Secretly Recorded Bush Interviews From 1998

[blueturk]

In Secretly Taped Conversations, Glimpses of the Future President
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

Published: February 20, 2005


ASHINGTON, Feb. 19 - As George W. Bush was first moving onto the national political stage, he often turned for advice to an old friend who secretly taped some of their private conversations, creating a rare record of the future president as a politician and a personality.

In the last several weeks, that friend, Doug Wead, an author and former aide to Mr. Bush's father, disclosed the tapes' existence to a reporter and played about a dozen of them.

Variously earnest, confident or prickly in those conversations, Mr. Bush weighs the political risks and benefits of his religious faith, discusses campaign strategy and comments on rivals. John McCain "will wear thin," he predicted. John Ashcroft, he confided, would be a "very good Supreme Court pick" or a "fabulous" vice president. And in exchanges about his handling of questions from the news media about his past, Mr. Bush appears to have acknowledged trying marijuana.

Mr. Wead said he recorded the conversations because he viewed Mr. Bush as a historic figure, but he said he knew that the president might regard his actions as a betrayal. As the author of a new book about presidential childhoods, Mr. Wead could benefit from any publicity, but he said that was not a motive in disclosing the tapes.

The White House did not dispute the authenticity of the tapes or respond to their contents. Trent Duffy, a White House spokesman, said, "The governor was having casual conversations with someone he believed was his friend." Asked about drug use, Mr. Duffy said, "That has been asked and answered so many times there is nothing more to add."

The conversations Mr. Wead played offer insights into Mr. Bush's thinking from the time he was weighing a run for president in 1998 to shortly before he accepted the Republican nomination in 2000. Mr. Wead had been a liaison to evangelical Protestants for the president's father, and the intersection of religion and politics is a recurring theme in the talks.

Preparing to meet Christian leaders in September 1998, Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead, "As you said, there are some code words. There are some proper ways to say things, and some improper ways." He added, "I am going to say that I've accepted Christ into my life. And that's a true statement."

But Mr. Bush also repeatedly worried that prominent evangelical Christians would not like his refusal "to kick gays." At the same time, he was wary of unnerving secular voters by meeting publicly with evangelical leaders. When he thought his aides had agreed to such a meeting, Mr. Bush complained to Karl Rove, his political strategist, "What the hell is this about?"

Mr. Bush, who has acknowledged a drinking problem years ago, told Mr. Wead on the tapes that he could withstand scrutiny of his past. He said it involved nothing more than "just, you know, wild behavior." He worried, though, that allegations of cocaine use would surface in the campaign, and he blamed his opponents for stirring rumors. "If nobody shows up, there's no story," he told Mr. Wead, "and if somebody shows up, it is going to be made up." But when Mr. Wead said that Mr. Bush had in the past publicly denied using cocaine, Mr. Bush replied, "I haven't denied anything."

He refused to answer reporters' questions about his past behavior, he said, even though it might cost him the election. Defending his approach, Mr. Bush said: "I wouldn't answer the marijuana questions. You know why? Because I don't want some little kid doing what I tried."

He mocked Vice President Al Gore for acknowledging marijuana use. "Baby boomers have got to grow up and say, yeah, I may have done drugs, but instead of admitting it, say to kids, don't do them," he said.

Mr. Bush threatened that if his rival Steve Forbes attacked him too hard during the campaign and won, both Mr. Bush, then the Texas governor, and his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida, would withhold their support. "He can forget Texas. And he can forget Florida. And I will sit on my hands," Mr. Bush said.

The private Mr. Bush sounds remarkably similar in many ways to the public President Bush. Many of the taped comments foreshadow aspects of his presidency, including his opposition to both anti-gay language and recognizing same-sex marriage, his skepticism about the United Nations, his sense of moral purpose and his focus on cultivating conservative Christian voters.

Mr. Wead said he withheld many tapes of conversations that were repetitive or of a purely personal nature. The dozen conversations he agreed to play ranged in length from five minutes to nearly half an hour. In them, the future president affectionately addresses Mr. Wead as "Weadie" or "Weadnik," asks if his children still believe in Santa Claus, and chides him for skipping a doctor's appointment. Mr. Bush also regularly gripes about the barbs of the press and his rivals. And he is cocky at times. "It's me versus the world," he told Mr. Wead. "The good news is, the world is on my side. Or more than half of it."

Other presidents, such as Richard M. Nixon and Lyndon B. Johnson, secretly recorded conversations from the White House. Some former associates of President Bill Clinton taped personal conversations in apparent efforts to embarrass or entrap him. But Mr. Wead's recordings are a rare example of a future president taped at length without his knowledge talking about matters of public interest like his political strategy and priorities.

Mr. Wead first acknowledged the tapes to a reporter in December to defend the accuracy of a passage about Mr. Bush in his new book, "The Raising of a President." He did not mention the tapes in the book or footnotes, saying he drew on them for only one page of the book. He said he never sought to sell or profit from them. He said he made the tapes in states where it was legal to do so with only one party's knowledge.

Mr. Wead eventually agreed to play a dozen tapes on the condition that the names of any private citizens be withheld. The New York Times hired Tom Owen, an expert on audio authentication, to examine samples from the tapes. He concluded the voice was that of the president.

A White House adviser to the first President Bush, Mr. Wead said in an interview in The Washington Post in 1990 that Andrew H. Card Jr., then deputy chief of staff, told him to leave the administration "sooner rather than later" after he sent conservatives a letter faulting the White House for inviting gay activists to an event. But Mr. Wead said he left on good terms. He never had a formal role in the current president's campaign, though the tapes suggest he had angled for one.

Mr. Wead said he admired George W. Bush and stayed in touch with some members of his family. While he said he has not communicated with the president since early in his first term, he attributed that to Mr. Bush's busy schedule.

Mr. Wead said he recorded his conversations with the president in part because he thought he might be asked to write a book for the campaign. He also wanted a clear account of any requests Mr. Bush made of him. But he said his main motivation in making the tapes, which he originally intended to be released only after his own death, was to leave the nation a unique record of Mr. Bush.

"I believe that, like him or not, he is going to be a huge historical figure," Mr. Wead said. "If I was on the telephone with Churchill or Gandhi, I would tape record them too."

Summer of 1998

The first of the taped conversations Mr. Wead disclosed took place in the summer of 1998, when Mr. Bush was running for his second term as Texas governor. At the time, Mr. Bush was considered a political moderate who worked well with Democrats and was widely admired by Texans of both parties. His family name made him a strong presidential contender, but he had not yet committed to run.

Still, in a conversation that November on the eve of Mr. Bush's re-election, his confidence was soaring. "I believe tomorrow is going to change Texas politics forever," he told Mr. Wead. "The top three offices right below me will be the first time there has been a Republican in that slot since the Civil War. Isn't that amazing? And I hate to be a braggart, but they are going to win for one reason: me."

Talking to Mr. Wead, a former Assemblies of God minister who was well connected in conservative evangelical circles, Mr. Bush's biggest concern about the Republican presidential primary was shoring up his right flank. Mr. Forbes was working hard to win the support of conservative Christians by emphasizing his opposition to abortion. "I view him as a problem, don't you?" Mr. Bush asked.

Mr. Bush knew that his own religious faith could be an asset with conservative Christian voters, and his personal devotion was often evident in the taped conversations. When Mr. Wead warned him that "power corrupts," for example, Mr. Bush told him not to worry: "I have got a great wife. And I read the Bible daily. The Bible is pretty good about keeping your ego in check."

In November 1999, he told his friend that he had been deeply moved by a memorial service for students who died in an accident when constructing a Thanksgiving weekend bonfire at Texas A & M University, especially by the prayers by friends of the students.

In another conversation, he described a "powerful moment" visiting the site of the Sermon on the Mount in Israel with a group of state governors, where he read "Amazing Grace" aloud. "I look forward to sharing this at some point in time," he told Mr. Wead about the event.

Preparing to meet with influential Christian conservatives, Mr. Bush tested his lines with Mr. Wead. "I'm going to tell them the five turning points in my life," he said. "Accepting Christ. Marrying my wife. Having children. Running for governor. And listening to my mother."

In September 1998, Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead that he was getting ready for his first meeting with James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family, an evangelical self-help group. Dr. Dobson, probably the most influential evangelical conservative, wanted to examine the candidate's Christian credentials.

"He said he would like to meet me, you know, he had heard some nice things, you know, well, 'I don't know if he is a true believer' kind of attitude," Mr. Bush said.

Mr. Bush said he intended to reassure Dr. Dobson of his opposition to abortion. Mr. Bush said he was concerned about rumors that Dr. Dobson had been telling others that the "Bushes weren't going to be involved in abortion," meaning that the Bush family preferred to avoid the issue rather than fight over it.

"I just don't believe I said that. Why would I have said that?" Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead with annoyance.

By the end of the primary, Mr. Bush alluded to Dr. Dobson's strong views on abortion again, apparently ruling out potential vice presidents including Gov. Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania and Gen. Colin L. Powell, who favored abortion rights. Picking any of them could turn conservative Christians away from the ticket, Mr. Bush said.

"They are not going to like it anyway, boy," Mr. Bush said. "Dobson made it clear."

