Is God pro-war ??

[ELVIS]

WorldNetDaily.com


"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
(Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)
Christians have struggled with the issue of war for centuries. Before Jesus arrived on the scene, all good people wrestled with war and the existence of evil. Thankfully, the Bible is not silent on the subject.

Before we examine war, though, let's look at the God of Peace.

One of God's primary attributes is peace. Isaiah said the Messiah would bear these names: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). God longs for all people to live in peace. That is how He created the universe – in total peace and harmony.

Christians are to be people of peace.

One of the most notable biblical commands to live in peace is in Romans 12:18: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

With the Bible clear on our responsibility to live peaceably, it seems that there would be no reason to ever go to war. However, if one depends on the Bible as a guidepost for living, it is readily apparent that war is sometimes a necessary option. In fact, just as there are numerous references to peace in the Bible, there are frequent references to God-ordained war.

Many present-day pacifists hold Jesus as their example for unvarying peace. But they ignore the full revelation concerning Jesus pictured in the book of Revelation 19, where He is depicted bearing a "sharp sword" and smiting nations, ruling them with "a rod of iron."

Moreover, the Song of Victory in Exodus 15 hails God as a God of war: "… The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name." And, as the verses that open this column indicate, there is indeed a time for war.

God actually strengthened individuals for war, including Moses, Joshua and many of the Old Testament judges who demonstrated great faith in battle. And God destroyed many armies challenging the Israelites. I Chronicles 14:15 describes God striking down the Philistines.

God even gives counsel to be wise in war. Proverbs 20:18: "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."

Today, America continues to face the horrible realities of our fallen world. Suicide bombings and terrorist actions are beamed live into our homes daily. This serves as a constant reminder of the frailty of our flesh.

It is apparent that our God-authored freedoms must be defended.

Throughout the book of Judges, God calls the Israelites to go to war against the Midianites and Philistines. Why? Because these nations were trying to conquer Israel, and God's people were called to defend themselves.

President Bush declared war in Iraq to defend innocent people. This is a worthy pursuit. In fact, Proverbs 21:15 tells us: "It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives. If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers.

Finally, some reading this column will surely ask, "Doesn't the sixth commandment say, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

Actually, no; it says: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

There is a difference between killing and murdering. In fact, many times God commanded capital punishment for those who break the law.

We continue to live in violent times. The Bible tells us war will be a reality until Christ returns. And when the time is right, Jesus will indeed come again, ending all wars.

Until that time, however, Christians must live as Galatians 6:2 instructs: "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."



:elvis:

[Angel]

You posting fairy tales again there, Elvis?

[ELVIS]

God and the Bible are fairy tales ??

[lms2]

I think stories of peace are fairy tales...

they are really just the calm before the storm. :D

[Nickdfresh]

God didn't write the Bible, men did!

[LoungeMachine]

Anyone who takes the Bible LITERALLY is a fucking dolt.

ELVIS, don't quote Scripture unless you're prepared to stand behind EVERY WORD.

It's just too convenient for you Christians to take the parts that serve your purposes out of context.

[Mezro]

Originally posted by ELVIS
God and the Bible are fairy tales ??

Yes.

Mezro...if you want to study fictional literature with a message why not Dr. Seuss's Oh, The Places You Will Go or Green Eggs & Ham...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Anyone who takes the Bible LITERALLY is a fucking dolt.

ELVIS, don't quote Scripture unless you're prepared to stand behind EVERY WORD.

It's just too convenient for you Christians to take the parts that serve your purposes out of context.

The opposite is also true. :gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
The opposite is also true. :gulp:

How so B3?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
How so B3?

I'm not here to get into any drawn out theological discussions, but atheists such as yourself have a tendency to take scripture for their own purposes and use them for their own agendas in the same manner that they accuse Christians of doing.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I'm not here to get into any drawn out theological discussions, but atheists such as yourself have a tendency to take scripture for their own purposes and use them for their own agendas in the same manner that they accuse Christians of doing.

agnostic, not atheist, bud.

I believe in a supreme Being, just not the Fairy Tales within the Bible.:D

Why do religious nuts always need to paint us "other" believers as ATHEISTS??

I dont want some drawn out battle here either. No side will convert the other. I just HATE Bible Thumpers who pick and choose what parts to believe:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

What Is an agnostic?
An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.

Are agnostics atheists?
No. An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.

[Jesus Christ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ELVIS



"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace."
(Ecclesiastes 3:1-8)

Verily a good writing then, and just as so later when the Byrds did write music unto it. But do not misundertand these words, My children. Just because it referreth to a "time of war" does not mean that war hath My endorsement or My Dad's.

Christians have struggled with the issue of war for centuries. Before Jesus arrived on the scene, all good people wrestled with war and the existence of evil. Thankfully, the Bible is not silent on the subject.

