Pentagon refuses Federal Judge's Order to Release Photos

[LoungeMachine]

Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why

By Greg Mitchell

Published: July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET

NEW YORK

So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

Yesterday, news emerged that lawyers for the Pentagon had refused to cooperate with a federal judge's order to release dozens of unseen photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq by Saturday. The photos were among thousands turned over by the key “whistleblower” in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.

The Pentagon lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material. They had been ordered to do so by a federal judge in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU accused the government Friday of putting another legal roadblock in the way of its bid to allow the public to see the images of the prisoner abuse scandal.

One Pentagon lawyer has argued that they should not be released because they would only add to the humiliation of the prisoners. But the ACLU has said the faces of the victims can easily be "redacted."

To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:

“U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

"’If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,’ Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. ‘I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.’

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

“Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

“Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’

“A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a ‘male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.’

“Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’”

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

[LoungeMachine]

http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590


Link

[FORD]

RELEASE THE PICTURES NOW YOU FASCIST CHILD RAPING CRIMINAL PIECES OF SHIT!!

[LoungeMachine]

I'd like to hear AssVibes and Warpigs defense of witholding these images by The Pentagon

National Security?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I'd like to hear AssVibes and Warpigs defense of witholding these images by The Pentagon

National Security?

Yeah, I thought all prisoners held by Americans were treated to kit gloves and Caribbean resorts with Fruit Loop breakfasts...



This topic is also discussed in this thread (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=615694#post615694), with photos provided.

[Guitar Shark]

Personally, I don't see a compelling reason to release them.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Personally, I don't see a compelling reason to release them.

accountablity?

Personally, I would need a "compelling reason" to withold them counselor

:cool:

[Guitar Shark]

Well, there clearly is a compelling reason to withhold them. We are at war, like it or not. The question is whether that trumps the need to release them. Accountability is one thing... but when the original photos were released and NOTHING happened to Rummy or the Bush Administration other than a few days of bad PR, it's hard to see any point to releasing these new ones for "accountability" purposes.

[Warham]

Hold on guys...

I'm still waiting for the federal government to release all those top secret Project Blue Book files from '47 to '69.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
Hold on guys...

I'm still waiting for the federal government to release all those top secret Project Blue Book files from '47 to '69.

That mere fact you think this is funny is disgusting:mad:


You'd be screaming bloody murder if you had to watch your child be raped, regardless of ws doing it.

:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Who said I thought it was funny?

I'm being serious.

[blueturk]

What a fucking surprise! More deceit in a war that has been based on deception from the start.

[ODShowtime]

I don't know if muslims can get much more pissed at us. Fuck it.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I don't know if muslims can get much more pissed at us. Fuck it.

Muslims?

How about THE ENTIRE WORLD, AND GENERATIONS TO COME ????/



:(

God, I pray it's not true

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
Who said I thought it was funny?

I'm being serious.

whatever:rolleyes:

Yeah, serious :rolleyes:

[blueturk]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I don't know if muslims can get much more pissed at us. Fuck it.

Bush doesn't care how pissed how pissed off anybody is. The SOB probably personally told the Pentagon to defy the order. This administration rivals Nixon for corruption.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by blueturk
Bush doesn't care how pissed how pissed off anybody is. The SOB probably personally told the Pentagon to defy the order. This administration rivals Nixon for corruption.

You're telling me man! Outrages come and go and never any accountability.

Like I said in another thread, most of us can't even see how far we've gone already in the last 4 years.

[blueturk]

Those who forget the past etc.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Personally, I don't see a compelling reason to release them.

I agree, unless we just want to inflame the Arab world further. Screw that silly-assed judge. How dare he think he be allowed to set national defense policy as a one man show.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I agree, unless we just want to inflame the Arab world further. Screw that silly-assed judge. How dare he think he be allowed to set national defense policy as a one man show.

:gulp:

Why don't you hold the idiots that started this war in Iraq as accountable. They're ultimately responsible for this.

[diamondD]

That's a different topic tho. ;)

I think they need to only use them to prosecute for criminal behavior. If they are released, the only purpose they will serve is getting people to rise up against our troops over there more than ever.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by diamondD
That's a different topic tho. ;)

I think they need to only use them to prosecute for criminal behavior. If they are released, the only purpose they will serve is getting people to rise up against our troops over there more than ever.


Utter bullshit:rolleyes:

[FORD]

It's complete bullshit. The "Arab world" knows what's in those fucking pictures. I really wouldn't be surprised if Al Jazeera's shown them on TV. In either case, only an idiot would believe that word hasn't gotten around over there.

We're talking about RAPING CHILDREN TO GET TO THEIR PARENTS here, Busheep.

NOTHING justifies that. Nothing.

The "Arab world" has every goddamned RIGHT to be inflamed over that. God knows I am, as any decent fucking human being should be.

And I would have no problem turning child rapists over to an angry Arab mob, regardless of what uniform they were desecrating.