Signs of Concern

Early on, though, Mr. Bush appeared most worried that Christian conservatives would object to his determination not to criticize gay people. "I think he wants me to attack homosexuals," Mr. Bush said after meeting James Robison, a prominent evangelical minister in Texas.

But Mr. Bush said he did not intend to change his position. He said he told Mr. Robison: "Look, James, I got to tell you two things right off the bat. One, I'm not going to kick gays, because I'm a sinner. How can I differentiate sin?"

Later, he read aloud an aide's report from a convention of the Christian Coalition, a conservative political group: "This crowd uses gays as the enemy. It's hard to distinguish between fear of the homosexual political agenda and fear of homosexuality, however."

"This is an issue I have been trying to downplay," Mr. Bush said. "I think it is bad for Republicans to be kicking gays."

Told that one conservative supporter was saying Mr. Bush had pledged not to hire gay people, Mr. Bush said sharply: "No, what I said was, I wouldn't fire gays."

As early as 1998, however, Mr. Bush had already identified one gay-rights issue where he found common ground with conservative Christians: same-sex marriage. "Gay marriage, I am against that. Special rights, I am against that," Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead, five years before a Massachusetts court brought the issue to national attention.

Mr. Bush took stock of conservative Christian views of foreign policy as well. Reading more of the report from the Christian Coalition meeting, Mr. Bush said to Mr. Wead: "Sovereignty. The issue is huge. The mere mention of Kofi Annan in the U.N. caused the crowd to go into a veritable fit. The coalition wants America strong and wants the American flag flying overseas, not the pale blue of the U.N."

As eager as Mr. Bush was to cultivate the support of Christian conservatives, he did not want to do it too publicly for fear of driving away more secular voters. When Mr. Wead warned Mr. Bush to avoid big meetings with evangelical leaders, Mr. Bush said, "I'm just going to have one," and, "This is not meant to be public."

Past Behavior

Many of the taped conversations revolve around Mr. Bush's handling of questions about his past behavior. In August 1998, he worried that the scandals of the Clinton administration had sharpened journalists' determination to investigate the private lives of candidates. He even expressed a hint of sympathy for his Democratic predecessor.

"I don't like it either," Mr. Bush said of the Clinton investigations. "But on the other hand, I think he has disgraced the nation."

When Mr. Wead warned that he had heard reporters talking about Mr. Bush's "immature" past, Mr. Bush said, "That's part of my schtick, which is, look, we have all made mistakes."

He said he learned "a couple of really good lines" from Mr. Robison, the Texas pastor: "What you need to say time and time again is not talk about the details of your transgressions but talk about what I have learned. I've sinned and I've learned."

"I said, 'James' - he stopped - I said, 'I did some things when I was young that were immature,' " Mr. Bush said. "He said, 'But have you learned?' I said, 'James, that's the difference between me and the president. I've learned. I am prepared to accept the responsibility of this office.' "By the summer of 1999, Mr. Bush was telling Mr. Wead his approach to such prying questions had evolved. "I think it is time for somebody to just draw the line and look people in the eye and say, I am not going to participate in ugly rumors about me, and blame my opponents, and hold the line, and stand up for a system that will not allow this kind of crap to go on."

Later, however, Mr. Bush worried that his refusal to answer questions about whether he had used illegal drugs in the past could prove costly, but he held out nonetheless. "I am just not going to answer those questions. And it might cost me the election," he told Mr. Wead.

He complained repeatedly about the press scrutiny, accusing the news media of a "campaign" against him. While he talked of certain reporters as "pro-Bush" and commented favorably on some publications (U.S. News & World Report is "halfway decent," but Time magazine is "awful"), he vented frequently to Mr. Wead about what he considered the liberal bias and invasiveness of the news media in general.

"It's unbelievable," Mr. Bush said, reciting various rumors about his past that his aides had picked up from reporters. "They just float sewer out there."

Mr. Bush bristled at even an implicit aspersion on his past behavior from Dan Quayle, the former vice president and a rival candidate.

"He's gone ugly on me, man," Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead. Mr. Bush quoted Mr. Quayle as saying, "I'm proud of what I did before 40."

"As if I am not!" Mr. Bush said.

Sizing Up Opponents

During the primary contest, Mr. Bush often sized up his dozen Republican rivals, assessing their appeal to conservative Christian voters, their treatment of him and their prospects of serving in a future Bush administration. He paid particular attention to Senator John Ashcroft. "I like Ashcroft a lot," he told Mr. Wead in November 1998. "He is a competent man. He would be a good Supreme Court pick. He would be a good attorney general. He would be a good vice president."

When Mr. Wead predicted an uproar if Mr. Ashcroft were appointed to the court because of his conservative religious views, Mr. Bush replied, "Well, tough."

While Mr. Bush thought the conservative Christian candidates Gary L. Bauer and Alan Keyes would probably scare away moderates, he saw Mr. Ashcroft as an ally because he would draw evangelical voters into the race.

"I want Ashcroft to stay in there, and I want him to be very strong," Mr. Bush said. " I would love it to be a Bush-Ashcroft race. Only because I respect him. He wouldn't say ugly things about me. And I damn sure wouldn't say ugly things about him."

But Mr. Bush was sharply critical of Mr. Forbes, another son of privilege with a famous last name. Evangelicals were not going to like him, Mr. Bush said. "He's too preppy," Mr. Bush said, calling Mr. Forbes "mean spirited."

Recalling the bruising primary fight Mr. Forbes waged against Bob Dole in 1996, Mr. Bush told Mr. Wead, "Steve Forbes is going to hear this message from me. I will do nothing for him if he does to me what he did to Dole. Period. There is going to be a consequence. He is not dealing with the average, you know, 'Oh gosh, let's all get together after it's over.' I will promise you, I will not help him. I don't care."

Another time, Mr. Bush discussed offering Mr. Forbes a job as economic adviser or even secretary of commerce, if Mr. Forbes would approach him first.

Mr. Bush's political predictions were not always on the mark. Before the New Hampshire primary, Mr. Bush all but dismissed Senator John McCain, who turned out to be his strongest challenger.

"He's going to wear very thin when it is all said and done," he said.

When Mr. Wead suggested in June 2000 that Mr. McCain's popularity with Democrats and moderate voters might make him a strong vice presidential candidate, Mr. Bush almost laughed. "Oh, come on!" He added, "I don't know if he helps us win."

Mr. Bush could hardly contain his disdain for Mr. Gore, his Democratic opponent, at one point calling him "pathologically a liar." His confidence in the moral purpose of his campaign to usher in "a responsibility era" never wavered, but he acknowledged that winning might require hard jabs. "I may have to get a little rough for a while," he told Mr. Wead, "but that is what the old man had to do with Dukakis, remember?"

For his part, Mr. Wead said what was most resonant about the conversations with Mr. Bush was his concern that his past behavior might come back to haunt him. Mr. Wead said he used the tapes for his book because Mr. Bush's life so clearly fit his thesis: that presidents often grow up overshadowed by another sibling.

"What I saw in George W. Bush is that he purposefully put himself in the shadows by his irresponsible behavior as a young person," Mr. Wead said. That enabled him to come into his own outside the glare of his parents' expectations, Mr. Wead said.

Why disclose the tapes? "I just felt that the historical point I was making trumped a personal relationship," Mr. Wead said. Asked about consequences, Mr. Wead said, "I'll always be friendly toward him."

[ashstralia]

the more i learn about dubya,
the more i like him..
flame on!

[ELVIS]

Yeah right...

Where's the link ??

[FORD]

Has P. Diddy or Dr. Dre heard these tapes yet? We could have a rap album from CWA* before the end of the year.

*-Chimps With Attitude

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah right...

Where's the link ??

here....
from our local (non murdoch) rag

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah right...

Where's the link ??

here....
from our local (non murdoch) rag
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/02/20/1108834648462.html?from=top5

[blueturk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah right...

Where's the link ??

Damn Elvis! Do you think I made this up? This article is from The New York Times. Look it up yourself.

[Nickdfresh]

Elvis has a point, we need to post links.

Bush is a pretty ambiguous, complex dude. But he's still a dumb dick.

[Warham]

But smarter than you, right? :D

[blueturk]

Here's the link to the article I posted. Although I think if I had posted an article on Dubya's secret life as a war hero or something, Elvis wouldn't care about a link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/politics/20talk.html

[Warham]

The New York Times...it should really be called the DNC Times.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Warham
The New York Times...it should really be called the DNC Times.

Hell yeah! How dare those bastards print some unscripted remarks from Dubya! Motherfuckers!

"I hope you leave here and walk out and say, 'What did he say?'" —George W. Bush, Beaverton, Oregon, Aug. 13, 2004

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
But smarter than you, right? :D

About the same intelligence level; which scares me.:D

I really don't think Bush is dumb. But I don't think he has the intellectual capacity to be president either. He doesn't read the paper, he reads only the books that serve to reinforce his agenda, and he seems genuinely unaware of the issues, for a president.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
The New York Times...it should really be called the DNC Times.

God forbid they post a story that is unflattering to your cult-leader.

And they NEVER posted critical articles on you-know-who, the previous Democratic president.

