Democrats and dictators

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  • John Ashcroft
    Veteran
    • Jan 2004
    • 2127

    Democrats and dictators

    WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Two years ago, former President Jimmy Carter traveled to Havana to break bread with the Dean of Dictators, Fidel Castro -- for 45 years the brutal ruler of Cuba's island paradise. While there, Carter not only embraced a despot responsible for torturing and repressing his people -- but took time to denounce his own country, saying the United States "is hardly perfect in human rights."

    I've got an idea, let's give him the Nobel Peace Prize!...

    Castro was one of the few tyrants who failed to grace William Jefferson Blythe Clinton's social calendar, though Clinton made it a habit to meet regularly with the Dictator-of-the-Month while in office. Yasser Arafat visited 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. no less than 11 times. Be it Fidel Castro, Yasser Arafat or former Soviet dictator Mikhail Gorbachev, it seems American liberals crave the affection of brutal authoritarians whose regimes have brought nothing but agony and cruelty to their people.

    Last week is a case study in liberal support for dictators. First, it was none other than Saddam Hussein. Despite numerous reports of the Iraqi dictator's bloody atrocities, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton felt it necessary to speak up on his behalf -- commending his treatment of women!

    Could Mrs. Rodham be unaware of the mass graves containing the bodies of thousands of Iraqi women and their children, documented by Fox News and others? Is she oblivious of reports showing that during Saddam's reign of terror, more than 200 women were beheaded and their families were forced to display their severed skulls on stakes in front of their homes? Hasn't the junior senator from New York heard of the thousands of women who were raped by members of Saddam's family and the Iraqi security services? How did she miss the photos and videotape of Iraqi women and girls who had been singled out for beatings and torture with hot branding?

    But maybe those things don't matter to Clinton. In a speech to the Brookings Institute last week, she described Saddam as "an equal opportunity oppressor," and then went on to lament the heady days under his watch when Iraqi women "went to school, they participated in the professions, they participated in government and business." "And," this liberal champion of women's rights pointed out, "as long as (Iraqi women) stayed out of (Saddam's) way, they had considerable freedom of movement."

    Mrs. Rodham went on to condemn the U.S.-lead coalition efforts to build democracy overnight in Iraq. But, she praised the United Nations' 12-year-long attempts to "nurture democratic movements" in the Balkans, something she defended as a "time-taking task." She failed to mention that the Balkan operation costs more than $1.5 billion per year.

    The so-called mainstream media ignored Clinton's unconscionable defense of Saddam, her denunciation of U.S. efforts in Iraq and her praise for the U.N. Perhaps that's because there was another dictator in trouble who needed them more: Haitian tyrant, Jean Bertrand Aristide.

    On Feb. 29, Aristide, who was restored to power by his friend Bill Clinton, decided he ought to get out of Port-Au-Prince before the people he had been repressing for 10 years dragged him out of his palace. The petty tyrant, whose mental stability has long been questioned, asked for, and received, security from U.S. Marines so that he could get to the capital city's airport and flee to Africa. Once safely there, Aristide called a press conference and claimed he was "kidnapped" at gunpoint and "forced to leave" Haiti. Resorting to hyperbole and dramatics, he went on to say that armed forces "came at night ... there were too many, I couldn't count them."

    True to the axiom that no despot is too dirty for a liberal to defend, Sen. John Kerry, who called the U.S. military's rescue of 804 medical students off the island of Grenada "a bully's show of force," is now demanding a congressional investigation of Aristide's claims that he was taken against his will, at gunpoint, in the middle of the night and forced to go someplace he didn't want to go.

    In fairness, presidential candidate Kerry admits: "I don't know the truth of it. I really don't," but he thinks "it needs to explored" because he has a "friend in Massachusetts who talked directly to people who have made that allegation." That ought to be enough evidence to launch a multimillion dollar congressional investigation.