The only problem here is that the soldiers who had nothing to do with this will probably pay the price for it, while the PIECES OF SHIT who ordered this done get away with this, among every other fucking crime they have committed in the last 5 years.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
It's complete bullshit. The "Arab world" knows what's in those fucking pictures. I really wouldn't be surprised if Al Jazeera's shown them on TV. In either case, only an idiot would believe that word hasn't gotten around over there.

We're talking about RAPING CHILDREN TO GET TO THEIR PARENTS here, Busheep.

NOTHING justifies that. Nothing.

The "Arab world" has every goddamned RIGHT to be inflamed over that. God knows I am, as any decent fucking human being should be.

And I would have no problem turning child rapists over to an angry Arab mob, regardless of what uniform they were desecrating.

The only problem here is that the soldiers who had nothing to do with this will probably pay the price for it, while the PIECES OF SHIT who ordered this done get away with this, among every other fucking crime they have committed in the last 5 years.


EXACTLY

The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason dd, warpig, assvibe, et al wouldn't want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER black eye for their corrupt, disgusting band of thugs disguising as an "administration"

The same administration that brought back such felons, murderers, and psycopaths as Elliot Abrams, John Negroponte, Dick Cheney, and the most sinister of them all FIELD MARSHALL RUMSFELD:mad:

[ why sharkey doesnt want them released escapes me]

Bottom line, is if this were Al Gore's war [which would have only struck Afghanistan, and finished the job] these same guys would be SCREAMING BLODDY MURDER to hve this stuff released, and calling for the head of the S.O.D. on a platter:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Why don't you hold the idiots that started this war in Iraq as accountable. They're ultimately responsible for this.

Too busy being rewarded Medals of Freedom :rolleyes:

[Redballjets88]

and we know what the pics will be too so why do you care so much?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.



Now that's saying something, if a lying, lowlife piece of shit like Rummy finds them "hard to believe"

:mad:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Redballjets88
and we know what the pics will be too so why do you care so much?

oh.

my.

god.


Troubling on many levels coming from someone YOUR age.:mad:

Imagine for a moment you get drafted in the next 4 years [quite likely, unless you're the son of an ex-CIA chief]

You're sent over there, and witness children being raped in front of their parents to try and get them to talk?

You're telling us you wouldnt want it stopped, the perps prosecuted, and the leaders who approved and condoned these disgusting, sub-human acts FIRED, AND TRIED ON WAR CRIMES CHARGES???

jeesus:rolleyes:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine

The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason dd, warpig, assvibe, et al wouldn't want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER black eye for their corrupt, disgusting band of thugs disguising as an "administration"

The same administration that brought back such felons, murderers, and psycopaths as Elliot Abrams, John Negroponte, Dick Cheney, and the most sinister of them all FIELD MARSHALL RUMSFELD:mad:

[ why sharkey doesnt want them released escapes me]


The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason you, FORD and others want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER opportunity to expose Bush and Co. for the corrupt, disgusting band of thugs that they are. ;)

I agree they are thugs who should get thrown out. Lounge, you know I have absolutely ZERO respect for this administration. But releasing these pictures won't accomplish your goal. All it will do is incite violence against the very troops who are already in harm's way, and make it more dangerous for our country. National security and the safety of our troops is more important, in my opinion, than the political agenda of embarrasing Bush and Co.

I am all for releasing the photos in conjunction with the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators, as long as the court records are sealed.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason you, FORD and others want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER opportunity to expose Bush and Co. for the corrupt, disgusting band of thugs that they are. ;)



We know the pictures exist. The Muslims know the pictures exist. So I don't see "inflaming the Arab world" as the issue. They're already inflamed. And for good reason.

However, waking up the 40% of people who are still blind to this Fraudministration IS a valid factor. That's why Chimpco wants them censored.

The BCE has been exposed for "the corrupt, disgusting band of thugs that they are" dozens of times, but the Busheep have always been able to compartmentalize it and pretend it doesn't matter.

Maybe they NEED to see something as sickening as child rape to wake them up? This country will never heal if it cannot first acknowledge the disease that's killing it.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
It's complete bullshit. The "Arab world" knows what's in those fucking pictures. I really wouldn't be surprised if Al Jazeera's shown them on TV. In either case, only an idiot would believe that word hasn't gotten around over there.

We're talking about RAPING CHILDREN TO GET TO THEIR PARENTS here, Busheep.

NOTHING justifies that. Nothing.

The "Arab world" has every goddamned RIGHT to be inflamed over that. God knows I am, as any decent fucking human being should be.

And I would have no problem turning child rapists over to an angry Arab mob, regardless of what uniform they were desecrating.

That's because you're a dishonorable cunt.

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason you, FORD and others want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER opportunity to expose Bush and Co. for the corrupt, disgusting band of thugs that they are. ;)

I agree they are thugs who should get thrown out. Lounge, you know I have absolutely ZERO respect for this administration. But releasing these pictures won't accomplish your goal. All it will do is incite violence against the very troops who are already in harm's way, and make it more dangerous for our country. National security and the safety of our troops is more important, in my opinion, than the political agenda of embarrasing Bush and Co.