Before we examine war, though, let's look at the God of Peace.

One of God's primary attributes is peace. Isaiah said the Messiah would bear these names: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). God longs for all people to live in peace. That is how He created the universe – in total peace and harmony.

Christians are to be people of peace.

Verily. So what is thy problem then? :confused:

One of the most notable biblical commands to live in peace is in Romans 12:18: "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."

With the Bible clear on our responsibility to live peaceably, it seems that there would be no reason to ever go to war. However, if one depends on the Bible as a guidepost for living, it is readily apparent that war is sometimes a necessary option. In fact, just as there are numerous references to peace in the Bible, there are frequent references to God-ordained war.

And none of them include plundering the natural resources of a nation, nor building a house of lies with which to justify it.

Many present-day pacifists hold Jesus as their example for unvarying peace. But they ignore the full revelation concerning Jesus pictured in the book of Revelation 19, where He is depicted bearing a "sharp sword" and smiting nations, ruling them with "a rod of iron."

These are the words of men, not Mine. For I will come back and destroy them which destroy the world, but I will not do so, as mortal men do, in the name of greed and misplaced nationalism, but to put an end to evil and establish My Kingdom.

Moreover, the Song of Victory in Exodus 15 hails God as a God of war: "… The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name." And, as the verses that open this column indicate, there is indeed a time for war.

God actually strengthened individuals for war, including Moses, Joshua and many of the Old Testament judges who demonstrated great faith in battle. And God destroyed many armies challenging the Israelites. I Chronicles 14:15 describes God striking down the Philistines.

God even gives counsel to be wise in war. Proverbs 20:18: "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."

Verily, the Son of Bush should hath read such Scriptures. For ye hath all seen what happenned when war is made with bad advice. My children, if ye cannot understand the difference between joining a war to stop one such as Hitler, and starting a war against a nation that does not threaten thee, then even the Son of Man may not convince you of the Truth. Until the day that ye see these warmongers cast into the Lake of Fire. Pray that ye not find yourselves among them.

Today, America continues to face the horrible realities of our fallen world. Suicide bombings and terrorist actions are beamed live into our homes daily. This serves as a constant reminder of the frailty of our flesh.

It is apparent that our God-authored freedoms must be defended.

Throughout the book of Judges, God calls the Israelites to go to war against the Midianites and Philistines. Why? Because these nations were trying to conquer Israel, and God's people were called to defend themselves.

President Bush declared war in Iraq to defend innocent people. This is a worthy pursuit. In fact, Proverbs 21:15 tells us: "It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity."

The Son of Bush careth not for innocent people or he would not hath killed 100,000 of them.

One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives.

Excuseth Me?? Which gospel are THEY reading?? :mad:

If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers.

The writers of these words obviously hath no clue what the Kingdom of God even is. As I hath said, My Kingdom is not of THIS world.

Finally, some reading this column will surely ask, "Doesn't the sixth commandment say, 'Thou shalt not kill?'"

Actually, no; it says: "Thou shalt not commit murder."

War under false pretenses IS murder.

There is a difference between killing and murdering. In fact, many times God commanded capital punishment for those who break the law.

And I, the Messiah, did once interrupt such a capital punishment, commanding that the first stone only be cast by one who was without sin. Turns out that I was the only one there who met that qualification. And verily hath the son of Bush not committed every single sin that he hath accused his enemies of?

We continue to live in violent times. The Bible tells us war will be a reality until Christ returns. And when the time is right, Jesus will indeed come again, ending all wars.

Until that time, however, Christians must live as Galatians 6:2 instructs: "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

One cannot fulfill My law if one hath not a clue what it is :(

[ELVIS]

I believe ALL of the Bible...

I do not take it literally, except the parts that are intended to be taken literally, and there are such parts...

In no way do I "pick and choose" what parts to believe...

I participate in church on a daily basis, I attended service at least twice a week...

Our pastor is an amazing teacher, and he absolutely lives by the word of God...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Originally posted by ELVIS



One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives.

Excuseth Me?? Which gospel are THEY reading?? :mad:



Care to guesseth the name of the author ??

[BigBadBrian]

FORD, shut up. You have no clue. :gulp:

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
What Is an agnostic?
An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time.

Are agnostics atheists?
No. An atheist, like a Christian, holds that we can know whether or not there is a God. The Christian holds that we can know there is a God; the atheist, that we can know there is not. The Agnostic suspends judgment, saying that there are not sufficient grounds either for affirmation or for denial. At the same time, an Agnostic may hold that the existence of God, though not impossible, is very improbable; he may even hold it so improbable that it is not worth considering in practice. In that case, he is not far removed from atheism. His attitude may be that which a careful philosopher would have towards the gods of ancient Greece. If I were asked to prove that Zeus and Poseidon and Hera and the rest of the Olympians do not exist, I should be at a loss to find conclusive arguments. An Agnostic may think the Christian God as improbable as the Olympians; in that case, he is, for practical purposes, at one with the atheists.


