Ten Years Since a Good Christian Terrorist Killed 168 People, 19 of them Children!!

[Nickdfresh]

Way to protest abortion!

www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/19/bombing.anniversary.ap/index.html

Oklahoma City marks decade since bombing


Tuesday, April 19, 2005 Posted: 8:07 AM EDT (1207 GMT)

OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- A moment of silence, one second for each victim. On each chair, a yellow ribbon.

Political leaders, survivors and victims' family members will gather Tuesday for a ceremony at the site of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, 10 years after it was destroyed in the worst act of domestic terrorism in U.S. history.

Vice President Dick Cheney and former President Bill Clinton are scheduled to speak at the event commemorating the deadly attack. Clinton was president when Timothy McVeigh's truck bomb blew off the north side of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, killing 168 people and injuring hundreds more.

McVeigh was convicted of federal conspiracy and murder charges and executed on June 11, 2001. Conspirator Terry Nichols is serving multiple life sentences on federal and state charges.

Jenny Parsley, who seldom visits the memorial on the grounds of the destroyed federal office building, planned to attend Tuesday's ceremony. The memorial site consists of 168 chairs that represent each person who died in the blast.

"I knew most of the people killed," Parsley said. "I lost a lot of good friends, too many."

Her decision to go to work late on April 19, 1995, saved her from the blast that killed 35 people in the Housing and Urban Development office where Parsley was employed.

"My workday began at 7 a.m. and I had a doctor's appointment at 10 a.m., so I could have worked for almost three hours, but for some reason I decided to go in after my appointment," she said. "I got up early that morning and got dressed and got ready to go to work and just decided not to go."

McVeigh's fertilizer and fuel-oil bomb went off at 9:02 a.m. (10:02 a.m. ET).

Parsley, 57, was driving her car and noticed thick black smoke over downtown. She thought it was a fire at a tire plant until she turned on the radio and heard that it was the federal building.

She drove to her husband's office and discovered that her college-age son also was there. Both her husband and son thought she was in the building when the bomb exploded.

"They were crying," she said. "When I got there, I just fell apart."

Parsley and fellow employees returned to work at a different building in Oklahoma City. When the new federal building was dedicated last year, near the bombing site, Parsley took early retirement.

Joseph Allbaugh, the former director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, was chief of staff for then-Texas Gov. George Bush during the Oklahoma City bombing. Allbaugh, a Blackwell native who lived and worked in Oklahoma City for 17 years, said he lost a lot of friends in the bombing.

"Yes, it was a terrible day," he said. "We will always celebrate those 168 lives and you'll be glad to know the city and the state have rebounded ... Life does go on."

Jon Hansen, an assistant fire chief at the time of the blast, was preparing for a meeting at a fire station five blocks west of the federal building when the bomb went off.

"It shook our building," he said. "We looked to the east and saw an enormous mushroom cloud.

"We drove toward the building and I'll never forget how when we topped the hill with the sun low in the east, the street and sidewalks just glistened with broken glass."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Way to protest abortion!

www.cnn.com I always thought only brown-skinned, bearded turban-wearing dudes were terrorists!:confused: :confused:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
I always thought only brown-skinned, bearded turban-wearing dudes were terrorists!:confused: :confused:

They are Islamofascist Terrorists! Get it correct, Kraut. :rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
They are Christofascist Terrorists! Get it correct, Kraut. :rolleyes:

http://www.2dorks.com/gallery/2001/Tim/bubbye.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Now you're reaching, Nick. That doesn't even make sense. Quit copying my stuff, you uncreative fool. You're almost as inept as that Vanilla dude.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Now you're reaching, Nick. That doesn't even make sense. Quit copying my stuff, you uncreative fool. You're almost as inept as that Vanilla dude.

"Blah blah...fucking...blah! My stool is stuck in me this morning..."

How is that reaching? Are you implying that McVeigh was not motivated by his own vision of a just 'Christian Nation (for white Christians)?' Does this not make sense to you?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
"Blah blah...fucking...blah! My stool is stuck in me this morning..."

How is that reaching? Are you implying that McVeigh was not motivated by his own vision of a just 'Christian Nation (for white Christians)?' Does this not make sense to you?

No, it makes absolutely no fucking sense.

McVeigh and Nichols sought revenge for the governments (Clintons) bungling of the Waco tragedy. It's that simple. McVeigh was no more a Christian than you are.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

FOCUS: BILL McVEIGH
Torn by a tragic memory
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With a heavy heart, father of Oklahoma City bomber marks emotional milestone
By LOU MICHEL and DAN HERBECK
News Staff Reporters
4/19/2005
Harry Scull Jr./Buffalo News
Bill McVeigh, finding solace in the privacy of his backyard vegetable garden and in being of service to others, is only too aware that there is no way he can ease the pain of what happened in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995.

Bill McVeigh will try to live today as if it were just another day.

It won't be easy.

He might spend some time logging onto the Internet and playing a favorite card game - hearts - with people who have no idea that he is the father of America's worst homegrown terrorist.

Today marks the 10th anniversary since his son, Timothy J. McVeigh, embraced infamy and became the Oklahoma City bomber.


Bill McVeigh has carried this burden every day since then.

"I still don't approve of anything he did," he said in condemning his son's crime and distancing himself from it.

And a decade later, the father who proudly flies the American flag in the front yard of his Niagara County home also doesn't comprehend why his son felt driven to attack the U.S. government.

"I just don't understand it," he said in a recent interview. "I have nothing against the government. We have our problems, but it is the best country in the world. I don't think like Timmy, and I hope people realize that."

The older McVeigh remains the same quiet, reticent man the world first saw on April 21, 1995, as FBI agents escorted him from his modest ranch house in Pendleton two days after the bombing.

That day, the world also caught its first look at Timothy McVeigh, who glared at an angry crowd as he was taken out of Noble County Courthouse shackled and wearing a bright orange jumpsuit.

When Bill McVeigh watched those images on television, he found himself looking into the face of a young man who was not the same Tim McVeigh he had reared.

"I think about Tim all the time," Bill McVeigh said, but his thoughts focus on the son he knew before the bombing, before his anger at the government over Ruby Ridge and Waco turned him into terrorist.

Bill McVeigh chooses to remember the young man who was always willing to help him with home repairs or invite all the neighborhood kids over for a swim in the backyard pool when the McVeigh family was still together and lived on Meyer Road.

It's as if, in Bill McVeigh's mind, the caring "Timmy" he knew as a boy lives on.

"The other day, I was thinking he's going to be 37 years old soon," he said of his son's birthday, April 23.




Feels no bitterness
But Bill McVeigh also knows the reality of what his son became and said it numbs him to think that his own flesh and blood could turn so fanatical that he would be driven to kill innocent people.

McVeigh said he can scarcely bring himself to talk about the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, which killed 168 people and injured hundreds.

"I wish it never happened," the 65-year-old father said, his voice trailing off as he sat in his living room.

He built the house years ago, after the breakup of his marriage to the former Mildred "Mickey" Hill, so that his son could continue at Starpoint High School.

McVeigh and his wife divorced in 1986, after splitting up years earlier when Tim was a teenager. Hill, who has suffered three nervous breakdowns since the bombing, has lived in Florida for years.

Timothy McVeigh's younger sister, Jennifer, works as a teacher in North Carolina and avoids the spotlight. His older sister, Patricia, has lived in the South since before the bombing and has never spoken publicly about the crime.

On June 11, 2001, 14 hours after the government executed his then 33-year-old son, Bill McVeigh told The Buffalo News that he felt no bitterness toward the government. Although opposed to the death penalty, the grieving father said he understood that the government did what it felt was necessary.

And when the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks occurred, three months after his son's execution by lethal injection, Bill McVeigh said he was "hurt and angry. I'm an American."

His son, in interviews for the book "American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing," in which he detailed how he carried out the attack, said he had contemplated the aftermath of the bombing and how it would affect his father.

Bill McVeigh, his son predicted, would survive because of a strong support network. The prediction proved true. But Bill McVeigh's life, not unlike the lives of the thousands of people in Oklahoma City, was irrevocably changed.

The father does not even know where his son's ashes were spread after he was cremated, following the execution at the federal prison in Terre Haute, Ind. Timothy McVeigh's final wish was that his attorneys secretly dispose of his ashes to avoid desecration of the site.

"People ask me, but I don't know," Bill McVeigh said. "I wish I knew."




Thinks about victims
If anything, Bill McVeigh has more deeply committed himself to the service of others. The hulking 6-foot, 2-inch man, who walks with a halting gait, helps run two golf leagues and assists in running a bowling league.

He also attends weekly Mass at Good Shepherd Catholic Church, where he helps with bingo.

"Bill doesn't get discouraged, never discouraged," said his pastor, Monsignor Paul J. Belzer. "He knows what he has to do, and he does it with a smile."

On his front lawn, Bill McVeigh proudly flies an American flag in the warmer months.

"I'll probably start flying the flag around May 1st, when it gets nice out. I go through two flags a year. The wind whips the heck out of them," he said, his mop of reddish brown hair itself appearing windblown.

But it is his backyard vegetable garden that he looks forward to the most in the spring and summer.

"I can't wait to get out there. I've already got seeds and I might be able to plant my peas and onions by the end of April," he said of the 50-by-70-foot plot of land that he has scaled back in recent years because of back problems.

When the garden is in full bloom, Bill McVeigh harvests every two days and makes his rounds delivering fresh produce to his neighbors and friends.

"I have some new people on my list," he said. "I hate to see the vegetables go to waste."

There is, however, something Bill McVeigh relishes even more than his lifelong devotion to gardening - his privacy.

That has been slow to return since the bombing.

Some of his happiest times occur when he meets people who have no idea who he is.

That happens when he goes out of town on an occasional vacation down south or to Las Vegas. Or when he plays card games over the Internet on a home computer he bought two years ago.

"I play hearts all the time with people all over the world, and no one knows who I am," he said. "It's great, and I'm not going to tell them who I am. It's the only way to have it."

In Oklahoma City, Bud Welch, whose daughter perished in the bombing, said he understands Bill McVeigh's need for anonymity.

"I look at this man Bill McVeigh and I see a man who is more of a victim than even I am," Welch said. "When I go out to talk to people, I can tell them how proud I am of my Julie-Marie. Poor Bill probably doesn't even tell people he had a son."

Several survivors of the bombing interviewed last week said they have nothing but compassion for Bill McVeigh and others in the McVeigh family.

Back in the Lockport area, Bill McVeigh said that people still recognize him as the father of the bomber and that he takes it in stride.

"Everybody knows me here, but you have to understand that I knew half of Pendleton and Lockport before it happened," he said.

Even though it is something he would rather not discuss, Bill McVeigh said, he often thinks about the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing.

"I think about them. I feel deep sympathy for them," he said, adding that he also realizes that there is nothing he can do to make things different.

So today, Bill McVeigh intends to keep a doctor's appointment he made months ago, unaware that it was the 10th anniversary of the bombing.

He said he will live today as if it were any other day, "doing the same old stuff."

But in his heart, Bill McVeigh said, he knows that no day has or ever will be the same since his son drove up in front of the Murrah Building and detonated a 7,000-pound truck bomb that ripped apart so many lives.

His only hope, he said, is that he can be left alone to live a quiet, peaceful life.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20050419/1073508.asp

e-mail: lmichel@buffnews.com
and dherbeck@buffnews.com

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No, it makes absolutely no fucking sense.

McVeigh and Nichols sought revenge for the governments (Clintons) bungling of the Waco tragedy. It's that simple. McVeigh was no more a Christian than you are.

:gulp:

He also sought revenge for the BCE's bungling of Ruby Ridge, where the Bush FBI shot the wife of a white supremacist gun dealer.

But the fact is that McVeigh, like Eric Rudolph and Randall Terry, claimed to be a "Christian" and justified his crimes in the name of Jesus. And he was literally a fascist, as he has been linked to several white supremacist and militia groups.

You refer to Al Qaeda as "Islamofascists", yet the BCE's own official story states that several of the 9-11 hijackers spent their last night on earth getting drunk in a strip bar. Alcohol and nudity are two things which are forbidden in the Muslim religion, so apparently these guys didn't really take the teachings of Mohammad all that seriously. Just as McVeigh, Nichols, Rudolph, Terry, and others of their ilk don't operate under the teachings of Jesus Christ.

So if "Islamofascist" can be used to describe fake Muslims who murder and terrorize, then "Christofascist" would be valid for those who murder and terrorize while lying about being Christians. And of course we would have Judeofascists like Sharon as well. And just so Pinky doesn't feel left out, there's probably some Atheiofascists out there as well. Though killing and terrorizing in the name of nothing might seem kinda silly ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
...And of course we would have Judeofascists like Sharon as well. And just so Pinky doesn't feel left out, there's probably some Atheiofascists out there as well. Though killing and terrorizing in the name of nothing might seem kinda silly ;)

Joe Stalin would be the prototypical Atheiofascist.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
He also sought revenge for the BCE's bungling of Ruby Ridge, where the Bush FBI shot the wife of a white supremacist gun dealer.

But the fact is that McVeigh, like Eric Rudolph and Randall Terry, claimed to be a "Christian" and justified his crimes in the name of Jesus. And he was literally a fascist, as he has been linked to several white supremacist and militia groups.

You refer to Al Qaeda as "Islamofascists", yet the BCE's own official story states that several of the 9-11 hijackers spent their last night on earth getting drunk in a strip bar. Alcohol and nudity are two things which are forbidden in the Muslim religion, so apparently these guys didn't really take the teachings of Mohammad all that seriously. Just as McVeigh, Nichols, Rudolph, Terry, and others of their ilk don't operate under the teachings of Jesus Christ.

So if "Islamofascist" can be used to describe fake Muslims who murder and terrorize, then "Christofascist" would be valid for those who murder and terrorize while lying about being Christians. And of course we would have Judeofascists like Sharon as well. And just so Pinky doesn't feel left out, there's probably some Atheiofascists out there as well. Though killing and terrorizing in the name of nothing might seem kinda silly ;)

FORD, you may actually have a point there. Cheers. :gulp:

[fanofdave]

mcveigh wasn't a christian, he was just a fucking loser.
there are plenty of "fuck ups" in this world that claim to
be christians or deeply religious. he wasn't doing GOD's
work, he was doing his own evil, plain and simple.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by fanofdave
mcveigh wasn't a christian, he was just a fucking loser.
there are plenty of "fuck ups" in this world that claim to
be christians or deeply religious. he wasn't doing GOD's
work, he was doing his own evil, plain and simple.

I couldn't agree more. But unfortunately some of those 'fuck-ups' have sway in the Republican party!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by fanofdave
mcveigh wasn't a christian, he was just a fucking loser.
there are plenty of "fuck ups" in this world that claim to
be christians or deeply religious. he wasn't doing GOD's
work, he was doing his own evil, plain and simple. THERE IS NO GOD!

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
THERE IS NO GOD!

YES THERE IS, MY SON!!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
YES THERE IS, MY SON!! I won´t believe this before you serve me the best frozen strawberry margerita ever!

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
I won´t believe this before you serve me the best frozen strawberry margerita ever!

In order to do that, ye would need to be in Heaven, My son.

And to do that, ye must believe :)

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
In order to do that, ye would need to be in Heaven, My son.

And to do that, ye must believe :) NO DEAL!

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
NO DEAL!

Then I guess ye will end up in Hell, where Satan will serve you warm American beer, warm diet Pepsi, and Cabo Wabo Tequila for eternity.:(

It is thy choice, My son.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Then I guess ye will end up in Hell, where Satan will serve you warm American beer, warm diet Pepsi, and Cabo Wabo Tequila for eternity.:(

It is thy choice, My son. Damn, this is a hard one!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Then I guess ye will end up in Hell, where Satan will serve you warm American beer, warm diet Pepsi, and Cabo Wabo Tequila for eternity.:(

It is thy choice, My son.

All hail SATAN!

[Nitro Express]

Good attempt at trying to smear Christians with the same brush at Timothy McVieh asshole! The Oklahoma City bombing was simply payback for the ATF and FBI abuses in Waco and Ruby Ridge. There was a regional office of the ATF in that building and Timothy was going to make an impression.

