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BigBadBrian
03-09-2005, 07:01 PM
Arms Sales Begin at Home
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Published: March 6, 2005

The New York Times


For the life of me, I simply do not understand why President Bush is objecting to the European Union's selling arms to China, ending a 16-year embargo. I mean, what's the problem?

There is an obvious compromise that Mr. Bush could put on the table that would defuse this whole issue. Mr. Bush should simply say to France, Germany and their E.U. partners that America has absolutely no objection to Europeans' selling arms to China - on one condition: that they sell arms to themselves first. That's right, the U.S. should support the export to China of any defense system that the Europeans buy for their own armies first. Buy one, sell one.

But what the U.S. should not countenance is that at a time when the Europeans are spending peanuts on their own defense, making themselves into paper tigers and free riders on America for global policing, that they start exporting arms to a growing tiger - China.

This is especially true since the real reason that the E.U. wants to end its arms embargo with China is to position itself better to sell more Airbus passenger jets to Beijing. Weapons systems are the loss leader that the E.U. is dangling in front of the Chinese to persuade them to buy more of Europe's civilian airplanes. Indeed, what is really sad about the European arms sale proposal to China is that the E.U. doesn't seem to be demanding any political price, even the slightest change in behavior, from Beijing in return, except some vague "code of conduct." Sure. Ask the software industry about Chinese promises not to pirate technology.

I am not part of the bash-China lobby. I believe that the U.S. needs to engage China, not isolate it, and work with it so that it takes its rightful place on the world stage. I believe China is largely a force for stability in Asia, not instability. But one reason for that is that the U.S. has countered any other impulses from Beijing by maintaining a stable balance of power among China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan - a balance that has helped the entire region prosper. The sale of advanced European weapons to China can only weaken that balance.

But what really concerns me is Europe. Europe's armies were designed for static defense against the Soviet Union. But the primary security challenges to Europe today come from the Middle East, Central Asia and Africa. If you put all the E.U. armies together, they total around two million soldiers in uniform - almost the same size as the U.S. armed forces. But there is one huge difference - only about 5 percent of the European troops have the training, weaponry, logistical and intelligence support and airlift capability to fight a modern, hot war outside of Europe. (In the U.S. it is 70 percent in crucial units.)

The rest of the European troops - some of whom are unionized! - do not have the training or tools to fight alongside America in a hot war. They might be good for peacekeeping, but not for winning a war against a conventional foe. God save the Europeans if they ever felt the need to confront a nuclear-armed Iran. U.S. defense spending will be over $400 billion in 2005. I wish it could be less, but one reason it can't is that the United States of Europe is spending less than half of what we are. And the U.S. and E.U. really are the pillars of global stability.

The U.S. is building 180 C-17 long-range lift aircraft to transport troops and tanks anywhere in the world, and 112 C-5's, to replace the aging C-141's. The European NATO members have exactly four C-17's. They all belong to Britain and even those are leased from Boeing. The Europeans are so short of long-range lift aircraft that they basically have to depend on leased Russian and Ukrainian Antonov transports to get to the battlefield. George Robertson, the former NATO secretary general, used to ask them what they would do if a war broke out during the Christmas season, when most of the Antonovs are leased to toy companies shipping electronic games around the world. Ride, mister?

For all of Europe's complaining about what the Bush team stands for, my ears are still ringing with the remark that a German columnist recently made to me in Berlin: "What do we stand for?" he asked. What is Europe's foreign policy? America is saying that the largest strategic issue of our time is peacefully managing the rise of China. We have to get this right. Having a strong Europe on our side - not on both sides - would be a big help.

If Europe wants to go pacifist, that's fine. But there is nothing worse than a pacifist that sells arms - especially in a way that increases the burden on its U.S. ally and protector.

Cathedral
03-10-2005, 02:49 AM
We are in this alone, nothing is going to change that.
Everyone better arm themselves in some way or another because it is coming and coming fast to our shores again.

At first, the silence was calming, but there is a storm on the horizon.

Nitro Express
03-10-2005, 03:34 AM
I lived in Hong Kong for sevral years. You sell to the Chinese one time. Once they strip it down and learn the technology, they make the Chinese equivalent of it.

The Chinese are only taking advantage of a situation that the Americans are letting happen. The highly paid, top management of US companies are simply branding and marketing Chinese made goods while they lay off workers and close down plants in the US. The top managers make more money than ever and screw everyone below them.

If this trend continues, the US will lose most of it's manufacturing capability and with that will also go the R&D. We will simply be a nation that has to import everything and with a weak dollar, that is not a good scenero.