You can forget about using logic and intelligence bro...


DLR'sCock is I guess, Agnostic, but prefers the term, "Student of Life", and is open to whatever the "Truth" truly is, if it is ever revealed or not, then one will know or not....I know nothing, but I am openminded and skeptical at the same time....


Life moves forward, or does it??

[ODShowtime]

This is the funniest part of the article:


Originally posted by ELVIS
WorldNetDaily.com

God even gives counsel to be wise in war. Proverbs 20:18: "Every purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war."

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
I know nothing, but I am openminded and skeptical at the same time....




Then why don't you take that openmindedness and skepticism to a church that actually teaches the Bible and then try to form an opinion ??

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
You can forget about using logic and intelligence bro...




Yeah Cock, we realize that every fucking time you post on this board you simpleton. :rolleyes:

[DLR'sCock]

oh poor poor Big Fat Brian, another feeble attempt from the president of scumbags annonymous to attack me....


wahhhh wahhhh wahhhh....

yawn....

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
FORD, shut up. You have no clue. :gulp:

Neither do you Pontius!

[academic punk]

Whether oyu belive in the Bible, I think we can all agree that there IS in fact a time to take up arms.

However, the REAL question is, "was this that time"?

The answer is, in fact, yes. This was a time for America to take military action. America had a RESPONSIBILITY to go to war in the mid-east. It was NECESSARY to go into an Arab nation and demand justice.

However, unfortunately, we got the mid-east country wrong. We were supposed to be in Afghanistan. Somehow we took a wrong turn at Pismo Beach and wound up in Iraq.

Go figure.

There's also a time for "gathering stones together", meaning to meditate on one's place, and be prepared to "cast" those stones, but be "centered" enough to thorw those stones in the right fucking direction.

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Then why don't you take that openmindedness and skepticism to a church that actually teaches the Bible and then try to form an opinion ??

hey bud, I have been there, done that(btw my uncle was a priest, I say was because he is dead...)...and I also have taken the time to read up on other forms of religions and I have had quite a fewdiffering experiences with differing religions.......and I have had many many discussions about theology, god and religion, with many differing clergymen in my day from a whole wide array of backgrounds.....

I don't get my point of view from one single ray of sunshine...I try to take in the whole sun, if I can....but again, I am human, and cannot believe that it is possible for me to even have a glimpse ofthe truth....but it's there.....


In general theology is intruiging from a historical, anthropological,and societal viewpoint......is there a "GOD"????.....it would be nice, and if there is, then kool....


Religions do teach good things, but people fuck it up big time...

[academic punk]

Well, who do you take to be the greatest religious icon, then El-rod?

Desmond Tutu, the Pope, Jesus Christ, or the President?

(hint: only one supports this war...and he planned it well before 9/11!)

[ELVIS]

Yeah, but going from source to source will lead you nowhere...

BTW, I would be confused too if I had an uncle who was a priest...:D

[academic punk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah, but going from source to source will lead you nowhere...

BTW, I would be confused too if I had an uncle who was a priest...:D


Whatever else you say about Elvis, give him this: that was pretty funny.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by academic punk
Well, who do you take to be the greatest religious icon, then El-rod?

Desmond Tutu, the Pope, Jesus Christ, or the President?

(hint: only one supports this war...and he planned it well before 9/11!)

Jesus Christ

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."" John 14:6

[academic punk]

The what about turning the other cheek?

The Old Testament (and the God of the Old Testament) is the one that's all about retribution, punishment, thunder, and vengeance.

Jesus was about passivism, brotherhood, redemption, and the wilingness to die for your beliefs and cause, but not to kill for them.

So, no, Jesus doesn't believe in war (as I understand Him). He does

[academic punk]

shit...is this site all screwy today or is that only happening to me?

[ELVIS]

No way was Jesus about passivism!

Why don't we just do away with the police, the military, or any authority ??

We will just turn the other cheek when the evil of the world confronts us...

C'mon dude!

Jesus stood for justice...

He surrendered to government authority...

[academic punk]

he stopped the fighting between the apostles and the soldiers, and gave himself up to secular authorities.

He also gave himself up to spiritual authorities (His Father, as opposed to the more luxurious - and less painful - temptation of the Devil).

Oh, wait...I didn't mean "passive"...I meant "passifist", if that's the confusion.

But the point is he didn't condone violence. In fact, he would repair the effects of violence as he could (restoring the soldiers ear after peter had torn it off with his sword).

