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Nickdfresh
04-06-2005, 04:52 PM
U.S. Copter Crash Kills 16 in Afghanistan
Wednesday, April 6, 2005 3:41 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By STEPHEN GRAHAM

A U.S. military helicopter returning from a mission smashed into the southern Afghan desert Wednesday, killing at least 16 people in the deadliest military crash since the fall of the Taliban in late 2001. An Afghan official said most of the dead appeared to be Americans.

The CH-47 Chinook was returning to the U.S. base at Bagram from a mission in the militant-plagued south when it went down near Ghazni city, 80 miles southwest of the capital, Kabul.

"Indications are it was bad weather and that there were no survivors," said a U.S. spokeswoman, Lt. Cindy Moore. An Afghan official said there were no signs the craft was shot down.

A U.S. military statement said 16 deaths had been confirmed and two other people listed on the flight manifest were "unaccounted for" when the recovery operation was suspended at nightfall.

U.S. officials said the four crew members killed were Americans, but declined to give the nationalities of the passengers. The names of the victims were being withheld pending notification of next of kin.

Moore said the transport helicopter was returning from a "routine mission" when controllers lost radio contact. A second Chinook made it safely back to the sprawling base north of Kabul.

Associated Press Television News footage showed dozens of Afghan security forces and officials scurrying round burning wreckage. Strong winds that had whipped thick dust into the darkened sky fanned the flames.

Abdul Rahman Sarjang, the chief of police in Ghazni, said the helicopter crached about 2:30 p.m. near a brick factory 3 miles outside the city and burst into flames. U.S. troops rushed to cordon off the area, he said.

Sarjang said he saw nine bodies. "They were all wearing American uniforms and they were all dead," he told The Associated Press by cell phone from the crash site.

Sarjang said that the weather was cloudy with strong winds and that witnesses reported one of the helicopter's two rotors looked damaged before it hit the ground. He said he saw no sign of enemy fire, and militants issued no immediate claim of responsibility

According to U.S. Department of Defense statistics, at least 122 American soldiers had died before Wednesday's incident in and around Afghanistan since Operation Enduring Freedom, the U.S.-led war on terrorism, began after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

Accidents have proven almost as deadly as attacks from Taliban-led insurgents, including a string of helicopter crashes and explosions caused by mines and munitions left over from the country's long wars.

The previous worst incident in Afghanistan was an accidental explosion at an arms dump in Ghazni province that killed eight American soldiers in January 2004.

Most recently, four U.S. soldiers died when a land mine exploded under their vehicle south of Kabul on March 26.

Last November, six Americans _ three civilian crew members and three U.S. soldiers _ died when their plane crashed in the Hindu Kush mountains. The military's last fatal helicopter crash occurred a month earlier when a pilot was killed in the west of the country.

About 17,000 U.S. soldiers are in Afghanistan battling a Taliban-led insurgency and training a new Afghan army.

The top U.S. commander here, Lt. Gen. David Barno, told AP on Tuesday that the military would also now train Afghan police and provide intelligence to Afghan forces battling the country's rampant drug industry.

Barno said the size of the U.S. force would be reviewed after Afghan parliamentary elections in September.

While U.S. forces focus on the south and east, the Afghan capital has also been shaken by a string of security incidents.

Kabul police said Wednesday they had arrested a man wanted for questioning in the March 7 killing of a British development worker as well as the kidnapping of three U.N. workers last year. The three were seized in October and released unharmed a month later.

The suspect was detained after a gunfight in the capital in which a taxi driver was killed and two police officers injured, the police chief, Gen. Akram Khakrezwal, said.

www.adelphia.net/news/read.php?ps=1018&id=11827356

Nitro Express
04-07-2005, 02:38 AM
I was going to go into the Air Guard as a piolet but I'm red green color blind and they wouldn't accept me. I was told the army and national guard were always looking for helecopter piolets and my color blindness wouldn't be an issue with them.

I wasn't interested in flying helecopters. That was way back in 1994. Now I look at all the helecopters lost since then and really wonder if I would have gone down if I would have signed up. Shit, they lost a whole battalion of Apaches taking Iraq. They now have decided to scrap the Comanche program since helecopters are just too vunerable to shoulder fired missles.

The problem with the helecopters is ones like the Chinook are 25+ years old. The sand over in the middle east is like talcum powder, it wreaks havoc on helecopters especially. plus, the workload on the helecopters is really heavy.