    Candidate Kerry is backed up by members of the Congressional Black Caucus, who are in high dudgeon that there is one less dictator in the world from whom they will receive party invitations. "I am especially concerned," said Rep. Maxine Waters, "by the possibility that the U.S. government may have armed and trained the former military officers and death squad leaders who carried out last Sunday's coup."

    Those sentiments were echoed by none other than John Kerry's daughter. "I believe this administration just helped overthrow, basically overthrow, a democratically elected president," said Vanessa Kerry. "We basically, in our silence, allowed him to be deposed."

    But we're to remain silent on Saddam?

    Forget that it took days for Secretary of State Colin Powell to find Aristide a home, before the Central African Union reluctantly agreed to take him in. The dictator was in the country for less than a day before he had his phone privileges revoked and government officials were trying to ship him elsewhere. "He's already started to embarrass us," Minister Parfait Mbaye said of Aristide. "He's scarcely been here 24 hours and he's causing problems for Central African diplomacy."

    But that doesn't stop liberals from coming to Aristide's support. Jesse Jackson went right to work to get Aristide on the phone with American reporters who would print his tale of woe. Though welcome mats are being pulled from under Aristide's feet all over the world, Jackson demands that the United States grant him asylum.

    Former Rep. Ron Dellums, Haiti's representative in Washington, said his advice to the administration was, to "be part of a political solution," because Dellums alleges, "you guys (the United States) are the 800-pound gorilla." Interesting that Dellums would refer to his own country and own government as "you guys" instead of choosing to say, "we" or "us."

    But that's the problem, isn't it? Liberals who support dictators like Castro, Hussein and Aristide don't see themselves as one of "us" when it comes to America. That's why they seem to like dictators more than democracy. Perhaps that's why so many of them clamored to have little Elian Gonzalez ripped from a relative's arms in Miami and shipped back to a dictator.

    Link: here
  • steve
    Sniper
    • Feb 2004
    • 841

    #2
    Well, I consider myself liberal but the philosophy has nothing to do with propping up dictators.

    The Bush family are practically butt buddies with the Saudi Royal Family.

    now tell me...has the Saudi Arabian government been a paragon of human rights?

    Furthermore, wasn't it Bill Clinton who used the bully pulpit of the US to force out bastards like Milosovic?

    Shit. The Bush Sr. administration practically INSTALLED The Taliban and Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan.

    It works both ways.

    Comment

    • John Ashcroft
      Veteran
      • Jan 2004
      • 2127

      #3
      I'll let Lucky handle this light work.

      Comment

      • steve
        Sniper
        • Feb 2004
        • 841

        #4
        anyway, to expand on what I said...

        Oli North holds Mikhail Gorbechev (MIKHAIL GORBECHEV!!!) - the man almost single-handedly responsible for ending the brutal dictatorship of the Soviet Union as a "brutal dictator"????

        Is he smoking crack?

        I really don't know where to begin.

        Reagan certainly disagres with him - that's all I'll say.

        Also, to fault Bill Clinton for engaging the Israel-Palistinian issue and presiding over diplomacy that resulted in almost no suicide bombings for the last 5 years of his presidency...

        And to fault Hillary Clinton for making a statement that even President BUSH agrees with - that is, we must not let Islamic extremist dictatorship take over and oppress women in Iraq...which is happening to a small degree right now. Please, I am really f'in' confused. Explain how anyone is against this that isn't a wife-beating woman-opresser religious nutball?

        like I said, he's making all these outrageous accusations with NOTHING to back it up with and I don't know where to begin.

        So I'll keep it short and sweet...
        Oli North is a moron. Although he was smart enough to make a career out of being a fall guy, I'll give him that . But the fact is he got a talk show merely because he is a celebrity - much like Magic Johnson. Coem to think of it, doesn't he have Sheena Easton on drums?
        Last edited by steve; 03-06-2004, 11:44 AM.