So citing Ecclesiastes (sp?) is more of an Old Testament God thang, which I always understaood was meant to be replaced with the new (and improved) testament god of love and forgiveness and redemption, Jesus.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No way was Jesus about passivism!

Why don't we just do away with the police, the military, or any authority ??

We will just turn the other cheek when the evil of the world confronts us...

C'mon dude!

Jesus stood for justice...

He surrendered to government authority...

I've heard some scholars think Jesus may have been a guerilla fighter against the Roman occupation in his twenties. Any comments on this? Was Jesus the Che' Guevara of Galilee?

[ELVIS]

But the point is he didn't condone violence.

Yes, but defending law and justice is not violence, just as killing is not always murder...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Any comments on this?

No, never heard of such things...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yes, but defending law and justice is not violence, just as killing is not always murder...


as a student of law, I can assure you that law and justice are frequently two very seperate entiites

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by academic punk
So citing Ecclesiastes (sp?) is more of an Old Testament God thang, which I always understaood was meant to be replaced with the new (and improved) testament god of love and forgiveness and redemption, Jesus.

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law of Moses or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I believe ALL of the Bible...

I do not take it literally, except the parts that are intended to be taken literally, and there are such parts...

In no way do I "pick and choose" what parts to believe...



EXCEPT the part that are INTENDED.............


unfuckingbelievable:rolleyes:

Way to have it both ways.

Just WHO determines which parts are to be "taken literally"?

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by academic punk
as a student of law, I can assure you that law and justice are frequently two very seperate entiites

As a former breaker of the law, who has seen my share of "justice", I believe that...;)

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine

Just WHO determines which parts are to be "taken literally"?

It starts to become evident as you study God's word which parts are to be taken at face value, and which parts are more about their deeper meaning...

That's what real bible study is about, especially in a group setting...

I have had countless discussions with other Christians about these things...

This is where a good spiritual leader and teacher is needed...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
As a former breaker of the law, who has seen my share of "justice", I believe that...;)


Ah! Now this thread is getting interesting! Tell us how you do!

[ELVIS]

Most people here know my history...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by academic punk
Ah! Now this thread is getting interesting! Tell us how you do!

Oh great,

E is another Born-again sinner.

They're the most annoying of them all.:rolleyes:

Religion - Opiate for the Masses

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Most people here know my history...

He was born in a manger..............

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Most people here know my history...

...or was it a New Orleans Brothel?

i get confused:D

[ELVIS]

Oh, I forgot, you're not a sinner...:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Oh, I forgot, you're not a sinner...:rolleyes:

Do you have a point?

or are you just fishing:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_gospels/satan_tempts_jesus/lk04_09-10.jpg

[ELVIS]

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_gospels/satan_tempts_jesus/lk04_12.jpg


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Do you have a point?

or are you just fishing:rolleyes:

Have you not sinned according to the biblical description of sin ??

Sin is sin, and no sinful act is greater or lesser in the eyes of God...

The wages of sin is death.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Do you have a point?

or are you just fishing:rolleyes:


LM -

I have to agree with Elvis. What you;re saying is that people are incapable of change and growth. "Once a sinner, always a sinner".

The point of the legal system is supposed to be about CORRECTION, moreso than punishment. By saying what you are, LM, not only are you (from a biblical sense) casting the first stone, but from a political view, acting like a republican who believes we should just lock 'em all away and, if not throw away the key, then let "them" rot and figure it out for themselves after they get out.

I don't know your history, Elvis, and we clearly have differences of opinion, but good for you for finding a path that has hopefully helped you become a stabler, better person.

[ELVIS]

Thanks!


:elvis:

[academic punk]

I might also add, everyone should and deserves to have a criminal record. NO ONE has never done anything with 100% clean hands.

In large part, it's a matter of whether someone catches you, decides that they want to press charges, and how much money you have for a lawyer, and how much of a shit that he (or she) gives about you and your case (or, moreso, satisfying their own ego) after they have your money.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Sin is sin, and no sinful act is greater or lesser in the eyes of God...



I take that back on one level...

Willful sin, I believe is subject to greater punishment, as opposed to true mistakes, especially when applied to one who professes to be a true believer...

Screwing your neighbor's wife is NOT a mistake...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS

Screwing your neighbor's wife is NOT a mistake...

You got that right! Especially if she's hot! :cool:

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
You got that right! Especially if she's hot! :cool:


hahahahahahahahaha

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hmmm...

Becareful what you say Elvis, it can and WILL be held against you in a court of law!;) :D

[ELVIS]

That was being careful...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That was being careful...

Freudian slips will get you everytime! Is your neighbor's wife hot Elvis?

[ELVIS]

One is, but I don't know her...