[ODShowtime]

gw's a bum in the first place

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
About the same intelligence level; which scares me.:D

I really don't think Bush is dumb. But I don't think he has the intellectual capacity to be president either. He doesn't read the paper, he reads only the books that serve to reinforce his agenda, and he seems genuinely unaware of the issues, for a president.

Isn't that what folks thought of Reagan as well? Too dumb to be President, but now widely regarded as one of our ten greatest.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Warham
Isn't that what folks thought of Reagan as well? Too dumb to be President, but now widely regarded as one of our ten greatest.

Although I don't consider Reagan to be a great president, he did have diplomacy skills, something that Bush sorely lacks.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Isn't that what folks thought of Reagan as well? Too dumb to be President, but now widely regarded as one of our ten greatest.

Or ten most overrated. The book on Reagan, coming from many of his former advisors, is that he wasn't stupid, but never seem interested in the details of policy.

To paraphrase the quote, it went something like "I've never seen a man in such a high office care so little or show such little interest in his post."

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Or ten most overrated. The book on Reagan, coming from many of his former advisors, is that he wasn't stupid, but never seem interested in the details of policy.

To paraphrase the quote, it went something like "I've never seen a man in such a high office care so little or show such little interest in his post."

That's just it. A man as high as the President SHOULD NOT be interested in the details all the time...only when needed and warranted.

There is just too much going on with all the governmental agencies for the POTUS to know it all. He simply must rely on his advisors and Cabinet officers.

The President is like an NFL Head Coach now. No Head Coach in the NFL can do it all with the game the way it is today. He is nothing without a good staff. The same for the POTUS> Sad, but true. When you elect a President now days, you are electing an entire Administration. Think about it.

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
When you elect a President now days, you are electing an entire Administration. Think about it.

And that's exactly why Junior is the absolute worst pResident ever. Because his entire Fraudministration is composed of war criminals, liars, and traitors. And an idiot as the supposed leader.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
And that's exactly why Junior is the absolute worst pResident ever. Because his entire Fraudministration is composed of war criminals, liars, and traitors. And an idiot as the supposed leader.

One has to go back to Halderman, Erlichman, Dean, Colson, etc to find a group of degenerate LIARS, CHEATS, and WHORES as bad as this group of scum sucking vermin.

Beware the second term:D

[Ozzy Fudd]

I just been handed this photo of bush making a Bomb run of his own.

All bullshit aside , the more i learn about Our Man Bush the less i care about politics

[blueturk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
That's just it. A man as high as the President SHOULD NOT be interested in the details all the time...only when needed and warranted.

The problem is that this president seems to be making up the details as he goes along. Let's invade Iraq because they have WMD's! Oops ,no WMD's? Well what we're doing here is spreading freedom. I want my tax cuts made permanent...until they clash with the half-assed Social Security "plan" that I just thought up. The list goes on and on. I swear to God, sometimes it seems like Bush is just winging it.

[blueturk]

And the nation felt betrayed by false WMD's, farmers feel betrayed by huge budget cuts, and older citizens feel betrayed by the Social Security "plan", and on and on......

White House raps author for secret tapes
By Knight Ridder | February 21, 2005

NEW YORK -- The White House lashed out yesterday at the Bush family friend who secretly tape-recorded the future president discussing issues such as drug use and gay rights.

ADVERTISEMENT

Even though aides insisted there was little damaging information on the tapes, they made no effort to hide the fact that President Bush felt betrayed by conservative author Doug Wead.

"These were casual conversations with someone whom the president considered, or believed to be, a friend," said White House spokesman Ken Lisaius.

Wead said he made the tapes, from 1998 to 2000, for a book because he believed Bush would become a "pivotal figure in history."

"I had a choice to either write propaganda about the Bushes or write accurately and fairly based on what I knew," Wead told ABC's "Good Morning America."

Wead said his publisher insisted on listening to the tapes to confirm anonymous sources he cited in his new book, "The Raising of a President." The New York Times then got wind of the tapes, Wead said, and it "all became unraveled."

The tapes were made as Bush considered a run for the White House.

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
And that's exactly why Junior is the absolute worst pResident ever. Because his entire Fraudministration is composed of war criminals, liars, and traitors. And an idiot as the supposed leader.

Well, at least Bush has some blacks and hispanics in his cabinet. If Dean would have won the nomination and election, only whites would have held positions, since all blacks work at hotels and are unqualified.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, at least Bush has some blacks and hispanics in his cabinet. If Dean would have won the nomination and election, only whites would have held positions, since all blacks work at hotels and are unqualified. :rolleyes:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, at least Bush has some blacks and hispanics in his cabinet.

I already mentioned the war criminal and the incompetent liar.

Clinton had blacks, Hispanics, and a Lesbian attorney general, and none of them were even criminals. But this isn't about diversity, it's about the insanity of this Fraudministration.

If Dean would have won the nomination and election, only whites would have held positions, since all blacks work at hotels and are unqualified.

Entirely uncalled for and entirely untrue. Here's a link to the first "Dean Dozen" (http://www.democracyforamerica.com/DeanDozen/) . Candidates that were supported by DFA during last years campaign. You'll find it's a very diverse group, and will recognize at least some of the names.

[academic punk]

Back to the tapes: they really didn't reveal anything that isn't pretty much already out there. In fact, you could argue that the tapes prove W.'s integrity (FORD! Wipe that grin off your face!!!).

Everything that he's said there is pretty much consistent with the policies he's implemented and the behavior he's displayed so far.

Sorry, folks, we don't have our Watergate with this one.

(but with jeff gannon...............?)

[Warham]

Did he comb the hotels of America to find these Dozen?

[academic punk]

Warham, those are cheap shots - and false - and you know it. Come on.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
Did he comb the hotels of America to find these Dozen?

Or the KFC's and Church's Chicken's?

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by academic punk
Back to the tapes: they really didn't reveal anything that isn't pretty much already out there. In fact, you could argue that the tapes prove W.'s integrity (FORD! Wipe that grin off your face!!!).




My sentiments exactly...

Thank you, ap...

[FORD]

Originally posted by academic punk


Sorry, folks, we don't have our Watergate with this one.

(but with jeff gannon...............?)

And why do you think these tapes were "leaked" right at the moment that the corporate media was finally starting to pay attention to Gannongayte?

The whoremedia spin is that this guy is someone who Junior "thought was his friend".

No, Junior KNEW Wead was his friend, because he still is. He's an evangelical right wing minister who was involved in Poppy's administration. He hasn't turned against the BCE, he's giving them a convenient distraction.

[LoungeMachine]

Once again......FORD'S RIGHT

[ELVIS]

Once again....FORD concocts a conspiracy...

[Cathedral]

From a spiritual viewpoint, Bush basically used his faith to win voters.

He gave the impression that he would stand up against homsexuals and abortion, at least those two issues made me look his way.

But to see how manipulative his intentions were by giving off the impression he would lean towards conservative christians and take action against the moral dilemmas of our time, then skirt around those issues?

I'm sorry, but anyone who ignores the liberalism going on in or country is not a christian, those who claim Jesus is their Lord and Savior and stands silent while the moral value continues to decline in this nation is just as guilty.

The good news is that God won't put up with it for long, he does not like what is going on at all, and he will put an end to it all very soon.

Get right with your maker, the time grows short.
And i grow tired of phony christians pretending to be filled with the love of Jesus.
They are strangers to him as he never knew them.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Cathedral
From a spiritual viewpoint, Bush basically used his faith to win voters.

From a spiritual viewpoint, Bush is positioning himself as a prophet of some sort whom God wanted to be elected and who also receives personal instructions from God. IF these moments of divine guidance favor his political agenda. Surely there must be some scripture that condemns this behavior.

[Cathedral]

Given the underlying tone of some of his remarks, christians should feel like pawn's because what i got from some of his comments, he had no intentions of making any chnges that "I" personally expected him to at least try to make.

You cannot serve God and man at the same time without consequence.

I am also beginning to wonder if Christians should even support any government beyond paying taxes.
Money belongs to the Federal Reserve Bank (Rome) so it is only fair and fitting that they be paid what belongs to them.

If Bush claims to be a prophet, then he may be one, albeit a false one. And his own words have done more to open my eyes than any liberal attack.
I am beginning to build contempt for any church that allowes themselves to be submersed into the political spectrum beyond acknowledging how real life is fullfilling the scripture.

Preachers need to stick preaching the Word and leave the liers to their own vices.

[Cathedral]

What about Judge Roy Moore?
In order to get his job back he had to tell the court that he would give up praising God, which he refused to do.
Now there is a man who was persecuted by his peers for his biblical values and in the end, the whole thing had absolutely nothing to do with any monument, it was about him denying God as long as he was in the public service.

If you compare Bush to that man, which you really shouldn't, but just for the sake of argument lets do, Moore is a far more obedient christian than the so called "chosen one" sitting in Washington.

Jesus led by example, man should do no less.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
see how manipulative his intentions were by giving off the impression he would lean towards conservative christians and take action against the moral dilemmas of our time, then skirt around those issues?

too bad he did that with important stuff too

[ELVIS]

I guess teaching school children that homosexuality is just another lifestyle to be accepted is of no importance, eh ODS ??

[Cathedral]

It was all calculated, and I am responsible for one vote that he probably shouldn't have gotten.
Actually, two, I voted for him in 2000 as well.