Yes it was terrorism battling abuses by the ATF and FBI. It had nothing to do with Christianity.

The FBI shot Randy Weavers wife in cold blood, the FBI and ATF burned up the Branch Dividians with their smoke grenades. Both agencies were out of control in both cases; eventhough they were going after fruitcakes.

Timothy was a fruitcake blowing up the offices of the govt. fruitcakes who abused and killed fruitcakes.

If there is anything tied to Timothy McViegh it's fruitcake.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
Good attempt at trying to smear Christians with the same brush at Timothy McVieh asshole! The Oklahoma City bombing was simply payback for the ATF and FBI abuses in Waco and Ruby Ridge. There was a regional office of the ATF in that building and Timothy was going to make an impression.

NOT CHRISTIANS! All religious/anti-religious extremists! As FORD posted and I will embellish; Christiofascists, Judiofascists, Buddofascists, Tsintofascists, Atheiofascists, Secular Humofascists, Agnostofascists, Hindofascists, Siekofascists, and yes, Islamofascists! I was attacking the vain, arrogant bastards that feel that they have such a corner of the market on what is essentially unverifiable truth/myth! Pay back? Bin Laden said 9/11 was payback for the infidels encroachment on their holy-lands (the stationing of Western forces in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War). Did the FBI and ATF really get any payback? Frankly you seem to have a little bit of sympathy for him!


Yes it was terrorism battling abuses by the ATF and FBI. It had nothing to do with Christianity.

Careful, you are making him sound like a bit of a martyr now! McVeigh also claimed his experiences in the Gulf War and disillusionment with the United States Gov't and US Army after killing Iraqi soldiers also made him "do it!" Why do you leave those motivational factors out? McVeigh felt he was cheated out of his chance to join the Green Berets, another factor that some point to as a motivating factor for the attack.


The FBI shot Randy Weavers wife in cold blood, the FBI and ATF burned up the Branch Dividians with their smoke grenades. Both agencies were out of control in both cases; eventhough they were going after fruitcakes.


Fuck Randy Weaver! He was a NAZI cunt that continually threatened his neighbors with his arsenal. The Branch Dividians, I am not really sure what the point was there other than some 'conservatives' apparently feel that if you gather enough assault rifles and followers in your cult, one should be able to act with impunity freely molesting children and violating the 'laws on the books' the NRA supposedly wants enforced! Of course, if David Koresh had proclaimed he was for Satan and not Jesus, his death, and everyone elses in that compound, would have been celebrated by the Christian-Right! What was the ATF/FBI supposed to have done in that case?


Timothy was a fruitcake blowing up the offices of the govt. fruitcakes who abused and killed fruitcakes.

If there is anything tied to Timothy McViegh it's fruitcake.

Fruitcake for sure; and the belief that his slaughtering of innocents was justified by God!

[Warham]

Can we stop with using wide brush strokes here?

Saying McVeigh was following his so-called Christian beliefs is like saying Adolf Hitler was doing God's work. It's bullshit.

Christianity is the only major belief that is being attacked at will nowadays in the media. You couldn't do that to the beliefs or followers of Muslim, Jews, or Buddhists without being un-PC. But you can attack Jesus all you want. It's definately a sign of the times.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Can we stop with using wide brush strokes here?

Saying McVeigh was following his so-called Christian beliefs is like saying Adolf Hitler was doing God's work. It's bullshit.

McVeigh was following what he perceived to be his Christian beliefs and that what he was doing was somehow a means toward a greater good. My point is that just because you believe something does not make it of God.


Christianity is the only major belief system that is being attacked at will nowadays in the media. You couldn't do that to the beliefs or followers of Muslim, Jews, or Buddhists without being un-PC. But you can attack Jesus all you want. It's definitely a sign of the times.

Ahaha! You guys have done nothing but attack the beliefs of Islamofascists! Am I indeed 'the media?' Am I really 'attacking Christian beliefs?' Think about it. We're talking about assholes that set off bombs and kill children to protest the killing of children. I don't remember much about my CCD Bible studies, but I think that kind of behavior was expressly discouraged.

[Warham]

Didn't say you were. I was talking about the media and how I perceive how they treat Christianity as opposed to Islam or Judaism, etc.

I have never, I repeat, NEVER attacked Muslims. And there's not a post on this forum that anyone can dredge up from last April where I have.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Didn't say you were. I was talking about the media and how I perceive how they treat Christianity as opposed to Islam or Judaism, etc.

It's the dominant religion, I seriously doubt there is much danger of Christianity being destroyed, I'd say outright commercialism, pedophile priests and the ensuing years of cover-up, and phoney televangelists 'from the ole' time gospel hour have done far more harm than the media.

ANd just take a second to imagine yourself to be a Marionite Christian in Egypt or Lebanon...




I have never, I repeat, NEVER attacked Muslims. And there's not a post on this forum that anyone can dredge up from last April where I have.

Okay, I'll take you at your word on that. But some have, including Ann Coulter.

[DrMaddVibe]

The word is fundamentalism.

2 entries found for Fundamentalism.
fun·da·men·tal·ism Audio pronunciation of "Fundamentalism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
1. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.

funda·mental·ist adj. & n.
funda·mental·istic adj.

[Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Fundamentalism

n : the interpretation of every word in the sacred texts as literal truth


Anything taken to that level is wrong. ANYTHING!

The post title is a slam as it was designed. Anti-Christian. There's no other explanation. McVeigh displayed no remorse for his actions and took with him to the grave everything he knew about the bombing plot.

Nichols is still keeping his trap shut but they've linked him to the Phillipines and meetings with Yousef.

Nothing Christian about this here. An apology is in order.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh

Ahaha! You guys have done nothing but attack the beliefs of Islamofascists! Am I indeed 'the media?' Am I really 'attacking Christian beliefs?' Think about it. We're talking about assholes that set off bombs and kill children to protest the killing of children. I don't remember much about my CCD Bible studies, but I think that kind of behavior was expressly discouraged.

I know you directed this at Warham but I'll respond at this little tidbit also.

Timothy McVeigh was no Christian. Neither was Eric Rudolf. Both used Christianity as a "cover" to spread their hate and violence and, ultimately, to kill on a massive scale.

Mohammed Atta WAS a Muslim. There is no denying that. He was also a terrorist. Was he using Islam in the same way McVeigh and Rudolf were using Christianity? Possibly, but we'll never know since he cremated himself on 9/11. However, what we do know is there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of followers (maybe thousands) of that religion willing to do what Atta did. You cannot say that of Christianity.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I know you directed this at Warham but I'll respond at this little tidbit also.



Actually, I meant it to be directed towards ELVIS more so than anybody. I retract any connotation that WARHAM said anything directly of the kind. But ELVIS seems to have left the message board, or is otherwise indisposed.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe


...

The post title is a slam as it was designed. Anti-Christian. There's no other explanation. McVeigh displayed no remorse for his actions and took with him to the grave everything he knew about the bombing plot.

Nichols is still keeping his trap shut but they've linked him to the Phillipines and meetings with Yousef.

That's a conspiracy theory that has been discounted by the FBI, nevertheless, I try to keep an open mind.


Nothing Christian about this here. An apology is in order.

You're damn right there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN ABOUT IT! No apology is in order, and none will be given, since I was not attacking Christianity, just a few pseudo-Christians! Just like I hate the pseudo-Muslims that rammed the Twin Towers on 9/11!

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian

Mohammed Atta WAS a Muslim. There is no denying that. He was also a terrorist. Was he using Islam in the same way McVeigh and Rudolf were using Christianity? Possibly, but we'll never know since he cremated himself on 9/11. However, what we do know is there are literally dozens, if not hundreds, of followers (maybe thousands) of that religion willing to do what Atta did. You cannot say that of Christianity.

Yes you can. Mc Veigh and Rudolph were sincere in their beliefs, as fucked up as they are. Mc Veigh died for his agenda, even if it was at the end of a federal government needle, and Rudolph could have easily blown himself up with one of his bombs or been shot by the feds when he was caught. There was a wacko named Paul Hill, a right wing minister who shot up abortion clinics and got the death penalty for it. He never apologized for his actions. And did you get a good look at that insane mob that was hanging around outside that Florida hospice a few weeks ago? Any one of those people would have murdered a judge, a doctor, or Michael Schiavo himself if Randall Terrorist had given the order. And every last one of them would have told you that "Jesus" wanted them to do it.

You and I may know that has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ, but these fucking wackos believe otherwise. And your pinup "girl" Anndy Coulter is one of them, BTW.

[Warham]

Yeah, that mob was really insane, praying and holding up signs.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, did you see the folks who tried to bring her water? Unreal how they would walk up to the entrance, and then have the audacity to drop to their knees voluntarily in front of the cops so they could slap the cuffs on!

You would have thought if they were some insane mob, they would have tried to pull out knives or beer bottles and engaged the cops in a more reckless manner!

[FORD]

BTW, the corporate media isn't going out of their way to mention this, but apparently the autopsy/investigation/whatever into the Terri Schiavo case has been completed and her husband was cleared of all the bullshit accusations against him, i.e. he wasn't beating his wife's empty shell, shooting her with insulin, saying "I wish the bitch would die" or any of the other things the right wing was alleging to sell their cause.

How does it feel to know you believed these liars yet again?

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
]You're damn right there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN ABOUT IT!

So why put it in the title of this thread?

Hmmmmm?

[Warham]

How do they tell whether or not Michael called her a bitch by doing an autopsy on her? I guess medical research has gotten very advanced lately!

Yeah, I believe Felos when he said she looked more beautiful than ever after having no food or water for ten days.

:rolleyes:

[DrMaddVibe]

What McVeigh Meant
By Sam Francis

For all the fun and frolic that the nation’s media elite was enjoying over the now-delayed execution of Timothy McVeigh, there remains a nagging question in their minds about the Oklahoma City bombing that McVeigh now openly admits having committed: Why doesn’t this terrorist feel any guilt?

The question permeates the best-selling examination of the bombing and the bomber, American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing, by Buffalo News reporters Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, and it pops up at the end of the series of letters that McVeigh wrote to yet another journalist, Phil Bacharach, published in Esquire this month. (RealAudio interview with Bacharach, 30 min.)

Indeed, in both the book and the letters, McVeigh, guilty of the largest mass murder in American history, is also probably the cheeriest murderer in all of history. In the letters to Mr. Bacharach, he is mainly concerned about the movies and TV shows he’s been watching (his favorite seems to be Clint Eastwood’s “Unforgiven,” but he didn’t much care for “Seinfeld”).

As for the bombing, he shows no remorse, regret or guilt whatsoever; he’s referred to the day care center and the children he slaughtered in the Murrah Building as “collateral damage” and compared all his innocent victims to the imaginary bad guys of “Star Wars.” As Mr. Bacharach himself concludes his article, “It is beyond me to reconcile the Timothy McVeigh who murdered 168 people with the writer of these letters.... I do know one thing: In the written word, at least, he has not a whisper of conscience.”

Is that because McVeigh is a “psychopath” or “sociopath” or fits some other psycho-babble label invented to explain the unexplainable? Probably not. The psychiatrist who studied him in prison doesn’t use such terms but has no better explanation himself. Moreover, McVeigh has always claimed he didn’t know the day care center was there, that it wasn’t visible from the street, that he would have picked another target if he had known, that he tried to avoid harming non-government employees.

Most of that, of course, doesn’t help. Even if the day care center hadn’t been there, the bombing was still more brutal than most people could ever imagine committing. And McVeigh really didn’t try very hard to avoid “innocent” casualties. Any federal building is full of people who have nothing to do with the federal government McVeigh hates so much—taxpayers, crime victims, veterans, maybe even men like David Koresh of Waco or Randy Weaver of Ruby Ridge trying to extract a little justice for themselves. It didn’t matter very much to Timothy McVeigh that he blew these kinds of good people up along with the bureaucrats, and it doesn’t matter to him now.

But the reason it doesn’t matter to him ought to be pretty clear from what he tells Mr. Michel and Mr. Herbeck and from what he’s written to Fox News reporter Rita Cosby. Timothy McVeigh thinks of himself as a soldier fighting a war, and he has no more conscientious reaction to killing civilians, government employees or not, than Allied airplane pilots had in World War II when they firebombed Japanese and German civilians in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and Dresden, or American pilots when they hit civilian targets in Vietnam, Iraq and Serbia.

“Bombing the Murrah Federal Building,” McVeigh writes to Miss Cosby, “was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq or other nations. Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time and, subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment.”

“Clinical detachment” may not be an accurate description of how many American soldiers and airmen regard the killing of civilians, but it’s probably true that most who have killed civilians don’t agonize about it very much, and some (like those who to this day celebrate Arthur “Bomber” Harris, who led the murderous destruction of Dresden from the air two months before the end of World War II in Europe) go to their graves proud of it.

To understand why McVeigh feels no guilt for what he did is not to say that he shouldn’t. What he did was indeed an act of mass murder that deserves death, if not a good deal more than death. But the point he tried to make in his act of murder remains a serious one—that in modern warfare as practiced routinely and happily by the United States and other modern democracies and increasingly in law enforcement, civilian targets and civilian casualties are acceptable—if not often deliberately targeted—casualties. After we kill Timothy McVeigh, Americans should think hard about what he was trying to tell us.

COPYRIGHT 2001 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.

http://www.vdare.com/francis/mcveigh.htm

[DrMaddVibe]

McVeigh's Apr. 26 Letter to Fox News
Thursday, April 26, 2001
•
McVeigh Considered Assassination of Reno, Other Officials
•
With Article, McVeigh Describes Motivation for Bombing
The following letter has been authenticated and was sent to Fox News Correspondent Rita Cosby on April 26, 2001. The opening statement was a photocopied statement in McVeigh's writing. The question-and-answer section following it is clearly an original version in McVeigh's writing.

I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.

I chose to bomb a federal building because such an action served more purposes than other options. Foremost, the bombing was a retaliatory strike; a counter attack, for the cumulative raids (and subsequent violence and damage) that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years (including, but not limited to, Waco.) From the formation of such units as the FBI's "Hostage Rescue" and other assault teams amongst federal agencies during the '80's; culminating in the Waco incident, federal actions grew increasingly militaristic and violent, to the point where at Waco, our government - like the Chinese - was deploying tanks against its own citizens.

Knowledge of these multiple and ever-more aggressive raids across the country constituted an identifiable pattern of conduct within and by the federal government and amongst its various agencies. (see enclosed) For all intents and purposes, federal agents had become "soldiers" (using military training, tactics, techniques, equipment, language, dress, organization, and mindset) and they were escalating their behavior. Therefore, this bombing was also meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centers within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operation, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy.

Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. (see enclosed) Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah building was not personal , no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against government installations and their personnel.)

I hope that this clarification amply addresses your question.

Sincerely,

Timothy J. McVeigh

USP Terre Haute (IN)

Part II:

Q: What's the deal with you expressing interest in having your execution televised?

A: First, it has nothing to do with seeking to be on camera - just look at how few on-camera interviews I have done. Rather, it is to make a point: In the U.S. we show, on television, re-enactments of real executions; mock-fictional executions (in movies); and real executions from foreign countries - yet we are ashamed to show our own justice system in action. It is ironic that we show foreign executions, but are afraid to show identical domestic laws being carried out.

Q: What were some other options considered besides bombing? Who would you have targeted?

A: I waited two years from "Waco" for non-violent "checks and balances" built into our system to correct the abuse of power we were seeing in federal actions against citizens. The Executive; Legislative; and Judicial branches not only concluded that the government did nothing wrong (leaving the door open for "Waco" to happen again), they actually gave awards and bonus pay to those agents involved, and conversely, jailed the survivors of the Waco inferno after the jury wanted them set free.

Other "checks and balances" likewise proved futile: media awareness and outcry (the major media failed in its role as overseer of government ally); protest marches; letter campaigns; even small-budget video production; etc. - all failed to correct the abuse

When violent action thus became an option, I considered, among other things, a campaign of individual assassination, with "eligible" targets to include: Federal Judge Walter Smith (Waco trial); Lon Horiuchi (FBI sniper at Ruby Ridge); and Janet Reno (making her accept "full responsibility" in deed, not just word).

Q: Further describe motivations for bombing, and why you chose the bombing over other options.