[Cathedral]

Ford, I think you tripped, buddy.
Galatians 6:2 instructs: "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

Iraqi's were tortured and murdered under Saddams rule. Bush decided to bear their burdens and remove him. Now life there right now is a mess for them, but they are free, bro. You cannot put a price on freedom, but now they have a chance to make life worth living, kind of a precious time if you ask me.

Yeah, you can rise up against your government by waging all the BCE accusations you want, you have that right. But do you think that Iraqi's deserve less than you?

Jesus wasn't an American so Liberty, Freedom, and all that goes with it is not exclusive to our borders.
Jesus loved "ALL MANKIND", so what we have done in Afghanistan, and Iraq falls in line with Jesus Law. We are taking out tyranny and opression, taking on the burdens just as Jesus instructed.

Of course your political bias and unfounded hatred of Bush the man is far more important than the fact that whether you agree or not, Iraq needed to happen.
And if you even listened to Bush's Inaugural Speech, you'd know that Iraq and Afghanistan is just the beginning.

There is not one living soul on this planet that deserves to live under a brutal dictator like Saddam, and i feel for every damn one of them no matter if they hate my guts or not.

It doesn't take an educated man to see that we are truly in the end times. The Cold War was nothing compared to what lays just beyond the horizon for the world.
There will be mushroom clouds over America, I pray i am wrong, but I also know better than to be so nieve.
20 years ago it was feared, but deamed unlikely, but only because there was an understanding that human life is worth saving.
But today, we have many that would commit suicide to see America fall to its knee's.
Do we do nothing and pretend they aren't getting stronger?
Or do we react and confront the threat head on and minimize our own loses by Pre-emptive action?

On Sept. 11th, 2001 we saw what ignoring these threats will lead to, and i'd prefer to avoid as many innocent American deaths as possible.

In my mind, before 9-11 the terrorists target was our government, and a lot of us don't like the things they do.
But on 9-11 those fucks attacked us, the citizens, and waged a war with not only the government but the people who live under it and that just pisses me off.
They wanted war, they got it at the cost of 3,000 souls dead here at home.
You can continue to bitch about politics and hate the President if you want to, I'll grab a weapon and step outside and face our enemies as opposed to turning it around to find fault with our own country.

You seriously don't understand that with your arguments you do more to benefit our enemies than you do your own homeland.
How is that American?
Vietnam was the wrong war at the wrong time, and we fucked up over there....But Iraq is no Vietnam, and the pluses of having a free and democratic middle east will resonate across the globe with positive results.
That doesn't say much for what condition America will be in after it all, but then again, I'm sure it beats the alternative of sitting and waiting, hoping another 9-11 never happens again, or on a much larger scale.

You also don't seem to grasp that you can support this war effort and those dying on all sides without supporting a President you didn't want.

I don't believe that God sanctions war, But i do believe he chooses sides in all of them.
He doesn't defeat the enemy for you, but he blesses your victory and has played a part in some very key confrontations throughout history.

Iraq is no different in that respect, but I have always believed that we were weak for dealing with dictators instead of freeing the people who suffer under their rule.
Bush Sr. pulling out in '91 made me madder than hell, because we all knew they were told to uprise against Saddam and then had no support.
That is why there were no flowers thrown for the liberators this time, and that is why it is taking so long for them to see this golden opportunity for just that, a golden opportunity.
But they will, and that day is growing ever closer.

No human should suffer under another humans brutality, and if we as a Nation have the power to bring forth change in those places it is our ultimate responsibility to do so.

Liberals love to throw past dealings with these fucks in the faces of the Republicans, but even after Bush states that that will no longer be the case you still have no respect for the office he holds.

I have a hard time seeing some of the tactics as patriotic or Pro-American when even after you claim you are just expressing your right to free speech what you say and do makes life more difficult for our fighting men and women.

I have two friends that are mind fucked from being in Iraq, but it wasn't being there that fucked their mind. It was the double talk and liber bias media coverage they discovered after returning home that did it. Sorry, but y'all failed because they don't feel the support you all claim to be showing for them and i know why.
Your thoughts are never of the soldiers until you are confronted with it because you are too distracted by your hatred for one man named Bush.
I'm serious, because both of them came home feeling proud of the work they did. It is all the bullshit they see being printed and reported and then the cold shoulder of the people they wear that uniform to protect that destroyed that pride and almost replaced it with guilt by running your liberal mouths about things that can only be defined as conspiracy theories.

Funny how they seem to have the opinion that our citizens are misinformed by the media and that "if you have never set foot in Iraq since this war began you have no fucking idea what your talking about and need to shut the fuck up already" and the last part is a quote by the way.

The point is, this has already been foretold and the things that are happening are only fullfilling the prophecy and will surely come to pass.
Just be careful not to do to Bush what was done to Jesus unless you have evidence that will remove them from office and place them in prison, which to date i have yet to see materialize.