The US has so many enemies right now and I'm afraid it will only grow. As this happens we seem to be split down the middle politically at home. I think we are in for some tough tough times ahead and it's always possible the shit will hit the fan hard somewhere.

Cathedral
03-10-2005, 03:49 AM
Nitro, You speak the truth, and there are most certainly hard times on the horizon, and that is cashable in any Federal Reserve Bank.

60 years of building hatred, helped along by our careless ability to create new technologies we exploited before knowing exactly what we had, it was suicide.

Wasn't it China that copied our B-29 bombers in the 40's?

China is key in these last days and right now they are the growing World Power to deal with.

Nitro Express
03-10-2005, 04:06 AM
Unlike the Soviet Union, the Chinese are getting capital by trading in the world marketplace and along with this trade comes technology. We won the cold war by outspending the Soviets. That's not an option with China; infact, China buys US treasury bonds that finance our debt. China is actually financing our economy right now.

Right now we can't even make missle guidance systems without Chinese parts. The rare earth magnets needed for such guidance systems were manufactuer by a company in Indiana. The Chinese bought the company, layed off the workers, exported the technology and manufacturing equipment to China. Now we have no US source for rare earth magnets. This is one example of how China is fighting and winning the second cold war Americans are too dumb to realize we are in the middle of.

Cathedral
03-10-2005, 04:16 AM
Yeah, our leaders are too pre-occupied telling the rest of the world what to do, as if they will, like they are children of the Great US.

Thanks for the info, Nitro. I feel as though a learned something today.

Nitro Express
03-10-2005, 04:46 AM
The Chinese are using the short-term greed of our business leaders and politicians to hurt us long-term. The key to manufacturing is machine tools and bearings. US machine tool companies are struggling to compete with Chinese made tools. Timken bearing who has been making bearings in Ohio for 100 years is now moving their manufacturing to China.

In the long-run what happens when the Chinese just decides they don't want to sell us these goods anymore? We won WWII because we could out manufacture the Germans and the Japanese. Bearing plants were key targets in Germany because war machinery doesn't move without bearings. China won't even need to bomb us, they can simply refuse to sell to us and dump their US treasury bonds and crash our economy.

The United States is becoming a country that makes nothing that the rest of the world wants to buy and has a currecy that nobody wants. The worlds money will go to other markets.

Now the question to ask yourself is: Are the Chinese willing to lose some profit to sink the United States economically? Wars cost lots of money. It just might be cheaper to lose some US investments and pull the rug from underneath Uncle Sam and watch him fall on his ass.

Like I said, we are in another cold war with China right now and they are winning. Most Americans don't even see what's happening. They are exited about the good deal they got on Chinese made crap at Walmart but think it's a shame the Rubbermade plant got closed down partially due to Walmarts cut-throat buying practices. The monopolistic trusts are coming back and they sell Chinese goods. A few people will make more money than they ever have while most will live a lesser lifestyle. The high saleries of this handful of people will come at the expense of the US economy and our national security. We are being sold out and sent up shit creek and most Americans think it's and exciting journey. SUCKERS!

Nitro Express
03-10-2005, 04:59 AM
Yeah, the arrogance in the US has to stop. We are a great country but we are letting a few people sell us out by exporting our industry and buying our politicians. It's almost like the Chinese are Al Capone and the US industrial leaders and political leaders are either intimidated or bought off by him.

The Romans once thought they were hot shit too. Look at what happened to them. No nation handles excessive wealth very well and it typically only lasts three generations before things hit rock bottom.

My main worry is will the US survive after it hits rock bottom? If you think things are politically dicey right now, just wait. There will be lots of potential Stalins and Hitlers coming out of the wood work to save the day. As stupid and gulliable as most Americans are right now, they will sell out for the chicken in every pot. If the Germans could get duped, we can too.

Look at the homeland security bill. That legislation opens a loop hole for the govt. to throw you in jail without a trial or due process. The war on terror gives crooked power grabbers a perfect excuss. Look at what Putin did after that Russian school was taken over by terrorists. He basically declared marshall law and grabbed more power for himself. Maybe the Islamic terrorists aren't are worse threat. Maybe the worse threat is what's being done in the name of fighting terrorism.

Complicated shit. What a fucking mess! We very well could end up in a civil war with variouse intrests trying to take advantage of the situation with outside enemies trying to attack everyone.

Nickdfresh
03-10-2005, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by Cathedral
We are in this alone, nothing is going to change that.
Everyone better arm themselves in some way or another because it is coming and coming fast to our shores again.