A: See enclosed documents (he's referring to letter below)

Q. Summate feelings and lessons learned re: experience with legal system, and particularly, SJ.

A. Stephen Jones was appointed (in his own mind), not as a defense attorney, but as an "independent prosecutor" representing Oklahoma state (just prior to "representing" me, he worked as an advisor to the chief law enforcement officer for the state of OK - Governor Frank Keating.) and its interests; and secondary, looking out for his own interests (namely fame and fortune).

Having this experience under my belt, I would recommend that a defendant never trust his/her lawyer, for you can neither count on the attorney-client privilege, nor the ethical integrity of a given attorney.

(I have also learned what "cronyism" means, in actual effect.)

Q: Regarding to comments by AG; Keating

A: Most of the insults are meritless and quite often absurd, so I don't pay them much attention. Hitler? Absurd. (Geraldo Rivera uses this same analogy, so Keating and Ashcroft are in good company!) Coward? This label would make Orwell proud — it is double think at its finest. Collateral Damage? As an American news junkie; a military man; and a Gulf War veteran, where do they think I learned that? (It sure as hell wasn't Osama Bin Laden!)

For all else, I would refer you to my enclosed paper "Hypocrisy", and to Ramzi Yousef's statement to the court just prior to his sentencing. I filter all labels and insults thusly.

Q: Lessons?

A: Many foreign nations and peoples hate Americans for the very reasons most Americans loathe me. Think about that.

There are most likely many lessons in my story. Americans have the choice to try to learn from me (which is why I cooperated with the authors of American Terrorist), or they can choose to remain ignorant, and suffer the consequences.




Still maintain he's a Christian fundamentalist?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
So why put it in the title of this thread?

Hmmmmm?

Because it made you think didn't it! Extremists that misinterpret religion and morph it into a perverse ideology are sick no matter what their religious basis is! And that some so-called 'Christians' have more in common with terrorist that happen to be Muslims, or at least claim to be.

[DrMaddVibe]

No it didn't make me think.

It reiterated a belief that I've had of you for a long time now, and that is that you can't comprehend complex thinking. You're childish rants speak volumes for the fact that you don't think something through before you post it.

Even when you're wrong you maintain the notion that you're right.

On this issue you're dead wrong. McVeigh's actions through his own admission had nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God, religion or a higher power.

He viewed himself as the avenger of wrongs. He was the one to dispense justice and he carried his "mission" out.

I'd suggest you drop the religion benders too. If you can't believe or choose not to that's your business but to continue to raise them because they "push the buttons" of a few raises my eyebrows as to how insecure you must really be to reach that low to garner attention to yourself!

Being funny or attempting to joke with someone is one thing but you've been shown the error and you still want to stand by it.

You're wrong on this one all day long!

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
No it didn't make me think.

It reiterated a belief that I've had of you for a long time now, and that is that you can't comprehend complex thinking. Your childish rants speak volumes for the fact that you don't think something through before you post it.

Even when you're wrong you maintain the notion that you're right.

On this issue you're dead wrong. McVeigh's actions through his own admission had nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God, religion or a higher power.

He viewed himself as the avenger of wrongs. He was the one to dispense justice and he carried his "mission" out.

I'd suggest you drop the religion benders too. If you can't believe or choose not to that's your business but to continue to raise them because they "push the buttons" of a few raises my eyebrows as to how insecure you must really be to reach that low to garner attention to yourself!

Being funny or attempting to joke with someone is one thing but you've been shown the error and you still want to stand by it.

You're wrong on this one all day long!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
No it didn't make me think.

Oh I didn't huh? Then I guess you posted without thought! Business as usual.


It reiterated a belief that I've had of you for a long time now, and that is that you can't comprehend complex thinking. You're childish rants speak volumes for the fact that you don't think something through before you post it.

Ahahaha:D;) Pot--->Tea kettle ASSVIBE! Coming from the tool that informed me that we should not send aid to South Asia because his panties became wadded after seeing an Indonesian man wearing an osama tee-shirt, in a photo taken out of context! LOL You're really funny today Assvibe:D!


Even when you're wrong you maintain the notion that you're right.

Actually, prove me wrong rather than present pseudo-intellectual posturing and I will gladly admit it! Did I not just admit that WARHAM was correct that he never made egregious statements toward Muslims? Maybe you need a bit in the way of reading comprehension exercises. And again, I once proved you were a cold, heartless dick when it came to Tsunami relief, and all you did was continue to post your bullshit, now you dare to tell me what and what not to post? Suck it ASSVIBE! You're are nothing but a dolt and a babbling hypo'wit!


On this issue you're dead wrong. McVeigh's actions through his own admission had nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God, religion or a higher power.

McVeigh was 'avenging' the Christians killed in Waco by the 'evil Federal Government!' He was part of a larger movement that often does and had ties to people that did, irregardless, the title of the thread you seem to be so huffed up about (and I truly wonder why since you've stated in the past that you are not a pious Christian). McVeigh was born Catholic, he had ties to White Supremacists that often mask their hatred with religious demagoguery. Yes McVeigh was not a practicing Christian; but here, let me break down my higher thinking ASSVIBE and give you a little English lesson so many Americans seem to lack as opposed to, say, our British friends:


irony.
i·ro·ny ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)
n. pl. i·ro·nies

The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.

An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.

A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit1.

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
Dramatic irony.
Socratic irony.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[French ironie, from Old French, from Latin rna, from Greek eirneia, feigned ignorance, from eirn, dissembler, probably from eirein, to say. See wer-5 in Indo-European Roots.]

There you go ADDVIBE. I was actually saying McVeigh was a "BAD" Christian, not a real one! As opposed to if he had been a Muslim by birth and had performed a terrorist operation while not claiming any specific belief in the obtaining of 72 virgins in heaven for his martyrdom. In which case, I am sure you would have ranted on with your xenophobic tendencies, like for instance the Indonesians all got what they deserved because one fucking guy was wearing a OSAMA BIN LADEN tee, whatever dude! Time to up your meds!






He viewed himself as the avenger of wrongs. He was the one to dispense justice and he carried his "mission" out.

So did OSAMA BIN LADEN! The religious ALLAH and Martyrdom shit is purely secondary. It's about the fusion of religion with nationalism! But some on this board cannot see past that! OSAMA is as about as truly ISLAMIC as HITLER is a HINDU!


I'd suggest you drop the religion benders too. If you can't believe or choose not to that's your business but to continue to raise them because they "push the buttons" of a few raises my eyebrows as to how insecure you must really be to reach that low to garner attention to yourself!

AHAHAHA! POT->MOTHERFUCKING->TEA KETTLE! Fell free to push my buttons while I coddle your sensibilities pal! Am I wrong in wondering why one of the Neo Cons that doesn't seem to consider himself a diehard Christian is having a problem with this? Am I not supposed to debate on subjects that I feel strongly about?! I suggest that you don't tell me what to post.

Furthermore, am I supposed to ignore that Muslims are not the only religious fanatics that murder for their cause, McVeigh was NO ATHEIST dude!

I can site several examples like another douchebag from Buffalo; like James KOPP. or howabout Eric RUDOLF?


Being funny or attempting to joke with someone is one thing but you've been shown the error and you still want to stand by it.

You're wrong on this one all day long!

Oh my God dude, I can't believe that final statement! You were so filled with hate for the Indonesians/Sri Lankans/Somalians that you told me to post "more photos" of their festering corpses! DUDE, PISS OFF!

[DrMaddVibe]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Ahahaha:D;) Pot--->Tea kettle ASSVIBE! Coming from the tool that informed me that we should not send aid to South Asia because his panties became wadded after seeing an Indonesian man wearing an osama tee-shirt, with a photo taken out of context! LOL You're really funny today Assvibe:D!

Show me where I wrote that.

You can't!


Once again I refer you back to the defination that escapes the grasp of your mental capabilities...fundamentalism.

http://www.moviesoundclips.net/movies/knightstale/wanting.wav

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Ahahaha:D;) Pot--->Tea kettle ASSVIBE! Coming from the tool that informed me that we should not send aid to South Asia because his panties became wadded after seeing an Indonesian man wearing an osama tee-shirt, with a photo taken out of context! LOL You're really funny today Assvibe:D!


Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Show me where I wrote that.

You can't!


Once again I refer you back to the defination that escapes the grasp of your mental capabilities...fundamentalism.

You're correct, it's been deleted because you turned a donation thread into a flame war! My mental capacities? Take your medication ADDVIBE?

You said just that, or something close to it! You certainly had the sentimet down!

[DrMaddVibe]

A flame war?

Keep dreaming!

Please show me where McVeigh states his "inspiration" for the OKC bombing stems from his religious mantra.

He didn't.

You can't.

Hell, you can't even face reading the above posts to see what he actually said was his motive. That's how wrong you are on this.

This has NOTHING to do with any religion.

YOU'RE WRONG!

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Actually, prove me wrong rather than present pseudo-intellectual posturing and I will gladly admit it! [/B]

I did.

You didn't.


Thanks for backing up what I had stated earlier.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
A flame war?

Keep dreaming!

Please show me where McVeigh's "inspiration" for the OKC bombing stems from his religious mantra.

He didn't.

You can't.

Hell, you can't even face reading the above posts to see what he actually said was his motive. That's how wrong you are on this.

This has NOTHING to do with any religion.

YOU'RE WRONG!

Now who's having the problem with higher level cognitive though processes? I merely stated he was born a Christian as opposed to born Muslim! McVeigh is a liar as well, he contradicted his statements claiming he was not anti-Sematic even though he had ties to white supremacist groups! You yourself pointed out that there may have been a wider conspiracy (which is still hotly debated) involving Al-Qaida. You failed to mention it is far more likely McVeigh was connected to the (neo-NAZI) ARYAN REPUBLICAN ARMY! And I never thought his motivations were cut an dry Christian, but his interviews are largely bullshit fests made to make himself sound more palatable to his audience.

"The Turner Diaries" was his primary catalyst! Does he mention that in his interviews? NO! Maybe you were duped by his 'founding fathers/federal government out of control' crap! But the man's a liar and a murder, and his acts certainly do have a, flawed, quasi-religious dimension because the "Turner Diaries" expoused a "Whites Only Christian Homeland" style mentality.

McVeigh was too uneducated and driven by anger to articulate this much further. But the ideas behind his acts have roots in racism and anti-Semitism justified by pseudo-Christian propaganda? Did not slave-owners use the bible to justify slavery?

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I merely stated he was born a Christian as opposed to born Muslim!

I could care less. It has nothing to do with religion.

What part of that don't you understand?

Slapping the word Christian in the title of this thread doesn't make what you say right about him.

And even if it was linked to religion...he would be a FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN, which if we were all paying attention, know by now that it's WRONG!

And...from your last post...what's so Christian about the way he conducted himself?

[Warham]

The thread title was worded poorly.

Nobody that's conservative here would say...

"Three Years Since Good Muslim Terrorists Killed 3,000 People, all of them by ramming two planes through two buildings!!"

[DrMaddVibe]

Oh but watch...he'll defend it to his last breath!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
No it didn't make me think.

It reiterated a belief that I've had of you for a long time now, and that is that you can't comprehend complex thinking. Your childish rants speak volumes for the fact that you don't think something through before you post it.

Even when you're wrong you maintain the notion that you're right.

On this issue you're dead wrong. McVeigh's actions through his own admission had nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God, religion or a higher power.

He viewed himself as the avenger of wrongs. He was the one to dispense justice and he carried his "mission" out.

I'd suggest you drop the religion benders too. If you can't believe or choose not to that's your business but to continue to raise them because they "push the buttons" of a few raises my eyebrows as to how insecure you must really be to reach that low to garner attention to yourself!

Being funny or attempting to joke with someone is one thing but you've been shown the error and you still want to stand by it.

You're wrong on this one all day long!

This was so good it needs to be posted again. Cheers. :gulp:

[DrMaddVibe]

Back at ya!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
The thread title was worded poorly.

Nobody that's conservative here would say...

"Three Years Since Good Muslim Terrorists Killed 3,000 People, all of them by ramming two planes through two buildings!!"

Some just used the term "Islamofacists." (BBB)

No, but the following works, perhaps I should have used quotes:

Three Years Since "Good" Muslim Terrorists Killed 3,000 People, all of them by ramming two planes through two buildings!!

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No, but the following works, perhaps I should have used quotes:

Three Years Since "Good" Muslim Terrorists Killed 3,000 People, all of them by ramming two planes through two buildings!!

Thanks AGAIN for proving what I said about you!

Remove all doubt.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Thanks AGAIN for proving what I said about you!

Remove all doubt.

You're welcome! Care to actually refute any points or can't you cut an paste anything from the 'Turner Diaries?"

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
This was so good it needs to be posted again. Cheers. :gulp:

Must be "God's will!";)

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
You're welcome! Care to actually refute any points or can't you cut an paste anything from the 'Turner Diaries?"

There's nothing to refute.

So now its not because he's a Christian, its because he read the "Turner Diaries" that he set in motion the OKC? Life imitating art?

Then you'd have to change the title of the thread to read..."Ten Years Since A Reader With Racist Tendancies Killed 168 People, 19 Of Them Children"...you haven't bothered to change this one or even admit how stupid it was of you to put that there in the 1st place!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
There's nothing to refute.

So now its not because he's a Christian, its because he read the "Turner Diaries" that he set in motion the OKC? Life imitating art?

Life inspired by (shitty) art! Actually on a serious note, I have to read the fucking piece of shit 'novel.'



Then you'd have to change the title of the thread to read..."Ten Years Since A Reader With Racist Tendancies Killed 168 People, 19 Of Them Children"...you haven't bothered to change this one or even admit how stupid it was of you to put that there in the 1st place!

True, I can't pin everything that McVeigh believed in a short, catchy title; but I can tell you it was far more than he stated in the interviews you present and I've read of him elsewhere.

And I will admit that I regret people thought I was attacking Christians, and Christianity in general. But, being a "lousy Catholic" (Ernest Hemingway "The Sun ALso Rises"), do I get pissed when people here paint the Catholic Church filled with Pedophile Priests...no! I've know some pretty good fuckin' guys who were Priests! There is a lot of a "wide swath being painted" the the brush of over-generalizations in this forum! Why am I the only one attacked for it, and why don't the attacks look at themselves instead of finger pointing. I never said McVeigh was a good or just Christian. But in fact he was born Catholic and was influence by the nebulous ideas of extremist hate masked in religion, whether he admits it or not (he was obviously protecting others in those interviews!)

'Islamiscists,' 'Islamofascists,' 'Islamic extremists' are routinely used to describe terrorists (in the media) who are born Muslim! In fact, I've tried to explain before that not all muslim terrorists believe in the 'Islamic Fundamentalist' agenda. Their anti-Sematic philosophy is instead rooted in Pan-Arab Nationalism (ex. The PLO, The Baath Party); yet (funny) cartoons are still posted here showing Yassar Arafat wondering where his '72 virgins' are when he arrives in hell even though there is little chance he ever believed in such.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Life inspired by (shitty) art! Actually on a serious note, I have to read the fucking piece of shit 'novel.'



True, I can't pin everything that McVeigh believed in a short, catchy title; but I can tell you it was far more than he stated in the interviews you present and I've read of him elsewhere.

And I will admit that I regret people thought I was attacking Christians, and Christianity in general. But, being a "lousy Catholic" (Ernest Hemingway "The Sun ALso Rises"), do I get pissed when people here paint the Catholic Church filled with Pedophile Priests...no! I've know some pretty good fuckin' guys who were Priests! There is a lot of a "wide swath being painted" the the brush of over-generalizations in this forum! Why am I the only one attacked for it, and why don't the attacks look at themselves instead of finger pointing. I never said McVeigh was a good or just Christian. But in fact he was born Catholic and was influence by the nebulous ideas of extremist hate masked in religion, whether he admits it or not (he was obviously protecting others in those interviews!)

'Islamiscists,' 'Islamofascists,' 'Islamic extremists' are routinely used to describe terrorists (in the media) who are born Muslim! In fact, I've tried to explain before that not all muslim terrorists believe in the 'Islamic Fundamentalist' agenda. Their anti-Sematic philosophy is instead rooted in Pan-Arab Nationalism (ex. The PLO, The Baath Party); yet (funny) cartoons are still posted here showing Yassar Arafat wondering where his '72 virgins' are when he arrives in hell even though there is little chance he ever believed in such.

