My suggestion for a new gun enforcement measure

[The Scatologist]

Chips in every handgun within 5 years that will alert people with a handgun scanner if someone within range is concealing a handgun.

It should be mandatory, and every handgun that has already been purchased, outside of vintage antiques, will need to have the chip implanted at a police station.


Anyone found with an unchipped handgun after the 5 years, shall be put in jail unless they can prove that they forgot that they had the weapon, or that it was planted on them, or some other similar circumstance. Although, if you forget where your handgun is, I really doubt you should have had one in the first place.


Let's take a look at 3 possible scenarios

1. Some kid who has been picked on brings a handgun to school to scare some bullies. The handgun scanner in the school picks up a signal, Immediatly, the police are called, the handgun scanner's signal is traced, and the gun is found, and a tragedy may have just been prevented.


2. A criminal is thinking of breaking into someone's house. He has a portable handheld handgun scanner with him, sees that there are guns in the house, and well of course he's not gonna get in there. He doesn't want his head blown off.


3. A criminal's house is busted in a drug raid. A gun is found, with no chip. The criminal may claim that he forgot about the gun, but it was obviously handled recently. The criminal is now busted for having a illegal weapon.

[Hardrock69]

Why not just perform a coup d 'tat and turn the US into a communist police state, and let jack-booted storm troopers kick in the doors of all legitimate gun owners and take all their guns away?
:rolleyes:

[ashstralia]

nah, just keep killing yourselves.

[The Scatologist]

Hardrock's reply is a perfect example of schizophrenic handgun owners who never should have been allowed to have a handgun in the first place, making such measures necessary, for the safety of all.




(Weren't you all for the Patriot Act though?)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Why not just perform a coup d 'tat and turn the US into a communist police state, and let jack-booted storm troopers kick in the doors of all legitimate gun owners and take all their guns away?
:rolleyes:

Do you drink NRA recipe Kool-Aid often? The NRA's paranoia regarding "jack-boot thugs" crap is almost as responsible for gun violence as the criminals themselves!

Did you realize that if an ATF agent busts someone for possession of an illegal firearm, while in the course of committing another felony (i.e. drug dealers), they have special jurisdiction. ATF agents can almost automatically put criminals away for five or fifteen years! And that's NO PAROLE! NO IF's, ANDS, or BUTS!

Guess who's the favorite target of the Gun Lobby, yup', those evil Nazi bastard ATF agents that want to take away your (illegal) guns! The NRA is as much about undermining the rule of law as it is about protecting ownership, that is why I refuse to join despite being asked several times!

[Nickdfresh]

License to Kill
How the GOP helped John Allen Muhammad get a sniper rifle.

By Brent Kendall

Bull's Eye Shooter Supply is a warehouse-sized gun store near the waterfront in Tacoma, Wash. Boasting the Puget Sound's largest selection of firearms and ammunition, the store is a mecca for area sportsmen, who come to browse the latest hunting rifles or practice their marksmanship at the store's 12-lane shooting range. An outside wall of the store bears a hand-painted mural depicting lions, elephants, cheetahs, and water buffaloes. Some of the store's firearms, however, have felled more than big game.

One such gun was a .223-caliber semiautomatic Bushmaster XM15 rifle, which Bull's Eye received from the manufacturer on July 2 of last year. On Sept. 21, a bullet from that gun blew through the back of a liquor store manager in Montgomery, Ala. (she died in the emergency room soon after). Two days later, another bullet burrowed through the head of a beauty store manager in Baton Rouge, La., who died instantly. Between Oct. 2-3, bullets from the gun ripped through the bodies of six people in Montgomery County, Md., killing all of them. Over the next three weeks, the gun claimed seven more victims--including a bus driver, a female FBI analyst, and a 13-year-old schoolboy--killing four of them. Finally, on Oct. 24, law enforcement authorities found the Bushmaster in the back seat of a blue Chevy Caprice occupied by John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo.

Exactly how the gun got into the men's hands remains something of a mystery. Muhammad was banned by federal law from purchasing any gun because of a restraining order obtained by his ex-wife; his ineligibility would have shown up during the Brady background check that gun stores are required to run on potential buyers. Malvo was ineligible because he was a juvenile and an illegal immigrant. Bull's Eye has no record of selling the weapon, much less conducting a background check on Muhammad or Malvo for it. Bull's Eye employees have reported seeing Malvo at the store this summer, and later noticed the Bushmaster was not in its display case. But the store did not file the federally required theft report. When the store's owner, Brian Borgelt, was questioned by agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF), the federal agency charged with enforcing the nation's gun laws, he claimed not to have known the gun was missing until authorities traced it back to his store. Two weeks after the sniper suspects' arrests, he filed the theft report with the police and ATF.