At first, the silence was calming, but there is a storm on the horizon.

Not true, we have the Japanese on our side, and the (South) Koreans too. And actually the North Koreans are becoming more a threat to China than anyone else. Their common border is a mess of crime and refugees.

And the Japanese Defense Forces, despite or because of continually having their asses kicked by Godzilla, are actually one of the best funded, most modern troops in the world. The Soviets used to piss and moan about how underrated they were.

http://www.dinosaur.org/gvstank.jpg

Seshmeister
03-10-2005, 07:30 PM
Nitro makes some great points in this thread that you guys should listen to.

The original cut and paste job is typical cock waving bullshit.

What the fuck is the point in winning a hot war if you can't police the peace?

Who are these hot wars going to be against?

Ludicrous closed mind bullshit to pour petrol on the insanity of the US pissing her money away on pointless defence spending. The US is getting into huge debt to the Chinese and everyone else in order to feed the industrial military complex that owns your politicians.

There is no way that anyone should be seeling arms to China. Any country that executes it's citizens is uncivilised.

I bet it's the French pushing for this. They would sell arms to Dr Evil...

Cheers!

:gulp:

Big Train
03-10-2005, 08:48 PM
Is it because I am a "Neo-Con" that I don't sense as much doom and gloom as you guys?

Seshmeister
03-10-2005, 09:43 PM
http://www.uul.com.au/images/ostrich.gif

Nitro Express
03-12-2005, 05:45 AM
There's always hope. Who would have ever thought the cold war would have ended the way it did? I remember before 9/11 happened there was a survey done that asked Americans if they thought a Pearl Harbor type of attack could happen again. Most said no. Shortly after we were attacked.

So yeah, life is too short to be a pessamist but then again, shit happens and we need to be prepared for it by not being lax on our security.

Satan
03-12-2005, 10:34 AM
Let's not forget that a certain family (http://www.google.com/search?q=Prescott+Bush+China) has deep connections in China......

http://www.usccc.org/mem-b.7.jpg

Satan
03-12-2005, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by Nitro Express
I remember before 9/11 happened there was a survey done that asked Americans if they thought a Pearl Harbor type of attack could happen again. Most said no. Shortly after we were attacked.



Do you remember who did this survey?

A Devil finds it interesting that such a question would be asked shortly before such an attack, especially in light of PNAC's call for such an event to take place in order to "justify" their agenda.

Big Train
03-13-2005, 03:35 AM
Sesh,

Being your usual illiterate self uses pics to describe things. Love it..

Anyway, for all the doom and gloom, there is opportunity, the great engine of capitalism. There is all kinds of money to be made in energy (alt. sources), manufacturing and the new industries that crop up with new problems. The problem isn't so much existing industries (although there are some things of concern), but inventing and dominating new ones. I firmly believe we will figure them out as the century progresses. As for China being the big bad bully, there is also Russia. It's a balancing act, they cannot succeed if we fail, and vice versa, it's that simple. There is too much money in the balance.

My bigger concern closer to where I live is the BLATANT intellectual property bullshit going on (mine being the music industry) that, combined with similar industries, is eroding one of our chief assests we sell to the world: Our Ideas. Whether it's the label's stuff being burned like there is no tomorrow, or a set of golf clubs being knocked off left and right, it's that kind of bullshit that is bleeding this economy and will only continue to do get worse in more industries. Cases will be harder to file and win, as there is precendent for all kinds of shit to fly which never has. That is going to eat at more and more jobs as the bottom lines get bled.

Who benefits? China..

Nitro Express
03-13-2005, 04:19 AM
Exactly. I took a shit load of finance and economics classes in college. One class dealt with the history of economics and we all concluded that Marxism was a complete failure but unchecked capitalism isn't the answer. You hear a lot about laise fare and Adam Smith's invisible hand. That's all great but in the end of pure capitalism you have monopolies that become as menacing as dictators. You need some regulation with the capatalism.

Teddy Roosevelt showed the govt. could break up trusts without ruining the economy. I think he was a great president. He came from wealth but cared about the average American. He had a real can do attitude. America built the Panama Canal (Many viewed it as an impossible project) when other countries failed.

The problem now is capitalism is alive and well but fewer and fewer people are bennefiting from it. Corporate leaders pay and bennefits have gone up exponetially since the 1960's and these companies employee less and less people. US companies mainly outsource the manufacturing to China or some other off shore cheap labor haven and slap a brandname on the product. This will continue to happen as long as the people on the top of the corporate ladder make a shit load of money and get away with it.