Oh how the blind stumble in the dark, eh?

[ELVIS]

BTW Cat, have you heard the actual tapes ??

Search for it...

I don't think all of it is George Bush, some of it is, but not all...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I guess teaching school children that homosexuality is just another lifestyle to be accepted is of no importance, eh ODS ??

Elvis, I have given this all a great deal of thought and prayer. and the bottom line is that Bush never had any intentions of taking on the gays, he said he wouldn't "kick them", those were his own words.

So for us all to argue amongst ourselves about this issue will only take the focus off of his lack of intention to take any action whatsoever in the first place.

So when the facts are presented, he basically lied.

But Liberals aren't the enemy here, it's the influence and manipulation of Satan that began in the Garden of Eden from the beginning.
Liberalism is the tool of the Devil and all of this was foretold in the scripture. It will surely come to pass.

"It is written"

[ELVIS]

Haha...

I agree...

I'm still not certain that homosexuality is a presidential issue, although he should weigh in one way or the other...

As a Christian it is an issue, though I don't claim to be a witness of Bush's faith...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I guess teaching school children that homosexuality is just another lifestyle to be accepted is of no importance, eh ODS ??

There are hundreds of issues that are more important than restricting people's rights in a free society. To treat them differently under the law is a disgrace to the Constitution; no different than the way blacks were treated 100 years ago.

All it is is fear mongering and bullshit. You should rightly be ashamed of yourself for buying into it.

That said, I do not condone homosexuality, and when I meet them, they're usually pretty fucked up in the head so it's best to just avoid them.

EDIT: I do condone bi-sexual women when they're decent looking.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
There are hundreds of issues that are more important than restricting people's rights in a free society.

Not when those "rights" threaten the fabric of that society...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
BTW Cat, have you heard the actual tapes ??

Search for it...

I don't think all of it is George Bush, some of it is, but not all...

Yeah i have because when this news broke it troubled me deeply.
I do question the authenticity of some of the content, but on the parts that made me shutter, it was clearly Bush doing the talking.

The christian was disenfranchised and there is no two ways about it.
Had his actions in the first 4 years gone against those statements you could have given him the benefit of the doubt, but we as believers don't have that luxery in this instance.

Anything less than the truth is a lie, and not of God.

So this whole Christian movement into politics is not one the holy men should be persuing.
The church should be focused on salvation, not politics.

And we should never have faith in man, it is that simple.
The only way the christian will get what they want is if Christ returns and puts an end to this flesh age.
Then there will be no discussion, every eye will see him in the sky and every knee shall bow before him.

[ELVIS]

I hear ya...


:elvis:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral


Liberalism is the tool of the Devil

The Devil wants to make sure the sick and the elderly, as well as the les fortunate are cared for?

The Devil wants to make sure children have hot meals, and a safe place to sleep?

The Devil wants to avoid war?

The Devil wants to keep handguns away from criminals?

The Devil wants to protect free speech?


Go figure:rolleyes:


Isnt it also "written" that we will be judged by how we treat the less fortunate?

Something's not adding up here my friend.....

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
BTW Cat, have you heard the actual tapes ??

Search for it...

I don't think all of it is George Bush, some of it is, but not all...

Actually I heard one clip being played on the ABC News last night that I thought sounded more like Jeb. Maybe Wead interviewed both of the Bush Hellspawn, (since there was initially some speculation as to which one the BCE would run) and then mixed up the tapes?

[FORD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
The Devil wants to make sure the sick and the elderly, as well as the les fortunate are cared for?

The Devil wants to make sure children have hot meals, and a safe place to sleep?

The Devil wants to avoid war?

The Devil wants to keep handguns away from criminals?

The Devil wants to protect free speech?




You mean you forgot that part where Satan went up on the Mount and gave that great speech?

Oh wait, that wasn't Satan.......:confused:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Not when those "rights" threaten the fabric of that society...

Is there any proof of that at all? How do you quantify the integrity of the fabric of society? When you think about it logically, you realize that you are just spouting a bunch of nonsense.


I'll tell you what's really fucking up society. The REAL PORNOGRAPHY of death and destruction beamed every day into our homes from cable news networks. It's not normal and not ok to be blowing shit up and chopping people's heads off.


And it's NOT ok for some god-damned 3rd grader to dictate to me what I can watch on TV. The very thought is appalling. But it's cool with you, right?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Haha...

I agree...

I'm still not certain that homosexuality is a presidential issue, although he should weigh in one way or the other...

As a Christian it is an issue, though I don't claim to be a witness of Bush's faith...

Sure it is a presidential issue because it is a plague on our society and a decline in our standing with God.
The lie is that we think we can seperate the issue, and the lie was perpetrated by Satan.
The fact is, the game is over, it ended 2000 years ago when Jesus gave up his life for all of us.
He knew what was to come and it came for sure.
And without the the cross we would all have nothing to look forward to after this life.

It's part of a perfect paln, and it is unfolding exactly as it was written.

You know this is true, and for us to think that anything will change and humanity will suddenly praise God?
It ain't happening.
Another problem is the influence the evengelists we see all over the tube are having on people.
They are preaching flase doctrines that they have no proven for themselves but continue to spread as tradition, and the hebrew definition of tradition is "nothing useful".

I Thess 5:21 "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good"

This short line says soooooooooooo much.
Because if we don't prove what we believe to ourselves we will be decieved by the Antichrist when he comes.
That scares me for my family that believes God returns before the Antichrist, because that is not documented in any of my study bibles unless you take the word out of context and twist it to fit, but you can make it fit, if you try.

The only thing that is of truth today is that "It is finished", Jesus was talking about today, and he was right, it was finished when he went to the cross.
We are just going through the motions, and i won't argue the point with anyone. believe what you choose, it is your choice alone.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
You mean you forgot that part where Satan went up on the Mount and gave that great speech?

Oh wait, that wasn't Satan.......:confused:

Maybe it was my cushy middle class Presbyterian upbringing but it just seems like even RELIGION is getting uglier and more violent.....

The whole world is being pulled by extrememists, whether it be political, religious, corporate, social, what have you.......

Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men........whatthefuck ever happened to THAT?:confused:

I don't remember being taught that it was all a "tool of the Devil"

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
The Devil wants to make sure the sick and the elderly, as well as the les fortunate are cared for?

The Devil wants to make sure children have hot meals, and a safe place to sleep?

The Devil wants to avoid war?

The Devil wants to keep handguns away from criminals?

The Devil wants to protect free speech?


Go figure:rolleyes:


Isnt it also "written" that we will be judged by how we treat the less fortunate?

Something's not adding up here my friend.....

I'm not talking about todays liberal politicians, but you do bring up a good point.
All of those things you mentioned sound great, but they aren't of God.
Sure, there is a great and wonderful plan for all of us.
The Government (and i'm no longer differentiating between Repucb and Dem) wants to take care of us all from birth to the grave. health care for everyone, etc.
But what is missing is the presence of God in that plan, so it won't work.
Homeland Security without God's will, won't work.
we removed God from the public schools and now they aren't working.

You see a trend here?
Schools are no longer a place to educate our children, it is a social club that teaches them that there is no God and we are alone in the cosmos...WRONG ANSWER.

If we move freely into trusting the world system, when the Antichrist comes he will have little trouble placing his mark upon our heads much in the same fashion he decieved Eve in the Garden.
he knows our weaknesses, and plays upon them with a skill that is to be respected and admired.
Just not accepted or believed.

The only one who can give you what you truly need is God, and he promised it to all of us, but you have to seek it through his son, Jesus Christ and it ain't gonna happen in this flesh age.

We are currently in another great flood, the flood of lies, but the time is here, and it is finished.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Maybe it was my cushy middle class Presbyterian upbringing but it just seems like even RELIGION is getting uglier and more violent.....

The whole world is being pulled by extrememists, whether it be political, religious, corporate, social, what have you.......

Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men........whatthefuck ever happened to THAT?:confused:

I don't remember being taught that it was all a "tool of the Devil"

Read the book of Genesis again. the liberalism i mentioned has nothing to do with politics.
it was the liberal way the serpeant twisted what God said to Eve about the tree of life and knowledge.
Even Eve didn't quote God exactly and in doing so she was decieved into thinking that she was like God and therefore went against his commandment not to eat of , or even touch it, Or she would surely die.
Eve quoted God as saying "Lest Ye Die", big difference, and so went out the window the idea of Peace on Earth, Good Will Towards Men.

Extremist Christians are not christians at all if they are condemning man instead of reaching out to him.

[Wayne L.]

There is no controversy anywhere listening to those secretly taped conversations President Bush had with his former friend Doug Wead except in the warped minds of far left liberal wackos.

[ODShowtime]

you need to go back to "scholl"

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Wayne L.
There is no controversy anywhere listening to those secretly taped conversations President Bush had with his former friend Doug Wead except in the warped minds of far left liberal wackos.

Not true, I was convinced that we finally got a President that would challenge core issues which i oppose only to find out that he had no intentions of confronting them two years before taking the office.

He talked a good show, but it's only so convenient that he has the opposition to use as an excuse.

In the first 4 years he did nothing but go through the motions to, as we say in entertainment, put on a good show.