[FORD]

Geezus, I don't even know where to begin with that rant. You have definitely OD'd on the PNAC kool-aid. :(

[blueturk]

I'm not an atheist by any means, but I can't help but be leery of someone who says that "I trust that God speaks through me.", or claims that God told him to start this war.
Bush's practice of invoking God's name to further his agendas reminds me of Oral Roberts and his "conversation' with God regarding his efforts to open his medical school,in which God would "call him home" if enough money wasn't raised.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by blueturk
I'm not an atheist by any means, but I can't help but be leery of someone who says that "I trust that God speaks through me.", or claims that God told him to start this war.


Let's see those quotes...:rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral

I have two friends that are mind fucked from being in Iraq, but it wasn't being there that fucked their mind. It was the double talk and liber bias media coverage they discovered after returning home that did it. Sorry, but y'all failed because they don't feel the support you all claim to be showing for them and i know why.


You are kidding right?! Your friends' minds are "fucked" from the supposed media's "libera bias?" You mean after the road side bombs, shootings, ambushes, and seeing children killed by both sides in the conflict, IT WAS MEDIA COVERAGE that pushed them over the edge?
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/34/951/640/what%20if%20its%20all%20bullshit.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Let's see those quotes...:rolleyes:

Published on Monday, June 30, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
Did Bush Say God Told Him To Go To War?
by Ira Chernus


Did God tell George W. Bush to strike at Al-Qaeda and Iraq? God only knows. Did Bush SAY that God told him to strike? We don't know yet, for sure. But we damn well better find out. Because if George W. said it, he-and all of us-could be in for some big trouble.

Here is what we know for sure, so far. Journalist Arnon Regular wrote, in the June 26 edition of Ha'aretz (Israel's most reputable newspaper), that he has minutes of a meeting among top-level Palestinian leaders, including Prime Minister Mahmoud Abas. The minutes are apparently quite detailed, because Regular wrote a long article recounting very specific conversations. The last paragraph of the article reads:

"According to Abbas, Bush said: 'God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.'"

Before you jump to any conclusions, remember that you are reading a translation of a translation of a translation. Mahmoud Abas does not speak English. Bush does not speak Arabic. If Bush said these words, or something like them, Abas heard them from a translator. Then Abas repeated them, as he remembered them a couple of weeks later, in Arabic. Some unknown person wrote down what he thought he heard Abas say. Then Regular, or someone at Ha'aretz, translated them back into English-or perhaps first into Hebrew and then into English.

Clearly, we don't yet know what Bush said, or why. Just as clearly, the man has some explaining to do. And whatever the truth of the matter, he has serious problems.

First, let's give him some benefit of the doubt. Maybe he never said it. The quote could be fabricated-though it is hard to see who would gain by making it up. Maybe he did say God told him to make war, but he doesn't really believe it. He might have made it up for effect, trying to score some political points in the Middle East.

Whatever benefit he got should be far outweighed by the price he has to pay here at home. This is no little incident that can slip away and be forgotten. Once Bush is called to account, his problems will really begin.

If he confirms the Ha'aretz report, those of us who say God has no place in the Oval Office had better ring the alarm, as loud and long as we can. If he truly believes that he hears the voice of God, there is no telling what God might say tomorrow. This is a man who can launch the world's biggest arsenal of weapons of mass destruction-biological, chemical, and nuclear-at any moment...
The Rest (http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0630-04.htm)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Let's see those quotes...:rolleyes:

Indeed. Let's see 'em. Now. Most of them rolling around the Internet have been made up and that's a FACT. :gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Indeed. Let's see 'em. Now. Most of them rolling around the Internet have been made up and that's a FACT. :gulp:

....because FAUX News told you so, right?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Liberals love to throw past dealings with these fucks in the faces of the Republicans, but even after Bush states that that will no longer be the case you still have no respect for the office he holds.


Cathedral, why would anyone trust anything he says? HE'S A LIAR AND IT'S BEEN PROVEN!!!.

He has no credibility left and that's why no one ever should have voted for him. Yeah, "he does what he says." Bullshit. Yes he said he'd free other oppressed people in his inaugeration address. I believe that in a way, he will go to war again, but liberating people will not be his true goal.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
You are kidding right?! Your friends' minds are "fucked" from the supposed media's "libera bias?" You mean after the road side bombs, shootings, ambushes, and seeing children killed by both sides in the conflict, IT WAS MEDIA COVERAGE that pushed them over the edge?
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/34/951/640/what%20if%20its%20all%20bullshit.jpg

No, it wasn't the media coverage alone.
How would you feel if you were sent to a foreign land to liberate a society from tyranny and opression, only to come home and find that you don't have the full support of your country?