Don't cry Nick.

You thought your cute little title would stick and it doesn't. I suppose you thought your anti-Christian friends would pop in and defend you. Who knows and who cares. Why you? Because you wrote it! Then you defended it! You went out of your way to paint me as a medicated loon and finally in your last post you got what I said on the page 1! Took you awhile but you got there.

Anything fundamentalist is wrong.

Nobody is slamming Muslims here. I'm smart enough to know a Muslim from an Islamic fundamentalist any day. The thing that I can't stand is the quiet front the put on when someone Muslim (and a fundamentalist!) blows up a building or themselves on a bus. Almost like they're down with it. If they weren't you'd think there would be a huge public outcry. It comes days later usually. The backlash towards Muslims here in the US...has there been any? Have we reached 3000?

McVeigh has NEVER stated in any article or book that I've read that his actions were the cause or result of his religious background or being. It has and always is that he despised the US government for using military-like force upon its citizens.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Don't cry Nick.

You thought your cute little title would stick and it doesn't. I suppose you thought your anti-Christian friends would pop in and defend you. Who knows and who cares. Why you? Because you wrote it! Then you defended it! You went out of your way to paint me as a medicated loon and finally in your last post you got what I said on the page 1! Took you awhile but you got there.

Anything fundamentalist is wrong.

Really? I never admitted I was wrong, I am just sorry that your education level is that low that you can't get past irony and your own hypocrisy. I do regret what I said about WARHAM, because I actually think he's a decent Christian man that may even live by his rhetoric. BigBlunderBrian, who cares, he says stupid things daily. Although I actually do like him and enjoy fighting with him.

You however are nothing but an opportunist douchebag. You do need Meds, I've seen some of the shit you've posted and I noticed you took a break in here after you infamous "Let the Indonesians suffer...post more bodies" comments, so fuck off. ;)

You're not man enough to admit what a thoughtless and base tool you are! In fact, you have done nothing but lie and deny in this post! Again, your a hypocrite asshole and a liar!


Nobody is slamming Muslims here. I'm smart enough to know a Muslim from an Islamic fundamentalist any day. The thing that I can't stand is the quiet front the put on when someone Muslim (and a fundamentalist!) blows up a building or themselves on a bus. Almost like they're down with it. If they weren't you'd think there would be a huge public outcry. It comes days later usually. The backlash towards Muslims here in the US...has there been any? Have we reached 3000?

McVeigh has NEVER stated in any article or book that I've read that his actions were the cause or result of his religious background or being. It has and always is that he despised the US government for using military-like force upon its citizens.

OH FUCK YOU! You're not smart enough! You were gleefully celebrating the deaths of 100,000's of muslims a few months ago! I mean, after all, one dickweed was wearing an OSAMA tee! So let all the little kids die, huh ASSVIBE? Or at least you thought it was kind of funny! And in the score of the US killing Muslims to Muslims killing US citizens, we're still several hundred thousand ahead!

And of course McVeigh never (directly) stated or articulated his religious beliefs, because he is protecting associations and was doing damage control! He also 'despised the government' for using military force in Iraq!

McVeigh also was rejected from the Special Forces Q-course because he was out of shape from being in the first Gulf War. He then was embittered and blamed the Army for the lost opportunity! Did he mention that in his interviews?

In fact, he actually sounds a little heroic and ennobling in your eyes ADDVIBE! You seem a little sympathetic to the terrorist yourself?

[Nickdfresh]

Here is some recruiting info for you in case you want to 'protest the federal goverment using force against it's citizens! What a patriot McVeigh was! BTW, I am being ironic ASSVIBE! An intersting read nonetheless...

The Aryan Republican Army, Elohim City,
and the OKC Bombing





"Don't ever forget Bob Mathews and don't ever forget the
'Order'... because that's what's gonna happen again
soon.... It's coming again!.... Revolution is coming!....
It's coming sooner than you think!"
-- Dennis Mahon, July, 1991, Aryan World Congress, Hayden
Lake, Idaho.



THE ORDER & THE ARYAN REPUBLICAN ARMY

=====================================


'The Order' will go down in history books as one of

the most violent and notorious domestic terrorist groups of

the 1980s. 'The Order' was founded in 1983 by Robert J.

Mathews, a recruiter for the neo-Nazi National Alliance and

an activist in the Aryan Nations. 'The Order' drew its

members from the National Alliance, Aryan Nations, and

various Klan splinter groups throughout the country.

Adopting a racist ideology and paranoid world-view, 'The

Order' began to commit acts of terrorism, robbery, fraud,

murder, and theft in an ongoing wave of crime that it's

members viewed as a revolution against the 'Zionist

Occupied Government.' Many of the hate-fueled terrorist

acts such as bombing federal buildings and murdering

minorities are described in William Pierce's novel The

Turner Diaries, the same book that Timothy McVeigh

allegedly used as a blueprint for the OKC Bombing. It's no

surprise that the author of the book is a prominent member

of the National Alliance.





The 'Order' even launched a successful

counterfeiting operation at the Aryan Nations compound in

Hayden Lake, Idaho, as well as master-minded a series of

bank and armored car robberies that netted them around

$5,000,000. The 'Order' seemingly perished in December 1984

when Robert Matthews held off 200 law enforcement officers

for over 36 hours before he was killed by gunfire. On

December 30, 1985, nine men and one woman - all members of

the group - were convicted following a four-month Federal

court case in Seattle. They were sentenced to terms of

40-100 years in prison, as well as given stiff fines.

Despite the convictions and the martyrdom of Matthews,

followers of 'The Order' remain in the Aryan terrorist

underground today. (notably Mark Thomas, James Ellison, and

Dennis Mahon)



Emerging from the ashes of 'The Order', a disturbing new

terrorist sect has mobilized in the United States. The

group is adopting the 'Leaderless Resistance' structure of

impenetrable underground cells. [1b] Calling itself the

Aryan Republican Army, the group represents the most

paramilitary and radical of the American neo-Nazi movement.

It is committed to the overthrow of the US government, the

extermination of America's Jews, and the establishment of

an "Aryan Republic" on the North American continent. "We

call ourselves the Aryan Republican Army because in some of

our tactics, and some of our goals, we have modeled the

organization after the successful and yet undefeated Irish

Republican Army," said Commander Pedro [1], in a self-made

video titled ``The Aryan Republican Army Presents: The

Armed Struggle Underground.'' [4]



The FBI discovered this terrorist cell by accident

earlier this year while investigating a string of 18 bank

robberies in the Mid West. [1] The bank bandits made off

with upwards of $500,000 before the FBI caught on to them.



With a tip from a confidential informant, the FBI

was able to pinpoint one of the bank robbers, Richard Lee

Guthrie Jr., member of the Aryan Republican Army. Guthrie

was arrested on Jan 15, 1996. Two days after his arrest,

Guthrie told FBI agents they could find co-conspirator Pete

"Commander Pedro" Langan in a duplex at 585 Reinhard Ave.

on the South Side. On Jan 18, 1996, agents surrounded the

house and arrested Langan after a brief shootout. [2]



Guthrie struck a plea bargain with the authorities

and fingered Scott Stedeford, Kevin McCarthy, and Aryan

Nations leader Mark Thomas, as accomplices in the bank

robberies, all of whom have since been arrested by the

authorities.



McCarthy plead guilty to three robberies and agreed

to testify against the others, while Stedeford was

convicted of bank robbery in Iowa in November 1996 (and

faces thirty years in prison). Langan was convicted in

Columbus, Ohio, on February 10, 1997. Richard Lee Guthrie

was found hanged in his jail cell shortly after he struck a

plea bargain and fingered the other Aryan accomplices.



Mark Thomas was brought up on charges by a Grand

Jury. The Grand Jury indictment says Thomas "recruited

young people at his residence....to rob banks and commit

other crimes on behalf of the Aryan Republican Army," [3]



Thomas has since said he believed McCarthy, a

skinhead he once described as a son, was an accomplice in

the Oklahoma City bombing. He said Richard Guthrie told him

as much in July 1995.



"His exact words were: 'Your young Mr. Wizard took out the

Murrah Building,'" Thomas said. [3]



On February 18, 1997, Thomas plead guilty to

conspiracy charges of plotting seven (of twenty-two) bank

robberies and using the funds to further the cause of the

Aryan Republican Army.






Also arrested on Jan 30, 1997 in

connection with the case was Michael

Brescia of Philadelphia. Typical of the

gang's robberies, authorities say, was a

bank heist in Madison, Wis., on Aug.

30, 1995. Brescia carried a

black-powder pipe bomb into a Bank One

branch and threatened customers and

employees with a 9mm pistol, and

proceeded to rob the bank of $9,845.

[4] Internet postings and a civil suit

by some survivors of the bombing have

accused Brescia of being an accomplice

in the Oklahoma City Bombing.





Aside from robbing banks, the terrorist cell

stockpiled weapons and ammunition, and had every

opportunity to orchestrate a terrorist bombing. The FBI

captured a shoulder-fired rocket launcher, Semtex

explosives, hand-grenade canisters, 11 pipe-bombs, and an

arsenal of guns. "These people had a support system. They

had safe-houses and very good false documents," said Mike

Reynolds, senior intelligence analyst at the Southern

Poverty Law Centre, which monitors Right-wing violence

across the country. "They were clearly preparing for

something beyond bank robberies." [1] As foretold by Dennis

Mahon at the 1991 Aryan World Congress, 'The Order' was

coming back, this time in the form of 'The Aryan Republican

Army.'







ELOHIM CITY - BASE OF OPERATIONS

================================





"When they (the FBI) find out what I've really been doing

the past two years, they'll really be surprised."

--Pete 'Commander Pedro' Langan, 1996



Elohim City is a 400-acre compound located near

Muldrow, Oklahoma, about thirty-five miles northwest of

Fort Smith, Arkansas. It was founded in 1973 by Robert

Millar, a Canadian who preaches that white Anglo-Saxons are

God's chosen people, non-whites are descendants of

pre-Adamic species lower than whites, and Jews are Satan's

children. Two dozen of Millar's 34 grandchildren reside at

Elohim City, making up about a quarter of the resident

population. Elohim City is considered a hotbed of terrorist

activity. In 1983, members of Elohim City plotted to blow

up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, which is

documented later in this article. Members of the Aryan

Republican Army used the seperatist compound as a base of

operations in the years before the OKC bombing, where they

mingled with other anti-government extremists, likely

including the elusive John Doe #2 suspect.



In 1994, Michael Brescia moved to Elohim City where

he shared a one-story house behind the compound's chapel

with Andreas Strassmeir, a former German army lietenant and

head of security at Elohim City. By the time Brescia left

Elohim City in 1995, investigators say, he, Stedeford,

Guthrie, and McCarthy were active in the Aryan Republican

Army. [4] At least five active members of the Aryan

Republican Army operated out of Elohim City in 1994 and

1995, and each of these members were in direct contact with

Andreas Strassmeir, who is suspected to be John Doe #2.



McCarthy and Stedford used to stay with Andreas

Strassmeir when they came through Elohim City for R&R

between bank robberies. In fact, they were with him at

Elohim City immediatly before the bombing in April 1995,

according to McCarthy's statement to the FBI [29]





STRASSMEIR -- ELOHIM CITY RESIDENT / JOHN DOE #2

================================================










As of yet, Strassmeir has not been identified as a

member of the Aryan Republican Army, however, he was

acquainted with Brescia, McCarthy, Stedford, and other

members of the Aryan Underground. According to Robert

Millar (Spiritual Leader at Elohim City), "Strassmeir and

Brescia were buddies." In a phone interview with John Cash,

Strassmeir said he liked Brescia because ``he had a lot of

self-confidence'' and was ``a smart guy''. [20] Strassmeir

also trained members of the Aryan Nations at Elohim City,

and provided instruction in security measures. According to

ATF Informant Carol Howe, "Strassmeir talked frequently

about direct action against the U.S. government, he trained

in weaponry, and he discussed assassinations, bombings and

mass shootings." [20]



Just Who is Andy the German?



Andreas Carl Strassmeir is the son of Guenter

Strassmeir, "the architect of German reunification" who

was once a top aide to German Chancellor Helmut Kohl.

Andreas Strassmeir spent seven years in the German army,

serving with the Panzer Grenadiers and an elite German

intelligence unit. Part of his work was to detect

infiltration by Warsaw Pact agents and then feed them

disinformation.



Strassmeir told the London Telegraph that "I've never

worked for any U.S government agency, and I've not been

involved in any intelligence operation since my discharge

from the German army in 1988." But he acknowledged he first

lived in the U.S. in 1989 because "I was hoping to work for

the operations section of the DEA. It never worked out."

More revealingly, he noted that "the right-wing in the U.S.

is incredibly easy to penetrate if you know how to talk to

them. Of course it's easier for a foreigner with an accent.

Nobody would ever suspect a German of working for the

federal government."



Strassmeir was assisted in his unsucessful attempts

to get jobs with the DEA or INS by Vinvent Petruskie, a

retired Air Force Colonel and (Strassmeir says) CIA agent

for whom Strassmeir arranged to buy used Boeing 747s from

Lufthansa. Strassmeir received a social security number in

1989 in Virginia, and obtained a Tennessee driver's license

in 1992, using a Knoxville address provided by his attorney

Kirk Lyons. In 1991 some members of the Texas Light

Infantry Brigade, a citizen's militia, followed Strassmeir

to a federal building and observed him entering it at night

using the key-pad. [20, 22]



After obtaining false documentation and a drivers

license, Strassmeir was still unable to find a job (other

than government informant). Because Andy could not legally

obtain a job, and because of his apparant intrests in

'alternative lifestyles', Andy moved to Elohim City in

1993. At that time, he had lived in the United States

illegally for five years.



Zara Patterson III, a long time resident of Elohim

City, summed up Strassmeir's intentions as equally ominous.

"From the moment Andy got here (mid-August 1991) all he

wanted us to do was illegal stuff. I had to keep telling

Andy that we were defensive here... not offensive. I had to

keep telling him that we didn't want any trouble with the

Feds."



"I never saw anyone so eaten up with military stuff

as Andy was," recalled Zara Patterson III. "I was in the

Marines, but Andy was like nothing I ever saw before. He

said he wanted to take over security and training here at

EC, and I said fine. It was one less headache for me."



According to an FBI intelligence report, Strassmeir's spent

his time at Elohim City fortifying and operating a

terrorist training facility.



A May 10, 1995 FBI investigative report says:



"Strassmeir is alleged to train platoon-sized

groups consisting of approximately 30 to 40

individuals approximately every three months at

the Elohim City facility. These individuals are

comprised of members of various militia groups

throughout the United States."






Strassmeir spent much of his time at

Elohim City in 1995. He associated with

members of the Aryan Republican Army

and James Ellison's CSL. After the OKC

Bombing Strassmeir fled the compound

with fellow Elohim City residents Pete

and Tony Ward. Pete Ward and Tony Ward

would later be named by Carol Howe and

Dennis Mahon as OKC Bombing suspects.





After making his escape from E.C. with the Ward brothers,

it is not clear how Strassmeir managed to leave the

country. (considering he had no passport or identification

papers) However, In a letter to the McCurtain Gazette from

Strassmeir's attorney, Kurt Lyons, Lyons says his client's

sudden departure from the U.S. was aided by members of

Germany's elite counterterrorism unit, GSG-9.



Dennis Mahon, Tulsa representative of the White Aryan

Resistance, has named the Ward brothers as being possible

OKC Bombing accomplices. When shown an artist's sketch done

by ABC News of the person that a witness in Kansas said

used the name of Bob Kling, Mahon didn't hesitate, "That's

Pete Ward." [11] "Ward," Mahon explained, "was known at

Elohim City as 'Andy's shadow'...Ward went everywhere

Strassmeir did and is dumb as dirt." Carol Howe also

identified Pete and Tony Ward as OKBOMB accomplices when

she was debriefed by the FBI at the Oklahoma Command

Center, on April 20, 1995. [30]



In 1992, Catina Lawson, who lived in Herington,

Kansas, remembers seeing Strassmeir along with Timothy

McVeigh, whom she dated. Lawson recalled that Strassmeir

"liked to dress in black, and he was real cold and

arrogant--a real jerk." Two other witnesses, Larry and

Cathy Wild, say they saw and talked with Strassmeir at a

lake north of Herington the week before the OKC bombing

[21] Both of these witnesses indicate that Strassmeir was

in Kansas during the same time frame that McVeigh was, and

that he very well may have been with McVeigh during the

weeks before the bombing.