This wasn't the first time that Bull's Eye was caught unable to account for deadly firearms that had passed through its doors. ATF inspectors, armed with data showing that weapons used in crimes had originated from Borgelt's store, audited it three times between 1998 and 2001, and found record-keeping irregularities each time. An audit in 2000 revealed that Borgelt could not account, through sales records, for 160 guns. Being unable to account for the whereabouts of even one-fifth that many weapons would be alarming, according to former ATF agents, even for a store the size of Bull's Eye. Moreover, Borgelt hadn't filed personal income tax returns since 1995 and hadn't filed some business tax forms since 1994--this despite $1.5 million in store bank deposits.

Yet despite all the warning signs, ATF didn't shut the store down. It didn't suspend Bull's Eye's license, or put it on probation. It didn't even administer a fine--not one $5 ticket to let the store know that the bureau meant business. Two years later, a $1,600 sniper rifle seems to have disappeared from the store like a pack of M&Ms from a convenience mart, surfacing 3,000 miles away in one of the biggest killing sprees in American history--oh, and one more thing: Bull's Eye is still open for business.

In the wake of September 11, the CIA, FBI, and INS have all been picked apart for failing to act on information that might have prevented the terrorist attacks. So far, there has been no similar call for investigating ATF, even though experts worry that Muhammad--a member of the Nation of Islam who reportedly considered America a terrorist state--may inspire al Qaeda or other terrorist groups to conduct similar attacks with easily obtained sniper rifles.

But there's a reason you won't see anyone investigating ATF: Its failings are the direct result of actions by the Republican politicians who now control both houses of Congress. At the behest of the National Rifle Association (NRA), GOP lawmakers (and some conservative Democrats) have saddled the bureau with so many legal restrictions that it has little practical power to deter sellers from allowing weapons to flow to criminals. ATF could have cracked down harder on Bull's Eye, but its lack of aggressiveness was precisely what GOP lawmakers had intended. Pro-gun-control Democrats could have made an issue last fall of how Muhammad obtained a sniper rifle, but they remained silent in the face of feared retribution at the polls by the NRA. Now, as the minority party, Democrats have little power to investigate anything, even if they wanted to.

Convenient Lack of Suspicion

Every year, more than 200,000 guns used in crimes are traced back to licensed gun dealers like Bull's Eye. Some are originally purchased by law-abiding citizens and later stolen. Others get sold (inadvertently) by dealers to "straw purchasers" who don't have criminal records but are acting as fronts for criminals. In many other cases, however, gun dealers eager to make an extra buck simply sell firearms to anyone who wants them, skipping background checks and falsifying paperwork to cover their tracks.

Of the 83,000 retail firearms dealers in America, ATF shuts down only about 25 annually. These are the most egregious wrongdoers, dealers caught red-handed fencing stolen weapons or openly selling large numbers of firearms to criminals. Yet these few cases account for only a fraction of the guns that flow to criminals from licensed dealers. The bigger problem stems from hundreds of other dealers who, through laziness, sloppy inventory control, convenient lack of suspicion, or under-the-table shenanigans, wind up arming criminals.

It is these dealers that ATF has virtually no power to control. Though it can shut a dealer down permanently--a fitting punishment only in egregious cases--ATF has no power to temporarily suspend a dealer's license, or impose a fine--steps that might remind a dealer to be vigilant about sales rules. Nor can it audit a gun dealer more than once a year, a rule that assures crooked dealers 364 days to do uninterrupted business. And because of dubious judicial precedent, the bureau's agents can't get a dealer charged with selling to a felon by going undercover and posing as felons.

Worse still, from a law-enforcement perspective, is the fact that federal law treats all record-keeping errors by gun dealers as, at most, misdemeanors--even in cases where ATF can prove that a dealer falsified records. This makes it practically impossible to bring gun dealers to court for record-keeping violations, since federal prosecutors, already burdened with more felony cases than they can litigate, usually don't accept misdemeanor referrals.

You'll be hard pressed to find another federal agency that, charged with enforcing laws dealing with legal but potentially dangerous products, must operate under similar handicaps. The Drug Enforcement Administration, which monitors the illegal diversion of prescription drugs, can pursue felony charges against a pharmacy for record-keeping problems; temporarily suspend the license of a problematic pharmacy; and when it has evidence of wrongdoing, mount an undercover approach to determine if a doctor is writing bogus prescriptions or if a pharmacist is illegally dispensing controlled substances. Even the Department of Agriculture, which is notoriously emasculated when it comes to enforcing federal standards, can, after a major food poisoning incident, temporarily stop production at an unsanitary meat packing plant, fine the plant, and re-visit for a new round of inspections in six months.