        Comment

        • Viking
          Veteran
          • Jan 2004
          • 1774

          #5
          Originally posted by John Ashcroft:
          I'll let Lucky handle this light work.
          Heeheehahahahaha..........he hasn't shown up yet, but it'll be interesting.

          Comment

          • ELVIS
            Banned
            • Dec 2003
            • 44120

            #6
            He showed up.. he saw Steve's posts and vomited...

            Comment

            • ELVIS
              Banned
              • Dec 2003
              • 44120

              #7
              Originally posted by steve
              Well, I consider myself liberal.

              The Bush family are practically butt buddies with the Saudi Royal Family.
              Explain your stance...

              Comment

              • BigBadBrian
                TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                • Jan 2004
                • 10625

                #8
                Originally posted by steve
                Well, I consider myself liberal but the philosophy has nothing to do with propping up dictators.

                The Bush family are practically butt buddies with the Saudi Royal Family.

                As a liberal, you should have no problems with butt buddies, right? Hmmm? :p
                “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                Comment

                • John Ashcroft
                  Veteran
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 2127

                  #9
                  Lucky's like a internet library for discrediting liberal spin. I really should benchmark more of his pages since they seem to be needed time and time again. If his stomach isn't well enough to punk this boy by tonight, I'll step up.

                  Comment

                  • steve
                    Sniper
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 841

                    #10
                    Bush's Dirty Little Secret






                    Ever since the attacks of September 11th the Bush administration has been saying that America is under attack by terrorist bent on destroying our way of life. They attack us, Bush says, because they hate our freedoms. His administration continues to drum that message into the heads of the populous because it is scary and scared Americans don't like changing presidents.




                    But Al Qaeda isn't interested in attacking the United States to destroy our freedoms or way of life. They know very well that they can't bring down this country and have no desire to do so. The goal of Al Qaeda is to topple the Saudi royal family. And one way to do that is to scare away their friends, namely the US.




                    It is common knowledge that the Saudi royal family is composed of a bunch of despots who have absolute control over the people. They routinely torture not only their own citizens but foreigners as well. They subjugate women just like the Taliban and rule as ruthlessly as Saddam did. So why are we not attacking them? Why are we such big supporters of an awful regime?




                    It is no surprise that most of the highjackers of 9/11 were Saudis. They took their war against the Saudi royal family to the US to scare us into severing our ties with the regime. It didn't work and probably won't work. We are a nation dependent on oil and we need that Saudi oil or our economy, and our real way of life, collapses.




                    But this story goes deeper than just oil. It goes to the unusual close family relationship of the Bush family and the Saudi royal family including the Bin ladens. That's right; George W and the rest of the Bush family are very close personal friends of the Bin laden family. Just after the 9/11 attacks when all aircraft were ordered out of the skies, George W Bush allowed the Bin laden family to fly all over the country picking up other Bin ladens to whisk them out of the country. This administration blocked all efforts by the FBI to interview the family of the man responsible for murdering 3,000 of our citizens.




                    Bush Sr. has close financial ties to the Bin Laden family and has for many decades. The Bin ladens invested heavily in the Carlyle group. George Sr. sits on the board of this supposed think tank. What the Carlyle group does is help the Republican Party consolidate power in the US by consolidating power worldwide. The ties between the Bush Family, Saudis and the Bin ladens extend to many other financial deals. And don't think the Taliban leaders were left out of the power party - they were invited to the Crawford Texas Ranch back in the 1980s after the Soviets were long gone. Why would the Bush family invite the Taliban to dinner? Oil - that's why. The Bush family had financial interests in building an oil and gas pipline from the Caspian sea to the Meditteranean sea via Afghanistan. They didn't care about the policies of the Taliban then and George Bush dosen't give a damn about thier policies now. It's all about power and oil. How about those beans Sean Hannity. Explain that one away Bill O'Reilly!




                    When George W finally stopped cowering in some bunker on 9/11 and returned to Washington he had a visitor come to the White House to share in a stress-relieving cigar on the Truman balcony. That man was Prince Bandar of the Saudi family. The Prince and George W. are close friends - both in the oil business.