It is the belief of this writer that John Doe #2, the

second unidentified subject in the April 19th 1995 bombing,

is none other than Andreas Strassmeir. The evidence shows

that Strassmeir spent seven years in the German army,

served in the Panzer Grenadiers, and participated in covert

activities such as detecting infiltration by Warsaw Pact

agents and feeding them disinformation. Just what was Lt.

Strassmeir doing in America from 1992-1995? Why was he at

Elohim City arming and training Aryan Nations members? Did

Strassmeir work as an agent provacateur and informant in

the bombing, on behalf of the Federal Government, in an

attempt at a sting operation gone awry? The time in which

Strassmeir served as head of security at Elohim City placed

him in a situation to make direct contact with Timothy

McVeigh, Michael Brescia, Pete Ward, Tony Ward, Kevin

McCarthy, Scott Stedford, Pete Langan, and Dennis Mahon,

and other terrorists.



Was Strassmeir part of a plot, or an operation? Strassmeir

had this to say about the OKBOMB case:



"It's obvious that it was a government 'op'

that went wrong, isn't it? The ATF had something

going with McVeigh. They were watching him, of

course they were. What they should have done is

make an arrest while the bomb was still being

made instead of waiting till the last moment for

a publicity stunt. They had everything they

needed to make the bust, and they screwed it up."



"Whoever thought this thing up is an idiot, in my

opinion. I am told they thought it would be

better to put a bigger bomb in there. The bigger

the better. It would make them more

guilty....McVeigh knew he was delivering a bomb,

but he had no idea what was in that truck. He

just wanted to shake things up a little; you

know, make a gesture."



"The bomb was never meant to explode. They were

going to arrest McVeigh at the site with the bomb

in hand, but he didn't come at the right time...

Maybe he changed the time, you never know with

people who are so unreliable."



"I have heard that the truck was expected in the

middle of the night, between two and three in the

morning. The truck had a transmitter, so they

could track it with a radio receiving device. I

don't know how they could have lost contact. I

think there was misinformation that the operation

had been canceled."



One wonders where Lt. Strassmeir gets his information.

From personal experience perhaps?





THE JOHN DOE #2 MYTH

====================





The Federal Government's version of the OKC Bombing

states that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols built a bomb,

then McVeigh drove it by himself to OKC and delivered it.

Upon examination, this case is very weak. First of all,

more than 10 individuals saw McViegh in Oklahoma City on

April 19th and each individual saw him driving in the Ryder

truck with other suspects. It has been proven that Terry

Nichols, the government's only other suspect in the

bombing, was at home on April 19th, 1995. So, just who were

these other men with McVeigh in the Ryder truck? The

logical conclusion is John Doe #2, and possibly a third,

fourth or fifth individual. However, the FBI says that John

Doe #2 doesn't exist. Here is their version, taken from an

Associated Press article:



"After a massive search, the government said it

had determined that John Doe 2 was an Army

enlisted man who had no connection with the

bombing. Agents said the man had been at the same

truck rental facility in Kansas around the time

that McVeigh rented the truck."



The assertion that John Doe #2 was merely an Army

enlisted man with no connection to the bombing is a false

one. The FBI says that Army Private Todd Bunting, who

visited Elliot's bodyshop on April 18th, was the man seen

with McVeigh. This is impossible. Two men entered Elliot's

Bodyshop on Monday, April 17th, 1995. The first man, tall

and slender, was thought to be McVeigh. The second man was

shorter, with a stocky build, wearing a baseball cap. Three

employees saw the second man, and each one seperatly

provided their description of the man to FBI agents on

April 20th, 1995, just three days after they saw him. Each

witness was positive that they had seen John Doe #1 and

John Doe #2. The FBI's is lying when they say that John Doe

#2 is a Todd Bunting, who does not look like the artists's

composite, and had visited Elliot's on Tuesday, not Monday.



Also, the FBI's investigation of John Doe #2 was in

no fashion a "massive search." An FBI memo written weeks

after the investigation by San Francisco-based FBI agent

Thomas Ravenelle writes "The Oklahoma City Command Post has

directed all offices to hold (John Doe No. 2) leads in

abeyance." [33]



Abeyance means inactivity, or suspension. This

memo indicates that FBI agents suspended their search for

the elusive Oklahoma City bomb suspect John Doe No. 2 in

the critical weeks soon after the April 1995 blast, belying

assurances by federal officials at the time that the search

was continuing. Was the FBI protecting Andreas Strassmeir,

who is suspected to be John Doe #2? Stephen Jones,

McVeigh's trial attourney summed it up best when he said:



"It was the grand jury that found there were

others involved in this crime," Jones noted. "But

the government stopped looking for the other main

suspect and ignored what its own grand jury said

because that finding and the existence of John Doe

No. 2 is inconsistent with the prosecution's

theory."



So, we know that the FBI did not properly

investigate John Doe #2 witnesses or leads. The FBI lied

about John Doe #2. We know also that the FBI ignored the

Grand Jury's findings. According to an Oklahoma City

Bombing Grand Jury members, "There were at least five men

ID'ed by witnesses as being on the scene the morning of the

bombing." [34] (Many of these eyewitnesses are detailed in

Appendix C, 'OKBOMB Eyewitnesses')



Why was the FBI hiding John Doe #2? Why did the FBI

propose the ridiculous Todd Bunting theory, which should be

called "John Doe #2 Myth", as it is pure fabrication. The

cover-up of John Doe #2 and lack of proper investigation is

a testament to the integrity of the FBI, whose performance

in the OKBOMB case is a travesty of justice.





OKC: THE FIRST PLOT (1983-1985)

===============================





"It has the potential, down the road, of being the most

dangerous group (Elohim City) in the country."



--Kerry Noble (former member of Covenant, Sword, Arm of the

Lord)





Residents of Elohim City being connected with plots

that were intended to blow up the Murrah building did not

begin with the Aryan Republican Army. On April 19th, 1985,

exactly ten years before the bombing of the Murrah building

the FBI and ATF raided members of James Ellison's Covenant,

Sword, and Arm of the Lord group. Ellison is now married to

Reverend Robert Millar's granddaughter and lives at Elohim

City.



The 1985 raid on Elohim City became a siege that

lasted four days before members of the group surrendered to

authorities. After the raid, while preparing a sedition

case against Ellison, U.S. Assistant attourney Steven N.

Snyder, in Fort Smith, Arkansas learned that a plot to blow

up the building had existed as early as 1983. [13] Ellison

admitted in court that he had been involved in a plot to

bomb the Murrah Building. Another member of conspirator in

the 1983 bombing plan was Kerry Noble, now an anti-neo nazi

activist. Nobles said "In 1983 we cased the [Murrah]

building, and made plans to blow up that building." [23]



Richard Wayne Snell, another member of the Covenant,

was a co-conspirator with Ellison and Nobles. Snell has

since been convicted and put to death for the murder of a

black police officer and a businessman he believed to be

jewish. [14] Richard Wayne Snell was executed on April

19th, 1995. The Denver Post reported Arkansas prison

official Alan Ables as saying that before Snell's execution

on the day of the bombing he had "repeatedly predicted that

there would be a bombing or explosion on the day of his

death." Snell also reportedly "chuckled and laughed as he

watched television coverage of the Oklahoma City disaster."

[13]





DENNIS THE MENACE

=================








"Timothy McVeigh is my hero.

Wish we had a thousand more like

him. He took action."



--Dennis Mahon





Another person who was living at Elohim City at the

time of the bombing was Dennis Mahon. Mahon is a 47-year

old white male currently living in Tulsa, Oklahoma. In the

past, Mahon was the imperial dragon of the Oklahoma Ku Klux

Klan [8] and held a similiar position in the Missouri Ku

Klux Klan [35] but is currently the #3 man in the White

Aryan Resistance which he helped organize. Mahon writes

articles and speeches for racist organizations and

publications across the United States. Mahon also operates

a telephone news line he has dubbed "Dial-A-Racist", where

he spreads information and propaganda with racist

overtones.



Mahon has been subpoened to appear before the

Oklahoma City Bombing Grand Jury several times and in each

case he did not answer any questions, instead asserting his

fifth amendment right to refuse to answer questions that

would incriminate him. In a deposition taken by John Cash,

as detailed previously, Mahon made incriminating comments

about Pete Ward, Tony Ward, Michael Brescia, Andreas

Strassmeir, and himself. In the deposition, Mahon said that

Pete Ward was constantly with Andreas Strassmeir, and that

Pete Ward heavily resembles the John Doe #1 police sketch.

Mahon has also told Ambrose Evans-Pritchard that he had

met Timothy McVeigh several times. [31] Mahon was also a

known associate of Andreas Strassmeir and members of the

community at Elohim City, placing him in a position to make

contact with members of the Aryan Republican Army, and

other Oklahoma City Bombing suspects. Andreas Strassmeir

described Dennis Mahon as "a good friend."



Ironically, Mahon is currently distancing himself

from the very people detailed in this article. In a

December 19, 1998 Dial-A-Racist recording, Mahon

characterized Mark Thomas and James Ellison as "race

traitors" and suggested that they be tried for treason.

It's no wonder Mahon is distancing himself from these

people as they are the very suspects in the 1983 OKC

Bombing plot and 1995 OKC Bombing plot, the latter of which

Mahon is also a suspect.



In an April 21, 1995 debriefing at the Oklahoma City

FBI Command Center, it is stated that Dennis Mahon had

discussed "targeting federal installations for destruction

through bombings, such as the IRS Building, the Tulsa

Federal Building, and the Oklahoma City Federal Building."



ATF informant Carol Howe said that Mahon and

Strassmeir had "taken three trips to Oklahoma City in

November 1994, December 1994, and February 1995." She had

accompanied the group once, in December 1994. [32] Howe's

assertations about Mahon and Strassmeir are corroborated by

ATF Special Agent Angela Finley, under oath, on April 24,

1997. [36]



So, the ATF has admitted to the substance of Carol

Howe's claims. The ATF knew that Andreas Strassmeir had

discussed blowing up federal buildings in Oklahoma. It knew

that a party from Elohim City (including Dennis Mahon, who

has met Timothy McVeigh) had visited Oklahoma City four

weeks before the Oklahoma City bombing. And, just as in

1983, the target of the Elohim City terrorists was the

Alfred P. Murrah federal building.



It has also been alleged that Mahon knew Timothy McVeigh.

It's no secret that Mahon sees McVeigh as a hero, in his

own twisted way. What is more incriminating is the fact

that JD Cash has Dennis Mahon on tape discussing the

bombing, saying things like "Michael Brescia and Mark

Thomas are up to their asses in the bombing." When Cash

told Mahon that Andreas Strassmeir was an intelligence

agent, Mahon responed by cursing "Oh sweet jesus, I'm

fucked!" This tape, alleged to have been made by journalist

John Cash, is a valuable piece of evidence. If it's

contents are true then it means that Mahon knows something.

The only question now is "How much did he know, and when

did he know it?"





THE KEHOE CONNECTION

====================






On July 17, 1997, a $20

million bond was set by an Ohio

Judge for Chevie Kehoe, former

resident of Elohim City. [27]



Kehoe was detained for

questioning in the slayings of

Tilly, Ark., gun dealer David

Mueller his wife Nancy, and her

daughter, Sarah Elizabeth Powell,

8. The three disappeared in

January 1996. Their decomposed

bodies were dredged from the

Illinois Bayou near Russellville,

Ark. [15]





Kehoe is believed to have used a .223-caliber rifle,

stolen from Meuller, when he fired 26 shots during the

second shootout with two Wilmington police officers at the

Clinton Electrical and Plumbing Supply. The reader may

recognized this shootout as it has been featured on

primetime tv's 'Cops', 'World's Scariest Police Shootouts',

and 'PrimeTime Live.'



Chevie Kehoe was assisted in the shootout by his

brother, Cheyne Kehoe. Both brothers had spent time at

Elohim City. Robert Millar, the bearded patriarch of this

so-called "Christian Identity" compound, confirms that the

brothers had lived at Elohim City, along with four of the

Pennsylvania men indicted earlier this year in the ARA bank

robberies. [16]



The FBI is currently investigating claims by a former

motel manager who s ays that Chevie Kehoe may have known

months in advance of Timothy McVeigh's plans to bomb the

Oklahoma City federal building. The FBI has interviewed the

motel manager, who said Chevie Kehoe showed up at the

Spokane motel on April 19, 1995, about 45 minutes before

the bombing, and said he wanted to watch CNN. He reportedly

was ecstatic when a news bulletin reported the blast. [15]



The Spokesman Review newspaper in Spokane reported

that the hotel manager said Kehoe said "it was about time''

after the explosion was reported. "Days before that, he had

mentioned to me that there's going to be something

happening on the 19th and it's going to wake people up,''

the manager told the newspaper on condition of anonymity.





MCVEIGH AND FORTIER LINKS TO ARA/ELOHIM CITY

============================================





What makes this Aryan Army cell so menacing is the

growing body of evidence that its members were in contact

with Tim McVeigh, the prime suspect in the bombing of the

Oklahoma federal building in April 1995.



McVeigh telephoned Andreas Strassmeir at Elohim City

on April 5, 1995, just minutes after reserving the truck

allegedly used in the bombing. [8,9] On October 12, 1993

McVeigh was stopped for speeding on the secluded road to

Elohim City. [10]



It was reported on January 2, 1997, in the McCurtain

Gazette, that Carol Howe saw Timothy McVeigh and Michael

Fortier at Elohim City. This was 10 months before her

testimony at the trial of Terry Nichols. Howe was

interviewed by John Cash and she had this to say:



"Sometime before Christmas a lot of guys showed up at EC

(Elohim City). One that I recall was Tim (McVeigh), who I

only knew as Tim Tuttle. He was there with a guy who used

the name Fontaine, a person I now recognize as Mike

Fortier."



Referring to McVeigh, she said, "I never even spoke

to him. He was considered a 'good soldier' by the members

of the ARA, but not a leader; he was just someone you sent

out on jobs, because he was reliable." [1]



Carol Howe's testimony in the trial of Terry Nichols

adds that McVeigh was seen at Elohim City before Christmas

1994 in the presence of Pete Ward and Andreas Strassmier.

Her testimony is as follows:



Q: Have you seen photographs of Timothy McVeigh?



A: Yes, I have.



Q: Did you ever see Timothy McVeigh at the Elohim City

compound?



A: I believe I did.



Q: All right. When did you see him?



A: It was in July of 1994.



Q: Okay. And where did you see him?



A: He was at a section of the compound walking across a lawn

near the church building.



Q: And was he accompanied by any other individuals who you

know?



A: Yes, he was.



Q: And who were they?



A: A man named Peter Ward and a man named Andreas Strassmeier.



Q: About how far away were you when you believe you saw

Timothy McVeigh?



A: Approximately 70 feet.



The, during cross-examination, Carol Howe reveals

the first date in which she identified Timothy McVeigh as

the man she knew as "Tim Tuttle"--the man seen walking with

Pete Ward and Andreas Strassmeir, and the man that went to

Elohim City in July with Michael Fortier. Her testimony is

as follows.



A: It was approximately April 25 or 24. I was at the Tulsa

ATF office. At the time that I was at that office, I was

shown videotape. One videotape included Timothy McVeigh. I

looked at the videotape and I told them that he looked

familiar; that I had seen him at a rally.



Q: You said you had seen him at a Klan rally. You didn't

say that you had seen him at Elohim City?



A: They're all white separatists.



Q: But they're different locations, aren't they?



A: They hold rallies at Elohim City.