We will continue to loose many more helecopters. Shit we did in Vietnam as well.

ashstralia
04-07-2005, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Nitro Express
The problem with the helecopters is ones like the Chinook are 25+ years old. The sand over in the middle east is like talcum powder, it wreaks havoc on helecopters especially.

exactly, nitro.

and they don't glide very well, either.
the maintenance on a chopper has to
be constant and vigilant.

obv. it's being neglected,
because these pilots know what they're doing.

Mishar_McLeud
04-07-2005, 10:48 AM
That're sad news :(. I've catched it quick on TV in the morning, and been wondering what caused the crash. It's too bad if it was a technical problem, but I've been told by my dad, who was a chopper pilot for over 2 decades, that in 90% it's always a human factor.

Of course helicopters are vulnerable, as well as are tanks, AMVs and any other ground units. I don't think Commanche program was repealed because of that - it had to be more of a surveillance/spy chopper, not a heavy assaut/partol one. I haven't heard if the US military have reduced the production of Longbows for that matter.

Nitro Express
04-07-2005, 03:29 PM
Helecopters will never have the safety factor of a fixed wing aircraft. They are so complicated and there are so many moving parts it's simply mathmatical.

Being a good piolet is like anything else. The more you do it and your attitude increase your ability. I'm sure the military trains good piolets.

Hey, if you took a 30 year old car that was well maintained and drove it as much as these helecopters have to, you would have some breakdowns. It's just the nature of mechanical things.

War is dangerouse, you have as good of a chance of being killed by friendly fire or your own equipment as you do by being killed by the enemy.

Nitro Express
04-07-2005, 03:33 PM
My father in law worked for Boeing. He worked on the Commanche program before taking early retirement. The Commanche could fill sevral roles but it also was an attack helecopter that carried the weapons internally.

I know in fixed wing aircraft, 30% of the crashes are due to piolet error.

Nitro Express
04-07-2005, 03:35 PM
What the military has found is the attack helecopters have turned out to be a big dissapointment. but the A-10 Warthog aircraft have turned out to be better for the ground attack role. Helecopters will be fazed out and fixed wing planes will fill the void. They are working on pioletless drones for the air/ground attock role in the future.

Nickdfresh
04-07-2005, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by Nitro Express


Hey, if you took a 30 year old car that was well maintained and drove it as much as these helecopters have to, you would have some breakdowns. It's just the nature of mechanical things.


That's not necessarily true. The engines in these aircraft, as well as in tanks and trucks, are continually changed out and over hauled. While older equipment obviously needs to be replaced, that doesn't mean these are even the same aircraft (CH-47's) that flew in Vietnam.

I have friends that did helicopter maintainance during the cold war. They said when they changed the oil, it was as clean coming out as the stuff they put in.

The larger problem here is over-extended deployments in which it is harder and more expensive to fix and overhaul this stuff.

I think the Marines did a study on the old CH-46 Sea Kings and found that they have a relatively low accident rate. I'd rather fly on one of these:
http://cs21.net/skyphoto/helicopter/he-ch-46-1.jpg

Than one of these "NEW" pieces of shit:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22-osprey.jpg

For more info: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/v-22.htm

Mishar_McLeud
04-07-2005, 03:58 PM
Does anybody know whether hovercrafts are in development? I've heard while listening to standoff on Commanche when it was still "due" that this machine would be the last step before the military starts working on that brand new tech. I have no clue how the stuff should work apart from sci-fi flicks (which have slim to zero credit), but that could be a solution.

Nickdfresh
04-07-2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Mishar_McLeud
Does anybody know whether hovercrafts are in development? I've heard while listening to standoff on Commanche when it was still "due" that this machine would be the last step before the military starts working on that brand new tech. I have no clue how the stuff should work apart from sci-fi flicks (which have slim to zero credit), but that could be a solution.

I heard speculation from the aeronautical editor of JANES DEFENSE WEEKLY that he believes that the US has a new generation of "anti-gravity" aircraft, which are responsible for many of the UFO sightings in the American Southwest (Area 51). Any work on this would of course be top secret, but I don't think I believe this since I think we would have seen more of it by now.

Mishar_McLeud
04-07-2005, 04:09 PM
My head must be overloaded :S
I've ment "anti-grav" units, not hovercrafts or course.

Well they can have only few test models so far, plus you know nobody can transpass that sector in Nevada desert. Both U2 and B2 were tested there and all civil UFO-related reports from nearby areas were also considered as rumours.

Nickdfresh
04-07-2005, 07:52 PM
Check on the www.fas.org link, they have much open source on that stuff.