                    Why would the Bush family want such close ties to the Saudis? Well it is all about oil and power. In light of our nation's addiction to oil the Bush family is the equivilant of the world's biggest dope pusher. They know that control, or at least a good deal of influence, over the world's oil means power. To keep their feet wet in oil means they can influence the power structure in America by controlling he main source of energy used inthe world. Remember, there is still another Bush boy who wants to run for President. The Bush family wants to create a dynasty, to elevate their family above all others. To achieve this they must be in a position of power not only in the US - but the world. And that my friend is just what has happened.




                    Al Qaeda attacked us because men who have a radical interpretation of the Koran are leading the movement to return the Arabian peninsula back to it's medieval roots. We are the Saudis biggest supporters and for that we paid the price in 3,000 lives and will continue to pay that price. But the Bush family doesn't want us to think about that. They want us to believe that we, and our values, are under attack and thus we must be scared and fight the good fight against terrorism.

                    Comment

                    • steve
                      Sniper
                      • Feb 2004
                      • 841

                      #11

                      Comment

                      • steve
                        Sniper
                        • Feb 2004
                        • 841

                        #12
                        I would add to this article that I believe the Bush's cozy relations with the Saudi Royal Family leads not to an "either/or" proposition as to the roots of our war with Al Queda. There is a generation of conflict between the cultures on both sides - and there are also historical divides such as the crusades and the Jewish/Arab conflict. Plus, there is just general stuff like poverty and looking for a scapegoat (in this case the US) to blame one's internal problems on... as well as a class of secularism of the west and the rock of middle Eastern culture, Islam. Plus there is the whole culture of suicidal terrorism within fundamentalist Islam that everyone can agree is a major idea problem.

                        But the Bush family's cozy relations to the Saudis - a repressive dictatorship no different than the Taliban save it's economic savy and oil reserves - is a major conflict of interest in the war on terror no doubt.
                        Last edited by steve; 03-07-2004, 11:55 AM.

                        Comment

                        • steve
                          Sniper
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 841

                          #13
                          Originally posted by BigBadBrian
                          As a liberal, you should have no problems with butt buddies, right? Hmmm? :p
                          No, no problems with it.

                          Just because you and John Ashcroft are riding the bologna pony together doesn't mean I have to.
                          Last edited by steve; 03-07-2004, 11:41 AM.

                          Comment

                          • lucky wilbury

                            #14
                            where to start here. oh the softballs that have been lobbed. lets start with the saudis:

                            there are at least 10,000 princes in saudi arabia. some good some bad. some more liberal some not. so the notion that everyone is bad is that government is a joke besides the brits installed them but thats another topic. as far as bush sr knowing/ working with the "bin lades" obl had at least 56 brothers while his father had at least 11 wives most of them hate him and some have never meet obl. so the idea that anyone who knows or works with a bin laden is a joke since there are so many. hell there wre a ton of them living,working or going to school here in mass. is harvard bad because they were teaching them?

                            clinton and kosovo

                            clinotn didn't get rid of milosovic the population did it itself. they overthrew him not clinton. in fact clinton wanted the kosovo war to stop.it was covered in this thread amoung others:



                            Some top Clinton administration officials wanted to end the Kosovo war abruptly in the summer of 1999, at almost any cost, because the presidential campaign of then-Vice President Al Gore was about to begin, former NATO commander Gen. Wesley K. Clark says in his official papers.

                            "There were those in the White House who said, 'Hey, look, you gotta finish the bombing before the Fourth of July weekend. That's the start of the next presidential campaign season, so stop it. It doesn't matter what you do, just turn it off. You don't have to win this thing, let it lie,' " Clark said in a January 2000 interview with NATO's official historian, four months before leaving the post of supreme allied commander Europe.