Verifying Fortier's presence at Elohim City is the

patriarch of the seperatist community, Robert Mollar. From

an interview on KOKH-TV OKC, Robert Mollar was asked if

Michael Fortier had ever been to Elohim City. His response:



"He might have been here for two or three days. I can't

answer you. I would think it would be before the bombing or

shortly after. Right in that time frame." [2]



Michael Fortier's testimony at the trial of Terry

Nichols also indicates that he was familiar with the

violent tendencies of 'Aryan' criminals at Elohim City.

When Nichols Defense Lawyer Michael Tigar asked Fortier

"..you said that you were fearful of reprisals from the

Aryan movement if you testified against Timothy McVeigh;

correct?", Fortier answered in the affirmitive, "that is

correct." [3]



In yet another strange turn of events, Timothy

McVeigh's sister said in a sworn statement dated May 2,

1995, that Tim gave her (3) $100.00 bills and asked that

they be exchanged for 'clean money' because, her brother

said, the bills were "from a recent bank robbery in which

he and others had participated." Jennifer McVeigh went on

to say "He had been involved in a bank robbery but did not

provide further details. He advised me that he had not

participated in the robbery itself, but was involved in the

planning or setting up of this robbery. I observed at the

time that my brother had on his person an undetermined

quantity of $100 bills, of which he provided me a small

portion. It is my belief that the bank robbery had occurred

within the recent past. My brother remarked that the money

represented his share of the bank robbery proceeds." [17]



Another confirmation of this comes from Terry

Nichols. While being questioned on April 21st, after he

turned himself in at the Kansas police station, Nichols

seemed to think that McVeigh was going to rob a bank. The

transcripts of the FBI questionining indicate something

very peculiar about Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh's

April 16th, 1995 trip from Oklahoma City to Herington,

Kansas. Nichols said that on April 16th, Timothy McVeigh

told him "You will see something big in the future."

Nichols asked, "What are you going to do, rob a bank?" [18]

What this does indicate, is that Terry Nichols did wasn't

aware of a bombing in the making, but he was familiar with

McVeigh's links to robbery. Why else would Nichols think of

bank robbery right away, unless he was already familiar

with McVeigh's links to such robbery?



Did Timothy McVeigh help plan some of the Aryan

Republican Army bank robberies? The testimony of Robert

Millar, Michael Fortier, and Carol Howe all indicate that

McVeigh was in a position to meet Michael Brescia and other

members of the ARA. The FBI questioning of Jennifer McVeigh

and Terry Nichols both indicate connections to bank

robbery. If McVeigh was planning activities with the Aryan

Republican Army, bank robbery may not have been the only

trick up their sleeves. The ARA professed in their own

video that "Federal buildings may have to be bombed and

civilian loss of life is regrettable but expected."



Other suspicious circumstances that indicate

connections to bank robbery include that when McVeigh was

arrested by State Trooper Charles Hanger, he had 2,000 cash

on him. [19] Later information revealed that McVeigh had

over $10,000 hidden away in a number of bank accounts, and

several thousand dollars stashed in storage units. [5]





STRASSMEIR, BRESCIA, MCVEIGH TOGETHER

=====================================





There are numerous witnesses on the record that have

placed McVeigh with Andreas Strassmeir and Michael Brescia.

Of these witnesses, there are a few that are notable such

as a group of dancers who encountered McVeigh, Strassmeir,

and Brescia. Five women at a Lady Godiva's of Tulsa have

identified Michael Brescia as the man they saw sitting with

Tim McVeigh on April 8, 1995, 11 days before the bombing.



On a program called "The Fifth Estate," the Canadian

counterpart to this country's "Sixty Minutes," reporters

obtained portions of a security video taken at Lady

Godivas, the Tulsa Strip club. John Cash, of the McCurtain

Gazette has also followed up on this story and acquired a

copy of the video tape.



The videotape was taken in the dressing room of Lady

Godiva's on the night of April 8, 1995. A dancer is clearly

heard saying, "And he said, 'I'm a very smart man.'....

'You are?'.... 'Yes, I am.'.... 'And on April 19, 1995,

you'll remember me for the rest of your life!'" Laughing,

she says, "Oh, really?" "Yes you will," she says he

responded. [25] Smiling wide, the dancer starts to walk out

of the dressing room where the security camera was located,

then turns back to the other girls and says, "Weirdo,"

before returning out front. Today it can be revealed that

from photographs, witnesses at the club identified the man

doing the bragging as Timothy McVeigh, and those seated

with him as Michael Brescia, and his former Elohim City

roommate, Andreas Strassmeir. [26] The witnesses from the

topless club agreed to appear on that Canadian TV segment,

identifying the photos. [25] The FBI has reviewed a copy of

the video from the club and has also interviewed the same

witnesses featured in the CBC program, but the Justice

Department has made no official comment on what they intend

to do with the evidence. After the airing of the Fourth

Estate program, one of the witnesses, Shawn Tea Farrens,

23, was found dead in her apartment. [26]





To summarize, this article has attempted to show that



(1) Residents of Elohim City plotted to blow up the Murrah

building in 1983.



(2) Ex-residents of Elohim City (Chevie Kehoe and Richard

Snell) had prior knowledge of the 1995 OKC Bombing.



(3) Members of the Aryan Republican Army frequented Elohim

City



(4) Members of the Aryan Republican Army have been named by

Mark Thomas, Dennis Mahon, and Carol Howe as OKBOMB

accomplices



(5) Timothy McVeigh associated with members of Elohim City

including Andreas Strassmeir and Michael Brescia



(6) Timothy McVeigh was involved in bank robberies



(7) Members of the Aryan Republican Army (Michael Brescia,

Kevin McCarthy, and the Ward brothers) could have been

involved in the OKC Bombing.



(END)

__________________________________________________ __________

FOOTNOTES:



[1a] Nazi Organization called Bruders Schweigen, or simply,

"'The Order'" In the early 1980s 'The Order' was the most

dangerous terrorist sect in the United States, robbing $3.8

million from an armored car, planting bombs, and killing, in

an escalating guerilla campaign against the Zionist Occupied

Government.

[1b]"Utilizing the Leaderless Resistance concept, all

individuals and groups operate independently of each other,

and never report to a central headquarters or single leader

for direction or instruction...participants in a program of

Leaderless Resistance through Phantom Cell or individual

action must know exactly what they are doing, and exactly

how to do it."

[1] Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, The London Telegraph, Issue 564

[2] Robert Ruth, "Friend's Tip To FBI led to Arrests In Bank

Bandits Case", The Columbus Dispatch, 12/04/96

[3] John P. Martin, "Thomas Indicted in Bank Robberies", The

Morning Call, 01/31/97

[4] Mark Fazlollah, "Eagle Scout was soldier for far right",

The Philadelphia Inquirer, 02/28/97

[5] Lawrence Myers, Media Bypass, 06/95

[6] KOKC, Oklahoma City TV, Robert Mollar Interview,

04/02/97

[7] Terry Nichols Trial Transcripts

[8] Peter Annin and Tom Morganthau, "Blowing Smoke,"

Newsweek, 02/19/96

[9] Timothy McVeigh Trial, "Darryl Bridges" calling card

exhibit

[10] Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, "Did Agents Bungle US Terror

Bomb?", London Sunday Telegraph, 05/19/96

[11] John Cash, "Confessions of a Revolutionary", McCurtain

Gazette, 04/01/97

[12] John Cash, "The Spy Who Came In From The Cold",

McCurtain Gazette, 02/11/97

[13] Kelly Kurt, Monterey County (California) Herald,

Associated Press, 05/20/95

[14] Reuters, 02/08/96

[15] Mark Jewell, "FBI investigating new lead in Oklahoma

City Bombing", Associated Press, 01/17/98

[16] William Jasper, The New American Magazine, 03/31/97

[17] Pierre Thomas, "McVeigh's Sisters Says he Robbed,

Carried Explosives", Washington Post in San Fransisco

Chronicle, 07/19/95

[18] Patrick E. Cole, "What Nichols Revealed", Time

Magazine, 10/06/97

[19] David Johnston, "Just Before He Was To Be Freed, Prime

Bombing Suspect Is Identified in Jail", New York Times,

04/22/95

[20] John Cash, "Strassmeir Helped Fortify, Arm Elohim City

Bunkers", McCurtain Gazette, 04/13/97

[21] Laura Frank, "Oklahoma Probe May Touch Tennessee," The

Tennessean, 06/30/96

[22] Orlin Grabbe, "Oklahoma City, Government-Paid

Neo-Nazis, and the FCC", http://www.taci.net/kalliste

[23] Chris Hansen, "City of Secrets", NBC Dateline, 05/30/97

[24] David Hoffman, "Family on Quest for Answers Meets

Harassment, Intimidation", The Washington Weekly, 04/21/97

[25] "The Fifth Estate", The Canadian Broadcasting Company,

10/22/96

[26] John Cash, "Is A Videotape From A Tulsa Topless Bar

The "Smoking Gun" In Oklahoma Bombing?", McCurtain Daily

Gazette, 09/25/96

[27] Militia Watchdog, http://www.militia-watchdog.com, 12/12/97

[28] Judy Thomas, Kansas City Star, 03/17/96.

[29] FBI 301 Report, statement of Kevin McCarthy, 06/14/96

[30] ATF Investigation by (SA) James Blanchard II and (SA)

Angela Finley, 04/21/96

[31] Ambrose Evans Pritchard, "The Secret Life of Bill

Clinton: The Unreported Stories", pp 61, 67

[32] FBI Memo of Special Agent James Blanchard, April 21, 1995.

[33] FBI Memo of Special Agent Thomas P. Ravenelle, May 1995

[34] Jon Rappoport, 6,000-word interview with former OKC

Bombing Grand Jury member Hoppy Heidelberg, 12/14/95

[35] Lynn Standerwick, "Freedom Forum," interview with J.D.

Cash, American Freedom magazine, 05/96, p.15

[36] ATF SA Angela Finley Under Oath (04/24/97)



Q: "Ms Howe told you about Mr. Strassmeir's threats to blow

up federal buildings, didn't she?"



Finley: "In general, yes."



Q: "That was before the Oklahoma City Bombing?"



Finley: "Yes."



Q: "Now, Ms. Howe actually took some of these people from

Elohim City at your direction to Oklahoma City, didn't she?"



Finley: "She went with them. She probably didn't drive."



[...]



Q: "This trip to Oklahoma City by Elohim City residents

occured before the bombing, actually by a few weeks, didn't

it?"



Finley: "No, it would be months... the fall of '94."



Q: "Are you sure? So, it wasn't the third week of February?"



Finley: "Oh, I'm sorry, we did send her back."



Q: "I'm asking you whether it is a fact that Ms. Howe picked

up people from Elohim City... and took them to Oklahoma City

in February, the third week, of 1995."



Finley: "I would have took look at the reports again."



Q: "The very next day, you asked Ms. Howe to take you to

Oklahoma City and show you the places they visited, didn't

you?"



Finley: "I don't know if it was the next day, but yes, I

took her to Oklahoma City and asked her the places."



[...]

[37]


http://www.dcia.com/elohem.html site down

Archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20020824072320/http://www.dcia.com/elohem.html

Carol Howe, who had a swastika tattooed on her arm, and a boyfriend were later accused of
making a bomb threat on a racist hot line. She said she was still working as an informant.
At her 1997 trial, she was found not guilty.
These Articles Prove Once Again, That Carol Howe Is Not Telling The Truth:
http://www.johnnyleeclary.com/carolhowe2.htm

============================================

BREAKING: Was Oklahoma City bombing wider conspiracy?
Wed Feb 25 19:24:39 2004

Hate Groups - US had clues before Oklahoma City Bombing - February ...
... Dan Defenbaugh, the retired FBI agent who supervised the Oklahoma City bombing
investigation, said the FBI did not know about much of what the ATF learned ...
http://www.okcbombing.org/News%20Articles/OKC,%20911%20link/hate_groups.htm

The John Doe Times
... the Homeboy Bank robbers, AKA the 'Aryan Republican Army"; ... 14 July 1996: "Aryan 'Rollover'
Bank robber 'Fostered' in ... 17 July 1996: "The Republic You Save May Be ...
http://www.constitution.org/okc/jdt.htm

JOHN DOE #2 IDENTIFIED: BUT CAN WE GET THE FBI TO ARREST HIM?
THE STORY OF THE EVENTS THAT WILL EXPOSE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING TRUTH
http://www.constitution.org/okc/jdt01-01.htm

Was Oklahoma City bombing wider conspiracy?
Newly revealed evidence hints at links to white supremacist gang
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4371384/

Dan Defenbaugh, a retired FBI agent who led the investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing, says he was never shown several pieces of evidence suggesting a connection between a white supremacist bank robbery gang and Timothy McVeigh, who was executed for the April 19, 1995, attack on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

The Associated Press
Updated: 1:21 p.m. ET Feb. 25, 2004

WASHINGTON - The FBI believed Timothy McVeigh tried to recruit additional help in the days before the deadly 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and gathered evidence that white supremacist bank robbers may have become involved, according to government documents never introduced at McVeigh’s trial.

The retired FBI chief of the Oklahoma City investigation, Dan Defenbaugh, said he was unaware of some evidence obtained by The Associated Press and that the investigation should be reopened to determine whether the robbery gang was linked to McVeigh.

The evidence never shared with Defenbaugh’s investigators or defense lawyers includes documents showing the Aryan Republican Army bank robbers possessed explosive blasting caps similar to those McVeigh stole and a driver’s license with the name of a central player who was robbed in the Oklahoma City plot.

“If the evidence is still there, then it should be checked out,” said Defenbaugh, who reviewed the documents at the request of the AP. “If I were still in the bureau, the investigation would be reopened.”

More than 160 died in blast
The bombing killed more than 160 people and McVeigh was put to death for it in 2001. His co-defendant, Terry Nichols, will stand trial in Oklahoma next week on state charges that carry the death penalty.

Reuters file

Convicted Oklahoma City bombing conspirator Terry Nichols, in a May 10, 1995 file photo.


Peter Langan, one member of the robbery gang, told the AP he plans to testify at Nichols’ trial and that federal prosecutors several years ago offered and then withdrew a plea deal for information he had about the Oklahoma City bombing.

Langan said at least three fellow gang members were in Oklahoma around the time of the bombing and one later confided to him that they had become involved. The gang “had some liability problems as it related to Oklahoma City,” Langan alleged in a phone interview from federal prison, where he is serving life sentences for the robbery spree involving nearly two dozen Midwest banks in the 1990s.

McVeigh’s ex-lawyer said the evidence obtained by the AP is the strongest to date to show what he has argued for years — that the bombing conspiracy may have involved more people than McVeigh and Nichols.

“I think these pieces close the circle, and they clearly show the bombing conspiracy consisted probably of 10 conspirators,” attorney Stephen Jones said. “They (government officials) simply turned their backs on a group of people for which there is credible evidence suggesting they were involved in the murder of 160 people.”

FBI and Justice Department officials declined comment, citing the upcoming trial.

Agents suspected link between McVeigh, robbers
Agents who worked both the McVeigh bombing and the bank robbery spree — two of the FBI’s highest priority cases of the 1990s — said they suspected a link between the two because of physical evidence as well as statements made by the robbers and a girlfriend.

But the agents said they ruled out a connection when the bank robbers denied their involvement and provided an alibi showing they left Oklahoma three days before McVeigh’s bomb detonated outside the Alfred P. Murrah federal building on April 19, 1995.

That alibi, however, was contradicted by information Langan offered prosecutors and by car sales records showing the bank robbers were still in the Oklahoma area after they claimed to have left, FBI documents show.

Defenbaugh said his investigators never were told about the license, the blasting caps or problems with the robbers’ alibi, all of which he first learned about from the AP this year.

He and other agents said there could be plausible explanations for each — blasting caps are plentiful and the bank robbers were experts in identification fraud — but those questions needed to be answered.

FBI officials couldn’t explain why certain information from the robbery investigation wasn’t shared with Defenbaugh’s team, even though the two teams worked together closely.

McVeigh in 1994 stole from a quarry hundreds of construction blasting caps, some which he used to explode the Oklahoma City bomb. The FBI spent months unsuccessfully trying to locate many of the other stolen caps.

Blasting caps in Christmas wrap
Agents collected witness testimony that McVeigh had placed some of the extra caps in two boxes wrapped in Christmas paper in the back of his car along with mercury switches and duffel bags.