Bush is in the process of selling out his core support because we expect action on his "mandate", just not the action he is set to take.

He lied, there is only one way to cut that loaf of bread.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Not true, I was convinced that we finally got a President that would challenge core issues which i oppose only to find out that he had no intentions of confronting them two years before taking the office.

He talked a good show, but it's only so convenient that he has the opposition to use as an excuse.

In the first 4 years he did nothing but go through the motions to, as we say in entertainment, put on a good show.

Bush is in the process of selling out his core support because we expect action on his "mandate", just not the action he is set to take.

He lied, there is only one way to cut that loaf of bread.

I hate to say it Cat, but I'm glad he's selling out those conservative Christians!

He lied ya'll!

[Cathedral]

Yeah, and i'm not popular with my fellow conservatives at this point either.
I want the truth and it is all i shall seek from here on out.

Too many times have i put faith in people only to be slapped down for having any expectations from them to keep their word.

So in short, I will never place my support behind anyone that does not fully meet my standards.
That means i will abstain from voting until someone actually deserves it and has earned my support.

That said, I have an appointment to get to.............Later!

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Yeah, and i'm not popular with my fellow conservatives at this point either.
I want the truth and it is all i shall seek from here on out.

Too many times have i put faith in people only to be slapped down for having any expectations from them to keep their word.

So in short, I will never place my support behind anyone that does not fully meet my standards.
That means i will abstain from voting until someone actually deserves it and has earned my support.

That said, I have an appointment to get to.............Later!

Cat - even though you feel like your candidate "betrayed" you, you should continue to vote during all elections. It's that important. You may not get the EXACT candidate you want, but I guarantee you that they are not running the exact campaign they want either - they have to make their message large and broad enough so it appeals to as many people as possible.

I did not vote for Bush, and I probably never will support the neocon agenda, but I do want everyone to have their voice heard.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Once again....FORD concocts a conspiracy...

http://www.dacre.org/flash/www/us102232.jpg

If it were Clinton, Elvis, you'd all over this like Matt Drudge on Chris Gannon!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I guess teaching school children that homosexuality is just another lifestyle to be accepted is of no importance, eh ODS ??

No, but teaching them not to beat the shit out of kids who are gay, or a straight kid that has two mommies IS!

[academic punk]

Actually, I think FORD is wrong on this one.

a) Bush has enough headline news with his trip to Europe.

b) the administration is saying that they're and Bush is pissed with Wead. Rightfully so.

c) it was the NY Times that Wead played these tapes for. If you want a smokescreen that turns pro-Bush, you take it to the NY Post.

d) the guy has a book coming out and is trying to get publicity. period.

I think this guy is a piece of shit. How would you feel if you were secretly taped by someone you considered a friend? (does make you wonder how effective Bush really is at this homeland security thing, though)

Besides, I don't think this stroy will do anything to divert attention from Jeff Gannon. This'll unfold yet. That's the magic of bloggers: they're persistent fuckers!

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No, but teaching them not to beat the shit out of kids who are gay, or a straight kid that has two mommies IS!


Fine. I'll say it.

Homesexuality is a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE life-style, and one that include a realtionship with God.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No, but teaching them not to beat the shit out of kids who are gay, or a straight kid that has two mommies IS!

Excellent point.

The hatred that Elvis and his ilk are breeding will lead to violence. Very Christ-like there ;)

[Warham]

Oh stop with this 'Elvis is breeding hatred' shit. Good fucking grief.

Elvis has never condoned gay kids getting beaten with 2 x 4's by the playground bully.

Give it up already.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Oh stop with this 'Elvis is breeding hatred' shit. Good fucking grief.

Elvis has never condoned gay kids getting beaten with 2 x 4's by the playground bully.

Give it up already.

wake up dude (why am I always telling you that?)

again, the people who are neo-conservative fail to grasp the realities of the world around them.

[Warham]

We can grasp the world just fine. I see the world quite clearly, and I'm one of those 'neo-cons' you keep referring to.

We don't concoct conspiracy theories every five minutes when something we don't agree with happens.

[Angel]

Originally posted by academic punk
Fine. I'll say it.

Homesexuality is a PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE life-style, and one that include a realtionship with God.

THANK YOU! It's about fucking time someone said it! :D

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
We can grasp the world just fine. I see the world quite clearly, and I'm one of those 'neo-cons' you keep referring to.

We don't concoct conspiracy theories every five minutes when something we don't agree with happens.

There's no conspiracy theory. When you constantly talk about how a certain group of people are "bad" children overhear this.

Children also love to pick on other children. Now they have a great excuse for picking on certain other children. And you know good and well many dads won't chastise their kids for preaching hate about homos.

That said, somone's gettin' their ass beat at 3 o'clock daily in most schools around the world one way or another.

[Warham]

Most Christians don't believe the gay lifestyle is acceptable. They teach their children this when they become old enough to understand. If they were good parents, they will tell their children that although being gay is wrong, they should practice tolerance for other's lifestyles.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Most Christians don't believe the gay lifestyle is acceptable. They teach their children this when they become old enough to understand. If they were good parents, they will tell their children that although being gay is wrong, they should practice tolerance for other's lifestyles.

"acceptable"

On whose fucking authority does anyone get to judge anyone else's lifestyle in this country?

The same nitwits that tell me what I can and cannot watch on my TV?

Your people are all on a fucking major power trip. Too bad gw's selling them all out! :D

[Warham]

OD, Christians read the Bible. The Bible doesn't condone the gay lifestyle. That's how we get around to believing it to be unacceptable. Unacceptable to God.

Hey, I'm not telling you who to sleep with. If you want to fuck another man, go ahead. I'm just telling you I don't accept it as a good thing.

Powertrip? I'm hardly a person who's on a powertrip. Ask my old lady.

I'm just telling you what Christians believe, OD. No reason to have a fit about it. Like I said, if you or anyone else wants to engage in the gay lifestyle, go ahead. You don't need God's permission.

[Warham]

My authority is Jesus Christ, by the way. He might not be yours, but he's mine.

George Bush isn't selling me out. I voted for him despite what he could or couldn't do for faith issues. The bigger picture is what I'm about. As long as he puts conservative Supreme Court justices in, and nothing else, I'm happy.

[Wayne L.]

Don't bother with this wasted mind so called cutting me down because he's a loser without a thought & without a life. BTW, what do you think about those tapes of President Bush ODShowtime?

[Cathedral]

Why is all of this so predominant in our world today?
Because the time grows short and the day of reckoning is upon us.

All of this has been foretold in the bible, and as much as we all would like to place the blame for it all on a human face, that is a futile attempt at denying the truth.

We just have to be, as individuals, wise in who we stand behind.
We have to seek the only path for eternal life and that is the path of Jesus Christ.
I don't fear any of this though because what is on the other side of these great battles, trials and tribulations is a neverending peace in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The true believer is waiting patiently for this to come, they welcome it, and i hope to reach a point where i welcome it also, before the time is at hand.
It is spiritual suicide for any believer to "accept" that which is immoral as an alternative lifestyle, because there isn't an alternative lifesdtyle, all there is is Jesus Christ and without him you will be destroyed along with Satan.
It isn't anymore complicated than that.

It's Final Jeopardy for mankind.
And your soul is what is wagered, are you sure about your answer?

If not, pick up the bible and pray that God may give you the understanding you need to be sure.
Satan is sure of one thing, the non-believer belongs to him and no amount of spin will save your soul for betting it all that Jesus will not return, and return soon.

Look around, Everything you heard in church as a child is coming to pass. only a fool turns a blind eye to it all.

God loves all of his children, the believer and non-believer alike. He doesn't want to see any harm come to any of his children.
But he gave each and every one of us a choice to make.

Choose Wisely, and May God Bless Us All!

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
I'm just telling you what Christians believe, OD. No reason to have a fit about it. Like I said, if you or anyone else wants to engage in the gay lifestyle, go ahead. You don't need God's permission.

I'm just telling you that as a true Christain, you should know you cannot judge anyone. Humans have no business judging other humans about their lifestyles as long as they don't hurt others.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Wayne L.
Don't bother with this wasted mind so called cutting me down because he's a loser without a thought & without a life. BTW, what do you think about those tapes of President Bush ODShowtime?

I'm disappointed myself. They don't say anything new. It just confirms that he planned to pander to the religious right. No surprise there, it's just funny to see it come out in print.

I'm not outraged or happy or anything. It's not a big deal to me. The Jeff Gannon thing is way more important and hence received much less coverage.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I'm just telling you that as a true Christain, you should know you cannot judge anyone. Humans have no business judging other humans about their lifestyles as long as they don't hurt others.

Excellent Post!

Let me add that if anyone calling themselves Christians runs around laying judgement on people, they had better be perfect and without sin, or judgement will surely come your way with a higher penalty.

"Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged"

That job belongs to God, and he doesn't like his toes stepped on.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
"Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged"


Exactly. ;) I get PISSED when people judge me. My boss pulled that shit and you can ask her how that turned out.

[Warham]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I'm just telling you that as a true Christain, you should know you cannot judge anyone. Humans have no business judging other humans about their lifestyles as long as they don't hurt others.

Did I say I judged them, OD. That's for Jesus to decide if they go onto the next life. Not me.

