Could someone explain to me why this is a bad idea?

[Seshmeister]

I would particulrly like to hear from the 'Christians' on this one.

I've had a moment of clarity.

It's actually pretty fucking straightforward.

Military Spending

Country In Billion Dollars
United States 335.7
Japan 46.7
United Kingdom 36
France 33.6
China 31.1
Germany 27.7
Saudi Arabia 21.6
Italy 21.1
Iran 17.5
South Korea 13.5


From http://borgenproject.org/Cost_of_Ending_Poverty.html

How much it would cost to sort shit out?

• Eliminate Starvation and Malnutrition ($19 billion)
• Provide Shelter ($21 billion)
• Remove Landmines ($4 billion)
• Eliminate Nuclear Weapons ($7 billion)
• Refugee Relief ($5 billion)
• Eliminate Illiteracy ($5 billion)
• Provide Clean, Safe Water ($10 billion)
• Stabilize Population ($10.5 billion)
• Prevent Soil Erosion ($24 billion)

At the moment 33 000 kids die each DAY from starvation. The last possible excuse for the Iraq war is that Saddam killed 300 000 over a 15 yeqar period.

That's the equivalent of less than 2 weeks of poverty deaths.

So say the US reduces military spending by a third. It still leaves her with a military budget 5 times what anyone else has. We keep the shortfall in the US economy by converting a third of US forces into an anti poverty/shit army. These guys gain skills in more diverse areas than cleaning rifles and will find it easier to get jobs post service. Plus noone shoots at them.

Most of the money won't even leave the US economy because it can provide the food, water puification plants, teachers. blankets, houses etc.

Terrorism wiped out at a stroke because you're the good guys.

What would Jesus do?

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

I don't know where you got the figures from but you low-balled the US. We're spending $421 Billion on defense this year.

[Seshmeister]

I thought that.

I think the figure is a couple of years out of date.

It just makes my case more strongly.

[Full Bug]

Peace comes at a hefty price....

[Seshmeister]

But much less than war

[Full Bug]

True....

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I thought that.

I think the figure is a couple of years out of date.

It just makes my case more strongly.

It does make your case more so.

I wonder where the money goes sometimes, and why we don't have forts on the moon by now for that kind of money?!!

I was going over the equipment used by the Black Watch Regiment and marvelled at how well equipped they are despite the smaller budgets. Where does it all go in the US? I know when I was in the US Army, I lived in shitty barracks for a while, so it's definitely NOT "quality of life."

[Seshmeister]

I bet the owners of the defense contractors live pretty well...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I bet the owners of the defense contractors live pretty well...

YUP! And I bet the Generals that retire from the US Military and become lobbyists also live well.

But I guess the short answer to my question would be R & D. But I still think it's bullshit that we spend so much. I mean, when any army buys a weapon system, it's payed for and remains in service for 20-30 years (with improvements and rebuilds). But still, how can we pay so fucking much?

[Cathedral]

Sesh, You have posted a thread that i totally agree with, and who'd have thunk it when politics or religion are involved?

We have never really seen eye to eye on issues of political substance, but i salute you for this one.

Roth On, Broham!

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I would particulrly like to hear from the 'Christians' on this one.

I've had a moment of clarity.

It's actually pretty fucking straightforward.

Military Spending

Country In Billion Dollars
United States 335.7
Japan 46.7
United Kingdom 36
France 33.6
China 31.1
Germany 27.7
Saudi Arabia 21.6
Italy 21.1
Iran 17.5
South Korea 13.5


From http://borgenproject.org/Cost_of_Ending_Poverty.html

How much it would cost to sort shit out?

• Eliminate Starvation and Malnutrition ($19 billion)
• Provide Shelter ($21 billion)
• Remove Landmines ($4 billion)
• Eliminate Nuclear Weapons ($7 billion)
• Refugee Relief ($5 billion)
• Eliminate Illiteracy ($5 billion)
• Provide Clean, Safe Water ($10 billion)
• Stabilize Population ($10.5 billion)
• Prevent Soil Erosion ($24 billion)

At the moment 33 000 kids die each DAY from starvation. The last possible excuse for the Iraq war is that Saddam killed 300 000 over a 15 yeqar period.

That's the equivalent of less than 2 weeks of poverty deaths.

So say the US reduces military spending by a third. It still leaves her with a military budget 5 times what anyone else has. We keep the shortfall in the US economy by converting a third of US forces into an anti poverty/shit army. These guys gain skills in more diverse areas than cleaning rifles and will find it easier to get jobs post service. Plus noone shoots at them.

Most of the money won't even leave the US economy because it can provide the food, water puification plants, teachers. blankets, houses etc.