Reagan's Political Trifecta

Washington has been trying to keep deadly weapons out of criminal hands for almost seven decades. In 1934, alarmed by the violence of organized criminals like Al Capone, Congress passed the nation's first gun-control law, which gave the Treasury Department the power to tax and require owner registration of "gangster-type weapons." In 1938, it passed another measure requiring gun manufacturers and dealers to obtain federal licenses and banning the sale of firearms to known criminals. Thirty years later, in response to rising crime rates and the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King Jr., the federal government clamped down further with passage of the 1968 Gun Control Act. Among other things, this law mandated that sellers keep transaction records and prohibited felons, illegal aliens, and a few other categories of people from buying or possessing firearms. In 1972, Treasury designated ATF as a separate agency in the department.

The NRA vehemently opposed the 1968 legislation, which marked the beginning of the association's transformation from its more traditional focus on training sportsmen in gun safety into the anti-enforcement, lobbying superpower we know today. Since 1968, the association has increasingly devoted more resources to waging political fights, and has constantly lobbied to minimize the power of ATF, often breathing fire when speaking of it. During the 1970s as ATF stepped up its policing of gun dealers, the NRA fought back, portraying ATF agents as "jack-booted fascists" and arguing that efforts targeting gun stores and their customers were nothing more than harassment. After all, the NRA argued, criminals don't get their guns from gun stores; they steal them from law-abiding gun-owners.

At the end of the decade, the NRA found a big friend in Ronald Reagan. By being anti-ATF and supporting gun dealers, Reagan could demonstrate that he was pro-gun, pro-small business, and anti-federal regulation--the perfect trifecta for a conservative Republican. The Gipper promised to eliminate ATF, and once in office he moved to make the pledge good. When the NRA reversed its position, fearing that a proposed merger with the Secret Service would make federal firearms authority politically untouchable, Reagan backed the NRA in substituting deregulation for reorganization, signing the 1986 Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which significantly curtailed ATF's enforcement powers against the firearms industry. The law limited the number of times ATF could conduct a compliance audit on a gun dealer to once a year. More importantly, it reduced all record-keeping violations--no matter whether there was one violation or a thousand, and no matter if records were falsified--to misdemeanors, thus entirely removing the threat that ATF could pursue felony charges against dealers flouting record-keeping laws and selling guns to prohibited persons under the table.

Gunning for Reform

Bill Clinton's election began to change the landscape in two ways. First, in 1993 the administration passed, against stiff GOP opposition, the Brady law, which required gun dealers to run background checks on all buyers. The next year, it pushed through Congress legislation banning most new assault-style weapons and prohibiting juveniles from possessing handguns. The NRA responded by declaring war on the president and the Democratic Party. The Democrats lost their majorities in both houses of Congress that year; most political experts credit NRA campaign efforts with several key GOP victories.

By 1995, however, the Brady law was beginning to show results. In its first year, it had blocked 40,000 attempts to purchase firearms by criminals, juveniles, and other prohibited persons--evidence that in fact many criminals were looking to gun stores for their firepower. Beginning the next year, the Clinton administration directed ATF to work with local law enforcement to expand the tracing of guns recovered by police, and to invest in new tracing technologies. As a result, ATF discovered that tens of thousands of crime guns actually flowed from licensed retail dealers and pawnbrokers to the streets. Moreover, most of the guns flowed primarily from a small minority of dealers--just 1.2 percent of dealers accounted for 57 percent of those crime gun tracings (ATF shuts down only about one in 40 of these per year).

Believe it or not, these were stunning discoveries, and they demonstrably proved that, despite decades of NRA propaganda, gun stores do play a major role in supplying criminals with guns.

Responding to the information, the White House won big increases in ATF's enforcement and inspector ranks. But to really deter licensed sellers from violating federal laws--as opposed to just arresting them after guns hit the streets--ATF needed powers to encourage compliance: the ability to levy fines, suspend licenses, audit when necessary, and charge dealers with felony record-keeping violations when appropriate. The Clinton administration and a few lone voices in Congress, especially Sen. Chuck Schumer (D-N.Y.), pushed legislation to give ATF this new authority while also requiring background checks at gun shows.

A string of high-school shootings, which peaked with the catastrophe at Columbine High School, gave the legislation enough momentum to narrowly pass the Senate in 1999, with Vice President Al Gore providing a tie-breaking vote. The House passed a weaker version of the Senate bill, and the measure died when efforts to reconcile the two versions went nowhere. Gore's highly publicized vote, according to many political analyses, was a major factor in his loss of West Virginia's five electoral votes in the 2000 election.