So, by your reckoning, if I have a closs family member who's on crack cocaine and drinks hard liquor every night, even though he's not hurting everybody else, I shouldn't say it's wrong? I mean, I have no business as a human to tell somebody they are doing something wrong, right?

[Cathedral]

My own Mother is guilty of this, she judges everything i do. It is only that now that i am emersed in the word of God, she tries to correct me with her own ideas that aren't supported by scripture.

All we can do is pray for them, and tell them that when they begin judging.

The biggest lie of Christianity is the one most Christians tell themselves, that they are better than you and must do everything possible to bring you in.
What they forget is that they are to be humbled before the Lord and give ALL glory to him.
I fear that they are trying to reach a quota in heaven that doesn't exist, and this idea serves only to wreck one's salvation.

God gave us all a choice, he didn't beat us over the head with scripture and no man has a right to empower themselves to do the same thing.
That is just another form of spiritual suicide.

Jesus preached to those that listened and those that did not, but he never forced his teachings on anyone...Free Will, a beautiful thing, but also a dangerous thing.

We decide for ourselves.

[Warham]

Is It Right to Judge?
-by Franklin C. Huling, MA
©Fundamental Evangelistic Association

THIS QUESTION- "IS IT RIGHT TO JUDGE?" is one that puzzles many sincere Christians. A careful and open minded study of the Bible makes it clear that concerning certain vital matters, it is not only right but a positive duty to judge. Many do not know that the Scripture commands us to judge. The Lord Jesus Christ commanded, "Judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24). He told a man, "Thou hast rightly judged" (Luke 7:43). To others, our Lord asked, "Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?" (Luke 12:57).

The Apostle Paul wrote, "I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say" (1 Corinthians 10:15). Again, Paul declared, "He that is spiritual judgeth all things" (1 Corinthians 2:15). It is our positive duty to judge.

False Teachers and False Teaching
"Beware of false prophets!" (Matthew 7:15) is the warning and command of our Lord. But how could we "beware" and how could we know they are "false prophets" if we did not judge? And what is the God given standard by which we are to judge? " To the Law and to the Testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20). "Ye shall know them by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16), Christ said. And in judging the "fruits," we must judge by God's Word, not by what appeals to human reasoning. Many things seem good to human judgment which are false to the Word of God.

The Apostle Paul admonished believers, "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:17-18). This apostolic command could not be obeyed were it not right to judge. God wants us to know His Word and then test all teachers and teaching by it. Notice also that it is the false teachers who make the "divisions," and not those who protest against their false teaching. And these deceivers are not serving Christ, as they profess, "but their own belly," or their own "bread and butter," as we would put it. We are to "mark them and avoid them."

"Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians 6:17, read verses 14-18). and "From such turn away." (2 Timothy 3:5). "Withdraw yourselves" (2 Thessalonians 3:6). "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them " (Ephesians 5:1 1). "Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good" (Romans 12:9). "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21). It would be impossible to obey these injunctions of God's Word unless it were right to judge! And remember, nothing is "good" in God's sight that is not true to His Word.

The Apostle John wrote, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try [test, judge] the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world " ( 1 John 4:1 ) . Again he wrote, "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.... If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 7,10-11). This Scripture commands us to judge between those who do, and those who do not bring the true doctrine of Christ.

Whenever a child of God contributes to a denominational budget that supports Modernist (liberal, compromising) missionaries or teachers, he is guilty before God, according to this Scripture, of bidding them, "God speed " in the most effective way possible. And he thereby becomes a "partaker" with them of their "evil deeds" of spreading soul damning poison. How terrible, but how true! Arouse yourself, child of God. If you are guilty, ask God to forgive you and help you never again to be guilty of the blood of souls for whom Christ died. When we are willing to suffer for Christ, we can readily see the truth of God's Word on this tremendously important matter. "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him" (2 Timothy 2:12) .

Misunderstood and Misused Scripture
One of the best known and most misunderstood and misapplied Scriptures is "Judge not" (Matthew 7:1). Let us examine the entire passage:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye" (Matthew 7:1-5).

Read this again carefully. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite!-not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's Word. And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgment, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment. In fact, the last statement of this Scripture commands sincere judgment-"Then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." If we take a verse or a part of a verse out of its setting, we can make the Word of God appear to teach the very opposite of what it really does teach. And those who do this cannot escape the judgment of God for twisting His Word (2 Peter 3:16). Let this be a warning to us never again to take a text of Scripture out of its context.

Many who piously quote, "Judge not," out of its context, in order to defend that which is false to God's Word, do not see their own inconsistency in thus judging those who would obey God's Word about judging that which is untrue to the Bible. It is tragic that so much that is anti-Scriptural has undeservedly found shelter behind a misuse of the Scripture just quoted. The reason the professed church of Christ is today honeycombed and paralyzed by satanic Modernism is because Christians have not obeyed the commands of God's Word to judge and put away and separate from false teachers and false teaching when they first appeared in their midst. Physical health is maintained by separation from disease germs. Spiritual health is maintained by separation from germs of false doctrine. The greatest peril of our day is not too much judging, but too little judging of spiritual falsehood.

God wants His children to be like the noble Bereans who "searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so"(Acts 17:11).

Romans 2:1-3 is also addressed to the religious hypocrite who condemned himself because he was guilty of the same things for which he condemned others. James 4:11-12 refers to an evil spirit of backbiting and fault finding, not to judging whether teachers or teachings agree or disagree with God's Word. The Bible never contradicts itself. To understand one portion of Scripture we must view it in the light of all Scripture. "No prophecy of the Scripture is of any private [isolated] interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20). "Comparing spiritual things [words] with spiritual" (1 Corinthians 2:13).

The "Wheat and Tares" parable of Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43, is much misunderstood. First of all, our Lord is talking about the world, not His Church-"the field is the world." He goes on to say that "the good seed are the children of the Kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one" (Matthew 13:38) . They are the two groups in the world; children of God-those who have received Christ (John 1:12), and the children of the devil-those who reject Christ (John 8:44). When any of the "children of the wicked one" get into the professed church of Christ, as they have always done, a definite procedure for God's children is set forth in His Word. First, it is their duty to tell them that they have "neither part nor lot" in Christ (see Acts 8:21-23 and context).

If the children of the devil do not leave voluntarily, as is generally the case, God's children are commanded to "purge out" (1 Corinthians 5:7) these unbelievers. But God's people have disobeyed His Word about this, and so unbelievers [and disobedient brethren- 2 Thessalonians 3:6,14-15] have gotten into control, as is now the case in most denominations. Therefore, those who purpose to be true to Christ and His Word are commanded to "come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord" (2 Corinthians 6:17), regardless of property or any other considerations. When we obey God's Word, we can trust Him to take care of all the consequences of our obedience.

Other Matters to be Judged
The immoral conduct of professed believers in Christ is to be judged. 1 Corinthians, Chapter 5, tells a sad story and closes with the Apostolic injunction, "Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person" (1 Corinthians 5:13).

Disputes between Christians concerning "things that pertain to this life," (1 Corinthians 6:3) should be judged by a tribunal of fellow Christians instead of going before unbelievers in the civil courts. The whole sixth chapter of 1 Corinthians makes clear God's plan for His people in this regard. And some startling truths are here revealed: First, "The saints shall judge the world." Second, "We shall judge angels" (1 Corinthians 6:2-3). Beloved, are we letting God prepare us for this high place?

We ought to judge ourselves. "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Corinthians 13:5). "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened [child trained] of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Corinthians 11:31-32). What a change and what a blessing it would be if we would judge our own faults as uncharitably as we do the faults of others-and if we would judge the failings of others as charitably as we do our own! And Christians could save themselves much chastening of the Lord if they would judge and confess and cease their disobedience to God. And, oh, how much dishonor and lack of fruit would our blessed Lord be spared!

Limitations of Human Judgment
Not scruples or conscience concerning matters of which the Bible does not directly speak. God forbids our judging our brethren concerning the eating of certain kinds of food, keeping of days, etc. Romans, Chapter 14, 1 Corinthians 10:23-33, and Colossians 2:16-17 cover this subject.

Not motives. See 1 Corinthians 4:1-5. Only God can see into the heart and know the motives that underlie actions.

Not as to whom are saved. "The Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Timothy 2:19). We cannot look into anyone's heart and say whether or not they have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, if they profess that they have. But we had better test ourselves according to 2 Corinthians 5:17: "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." If this change has not taken place, our profession is vain.

Two Elements in Judgment
The New Testament Greek word that is most often translated "judge" or "judgment" is "krino." On the one hand, it means to distinguish, to decide, to determine, to conclude, to try, to think and to call in question. That is what God wants His children to do as to whether preachers, teachers and their teachings are true or false to His Word. The Apostle Paul writes: "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; that ye may approve things that are excellent" (Philippians 1:9-10). A wrong idea of love and lack of knowledge and judgment causes God's people often to approve things that are anything but excellent in God's sight. The epistle to the Hebrews tells us that mature believers, that is, those who are of "full age, " are ". .. those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil " (see Hebrews 5:11-14).

On the other hand, the Greek word "krino"-judge or judgment-means to condemn, to sentence and to punish. This is God's prerogative for He has said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, saith the Lord" (Romans 12:19).