                            ------

                            Bush Sr DID NOT install the taliban or bin laden. simple answer with this is the taliban took power in the mid 90's during clintons time. now how was bush sr involved in this? he wasen't as for the myth the cia and or regan/bush sr was involved with obl that is just one of the biggest loads of horseshit ever. for starters things in afghanistan in the 80's with respect to foriegn fighters were run by the pakistanis through the ISI. so in simple terms the ISI created the taliban and obl since they all were non afghans. the ISI in the mid 90's helped install and fund the taliban which is why in simple terms the afghans hate the pakistanis and the taliban. they know who helped prop them up. now we in the 70's and 80's dealt with the afgahns themselves. now it wasen't regans doings that set this up it was a directive from carter:



                            How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
                            Interview of Zbigniew Brzezinski Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76*

                            Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

                            Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

                            Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

                            Brzezinski: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

                            Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

                            Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

                            Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

                            Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

                            Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.

                            Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn't a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.

                            * There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version, and the Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.

                            The above has been translated from the French by Bill Blum author of the indispensible, "Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II" and "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower" Portions of the books can be read at: <http://members.aol.com/superogue/homepage.htm>
                            --------------------------


                            so carter help setup everything with regards to the afghans and the pakistanis. obl and the taliban were handled by the ISI and we covered the afghans. here's a brief article on what happen:

                            404 error - This is not the page you requested - use our search tool or navigate the featured links to reach the Defence information, news and analysis you need


                            Vital intelligence on the Taliban may rest with its prime sponsor – Pakistan’s ISI

                            By Rahul Bedi in New Delhi

                            Pakistan’s sinister Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) remains the key to providing accurate information to the US-led alliance in its war against Osama bin Laden and his Taliban hosts in Afghanistan. Known as Pakistan’s ‘secret army’ and ‘invisible government’, its shadowy past is linked to political assassinations and the smuggling of narcotics as well as nuclear and missile components.

                            The ISI also openly backs the Taliban and fuels the 12-year-old insurgency in northern India’s disputed Kashmir province by ‘sponsoring’ Muslim militant groups and ministering its policy of ‘death by a thousand cuts’ that so effectively drove the Soviets out of Afghanistan and led to their political demise.

                            The goings on behind the ISI’s nondescript headquarters, located behind high walls on Khayban-e-Suharwady avenue in the heart of the capital Islamabad and its operational offices in the adjoining garrison town of Rawalpindi, have dominated Pakistan’s domestic, nuclear and foreign policies – especially those relating to Afghanistan – for over two decades.

                            The ISI chief, Lt Gen Mahmood Ahmed, who was visiting Washington when New York and the Pentagon were attacked, agreed to share desperately needed information about the Taliban with the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and other US security officials. The CIA has well-established links with the ISI, having trained it in the 1980s to ‘run’ Afghan mujahideen (holy Muslim warriors), Islamic fundamentalists from Pakistan as well as Arab volunteers by providing them with arms and logistic support to evict the Soviet occupation of Kabul.

                            The ISI is presently the ‘eyes and ears’ of the US-led covert action to seize Bin Laden from the Taliban, since hundreds of its agents and their Pathan ‘assets’ continue to operate across Afghanistan. Its influence with the Taliban can be gauged from the inclusion of Gen Ahmed in the Pakistani military and diplomatic delegation to the militia’s religious capital, Kandhar, in southern Afghanistan in an attempt to defuse the looming military crisis. The Pakistani delegation appealed to the Taliban, albeit in vain, to hand over Bin Laden to the US, which holds him responsible for the 11 September attacks on the World Trade Center and Washington in which nearly 7000 people are feared to have died.

