005, 03:34 AM.

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            • Nickdfresh
              SUPER MODERATOR

              • Oct 2004
              • 49205

              #7
              Originally posted by blueturk
              NOW they're bringing in armored M113/A3's and M577's.It took almost two tears to make this decision? WTF? http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/news/10559985.htm
              That is ridiculous! The M113 is on par with the utilitarian Jeep as a trusted, cheap, and versatile piece of military (armored) transportation. What the fuck took so long?!...Oh I know, they weren't expensive or sexy enough for Rummy!

              M113 Info

              M113's were used in Vietnam:
              Last edited by Nickdfresh; 01-05-2005, 07:47 AM.

              Comment

              • ODShowtime
                ROCKSTAR

                • Jun 2004
                • 5812

                #8
                The people that make these probably weren't connected properly to gw&friends. That would explain why they weren't initially deployed.
                gnaw on it

                Comment

                • BigBadBrian
                  TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 10625

                  #9
                  Originally posted by ODShowtime
                  The people that make these probably weren't connected properly to gw&friends. That would explain why they weren't initially deployed.
                  The M113 and its variants were mostly phased out in favor of the Bradly Fighting Vehicle when it came into service. The M113 and M577's being pulled into service are being pulled and rehabbed from National Guard warehouses and armories across the nation.

                  “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                  Comment

                  • ODShowtime
                    ROCKSTAR

                    • Jun 2004
                    • 5812

                    #10
                    Originally posted by BigBadBrian
                    The M113 and its variants were mostly phased out in favor of the Bradly Fighting Vehicle when it came into service. The M113 and M577's being pulled into service are being pulled and rehabbed from National Guard warehouses and armories across the nation.

                    That's a good non-cynical answer. So they just need MORE hardware and are using older stuff too? That's not necessarily a bad thing.

                    How do the Bradleys fare against IEDs? Anyone know? Obviously hummers have their problems. I bet is sucks riding in those Bradleys though. Do they have air conditioning and filtration and shit like their Russian counterparts?
                    gnaw on it

                    Comment

                    • BigBadBrian
                      TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                      • Jan 2004
                      • 10625

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ODShowtime
                      That's a good non-cynical answer. So they just need MORE hardware and are using older stuff too? That's not necessarily a bad thing.

                      How do the Bradleys fare against IEDs? Anyone know? Obviously hummers have their problems. I bet is sucks riding in those Bradleys though. Do they have air conditioning and filtration and shit like their Russian counterparts?
                      Believe it or not, I don't think there are a lot of Bradley's in the Iraqi Theater, at least in the Baghdad area of operations doing patrol duty.
                      They are not designed for that. They are designed to fight.

                      There's still hell of a lot of armor in the US mainland and Germany and Korea (Abrams tanks, Bradley's, Heavy Artillery) in case the shit hits the fan elsewhere. That's why they are using Humvees and these things for patrols.
                      “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                      Comment

                      • Nickdfresh
                        SUPER MODERATOR

                        • Oct 2004
                        • 49205

                        #12
                        Originally posted by BigBadBrian
                        The M113 and its variants were mostly phased out in favor of the Bradly Fighting Vehicle when it came into service. The M113 and M577's being pulled into service are being pulled and rehabbed from National Guard warehouses and armories across the nation.

                        Correct. But it was phased out because it was too slow. It's engine is far more powerful now, and the Army has been buying the Stryker wheeled APC's, which are under-armored (notice the screen on the sides).

                        Point is, they should have done this sooner.

                        Theirs actually a black-comedy called "The Pentagon Wars" w/ Kelsey Grammar. It's a pretty good movie about the controversy of the first (lousy) version of the Bradley IFV.


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                        • LoungeMachine
                          DIAMOND STATUS
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 32576

                          #13
                          Non - armored Humvees don't kill soldiers

                          Donald Rumsfeld kills soldiers.
                          Originally posted by Kristy
                          Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
                          Originally posted by cadaverdog
                          I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

                          Comment

                          • DEMON CUNT
                            Crazy Ass Mofo
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 3242

                            #14
                            I can just see Rummy in his garage trying to drive a nail with a monkeywrench.
                            Banned 01/09/09 | Avatar | Aiken | Spammy | Extreme | Pump | Regular | The View | Toot

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                            • ODShowtime
                              ROCKSTAR

                              • Jun 2004
                              • 5812

                              #15
                              Originally posted by BigBadBrian
                              Believe it or not, I don't think there are a lot of Bradley's in the Iraqi Theater, at least in the Baghdad area of operations doing patrol duty.
                              They are not designed for that. They are designed to fight.
                              It's interesting that Rumsfeld or whoever he delegated decision making to didn't foresee the need for armored patrol vehicles. Saddam made it quite clear he would fight an insurgency. He sent out video tapes of the Saddam Fedayeen.

                              Pretty shitty planning if you ask me. When it's gonna be cold I bring a coat.
                              gnaw on it

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