Guard Against a Wrong Attitude
Christians should guard against the tendency of the flesh to assume a critical and censorious attitude toward those who do not share our opinions about other matters than those which have to do with Bible doctrine and moral conduct. Rather than "pick to pieces" our brethren in Christ, it is our privilege and duty to do everything we can to encourage their spiritual edification. We ought to love and pray for one another and consider ourselves lest we be tempted. Galatians 6:1.

A Final Word
If you are saved, my reader, let us not forget that "We must all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:10). It will be well with those who are studying God's Word, walking in the light of it, living for Christ and the salvation of souls. It will go ill with those who have accepted Christ but who are living for the things of this world. If you are a mere professor of Christ, or profess nothing, my friend, may I lovingly remind you "That judgment must begin at the House of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the Gospel?" (1 Peter 4:17).

Delay not another moment to ask God for Christ's sake to forgive your sins. Surrender your heart and will to the loving Saviour who died for you and rose again. Make Him the Lord of your life. Happy and blessed will you be, now and forever.

-by Franklin C. Huling, MA

"For there is some danger of falling into a soft and effeminate Christianity, under the plea of a lofty and ethereal theology. Christianity was born for endurance; not an exotic, but a hardy plant, braced by the keen wind; not languid, nor childish, nor cowardly. If walks with strong step and erect frame; it is kindly, but firm; it is gentle, but honest; it is calm, but not facile; obliging, but not imbecile; decided, but not churlish. It does not fear to speak the stern word of condemnation against error, nor to raise its voice against surrounding evils, under the pretext it is not of this world; it does not shrink from giving honest reproof, lest it come under the charge of displaying an unchristian spirit. It calls sin sin, on whomsoever it is found, and would rather risk the accusation of being actuated by a bad spirit than not discharge an explicit duty. Let us not. misjudge strong words used in honest controversy. Out of the heat a viper may come forth but we shake it off and feel no harm. The religion of both Old and New Testaments is marked by fervent outspoken testimonies against evil. To speak smooth things in such a case may be sentimentalism, but it is not Christianity. It is a betrayal of the cause of truth and righteousness. If anyone should be frank, manly, honest, cheerful (I do not say blunt or rude, for a Christian must be courteous and polite); it is he who has tasted that the Lord is gracious, and is looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God I know that charity covereth a multitude of sins; but it does not call evil good, because a good man has done it; it does not excuse inconsistencies, because the inconsistent brother has a high name and a fervent spirit; crookedness and worldliness are still crookedness and worldliness, though exhibited in one who seems to have reached no common height of attainment."

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Excellent Post!

Let me add that if anyone calling themselves Christians runs around laying judgement on people, they had better be perfect and without sin, or judgement will surely come your way with a higher penalty.

"Judge Not, Lest Ye Be Judged"

That job belongs to God, and he doesn't like his toes stepped on.


God has toes?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Did I say I judged them, OD. That's for Jesus to decide if they go onto the next life. Not me.

So, by your reckoning, if I have a closs family member who's on crack cocaine and drinks hard liquor every night, even though he's not hurting everybody else, I shouldn't say it's wrong? I mean, I have no business as a human to tell somebody they are doing something wrong, right?

There's nothing inherently wrong with drinking hard liquor and smoking crack every night.

Does that mean you want to limit the family member's rights under the law, rights that having nothing to do with his drug use?

[Warham]

OK, good, then you would let your family member continue.

I'd try to step in and help.

There's where the difference is.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Warham
Did I say I judged them, OD. That's for Jesus to decide if they go onto the next life. Not me.

So, by your reckoning, if I have a closs family member who's on crack cocaine and drinks hard liquor every night, even though he's not hurting everybody else, I shouldn't say it's wrong? I mean, I have no business as a human to tell somebody they are doing something wrong, right?

We are to pray for them, Warham.
We as Christians have to spread the good news, but must avoid getting angry or judgemental if they refuse to take the hand up.

If they reach for God, He will accept them, that is all they need to understand.
Show them the way, just don't try and push them along or it will backfire.

Another thing, arguing over this stuff amongst us is not helping any of us. the word is clear and everyone has access to the truth.

Prayer Changes Things!

[Warham]

Yep, that's why I'm stepping out. Like I said before, it's not going to change anybody here.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by academic punk
God has toes?

Figure of speech, meaning he is a jealous God.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
OK, good, then you would let your family member continue.

I'd try to step in and help.

There's where the difference is.

So you equate drug and alcohol abuse with homosexuality? Nice judgement there.

I truly am in need of help then.

I think it's funny that you view yourself as compassionate and willing to step in to help when you're a confessed neo-conservative. You don't want to give up another dime to help the less fortunate, but you're willing to judge people. That's a bad combo in my book.

[Warham]

No, I didn't compare. I was making it a comparison as far as making a fair judgement if you think somebody is doing something wrong. That's all.

I don't think folks should do alot of drugs or alcohol, and I don't think they should be gay either. Just my opinion. It doesn't affect your life or anyone elses.

End of story.

How do you know what I've done for charity? You have no fucking clue what I've done. And with that, you've just become judgemental yourself. Nice. You like to attack Christians for their attitudes, but then you go and make a generalization like that.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Figure of speech, meaning he is a jealous God.


God has something in common with my kickboxing ex-girlfriend?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by academic punk
God has something in common with my kickboxing ex-girlfriend?

Yeah, He hates you and thinks you're lousy in bed too:D

[academic punk]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Yeah, He hates you and thinks you're lousy in bed too:D


Owww!

That hurt almost as much as the time she sucker-punched me for staring at some girls ass on the street!

(it was a GREAT ass)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
How do you know what I've done for charity? You have no fucking clue what I've done.

Correction: I don't care what you've done. I'm not judgemental like you :bananna:

[Warham]

I've never judged you either. I just said you were a pessimistic fuck, that's all. :D

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
There's nothing inherently wrong with drinking hard liquor and smoking crack every night.



Wow...:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Warham
Is It Right to Judge?
-by Franklin C. Huling, MA
©Fundamental Evangelistic Association

THIS QUESTION- "IS IT RIGHT TO JUDGE?"

100% excellent!

Nice find, Warham...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Is It Right to Judge?

Misunderstood and Misused Scripture
One of the best known and most misunderstood and misapplied Scriptures is "Judge not" (Matthew 7:1).

Read this again carefully. Notice that it is addressed to a hypocrite!-not to those who sincerely want to discern whether a teacher or teaching is true or false to God's Word. And instead of being a prohibition against honest judgment, it is a solemn warning against hypocritical judgment.

Exactly. And not one of these "Christian" neo-cons I'm railing at (not really you guys, the politicians and pundits) has a fucking leg to stand on when judging me or some fags or whoever.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Wow...:rolleyes:

Do you know that the word "inherently" means?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Do you know that the word "inherently" means?

That depends

Is it in Matthew or Luke?:D

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
That depends

Is it in Matthew or Luke?:D

Yes, because a book that's been repeatedly translated in the hands of tyrants for 2000 years should be your source for all wisdom, knowledge, and law. :rolleyes:

[Warham]

Bullshit, OD.

I want proof. Not your 'wisdom' on the matter.

You tell me how many times it's been translated, even though we have New Testament copies going back to about 125 AD. And the one in the King James Bible doesn't vary from these ancient copies, except for perhaps a period being out of place due to copyist error.

It doesn't change the bottom line of the story though.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Do you know that the word "inherently" means?

THE NATURE OF MAN (http://www.contendingforthefaith.com/responses/bible-answer-man/nature.html)

The body of man was created pure and good (Gen. 1:31); there was nothing inherently evil or sinful about it. But according to the Bible, the body is different from the flesh, which in the Scriptures has at least three meanings: the flesh of our physical body (John 6:55); the fallen, corrupted body contaminated by sin (Rom. 7:18); and the fallen man (Rom. 3:20). God did not create fallen flesh; He created a body of flesh, blood, and bones. When man fell, sin, the evil nature of Satan, came into man’s body, transmuting it into the flesh. This flesh is called “the flesh of sin” (Rom. 8:3, Gk. ), and the fallen body is called “the body of sin” (Rom. 6:6) and “the body of this death” (Rom. 7:24). Because the God-created body has been corrupted and ruined by sin and transmuted into the flesh, all kinds of lusts are now in the members of our body (Gal. 5:24; Col. 3:5).

First John 3:10 speaks of “the children of the devil.” To be a child of the devil means to be begotten of the devil and hence to have the devil’s life and nature. A child of the devil has his source in the devil. Cain was of the evil one, the devil, Satan; so is everyone who commits sin (1 John 3:12, 8). In John 8:44 the Lord Jesus said, “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.” The fact that the devil is the father of fallen man must mean that in some way fallen man has been begotten of the devil. Both John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus called the religious ones a “generation of vipers” (Matt. 3:7; 23:33), that is, the offspring of vipers. All these verses indicate that fallen men are children of Satan, possessing Satan’s life and nature.