One electric and five non-electric blasting caps were found in the Aryan Republican Army robbers’ Ohio hideout in January 1996, along with mercury switches, a duffel bag and two items described as a “Christmas package,” FBI records show. Rather than analyze the caps as evidence, the FBI allowed firefighters to destroy them at the scene.

The destruction “in itself was in total violation of the FBI’s regulations and the rules of evidence,” Defenbaugh said. “If there was Christmas wrapping paper, that should really have been a key to people. That should have keyed interest, and caused them to be compared by the laboratory to see if these were from McVeigh.”

The FBI took photos of the caps, but refused repeated requests from AP to release them.

Defenbaugh said he also was concerned his investigation was never told the bank robbers had an Arkansas drivers’ license in the name of Robert Miller, the alias name used by Arkansas gun dealer Roger Moore.

Robbery victim's driver's license
The government contended at McVeigh’s trial that Moore was robbed at his Hot Springs, Ark., home in November 1994, and the proceeds were used to fund the Oklahoma City bombing.

McVeigh was in Ohio the day Moore was robbed, staying in a hotel near a bank the robbers would hit just one month later.


javascript:OCW('http://www.msnbc.com/modules/interactive.asp?id=/d/ip/fbisnafus/data.js&navid=NEWS&fmt=cw','int520x550','width=520,height=550');

FBI agents were so suspicious of a link they analyzed video footage of the robbery to see whether McVeigh participated, but the FBI lab reported the comparison of McVeigh’s picture to the bank surveillance video was inconclusive. That video was destroyed in 1999 by the FBI despite rules to the contrary.

A few months after Moore’s robbery, McVeigh and the gun dealer exchanged letters in which Moore went by the name Robert Miller, the same alias on the license bank robber Richard Guthrie possessed when he was arrested in 1996.

“If the license is the same as our Roger Moore, then I’m really concerned,” Defenbaugh said.

The FBI declined requests from AP to release a photo of the driver’s license.

Defenbaugh said he also was unaware that the government recovered a videotape from the robbers that included surveillance of several properties. Langan said he suspects the tape includes footage of Moore’s home where the 1994 robbery occurred.

Death row inmate adds to intrigue
Adding to the intrigue, a death row inmate who has written a book about his experiences with McVeigh inside prison alleges the convicted Oklahoma City bomber told him the bank robbery gang assisted the bombing plot.

David Paul Hammer, a convicted murderer set to be executed in June, said he has no way of knowing whether McVeigh told him the truth.

His book, due out next month, details what McVeigh told him about the robbers. Hammer claims he kept notes from his conversations and believes prison officials surreptitiously recorded some conversations.

“He (McVeigh) knew they were involved because he said he planned it with them,” Hammer said. “He said they were part of what he called his security detail.”

FBI agents acknowledged they investigated suspicions of a link between McVeigh and the bank robbers.

When bank robber Mark Thomas was indicted in January 1997 he told reporters that at least one gang member was involved in the Oklahoma bombing, according to a newspaper clip in FBI files. “Your young Mr. Wizard took out the Murrah building,” Thomas was quoted as saying of one of his bank robbery colleagues.

Ex-girlfriend tells of bombing threat
Thomas’ ex-girlfriend told FBI agents her boyfriend stated shortly before he traveled to a white supremacist compound at Elohim City, Okla., in spring 1995 that a federal building was about to be bombed.

“We are going to get them. We are going to hit one of their buildings during the middle of the day. It’s going to be a federal building,” Donna Marazoff quoted Thomas as saying during her FBI interview.

FBI agents also recovered a videotape from the bank robbers in which they vowed a war with the government and talked about a “courthouse massacre” while holding up a copy of an explosives manual.

Thomas could not be located for comment, but was quoted in FBI interview reports as saying “he could not recall ever saying anything to Donna Marazoff about blowing anything up or about taking part in any bombings.”

The FBI agents said they dropped the inquiry after Thomas, Guthrie and other members of the ARA gang were captured in 1996 and 1997, denied their involvement in McVeigh’s bombing and provided an alibi.

Questions about alibi
The alibi, according to FBI records, was that the bank robbers left Elohim City on April 16, 1995, and went to a house in Kansas to meet with Langan three days before the bombing. But the FBI’s own records conflicted with that account.

Used car sales records gathered by the FBI showed the gang purchased a truck on April 17, 1995, on the Oklahoma-Arkansas border, then returned to Elohim City to sell an old vehicle.

Langan said he offered to tell prosecutors back in 1996 that the bank robbers’ alibi was bogus. “They didn’t return to the house until the morning of April 20,” Langan claimed.

A January 1996 FBI teletype stated the FBI had received information from an informant that McVeigh had made repeated contacts with the Elohim City compound where the bank robbers frequently stayed.

The teletype said McVeigh called the compound April 5, 1995, on “a day that he was believed to have been attempting to recruit a second conspirator to assist in the OKBOMB attack.” At the time, at least two banks robbers were present, FBI records show.

Defenbaugh said while the evidence was never introduced at McVeigh’s trial, FBI agents did believe McVeigh was seeking to recruit additional help to facilitate his getaway. But he said the FBI failed to find any evidence McVeigh received help or made other contacts to Elohim City except for the one call.

The documents show FBI agents first suspected a possible link in summer 1995 when Guthrie left behind at the site of two bank robberies a newspaper article about the Oklahoma City bombing with McVeigh’s picture circled.

Langan said the robbers became fearful Guthrie might recklessly implicate them in the Oklahoma City bombing, and in fall 1995 discussed killing Guthrie. Guthrie eventually committed suicide after his capture by authorities the following spring.
© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Warham]

Can I get a Cliff Notes version of that post?

It's too fuckin' long to read through that shit, and I'm wondering why you did as well.

Everybody here is giving McVeigh more time than he deserves.

[FORD]

I don't have time to read all of that right now either, but I'm guessing that "Elohim City" is somewhere in Utah?

[DrMaddVibe]

I'm sure that in his post Lil' Nicky has the phrase that links McVeigh to his Christian upbringing and he made a crap bomb to blow up a federal building because they attacked a religious compound in Texas, oh and killed some people in Idaho because they were selling tanks and cannons or some other bullshit along those lines....eh Lil' Nicky?

Show us the article that links it all together so in your perverse mind it'll make the Christians the bad guys and the fundamentalist terrorists the good guys.

C'mon....liberals everywhere are hinged on your every cut and paste job!

[FORD]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I'm sure that in his post Lil' Nicky has the phrase that links McVeigh to his Christian upbringing and he made a crap bomb to blow up a federal building because they attacked a religious compound in Texas, oh and killed some people in Idaho because they were selling tanks and cannons or some other bullshit along those lines....eh Lil' Nicky?

Show us the article that links it all together so in your perverse mind it'll make the Christians the bad guys and the fundamentalist terrorists the good guys.

C'mon....liberals everywhere are hinged on your every cut and paste job!

Randy Weaver was a Nazi who was involved in illegal arms selling, and David Koresh was a baby raper who thought he was Jesus Christ. Neither was a Christian and neither was blameless in what happenned to them.

[DrMaddVibe]

Fundamentalism.

Can I get an amen in the house that anything to its degree is a bad thing?

We're all on board?

[FORD]

I think everybody can amen that. Except maybe Warham ;)

[Warham]

I don't know if the word is used in it's proper context sometimes.

I believe a fundamental Christian is one who follows the Bible very strictly, not somebody who's ready to bomb an abortion clinic.

The way you are using it, yes, I will agree with you.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by FORD
I think everybody can amen that. Except maybe Warham ;) LOL and AMEN!

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't know if the word is used in it's proper context sometimes.

I believe a fundamental Christian is one who follows the Bible very strictly, not somebody who's ready to bomb an abortion clinic.



The literal meaning of "fundamentalist Christian" should be one who lives by the teachings of Christ. Just as a fundamentalist Muslim should live by the teachings of Mohammad.

Unfortunately and ironically, the term is commonly used to refer to the right wing fanatics (in either religion) who do just the opposite. :(

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Can I get a Cliff Notes version of that post?

It's too fuckin' long to read through that shit, and I'm wondering why you did as well.

Everybody here is giving McVeigh more time than he deserves.

You know I should have cut it down...But I figured it was double-spaced so it looked longer than it is, but it's just double-spaced AND fookin' long!

But you might need to read it in chpaters like a novel. That's what I'm doing.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I'm sure that in his post Lil' Nicky has the phrase that links McVeigh to his Christian upbringing and he made a crap bomb to blow up a federal building because they attacked a religious compound in Texas, oh and killed some people in Idaho because they were selling tanks and cannons or some other bullshit along those lines....eh Lil' Nicky?

Show us the article that links it all together so in your perverse mind it'll make the Christians the bad guys and the fundamentalist terrorists the good guys.

C'mon....liberals everywhere are hinged on your every cut and paste job!

McVeigh grew up about 30 miles North of me near Niagara Falls, New York. Pay attention 'VIBE! I posted he was Catholic, as am I, and most of the area in which I live.

But I highlighted the phrase in which the Canadian dickwad NAZI uses references from the BIBLE to rationalize Aryan superiority ignoring the fact that most of the people in the Old Testament (and New) are Jewish!

Uh, whatever ASSVIBE! I think what I was getting at is that ALL religious extremists are potentially dangerous murderers if they believe they can rationalize murder as God's will, and in this case, morph mass-murder into some bizarre notion of self-defense (as the NAZI's did during the Holocaust).

And didn't you just make some cut and paste jobs?

And this passage also answers FORD's question:



ELOHIM CITY - BASE OF OPERATIONS

================================

"When they (the FBI) find out what I've really been doing
the past two years, they'll really be surprised."
--Pete 'Commander Pedro' Langan, 1996


Elohim City is a 400-acre compound located near
Muldrow, Oklahoma, about thirty-five miles northwest of
Fort Smith, Arkansas. It was founded in 1973 by Robert
Millar, a Canadian who preaches that white Anglo-Saxons are
God's chosen people, non-whites are descendants of
pre-Adamic species lower than whites, and Jews are Satan's
children. Two dozen of Millar's 34 grandchildren reside at
Elohim City, making up about a quarter of the resident
population. Elohim City is considered a hotbed of terrorist
activity. In 1983, members of Elohim City plotted to blow
up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building, which is
documented later in this article. Members of the Aryan
Republican Army used the seperatist compound as a base of

operations in the years before the OKC bombing, where they

mingled with other anti-government extremists, likely
including the elusive John Doe #2 suspect.

In 1994, Michael Brescia moved to Elohim City where
he shared a one-story house behind the compound's chapel
with Andreas Strassmeir, a former German army lietenant and
head of security at Elohim City. By the time Brescia left
Elohim City in 1995, investigators say, he, Stedeford,
Guthrie, and McCarthy were active in the Aryan Republican
Army. [4] At least five active members of the Aryan
Republican Army operated out of Elohim City in 1994 and
1995, and each of these members were in direct contact with
Andreas Strassmeir, who is suspected to be John Doe #2.

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by FORD
The literal meaning of "fundamentalist Christian" should be one who lives by the teachings of Christ. Just as a fundamentalist Muslim should live by the teachings of Mohammad.

Unfortunately and ironically, the term is commonly used to refer to the right wing fanatics (in either religion) who do just the opposite. :(

The Baptist snake-handling fanatics are, in retrospect, true purveyors of proper religious fanaticism...in the modern sense.

Sacrificial soccer games in South America never really harmed innocents at large either.

Nothing says crystalline, focused, religious belief like self-destruction or flirting with fucking disaster without harming innocents.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
McVeigh grew up about 30 miles North of me near Niagara Falls, New York. Pay attention 'VIBE! I posted he was Catholic, as am I, and most of the area in which I live.

But I highlighted the phrase in which the Canadian dickwad NAZI uses references from the BIBLE to rationalize Aryan superiority ignoring the fact that most of the people in the Old Testament (and New) are Jewish!

Uh, whatever ASSVIBE! I think what I was getting at is that ALL religious extremists are potentially dangerous murderers if they believe they can rationalize murder as God's will, and in this case, morph mass-murder into some bizarre notion of self-defense (as the NAZI's did during the Holocaust).

And didn't you just make some cut and paste jobs?

And this passage also answers FORD's question:

Are you plotting to blow up a federal building? The similarities are there per your post. McVeigh could've been from Anytown USA. The fact that he was supposedly brought up Catholic doesn't change the fact that he blew up a building killing people in the name of revenge not in the name of the Lord.

I posted a defination of a word. A word that EVERYONE but YOU understands. It applies to him and to the 9-11 terrorists. That's what I've been saying the ENTIRE time! Only now do you realize just how freaking stupid you come off!

What other broad strokes are you going to use to paint whatever synapses fire off in your mind Lil' Nicky?

Don't lecture me in a basic understanding of the Holy Bible either. You're not equipped to explain your own actions much less the word of God!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Are you plotting to blow up a federal building? The similarities are there per your post. McVeigh could've been from Anytown USA. The fact that he was supposedly brought up Catholic doesn't change the fact that he blew up a building killing people in the name of revenge not in the name of the Lord.[.b]


Yeah ASSVIBE, that's why I posted a thread essentially attacking murders and their myriad of motives behind it. He was not merely acting out of 'revenge,' that may have been a catalyst for his actions. But he was clearly acting out a greater ideological imperative. I suppose he hung out with the ARA guys and fails to mentions this in any interview is clear proof he is not admitting the full spectrum of his true intentions. But liars believe lies, so keep quoting his interviews fool.


[b]I posted a defination of a word. A word that EVERYONE but YOU understands. It applies to him and to the 9-11 terrorists. That's whatiI've been saying the ENTIRE time! Only now do you realize just how freaking stupid you come off!

I know you are a bit of a simpleton ASSVIBE, you never shown yourself to be anything but a linear thinking buffoon capable of little more than 'Democrats Suck' posts, but try to read a little more than you own cut and pastes and whatever you can google. I also posted a definition that most people here get. But you choose to ignore the lapses in your own education.


What other broad strokes are you going to use to paint whatever synapses fire off in your mind Lil' Nicky?

Do you have a college education ASSVIBE, did you actually acquire that degree in Philosophy, or couldn't you get along with the professors?


Don't lecture me in a basic understanding of the Holy Bible either. You're not equipped to explain your own actions much less the word of God!

I never 'lectured' you on any such thing. But somebody really should; because if you actually consider yourself a Christan, well, LMAO! Keep riffing how smart you are ASSVIBE; then post another simple-minded 'political cartoon' from one of your reactionary sources.

Oh and 'Ms.SADDVIBE, before you call me out on my statements, at least be man enough to take responsibilty for your own! Otherwise you just come off as a right-wing sycophant pussy trying to show the world how tough he is! Much like Jeff Gannon! What are you compensating for Ms.SADDVIBE?;) Oh, and and have a nice day!

[DrMaddVibe]

Lil' Nicky, its a flat out shame that you type up a thread like this and then defend it to your last breath(like I stated you would!).

Your assumptions into my life are your personal opinions and mean very little to me. If goofing on me makes you feel better for broad stroking Christians as terrorists then please, by all means carry on with your absurd sense of reality.

You call McVeigh a liar but only because you truly know how a liar's mind operates. Lil' Nicky, you're the liar here.

Keep on reaching for something to give you any credibility. On this topic you don't have any! I'd go so far as to say on 80% of your drivel posts that you don't too! If anything you make me laugh. I pity you. I hope you can educate yourself and I hope you can someday admit when you're wrong.

Until then, keep up with the bullshit, because that's EXACTLY what it is!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Lil' Nicky, its a flat out shame that you type up a thread like this and then defend it to your last breath(like I stated you would!).

Your assumptions into my life are your personal opinions and mean very little to me. If goofing on me makes you feel better for broad stroking Christians as terrorists then please, by all means carry on with your absurd sense of reality.

You call McVeigh a liar but only because you truly know how a liar's mind operates. Lil' Nicky, you're the liar here.

Keep on reaching for something to give you any credibility. On this topic you don't have any! I'd go so far as to say on 80% of your drivel posts that you don't too! If anything you make me laugh. I pity you. I hope you can educate yourself and I hope you can someday admit when you're wrong.

Until then, keep up with the bullshit, because that's EXACTLY what it is!