Terrorism wiped out at a stroke because you're the good guys.

What would Jesus do?

Cheers!

:gulp:

I've got it, we'll just create a "department of peace" in the U.S., and create an international "league of nations" that will declare war illegal! That'll free up all the money you seek for socialism!

Silly hippie. ;)

[Full Bug]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Sesh, You have posted a thread that i totally agree with, and who'd have thunk it when politics or religion are involved?

We have never really seen eye to eye on issues of political substance, but i salute you for this one.

Roth On, Broham!
Not bad for a guy that wears a kilt.(Cough* skirt cough*):D

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I've got it, we'll just create a "department of peace" in the U.S., and create an international "league of nations" that will declare war illegal! That'll free up all the money you seek for socialism!

Silly hippie. ;)

Who said anything about war or league of nations or socialism?

You can't think outside the box because of your military training.

With my plan you would have got a better job when you left the military.

And BigBadBill might even have a job...:)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister


You can't think outside the box because of your military training.



The phrase "think outside the box" was officially obsolete five years ago. :D :gulp:

[Jesterstar]

The Secret orders are funneling cash.

[ELVIS]

The problem with this is getting all of the world to drop their personal and political agendas, and learn to live for each other...

Sort of like being a real Christian...

When Jesus returns, and he will, things will be much different...


Nice thread...


:gulp:
*water*

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by ELVIS
The problem with this is getting all of the world to drop their personal and political agendas, and learn to live for each other...

Sort of like being a real Christian...

When Jesus returns, and he will, things will be much different...


Nice thread...


:gulp:
*water*

I just presented a possible real life Scenairio in which Jesus can Physically return.

[ELVIS]

Yes, I know...

[Jesterstar]

I'm not knocking your Faith man. Just so you know.

[Cathedral]

I think it would be a great step forward, if like Elvis said, the rest of the world would follow suit.
But being the first to set an example would do one of two things:

1) Work well and bring about world peace.

Or

2) Make us a vulnerable target to be destroyed by the evil nature of some of our enemies.

But it is an idea that i happen to agree with to a point. As much as i would like to believe it would be possible, i still have my doubts and the part i like best is that we wouldn't eliminate the military completely, but instead alter how it is implimented.

[Big Train]

This scenario assumes a LOT.

#1. Throwing money at something makes it go away.

#2. These numbers are even in the ballpark.

#3. The money goes where it ACTUALLY supposed to.

#4. They do with it what it is allocated for.

#5. The conditions that created these scenarios in the first place cease to exist afte the capital infusion.

#6. These numbers are the TOTAL dollar amount needed, no sliding of costs of changes. Those goals by the way are QUITE broad.

#7. Reduction of our military spending doesn't increase instability in the areas we allow to ride our military coattails (Europe, Asia), increasing these social ills even further, making the original figures obsolete.

These are the just the top off my head. It is a nice sentiment you've expreseed and I would love to live in a world where this could be done, but it just doesn't exist.

[Little_Skittles]

We are the body of christ.......we dont want to abolish or help out this is our choice......You can't have it both ways.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
This scenario assumes a LOT.

#1. Throwing money at something makes it go away.

#2. These numbers are even in the ballpark.

#3. The money goes where it ACTUALLY supposed to.

#4. They do with it what it is allocated for.

#5. The conditions that created these scenarios in the first place cease to exist afte the capital infusion.

#6. These numbers are the TOTAL dollar amount needed, no sliding of costs of changes. Those goals by the way are QUITE broad.

#7. Reduction of our military spending doesn't increase instability in the areas we allow to ride our military coattails (Europe, Asia), increasing these social ills even further, making the original figures obsolete.

These are the just the top off my head. It is a nice sentiment you've expreseed and I would love to live in a world where this could be done, but it just doesn't exist.

very good

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Big Train
This scenario assumes a LOT.

#1. Throwing money at something makes it go away.

#2. These numbers are even in the ballpark.

#3. The money goes where it ACTUALLY supposed to.

#4. They do with it what it is allocated for.

#5. The conditions that created these scenarios in the first place cease to exist afte the capital infusion.

#6. These numbers are the TOTAL dollar amount needed, no sliding of costs of changes. Those goals by the way are QUITE broad.

#7. Reduction of our military spending doesn't increase instability in the areas we allow to ride our military coattails (Europe, Asia), increasing these social ills even further, making the original figures obsolete.

These are the just the top off my head. It is a nice sentiment you've expreseed and I would love to live in a world where this could be done, but it just doesn't exist.

Every one of your points happens just now when the money is spent on arms.

#1 Throwing money at defence has increased the threat to the US

#2 What happened to the ballpark figures for Iraq?