Now we must ask this question: In what part of their being are fallen people begotten the children of the devil with the satanic life and nature? The answer is found in the book of Romans. Romans 7:5 says that “the motions of sins…work in our members,” referring, of course, to the members of our physical body. Verse 23 says, “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.” In verse 18 Paul declared that in his flesh was “no good thing,” and in verse 20 he said that sin dwelt in him. When we examine the verbs used by Paul to portray the action of sin, we see that the sin which is in us behaves exactly like a person. This sin enters (5:12), reigns (6:12), lords it over us (6:14), revives (7:9), takes occasion, deceives, kills (7:11), dwells in us (7:17), and does things in us (7:20). All these are the activities of a person. Hence, we may infer that the sin that dwells in us is the personification of Satan and that it is in the flesh, the corrupted body, that fallen men are begotten of the devil. Sin is the evil nature of Satan. We may even say that sin is Satan. Because sin dwells in our body and because sin is the nature of Satan, it is not too much to say that Satan as sin dwells in our fallen body. This does not mean that Satan has no objective existence apart from man’s flesh. It simply means that the sin dwelling in our fallen bodies is the personification of Satan himself and that, in this sense, Satan dwells in our flesh.

Two further points! First, the above statements regarding the presence of Satan in the flesh have absolutely nothing to do with gnosticism. According to gnosticism, matter is inherently evil. For the gnostic, man’s physical body, being material, is intrinsically evil; and salvation consists in the emancipation of the spirit from the body. Taking our stand with the Scriptures, we have always condemned the teachings of gnosticism. Man’s physical body is not inherently evil, but it has been defiled through the sin that dwells in it.

Second, the fact that a believer’s body is the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19) does not mean that sin as the personification of Satan and the lusts of the flesh are no longer in our flesh. In the same book where Paul says that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, he also speaks of fornication being among the members of the church (1 Cor. 5:1, 9-11). Surely this indicates that the element of sin, the personification of Satan, is still in the flesh of the believers. The body which is the temple of the Holy Spirit is the created body which has been recovered. But in this body there are still the lusts, which have their origin in the devil. For this reason, Paul admonished the churches in Galatia, “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh” (Gal. 5:16).



:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Yes, because a book that's been repeatedly translated in the hands of tyrants for 2000 years should be your source for all wisdom, knowledge, and law. :rolleyes:


That's just not true...

It's a lie that people conveniently believe with no basis to back it up...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
THE NATURE OF MAN (http://www.contendingforthefaith.com/responses/bible-answer-man/nature.html)



Elvis, somehow I don't think you're an authority on moderation.

The analogy of equating homos to crack and liqour users was a bad one and nothing will fix that.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Bullshit, OD.

I want proof. Not your 'wisdom' on the matter.


It doesn't change the bottom line of the story though.

Just read post #102 again. That's all I have to say on the matter.

[Warham]

I never equated them to crack or liquor users. That's me who you are referring to, not Elvis. I said I equate one bad thing with another.

As an example, committing murder and lieing to your parents are both bad things in God's eyes. Is one worse than the other? Probably to us, but perhaps not to him.

Does God consider homosexuality a bad thing? I would say so given what's written in the scriptures.

Does God say that using foreign substances is a bad thing? I would think so, given that the Bible says to treat your body like a temple.

See, where you might see homosexuality as being 'normal' OD, I don't.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Does God consider homosexuality a bad thing? I would say so given what's written in the scriptures.

Does God say that using foreign substances is a bad thing? I would think so, given that the Bible says to treat your body like a temple.

See, where you might see homosexuality as being 'normal' OD, I don't.

Bottom line is that people shouldn't have to be "normal" to be treated equally under the law of the United States of America, and no scripture quoting is going to change that fact. Scripture quotes have no business being cited when discussing US law. It's god-damn laughable to me.

I have no problem with Christians and with the bible, but when those types start telling me what to do and what I can't do, they are a manifestation of the real devil, the evil, judgemental mind of man.

I don't know how we got to this point from the beginning of this round, but that's the bottom line.

[Warham]

I didn't say that scripture should be a part of US law, did I? I think the separate of church and state is necessary. I'm not forcing my beliefs on anybody, and don't want the government to.

It shouldn't be a part of US law, but having the Ten Commandments as a basis for your morals ain't a bad idea, I can tell you that.

Do whatever you want, OD! Good grief! Yeah, I'm sure Christians are holding you back in your life from doing all the things you want to do. Even though they do nothing against you, you still find a way to bitch about them, don't you?

To tell you the truth, I think you got us to where we are now.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
I didn't say that scripture should be a part of US law, did I? I think the separate of church and state is necessary. I'm not forcing my beliefs on anybody, and don't want the government to.

but they are

It shouldn't be a part of US law, but having the Ten Commandments as a basis for your morals ain't a bad idea, I can tell you that.

I never said it wasn't

Do whatever you want, OD! Good grief! Yeah, I'm sure Christians are holding you back in your life from doing all the things you want to do. Even though they do nothing against you, you still find a way to bitch about them, don't you?

To tell you the truth, I think you got us to where we are now.

I don't even know what the fuck we're talking about anymore. That's why I call you the 'junkyard dog.'

[Warham]

OD, the liberal left is trying to put their stamp on the laws as much as ANY fundamentalist Christian group.

Why aren't you out there bitching about them trying to change things?

Are you only concerned with Christians?

This whole conversation has been junk because you have no points to make.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
OD, the liberal left is trying to put their stamp on the laws as much as ANY fundamentalist Christian group.

Why aren't you out there bitching about them trying to change things?

Are you only concerned with Christians?

This whole conversation has been junk because you have no points to make.

Now that's just downright rude. We both lost the point, but I certainly made very good points through this exchange. Posts #73, #80, and #112 are all finely articulated and well thought out. But you just steamrolled right through them. Take time to listen to what I said instead of just reacting to me like I'm some damn faggot parading down your street in front of your children. I'm not. (no BBB, bad)

[Warham]

Like I said, I've read all of your points, and answered them all.

[academic punk]

yo, who has the most sand in their crotch on this thread? I think it's a real toss-up.

no pun intended.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Like I said, I've read all of your points, and answered them all.

no you didn't answer them all, you just frustrated me to the point where I don't give a shit anymore. God damn dude.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

I have no problem with Christians and with the bible, but when those types start telling me what to do and what I can't do, they are a manifestation of the real devil, the evil, judgemental mind of man.



What ??

You're telling us this is well thought out and articulate ??

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
OD, the liberal left is trying to put their stamp on the laws as much as ANY fundamentalist Christian group.

Why aren't you out there bitching about them trying to change things?

Are you only concerned with Christians?

This whole conversation has been junk because you have no points to make.

Give me an example of a Liberal left-wing conspiracy that at all comes close to the political organization of the evangelicals. And spare me the NOW BS, this isn't about equal rights and you know it.

BTW, be sure not to let you kids see "Shrek 2" or they will immediately want a sex change operation! LMAO And yes, these guys are serious.

www.traditionalvalues.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1659

Parents Beware: 'Shrek 2' Features Transgenderism And Crossdressing Themes

Summary: The DreamWorks' animated film, "Shrek 2," is billed as harmless entertainment but contains subtle sexual messages.

Parents who are thinking about taking their children to see "Shrek 2," may wish to consider the following: The movie features a male-to-female transgender (in transition) as an evil bartender. The character has five o'clock shadow, wears a dress and has female breasts. It is clear that he is a she-male. His voice is that of talk show host Larry King.

During a dance scene at the end of the movie, this transgendered man expresses sexual desire for Prince Charming, jumps on him, and both tumble to the floor.

In another scene in the movie, Shrek and Donkey need to be rescued from a dungeon where they are chained against the wall. The rescue is conducted by Pinocchio who is asked to lie so his nose will grow long enough for one of the smaller cartoon characters to use it as a bridge to reach Shrek and Donkey. Donkey encourages him to lie about something and suggests he lie about wearing women's underwear. When he denies wearing women's underwear, his nose begins to grow.

An earlier scene in the movie features a wolf dressed in grandma's clothing and reading a book when Prince Charming encounters him. Later, one of the characters refers to the wolf's gender confusion.

TVC's report, "A Gender Identity Disorder Goes Mainstream," explains the transgender agenda and the effort to deconstruct the biological reality of male and female. DreamWorks is helping in this effort by promoting cross dressing and transgenderism in this animated film.

Fear! Homo Agenda! Run away! Shut yourself off from outside culture!

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What ??

You're telling us this is well thought out and articulate ??

I wonder how much of what goes on here you really understand. :rolleyes:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What ??

You're telling us this is well thought out and articulate ??

ok, I think there should have been a semi-colon in there somewhere.

[Warham]

I don't think you are frustrated by us, but what the Bible says on these matters.

If you don't like it, ignore it.

[JCOOK]

Originally posted by FORD
And that's exactly why Junior is the absolute worst pResident ever. Because his entire Fraudministration is composed of war criminals, liars, and traitors. And an idiot as the supposed leader.

Sorry Ford that was the Clinton administration:p

[JCOOK]

By the way the BIBLE is full of "accounts" of every sin imaginable, war, murder, lust,greed, gluttony,slavery,racism,drunkeness...every possible little kind of wickedness that can be conceived.

[Angel]

Originally posted by JCOOK
By the way the BIBLE is full of "accounts" of every sin imaginable, war, murder, lust,greed, gluttony,slavery,racism,drunkeness...every possible little kind of wickedness that can be conceived.

Of course it does, it was written by man, after all. :D