In theory, the sniper shootings should have been an occasion to raise again the issue of ATF's limited enforcement powers against dealers supplying criminals with guns. But while debates have raged about whether congressionally imposed restraints on the CIA and the FBI contributed to those agencies' failures to foresee impending terrorist activity, few have asked about similar restraints that might have kept ATF from preventing the terror on the East Coast--even if it had usable information. And it's pretty obvious why. Republicans, as the architects of the current regulatory system, are directly responsible for ATF's limited powers. Democrats, still smarting from the drubbings they took in 1994 and 2000, are understandably nervous about stirring up the gun issue, even though the sniper shootings happened in the thick of an election cycle and captured nationwide attention.

Other than in a few scattered newspaper editorials, the issue of ATF enforcement has stayed off the public radar screen. By and large, people have little clue just what the laws are, and they have no idea how toothless ATF is when it comes to policing gun dealers. Even government lawyers don't know how hamstrung the bureau is. "I've sat in rooms of federal prosecutors--career prosecutors--and ATF people are explaining to them, 'This is the way firearms commerce is governed,'" says David Kennedy, a senior researcher in criminal justice policy at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, "and the prosecutors don't believe them. It's surreal."

Had ATF been vested with sensible enforcement powers, the world might never have heard of John Allen Muhammad or John Lee Malvo. Had a few political fights turned out differently, the bureau would have been able to fine Bull's Eye for its previous violations, suspend its operations, or pursue felony record-keeping charges. Had the NRA and GOP not worked together to cripple the federal government's ability to enforce gun laws, bullets from that Bushmaster rifle might not have ended the lives of 10 people along the Interstate 95 corridor. Yet despite the dead, the wounded, and the terrified, little has changed politically. If horrors such as these can't spark public scrutiny and political outrage, it's hard to understand what will.

Yup! Wouldn't want to "enforce the laws on the books" as is so much vaunted in NRA propaganda! I mean why restrict our absolutionist personal sense of entitlement so we can go, oh say, fill up our tank with gas without getting fucking shot!? NEVER!

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.internetweekly.org/images/info_nra_alt.jpg

[FORD]

The NRA is so extremist that even Poppy Bush resigned his membership.

When you're too extreme for the guy who organized the greatest political hits of the 1960's, that's extreme.

[The Scatologist]

Big Train, I would rather have it that someone else steals this idea, for the fate that awaits that person, will probably be a bullet in the head from some NRA nut head.

[Nitro Express]

I love all the anti-gun liberals who get caught having illegal or legal guns for that matter. Shit, even Sarah Brady purchased a gun for her kid.

Smith & Wesson is working on some technology that fires the gun with an electronic trigger. The gun won't fire unless a special ring is worn. Anyone else without the ring can't fire the gun. This would eliminate lots of accidental shootings and shootings as a result of the gun getting snagged from a holster.

We've been using gun powder and lead for a long time, maybe there is a new menacing weapon just over the horizon that will be worse than guns. You guys better start worrying about those. Yeah, like affordable mini rocket launchers or killer robots.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
I love all the anti-gun liberals who get caught having illegal or legal guns for that matter. Shit, even Sarah Brady purchased a gun for her kid.

Smith & Wesson is working on some technology that fires the gun with an electronic trigger. The gun won't fire unless a special ring is worn. Anyone else without the ring can't fire the gun. This would eliminate lots of accidental shootings and shootings as a result of the gun getting snagged from a holster.

We've been using gun powder and lead for a long time, maybe there is a new menacing weapon just over the horizon that will be worse than guns. You guys better start worrying about those. Yeah, like affordable mini rocket launchers or killer robots.

Just out of curiosity Nitro, what restrictions, if any, should be placed on firearms owners.

[Nitro Express]

I think we should go back to the way it used to be. You can go down to the store and buy a gun or order them through the mail. No restrictions. Use of a gun in a crime will be punished by public crucifixtion on a main road. Everyone in the country will be requred to take a mandatory gun safety course whether they own a firearm or not, firearm saftey will also be taught in the schools. Gun accidents will be reduced with education. Drivers training will also be bundled with the gun safety courses since most Americans drive like shit and car accidents kill more people than guns do.

[aesop]

Originally posted by ashstralia
nah, just keep killing yourselves.

Yeah that white male NRA member on NRA member violence is really fucking out of hand :rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
I think we should go back to the way it used to be. You can go down to the store and buy a gun or order them through the mail. No restrictions. Use of a gun in a crime will be punished by public crucifixtion on a main road. Everyone in the country will be requred to take a mandatory gun safety course whether they own a firearm or not, firearm saftey will also be taught in the schools. Gun accidents will be reduced with education. Drivers training will also be bundled with the gun safety courses since most Americans drive like shit and car accidents kill more people than guns do.