The problem is that for every person that honors them, there are those who treat them like they were criminals.

The soldiers are doing their best to protect the innocent during this war, but when your enemy is the one placing them between you and them you have to put the blame where it belongs.
They come home feeling pride for the good things they have done but none of that resonated over here because the bad news was the only thing that got coverage. and according to those i have spoken with, a lot of that reporting was innacurate and has remained un-corrected.

The good things outweigh the bad in Iraq, but you cannot tell that from the garbage and spin being shoved down our throats daily.

If you agree with this war or not, we should all remember who it is that is fighting it, and his name isn't Bush.
They are there, and the job must be finished before they come home.
It's the least we can do to keep from allowing them to feel dishonored when they return.
That is basically the only thing that reminds me of Vietnam in this mess.
I haven't heard of soldiers being spit on yet, but i can't imagine that being far off given the mentality of some who aren't over there seeing the truth first hand.

All i know is what i am told, and i'm inclined to believe the words of a person who was in the thick of it instead of some suited up journalist who only knows what he/she is told by whatever sources he/she relies on for their facts.
As i have said, there aren't any corrections made when the reporting is clearly faulty.

This is the reason i don't really want to form any opinions about it anymore. I just want our men and women to come home safe and leave Iraq with a fighting chance to live free.

And Ford, what flavor Kool-Aide do you prefer?
As i have stated before, If there is evidence of all the things you claim this administration is guilty of then why in the hell are these issues not being persued legally?
If you show me proof that wasn't fabricated, the kind that convicts crimals, then i'd join your fight in removing them from Washington.

It isn't like you haven't spent the last 4 years bitching about it non-stop, so are we basically just going to hear the same shit for another 4 years?
I don't see the logic in your thinking here.

Clinton couldn't even get away with getting a blowjob for crying out loud, so are we to believe that Bush could rack up a list of crimes and remain unpunished for them?
Sorry man, I find that completely hard to believe in this techno day and age.

The fact is that it is all just well fabricated speculation because if there was anything that could be used to boot Bush from office, there are enough Liberals to take him to task for it.

Am i wrong in thinking that? and if so, please explain. :)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
No, it wasn't the media coverage alone.
How would you feel if you were sent to a foreign land to liberate a society from tyranny and opression, only to come home and find that you don't have the full support of your country?



They're being misled then.

Everyone I know supports the men and women over their fighting for their lives.

It's the actions, words, and deeds of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfie, et al that WE DONT SUPPORT.

If they can't tell the difference, then I am at a loss.

Besides, some that I've spoken to are just as pissed about being misled regarding the RE$ASONS for their deployment as anything.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
They're being misled then.

Everyone I know supports the men and women over their fighting for their lives.

It's the actions, words, and deeds of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Wolfie, et al that WE DONT SUPPORT.

If they can't tell the difference, then I am at a loss.

Besides, some that I've spoken to are just as pissed about being misled regarding the RE$ASONS for their deployment as anything.

I can see both sides of the issue, which makes it very difficult for me to find a position to take.
So i stand behind the soldiers in any case.
The problem i think is the atmosphere of division, all i suggest is that we all think really hard before speaking our mind.
I'm sure you believe as i do that political banter aside, the safety of our military should be the top priority.

I'd like to think that politics end when fighting begins, but that is only true in a perfect world, especially in a war of this nature.

I just loath human suffering, but am optomistic that peace is attainable.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I can see both sides of the issue, which makes it very difficult for me to find a position to take.
So i stand behind the soldiers in any case.
The problem i think is the atmosphere of division, all i suggest is that we all think really hard before speaking our mind.
I'm sure you believe as i do that political banter aside, the safety of our military should be the top priority.

I'd like to think that politics end when fighting begins, but that is only true in a perfect world, especially in a war of this nature.

I just loath human suffering, but am optomistic that peace is attainable.

As a veteran, I too stand very much in support for the warriors in this conflict, that's why I want to get them home as safely and as soon as possible. I really haven't seen any reporting that is especially disparaging towards our soldiers.

But I have taken a few psychology classes and having viewed numerous programs on post-traumatic stress disorder. I think I can safely say that it is entirely impossible that merely viewing media coverage, no matter how negative will cause someone to go over the edge. Though sometimes I want to kick my TV when I hear the likes of Bill O'Reilly on Fox. Only the wartime experiences these guys had will cause trauma. Specifically, the suppressing of emotions during stressful or upsetting events in order to function in the heat of battle.