#3 Is there some waste in military spending? I'm guessing 10s of billions.

#4 I'm talking the US not giving them money but doing the work themselves so as not to damage the economy. Obviously including training etc so that they take over in a phased way.

#5 I'm taling about a revenue infusion not a one off capital spend, that's the key. Current military spending is revenue.

#6 I think these figures are a bit optimistic too but they are a hell of a start. In any case the US should be looking towards a 75% drop in military spending in the medium term still leaving it with double the budget of any other country. The cold war is over.

#7 A decrease in military spending coupled with a massive aid program will decrease instability hugely. People with food and hope are far less likely to blow themselves up.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[John Ashcroft]

#1 Not!

#2 Who cares? The UK isn't footing the bill, and it's worth every penny.

#3 Of course. But if you think military spending is the biggest and most wasteful of government spending, you're sorely mistaken.

#4 Been doing that for years. More than any other country at any other period of time in the history of mankind (not the wrestler mind you...) So I guess we could blame this kindness for the "hate" other nations have for the U.S. rather than defense spending (after all, we spend far more on programs you've just described).

#5 No government creates revenue

#6 The figures are bullshit. And mind you, it only takes one nation of dissent to throw the whole equation off. Do you suppose we should place our trust in Putin?

#7 See #4

[Dr. Love]

Overall I think it's a nice idea for an idealistic world.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an idealistic world.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Dr. Love
Overall I think it's a nice idea for an idealistic world.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an idealistic world.

And that's the bottom line.

It's unfortunately, but every step back we take in any situation looks like weakness to the animals we're sparring with.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft


#6 The figures are bullshit. And mind you, it only takes one nation of dissent to throw the whole equation off. Do you suppose we should place our trust in Putin?



How are the figures "bullshit?"

[Big Train]

Exactly how does one pick an arbitrary number and say X will solve water issues, y will solve crime? If that were the case, Bill Gate could solve EVERYTHING personally.

Those numbers are not firm and they don't specify what they leave out and what they leave in.

For starters..

[Nickdfresh]

Um, $421 Billion spent on defense sounds pretty firm to me.

[Big Train]

Um yea..

But you explain to me how a number being spent on defense is absolutely 100% for sure going to remove ANY social ill.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Um yea..

But you explain to me how a number being spent on defense is absolutely 100% for sure going to remove ANY social ill.

I am not trying to explaining anything. My rhetorical question is why do we spend so much on defense in comparison to other countries? And why do we outspend the next six nations combined? And what do we get for all this?

I mean, if you are really for National Security, does it not make sense to spend a few billion dollars to develop other sources of energy so we can pull out of the Middle East?

[Big Train]

Look I agree about alt. energy sources.

We spend so much because it allows us influence in the world, by essentially subsidizing other nations.

I asked you the question because the original post is basic flawed thinking. Your failure to defend it only helps prove it even more.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
Those numbers are not firm and they don't specify what they leave out and what they leave in.

Just like gw's budget! :D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Look I agree about alt. energy sources.

We spend so much because it allows us influence in the world, by essentially subsidizing other nations.

I asked you the question because the original post is basic flawed thinking. Your failure to defend it only helps prove it even more.

How exactly do we 'subsidize' other nations with our military budget?

I really don't think rhetorical questions can be called 'flawed thinking.'

[Big Train]

Well, when we pay to have a huge presence in an area, it means that area can spend a LOT less than it should to defend itself (witness Canada). That money is then diverted to other areas of concern (healthcare). C,mon man, you went to school, this is basic guns vs. butter economics.

I'm not asking you to defend the your question, I'm asking to defend the original point Sesh made. Which is faulty socialist thinking: Throwing money at a problem makes it go away.

[Seshmeister]

I'm saying throwing money into defence(or in this case attack and intimidation) doesn't make the security problem go away so why not at least use it to stop 30 000 kids dying each day from starvation.

I realise most of them are just black folk with flies buzzing around but they are humans.

What deserves the most focus? 3 000 merchant bankers in a one off atrocity or 30 000 kids every day.

I would find it easier to accept this 'fuck them' attitude if I didn't have to hear it wrapped up in a bunch of fucking hypocritical shit about politicians all being christians.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Big Train]

And I would find your thought easier to take if it could actually be remotely feasiable. History is riddled with money allocated for helping a social ill going awry or creating even more problems (ex.oil for food), for a variety of reasons.

It isn't so much that our attitude is just "fuck em", it's just smart enough to know, from experience, that you can't just write checks and make things go away.

Like I said before, even just cutting back the military budget and saving trillions for OURSELVES will create further social ills in the countries we have bases. It all has an effect on the balance of the world.

It's a nice thought, but no reality.