Struck a nerve there did I? Too bad we can't rehash your deleted bullshit to show the world how you truly embody the teachings of Christ (irony alert!). Or perhaps you do so only when it's convenient? Just keep making the same post over and over and then, maybe--just maybe, it will be true ASSVIBE!

How fucking dare you tell me to admit I'm wrong?! Again, pot-->MOTHER FUCKING TEA KETTLE! You have the least credability than anyone after your past statements. I mean the Tsunami got rid of all those little OSAMA lovers eh ASSVIBE? I mean, how dare I post a donation-link thread where people can donate, or not, to a relief fund?! Oh the motherfucking outrage you had over that! Where was JESUS then ASSVIBE? Don't even bring up anything religious to me PUSSYVIBE! Because you're nothing but a joke here. And even your Conservative friends know that. WARHAM, CATHEDRAL, FORD, ELVIS, and maybe even BIGBAD can perhaps call me out on this; you are nothing but a phoney, shit-stirring little troll-- so just shut the fuck up, mmmkay?! ;)

Don't like my posts/threads, then turn off the fucking internet and go a few rounds of golf! No one is twisting your arm oh hero of America! Until then, I am going to call you out as nothing more than a phoney, hypocrite pussy! And you'll take it bitch!

[Cathedral]

People should be judged by their actions, not their labels.
There is a great famine upon the earth but it's not one based on a lack of food and water, it is a famine of truth.

For those who doubt the word of God and as a result choose to discount historical and biblical fact, i say this.

Thomas, the apostle, doubted the ressurection of Jesus when everyone was buzzing that he had risen and discounted claims that he was being seen by people all over town.
He stated he would have to actually put his fingers through the wounds of Jesus to believe, you know the rest of that story.

The point is, doubt is healthy as in the case of "Doubting Thomas" (talk about a name that stuck), God gave us a brain and he expects us to use it.
He doesn't expect us to follow man, he expects us to follow his only begotten Son who died so that we should never parish but have everlasting life.
The Church's of today have a reaction to doubt, and it is a negative reaction as opposed to understanding that asking questions is the only path to finding the truth.

I Thessolonians 5:21 "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good"

God doesn't want and never has wanted man to blindly believe what is taught to them by tradition. He wants us to seek the truth that is currently hidden from everyone so that when he does return we will know immediately who he is.
This is a time i expect to see everyone including myself drop to the knee's and worship his Holy Name.
Jesus will bring with him 7 candelsticks that represent the 7 churches, but only two of those churches will find acceptance. that means that Hell is going to be filled, no, it will be over flowing with people who thought they were "Christians"....But it is their actions that will determine how they are judged, not their label.

You see it in our own country every single day now. distortion of facts in the media and among our elected officials, distortions of the words in scripture, it's a famine that will do far more damage than not having food or water for the flesh body.
Remember, there is going to be a great "Rapture" where all God's children will be swept away before the tribulation.....or so they think, those that can't count anyway.

Sorry folks, but it is not going to be that easy which kind of makes the view of the athiest seem attractive, right?
Maybe for now, while your still breathing, but you'd better seek the truth for yourself and learn to question EVERYTHING you have been programmed to think.

Just read this post, don't reply to it, just think about it and ask yourself the first of many questions you should be asking, and that is, Are you the perfect Tape Recorder you were manufactured to be?.

Anyone, and i mean ANY SOUL who thinks that killing is an action that can be executed in the name of God is not a "Christian", i don't care what they call themselves.
The Koran speaks against suicide as being an unforgivable sin, let's not even try to add how it is percieved when in the name of Allah that sin takes more lives than the one taking his own.
It is no more or less man's manipulation of what was actually written, and almost all faith's have more in common than they do not, except for those manipulations of man and his own screwed up doctrines based on factless tradition.

We have all been taken to the water, only the one's who don't drink will fall over from dehydration, not the one's that do drink it but only after proving to themselves that it is actually water.

Just something to think about, take care......................

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
People should be judged by their actions, not their labels....

Anyone, and i mean ANY SOUL who thinks that killing is an action that can be executed in the name of God is not a "Christian", i don't care what they call themselves.
The Koran speaks against suicide as being an unforgivable sin, let's not even try to add how it is percieved when in the name of Allah that sin takes more lives than the one taking his own.
It is no more or less man's manipulation of what was actually written, and almost all faith's have more in common than they do not, except for those manipulations of man and his own screwed up doctrines based on factless tradition.

We have all been taken to the water, only the one's who don't drink will fall over from dehydration, not the one's that do drink it but only after proving to themselves that it is actually water.

Just something to think about, take care......................

Excellent post CAT, as usual. A thinking post from a thinking man! You take care as well!

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Struck a nerve there did I? Too bad we can't rehash your deleted bullshit to show the world how you truly embody the teachings of Christ (irony alert!). Or perhaps you do so only when it's convenient? Just keep making the same post over and over and then, maybe--just maybe, it will be true ASSVIBE!

How fucking dare you tell me to admit I'm wrong?! Again, pot-->MOTHER FUCKING TEA KETTLE! You have the least credability than anyone after your past statements. I mean the Tsunami got rid of all those little OSAMA lovers eh ASSVIBE? I mean, how dare I post a donation-link thread where people can donate, or not, to a relief fund?! Oh the motherfucking outrage you had over that! Where was JESUS then ASSVIBE? Don't even bring up anything religious to me PUSSYVIBE! Because you're nothing but a joke here. And even your Conservative friends know that. WARHAM, CATHEDRAL, FORD, ELVIS, and maybe even BIGBAD can perhaps call me out on this; you are nothing but a phoney, shit-stirring little troll-- so just shut the fuck up, mmmkay?! ;)

Don't like my posts/threads, then turn off the fucking internet and go a few rounds of golf! No one is twisting your arm oh hero of America! Until then, I am going to call you out as nothing more than a phoney, hypocrite pussy! And you'll take it bitch!

Struck a nerve? Were you trying to? Was that your intention? No, you're more like a mosquito to me. A little insignificant buzzing in my ear!

Blood pressure Lil' Nicky!

Watch it, you're unstable.

You want to ramble about tsunami's and Osama when this isn't about them...is it? No sense living in a past that we can't reference to actually see what was said or not said. You've proven within this thread that you skew anything to fit a personal agenda. Its a shame too, because I'm positive that if it were possible you'd be proven a liar on your assumptions now too!

As for where is Jesus, well you're a Catholic. I don't know if you practice what you preach(and I don't care!), but your other posts don't show it! You exhibit a lunacy towards political and religious topics. If you're looking for Jesus keep searching...that is if you're really looking. If you mean some omni-present higher power that dictates every move you make then you've missed the point and you've failed in your concepts of God and religion.

You are wrong on the title of this thread.

The only thing I'll take off of you is the humor you provide me when you become unhinged and rant away like some Mad Max character of the internet. Everyone here has met and dealt with little minded kids that act tough because they have a computer and a connection to the internet. You are their patron saint.

[Cathedral]

Well, for the record and the sake of an honest debate, Tim McVeigh did consider himself a Christian.
But again, it isn't abut the title or label, it is about the actions and his were not the actions of a Christian.

When it comes to Terrorism i also don't buy into the idea that one single race or nationality of people are responsible.
They have come from all walks of life, the only common link is that they are all twisted in the ideology that motivates them which seperates them from what is actually written.

The lines are only skewed when people apply their own understanding to faith issues.

It's all about the Traditions of man, and as i have stated before, the Hebrew meaning for that word means "nothing useful".

Attacking each other will get this discussion absolutely nowhere and leave everyone exactly where they started, filled with contempt and hatred for one another and the truth will remain ellusive.

[DrMaddVibe]

Cat...did you read this from the beginning?


Just wondering.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Struck a nerve? Were you trying to? Was that your intention? No, you're more like a mosquito to me. A little insignificant buzzing in my ear!

Blood pressure Lil' Nicky!

Watch it, you're unstable.

You want to ramble about tsunami's and Osama when this isn't about them...is it? No sense living in a past that we can't reference to actually see what was said or not said. You've proven within this thread that you skew anything to fit a personal agenda. Its a shame too, because I'm positive that if it were possible you'd be proven a liar on your assumptions now too!

As for where is Jesus, well you're a Catholic. I don't know if you practice what you preach(and I don't care!), but your other posts don't show it! You exhibit a lunacy towards political and religious topics. If you're looking for Jesus keep searching...that is if you're really looking. If you mean some omni-present higher power that dictates every move you make then you've missed the point and you've failed in your concepts of God and religion.

You are wrong on the title of this thread.

The only thing I'll take off of you is the humor you provide me when you become unhinged and rant away like some Mad Max character of the internet. Everyone here has met and dealt with little minded kids that act tough because they have a computer and a connection to the internet. You are their patron saint.

Mad Max! Now that's a complement! You're my friend again 'VIBE!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Cat...did you read this from the beginning?


Just wondering.

Are you going to form his opinion now 'VIBE? Just wondering. Who's 'unhinged' again?

[Cathedral]

Yeah, actually i did read it all.
But arguing with each other about things we cannot change is an exercise in futility.

We should all however be concerned for our brothers and sisters here on earth, friend and foe alike.

I'm just a guy who is standing at the well with the rest of you, wondering if it contains actual water or not.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral

I'm just a guy who is standing at the well with the rest of you, wondering if it contains actual water or not.

You're getting all 'Kung Fu' style Zen on us Cricket!:D :cool:

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Cathedral


I'm just a guy who is standing at the well with the rest of you, wondering if it contains actual water or not.

I can assure you that it's Kool-Aid, generously donated to us by the lovely residents of Jonestown.

Salud!

[Cathedral]

Oh, and before i take off, I just want to point out that i read the thread title as having a strong note of sarcasm to it.

What i ultimately got from it was saddnes that yet another person has successfully given a bad rap to believers, meaning McVeigh, not you, Nick.
I am not surrounded by people in my church that support any extreme views of christianity that requires anything more than love and understanding for those who see things differently.
I'm not ordained, and don't want to be either as that is just another form of tradition to me.
I know people outside the church and in my own family who have extensive educations from seminaries that when talking to them all i feel is pity that they have been programmed as opposed to enlightened.
But boy can they sure quote that scripture, that is until i put a single question to them that they get offended at and look at me as though i blasphemed.
Thing is, they can't answer my questions and walk away rebuking me if i do it for them.
9 times out of 10 the only way their beliefs hold water is if they take things out of context and twist it to fit.
I tend to prove everything before i believe it or i am happy to drop it like a hot rock, it's that simple. and just because some highly educated and programmed individual put falsehoods in their heads, that doesn't have any value to me.

I pretty much stay away from TV Preachers, their motivations are all too clear to me and guess where they got their faith?
At a Bible College of course, and what is any College heavily involved in? You guessed it, Tradition.
One cannot lead from behind another, unless he is no leader at all and those who aren't leading are doing what?
Exactly, they are merely following a leader you hven't been introduced to yet.
There will be one hell of a meet and greet on Satans porch i tell ya, pun intended...............

[Guitar Shark]

Cat, you have been making a lot of stellar posts lately.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Are you going to form his opinion now 'VIBE? Just wondering. Who's 'unhinged' again?


I'm not forming anything.

You already tried that with the title of this thread!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by academic punk
I can assure you that it's Kool-Aid, generously donated to us by the lovely residents of Jonestown.

Salud!

Jim Jones was a whack-job, so much that i never understood for a moment why he had a single follower.

He reminded me of Elvis Presley, but the clue he was a loon was in the fact that he was not humbled before the Lord.
I clearly remember the News covering his little Festival prior to the refreshments being passed around.

The aftermath simply shocked me, i mean there are really millions of people searching for salvation, so much they get lost out of desperation.

This is not the well of water i am speaking of, however.... ;)

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Cat, you have been making a lot of stellar posts lately.

And thank you for saying so, I appreciate that a great deal... ;)

[tobinentinc]

I'm not sure if im repeating anyone here, but here's what i heard: Upon hearing the news of the attack, Mr. Clinton was heard saying:<b>"I hope it's not middle eastern". </b>

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by tobinentinc
I'm not sure if im repeating anyone here, but here's what i heard: Upon hearing the news of the attack, Mr. Clinton was heard saying:<b>"I hope it's not middle eastern". </b>

A lot of people assumed it was. in fact I heard something along the lines that law enforcement was looking for Arabic men in the area shortly after the blast.

So what? What's your point?

[SweetSecrets]

Ah, Mr. Fresh Nick....

Remember that there are alot of Christans who call themselves "Christian," or better yet, THINK they are Christian....however, my friend, this could never be more far from the truth.

As a Christian, myself, I often think evil disguises itself behind the good Christian name to make Christians seem like the FUCKED up ones.

LIKE THOSE CRAZY DUDES ON TV WHO HYPNOTIZE FOR JESUS TO HEAL YOU! OR EVEN THE HELL FIRE RANTING BABTISTS (Not all Babtists...but you know the one's im referring to! A.K.A: nearly snake handlers). To me, they are spawns of Satan....making the unbelievers run EVEN farther away from Christ then they EVER did before.

A true Christian could never be a terrorist....or think that such actions are from God.

God is much more simple....LOVE.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
Ah, Mr. Fresh Nick....

Remember that there are alot of Christans who call themselves "Christian," or better yet, THINK they are Christian....however, my friend, this could never be more far from the truth.

As a Christian, myself, I often think evil disguises itself behind the good Christian name to make Christians seem like the FUCKED up ones.

LIKE THOSE CRAZY DUDES ON TV WHO HYPNOTIZE FOR JESUS TO HEAL YOU! OR EVEN THE HELL FIRE RANTING BABTISTS (Not all Babtists...but you know the one's im referring to! A.K.A: nearly snake handlers). To me, they are spawns of Satan....making the unbelievers run EVEN farther away from Christ then they EVER did before.

A true Christian could never be a terrorist....or think that such actions are from God.

God is much more simple....LOVE.

Words of wisdom, My child. But verily, why would I surprised, coming from one named Mary? :)

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Words of wisdom, My child. But verily, why would I surprised, coming from one named Mary? :)

Thank you Saviour!

Say hello to your mother for me.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
Ah, Mr. Fresh Nick....

Remember that there are alot of Christans who call themselves "Christian," or better yet, THINK they are Christian....however, my friend, this could never be more far from the truth.

As a Christian, myself, I often think evil disguises itself behind the good Christian name to make Christians seem like the FUCKED up ones.

LIKE THOSE CRAZY DUDES ON TV WHO HYPNOTIZE FOR JESUS TO HEAL YOU! OR EVEN THE HELL FIRE RANTING BABTISTS (Not all Babtists...but you know the one's im referring to! A.K.A: nearly snake handlers). To me, they are spawns of Satan....making the unbelievers run EVEN farther away from Christ then they EVER did before.

A true Christian could never be a terrorist....or think that such actions are from God.

God is much more simple....LOVE.

I couldn not agree more. Those that kill innocents are surley not of God.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Don't cry Nick.

You thought your cute little title would stick and it doesn't. I suppose you thought your anti-Christian friends would pop in and defend you. Who knows and who cares. Why you? Because you wrote it! Then you defended it! You went out of your way to paint me as a medicated loon and finally in your last post you got what I said on the page 1! Took you awhile but you got there.

Anything fundamentalist is wrong.

Nobody is slamming Muslims here. I'm smart enough to know a Muslim from an Islamic fundamentalist any day. The thing that I can't stand is the quiet front the put on when someone Muslim (and a fundamentalist!) blows up a building or themselves on a bus. Almost like they're down with it. If they weren't you'd think there would be a huge public outcry. It comes days later usually. The backlash towards Muslims here in the US...has there been any? Have we reached 3000?

McVeigh has NEVER stated in any article or book that I've read that his actions were the cause or result of his religious background or being. It has and always is that he despised the US government for using military-like force upon its citizens.

BTW Ms.MaddVibe, I noticed that you never refer to Mcveigh as a "terrorist" or "murderer" in this thread, in fact, if I didn't --oogily googily-- know better, I'd swear you had some sympathy for his "actions" or "mission" as you call it. Do we have anti-gov't militia sympathies?

Just always wondered...

BTW, I never used the word "Christian Fundamentalist" in this thread, you did,~FTR~