                            Founded soon after independence in 1948 to collect intelligence in Pakistan-controlled Kashmir and in East Pakistan (later Bangladesh), the ISI was modelled on Savak, the Iranian security agency, and like Savak was trained by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and the SDECE, France’s external intelligence service. The 1979 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan led the CIA, smarting from its retreat from Vietnam, into enhancing the ISI's covert action capabilities by running mujahideen resistance groups against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

                            Former Pakistani president General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq, who was ultimately assassinated along with his ISI chief, expanded the agency’s internal charter by tasking it with collecting information on local religious and political groups opposed to his military regime. Under Gen Zia the ISI’s Internal Political Division reportedly assassinated Shah Nawaz Bhutto, one of the two brothers of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, by poisoning him on the French Riviera in 1985. The aim was to intimidate Miss Bhutto into not returning to Pakistan to direct the multi-party movement for the restoration of democracy, but Miss Bhutto refused to be cowed down and returned home, only to be toppled by the ISI soon after becoming prime minister in 1988.

                            The ISI is believed to have recently formed a secret task force under Gen Ahmed comprising Interior Minister Lt Gen (retd) Moinuddin Haider and Deputy Chief of Army Staff Lt Gen Muzaffar Usmani to ‘destroy’ major political parties and the separatist Mohajir Quami Movement (MQM) in southern Sindh province.

                            This task force has reportedly encouraged not only religious Islamic organisations such as the Jamaat-e-Islami (JeI) and Jamiat-ul-Ulema Islam (JuI) but also sectarian organisations such as the fundamentalist Sipah Sahaba and the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (which are closely linked to the Taliban and Bin Laden) to extend their activities to Sindh. These organisations are believed to have ‘slipped the ISI collar’ and begun recruiting unemployed Sindhi rural youth for the Taliban, posing a threat to Gen Musharraf's co-operation with Washington by formenting jihad against the West.

                            After the ignominious Soviet withdrawal from Kabul in 1989 the ISI, determined to achieve its aim of extending Pakistan's ‘strategic depth’ and creating an Islamic Caliphate by controlling Afghanistan and the Central Asian Republics, began sponsoring a little-known Pathan student movement in Kandhar that emerged as the Taliban. The ISI used funds from Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto's federal government and from overseas Islamic remittances to enrol graduates from thousands of madrassahs (Muslim seminaries) across Pakistan to bolster the Taliban (Islamic students), who were led by the reclusive Mullah Muhammad Omar. Thereafter, through a ruthless combination of bribing Afghanistan’s ruling tribal coalition (which was riven with internecine rivalry), guerrilla tactics and military support the ISI installed the Taliban regime in Kabul in 1996. It then helped to extend its control over 95 per cent of the war-torn country and bolster its military capabilities. The ISI is believed to have posted additional operatives in Afghanistan just before the 11 September attacks in the US.

                            Along with Osama bin Laden, intelligence sources say a number of other infamous names emerged from the 1980s ISI-CIA collaboration in Afghanistan. These included Mir Aimal Kansi, who assassinated two CIA officers outside their office in Langley, Virginia, in 1993, Ramzi Yousef and his accomplices involved in the New York World Trade Center bombing five years later as well as a host of powerful international narcotics smugglers.

                            Opium cultivation and heroin production in Pakistan’s northern tribal belt and neighbouring Afghanistan was also a vital offshoot of the ISI-CIA co-operation. It succeeded not only in turning Soviet troops into addicts, but also in boosting heroin sales in Europe and the US through an elaborate web of well-documented deceptions, transport networks, couriers and payoffs. This, in turn, offset the cost of the decade-long anti-Soviet ‘unholy war’ in Afghanistan.

                            "The heroin dollars contributed largely to bolstering the Pakistani economy, its nuclear programme and enabled the ISI to sponsor its covert operations in Afghanistan and northern India's disputed Kashmir state," according to an Indian intelligence officer. In the 1970s, the ISI had established a division to procure military nuclear and missile technology from abroad, particularly from China and North Korea. They also smuggled in critical nuclear components and know-how from Europe – activities known to the US but ones it chose to turn a blind eye to as Washington’s objective of ‘humiliating’ the Soviet bear remained incomplete.