Seriously, I'll be very interested to see a study that compares the actual exposure ratio (as measured in the 'Days in Combat) of combat of veterans of this war as compared to Vietnam or WWII. I bet you, due to that fact the Military is effectively under-strength in Iraq, the day-to-day stress is much higher than previous conflicts.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Oh, I forgot, you're not a sinner...:rolleyes:

By all means, please quote where I said this...:rolleyes:

typical

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I
.
So i stand behind the soldiers in any case.
.

Too bad your Administration doesn't.

Why are they slashing Veteran Benefits?

Why do they make a Sargeant the SCAPEGOAT for Abu Grahib when it came from the top?

Why isnt Armor a TOP PRIORITY with Bush/Runny?

[blueturk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Indeed. Let's see 'em. Now. Most of them rolling around the Internet have been made up and that's a FACT. :gulp:

On July 16 of last year,Bush told an Amish group in Pennsylvania that "I trust God speaks through me.Without that,I couldn't do my job." Of course, you can't trust those damn Amish though.What do they know about faith?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Too bad your Administration doesn't.

Why are they slashing Veteran Benefits?



Prove it. You can't because it simply isn't true. Veterans Benefits spending is actually up 27% from the previous Administration as per Factcheck.org. :gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine

Why isnt Armor a TOP PRIORITY with Bush/Runny?

Which armor are you referring to?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Prove it. You can't because it simply isn't true. Veterans Benefits spending is actually up 27% from the previous Administration as per Factcheck.org. :gulp: MSN Home | My MSN | Hotmail | Shopping | Money | People & Chat Web Search:


MSNBC News
Jan. 24: What happens when soldiers return home after fighting in Iraq? Do they get the benefits they need to survive? Many veterans organizations say no. NBC's Chip Reid reports.
Nightly News

Veterans groups gripe about military benefits
Do troops get what they need when they return?
By Chip Reid
Correspondent
NBC News
Updated: 7:31 p.m. ET Jan. 24, 2005They risk their lives and endure brutally violent conditions on tours of duty that average almost a year. What sustains them through it all is the dream of coming home. But what's next? When returning troops reach U.S. soil, do they get the help they need?


"It should be the No. 1 priority of this country to recognize their efforts and, when they return, to ensure that the benefits are available to them," says Peter Gaytan with the American Legion.

Too often, though, resources and programs are not available, according to many veterans organizations.

For example:

Health care: More than 10,000 U.S. troops have been wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan, overwhelming the veterans health care system in some states — where injured veterans wait months to get help.
Education: The GI bill gives veterans money for college. But vets groups say the funding doesn't match what school really costs.
Death benefit: The families of the nearly 1,500 U.S. troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan receive only about $12,000.
CONGRESS CONSIDERS CHANGES
Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., proposed the HEROES Act (Honoring Every Requirement of Exemplary Service) on Jan. 24, 2005. Here are the key parts of the proposal:

— Raise the death gratuity from $12,420 to $100,000 retroactive to the war in Afghanistan
— Raise maximum servicemen's life insurance (SGLI) from $250,000 to $400,000

"Twelve-thousand dollars is a paltry and miserly amount," says Sen. George Allen, R-Va.

Now some members of Congress want to increase the benefit to $100,000.

The problem in all these issues, according to veterans groups, is too little money. In a time of war, they say funding for veterans should be going up. But veterans groups are worried that when President Bush issues his budget proposal next month, veterans programs will be frozen or maybe even cut.


Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., a big advocate for veterans, learned how hard it is to increase funding. He was chairman of the House Veterans Affairs Committee, but not anymore.

"It's our contention that in the eyes of the leadership he did too good a job," says Dennis Cullinan of the Veterans of Foreign Wars. "He was clearly pushed out. It's unprecedented."

The president's choice to be the new secretary of veterans affairs was asked Monday if veterans will get the assistance they need.

"My commitment in taking on this job, if I am given the privilege, is to the veterans and their needs, because I feel it, and they deserve it," Jim Nicholson told the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee.

But Nicholson stressed that funds are finite and left open the possibility of cuts in programs as the troops come home.

© 2005 MSNBC Interactive

[BigBadBrian]

LM, you countered my argument with an article on proposed legislation. Legislation I agree with, by the way. It doesn't exactly counter my original argument, however, does it? I'm a member of two veterans groups. We'll always ask for more....regardless who is in office and regardless how much they give us to begin with. That is how the Federal Budget game is played. :gulp:

[Angel]

Originally posted by ELVIS
God and the Bible are fairy tales ??


In a word.... YES!

[YAH'WEH]

Originally posted by blueturk
On July 16 of last year,Bush told an Amish group in Pennsylvania that "I trust God speaks through me.Without that,I couldn't do my job." Of course, you can't trust those damn Amish though.What do they know about faith?


is it for you to question faith?

[blueturk]

Originally posted by YAH'WEH
is it for you to question faith?

Good Lord (no pun intended)! I was being sarcastic.