So the insane, felons, and mentally defective can now buy guns with only the threat of execution?:rolleyes: The death penalty DOES NOT DETER crime. That's mostly fantasy.

[Jesterstar]

Anyone for Gun control is against DEMOCRACY end of story. Why don't any of you do any real research. Mindless Gun control tools like you guys are the reason that the population is so fucking weak.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
Anyone for Gun control is against DEMOCRACY end of story. Why don't any of you do any real research. Mindless Gun control tools like you guys are the reason that the population is so fucking weak.

Actually I think lack of education is a far greater problem.

[Igosplut]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So the insane, felons, and mentally defective can now buy guns with only the threat of execution?:rolleyes: The death penalty DOES NOT DETER crime. That's mostly fantasy.

Neither does gun laws. If you did your research, you'll find theres FAR more laws, both federal and state to state (MA alone has TWENTY TWO THOUSAND of 'em) governing the ownership of firearms.Only moral people follow laws so if somebody is out to kill another, no law in the world is going to help. Except the one that KEEPS them from doing it again.

Also, using the term "gun nut" implys that you consider Legal gun owners to be irresponsible at best, and crazy at worst.

[Jesterstar]

Since ford is a fucking retard and locked my relevent thread which was a differant topic than the other ones but he's to fucking stupid to realize. It was more on the philsophy of Democracy but whatever I am use to the fucking retarded mods pulling their bullshit. Here is the post in my now locked thread.

[Jesterstar]

I can't beleive the shit I am reading. Are you people so scared and afraid to live in real freedom that you really think regulatiing arms is the answer to keeping us safeR???

It's a fucking Joke. We already have a hard enough times to hold on our right to bare arms. Now they've condidtioned the Weak Minded Michel Moore watching revolutionaries that this is the way to go.

Dmocracy and freedom are negated when you start controling personal freedoms.

Pay attention to what is really going on. You people are fucking blind.

Hitler was a big fan of Gun Control. Need I say more???

[Igosplut]

Correct, the first thing Hitler did was disarm the general populas, the theory being it would make a safer country. It did...For him..

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by Igosplut
Correct, the first thing Hitler did was disarm the general populas, the theory being it would make a safer country. It did...For him..

We have bigger things to worry. Like getting JESTERSTAR threads locked even though they are not only of relevence but are in a differant topical direction.

These Ignorant fucks fall for the same tricks over and over again.

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
Since ford is a fucking retard and locked my relevent thread which was a differant topic than the other ones but he's to fucking stupid to realize. It was more on the philsophy of Democracy but whatever I am use to the fucking retarded mods pulling their bullshit. Here is the post in my now locked thread.

See? People still responded to your idea even though you didn't have a seperate thread for it.

Amazing how that works. ;)

[Nitro Express]

Giving a person a lethal injection and a painless death is not the same as crucifying them and letting them live in agonizing pain for hours if not days. It's how the Roman Empire dealt with their nutcase insurgients and it was quite effective. We live in a day and age where all you have to do is claim insanity and get a lower punishment. Shit, it like that Don who runs the Genovese family in new york who walks around in his bathrob mumbling to himself.

[Nitro Express]

As I watch the United States slowly evolving into lawlessness I wonder why people waste so much energy debating laws. It's an impotent country who does not throw corporate crooks into jail or arrest illegal alliens and deport them. You cannot enforce some of the laws and let others slide and have any credability. People are losing faith in the system and that is the problem right there. Everyone is breaking a law somewhere and we want more? Oh please tell me you didn't speed today or you declared the money you won in the poker game friday night on your tax return.

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
As I watch the United States slowly evolving into lawlessness I wonder why people waste so much energy debating laws. It's an impotent country who does not throw corporate crooks into jail or arrest illegal alliens and deport them. You cannot enforce some of the laws and let others slide and have any credability. People are losing faith in the system and that is the problem right there. Everyone is breaking a law somewhere and we want more? Oh please tell me you didn't speed today or you declared the money you won in the poker game friday night on your tax return.

Nitro my friend your Poetic and Epic in the way you post. /incredible. I don't have to read the whole thing to know what your saying. Brilliant.

[The Scatologist]

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder.

Has it ever occured to you that maybe some people just wanna be free from being scared of being Dimebaged?


Also, if you all people for gun enforcement are pussies, I dare you to try to fight some of them hand to hand. Guns are for pussies who need to shoot from a distance.