                            A Director General, always an army officer of the rank of lieutenant general, heads the ISI, which is controlled by Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence and reports directly to the chief of army staff. As the current ISI chief, Gen Ahmed is assisted by three major generals heading the agency’s political, external and administrative divisions, which are divided broadly into eight sections:

                            * Joint Intelligence North: responsible for the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Kashmir insurgency. This section controls the Army of Islam that comprises Osama bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda group and Kashmiri militant groups like the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (banned by the US last week), Lashkar-e-Toiba, Al Badr and Jaissh-e-Mohammad. Lt Gen Mohammad Aziz, presently commanding the Lahore Corps and a former ISI officer, reportedly heads the Army of Islam, which also controls all opium cultivation and heroin refining and smuggling from Pakistani and Afghan territory

                            * Joint Intelligence Bureau: responsible for open sources and human intelligence collection locally and abroad

                            * Joint Counter-Intelligence Bureau: tasked with counter-intelligence activities internally and abroad

                            * Joint Signals Intelligence Bureau: in-charge of all communications intelligence

                            * Joint Intelligence Miscellaneous: responsible for covert actions abroad, particularly those related to the clandestine procurement of nuclear and missile technologies

                            * Joint Intelligence X: looks after administration and accounts

                            * Joint Intelligence Technical: collects all technical intelligence other than communications intelligence for research and development of equipment

                            * The Special Wing: runs the Defence Services Intelligence Academy and liaises with foreign intelligence and security agencies.

                            "The concern now for General Musharraf is whether the ISI will remain loyal to him and provide the US with credible information or continue to pursue its aims of ensuing the Taliban’s continuance in Kabul," said one intelligence officer. The US, he added, will pull out of the region once its objectives have been achieved, but Afghanistan, with its incessant and seemingly irresolute turmoil, will remain Pakistan’s neighbour for good.


                            ------------------


                            so just to sum up anything that dealt with foriegners in the afghan war in the 80's were handled by the pakistanis NOT us. so blame the taliban and and obl on them. although we can blame clinton for not helping out the afghan gov in the the mid 90's when they needed help form the attacking taliban but hats a whole other topinc

                            Comment

                            • steve
                              Sniper
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 841

                              #15
                              posted by Lucky Wilbury...
                              there are at least 10,000 princes in saudi arabia. some good some bad. some more liberal some not. so the notion that everyone is bad is that government is a joke besides the brits installed them but thats another topic. as far as bush sr knowing/ working with the "bin lades" obl had at least 56 brothers while his father had at least 11 wives most of them hate him and some have never meet obl. so the idea that anyone who knows or works with a bin laden is a joke since there are so many. hell there wre a ton of them living,working or going to school here in mass. is harvard bad because they were teaching them?


                              Well...with regards to Harvard; two wrongs does not make a right - so it is kind of an irrelevant question.

                              Also, if a similar question was asked regarding Clinton supporting the Saudi government and royal family, it would still not make Bush Sr. and Bush Jr's administrations right for supporting their totalitarian regimes.

                              With regards to there being good eggs in the totalitarian dictatorship of the ruling Saudi Arabian Royal family - sure there are. But by the same token there were good eggs within the Nazi party in 1930s Germany. It does not change the rules that run the country. You are talking about a country that for two years after 911 would NOT crack down on terrorist funding - it was not until they were bombed themselves that they did anything to help us confront terrorism. It is a country that oppresses women and foreigners ruthlessly. It is a religious dictatorship no different than the Taliban save its propensity for dealing with its oil reserves efficiently. And Bush Sr. and Bush Jr's administrations have befriended that country more than any other US Presidential administrations. And when I say befriending the country - I am referring to the nation state; not simply individuals who happen to reside there. The Bushes, and for that matter Clinton to a lesser extent, in hindsight should not have and should not NOW support this repressive regime. It is changing somewhat - finally - but it does not change the fact that father and son and their administrations have GLEEFULLY supported a repressious society and dictatorship.
                              Last edited by steve; 03-07-2004, 03:34 PM.

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