I am all for releasing the photos in conjunction with the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators, as long as the court records are sealed.

Agreed.

:gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
That's because you're a dishonorable cunt.

:gulp:

So if I'm a "dishonorable cunt" for wanting child rapists to get the punishment they deserve, then what are YOU for wanting them to get away with it?

[Cathedral]

Tell ya what, collect all the pics and put them in a scrapbook.
Then, once all our troops are home you can release them all day long.

I agree with Guitar Shark.
The only people it will hurt is the troops doing their jobs correctly because of what those pictures will be used to do to attack Bush.

Which is exactly my problem with a lot of the protests, they miss the target and put the troops safety in even more jeopardy.
You just can't do that and expect people to listen when you say you do support the troops.

It's irresponsible and the judge made the right call.

[FORD]

OK. Bring the troops home. Except for the ones directly guilty of this. Keep them over there. Throw Rummy, Wolfie, Oily Dick, and the Monkey in with them.

Then let the Iraqis dispense justice as they see fit.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
It's irresponsible and the judge made the right call.

The judge ordered them released, cat

The Pentagon defied the order

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
OK. Bring the troops home. Except for the ones directly guilty of this. Keep them over there. Throw Rummy, Wolfie, Oily Dick, and the Monkey in with them.

Then let the Iraqis dispense justice as they see fit.

Nope. We dispense justice as we see fit to our troops. That's the way it works. That's the only way a PFC or Coporal will ever get a fair trial in the US military.

Sorry.

Give 'em to the Iraqis....what a nutball idea. :rolleyes:

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
The judge ordered them released, cat

The Pentagon defied the order

Ooooffff, boy i botched that post all to hell.
Well, i meant Pentagon...

Thanks for the correction!

The pictures should not be released in my opinion, i hope that part was clear at least, lol.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Nope. We dispense justice as we see fit to our troops. That's the way it works. That's the only way a PFC or Coporal will ever get a fair trial in the US military.

Sorry.

Give 'em to the Iraqis....what a nutball idea. :rolleyes:


Drop the insurgent fuckers where they stand and with a weapon in hand. there is no conspiracy in that, it's just war.

Taking them back to lock them up, feed them, let them read the Quran and maybe get out later to kill some more is bullshit.

I would find no pleasure in abusing someone i want to see dead, i'd rather just shoot them and walk away.
Chances are someone's death will be vindicated by offing the insurgent fuck so my conscience would be clean.

He picked up a weapon to fight us, therefore let his corpse drop where it stood.
And even that gives them more dignity than the people they have beheaded.

[FORD]

What part of THEY RAPED FUCKING CHILDREN are you guys not understanding?

NO uniform gives you the license for that.

Not a police uniform, not a Scoutmaster uniform, not the robes of the Catholic church, and NOT THE UNIFORM OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY.

Put a bullet in THESE piece of shit's heads. It's better than they deserve.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
What part of THEY RAPED FUCKING CHILDREN are you guys not understanding?

NO uniform gives you the license for that.

Not a police uniform, not a Scoutmaster uniform, not the robes of the Catholic church, and NOT THE UNIFORM OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY.

Put a bullet in THESE piece of shit's heads. It's better than they deserve.

You're changing the subject. This thread is about whether to release the pictures. So let's assume that they raped children (which, by the way, hasn't been proven yet). How does this affect the decision of whether to release the pictures? If anything, it weighs AGAINST releasing them.

[ODShowtime]

This is one of those good threads where I don't need to add anything.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
This is one of those good threads were I don't need to add anything.

Why is that? Your opinions are always valued here. By me anyway.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
You're changing the subject. This thread is about whether to release the pictures. So let's assume that they raped children (which, by the way, hasn't been proven yet). How does this affect the decision of whether to release the pictures? If anything, it weighs AGAINST releasing them.

The pictures should be released because the BCE and the military need to admit to what they have done and take responsibility for it. And the Muslim world needs to know that this is NOT acceptable to Americans (except Brian, apparently)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Why is that? Your opinions are always valued here. By me anyway.

Thank you. I feel the same about you. That was my point, which I often fail to make.

I was going to say things that you, Cat, FORD, and Lounge all said. It was like... ok, no point muddying the waters.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
The pictures should be released because the BCE and the military need to admit to what they have done and take responsibility for it. And the Muslim world needs to know that this is NOT acceptable to Americans (except Brian, apparently)

Those are the two central points FORD. Nobody is talking about that. We need to show the Muslims and the rest of the world that without a doubt we do not condone behavior like this. We NEED to stamp it out or we face a slippery slope.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
The pictures should be released because the BCE and the military need to admit to what they have done and take responsibility for it. And the Muslim world needs to know that this is NOT acceptable to Americans (except Brian, apparently)

The "BCE" and the military can admit to wrongdoing even without releasing the pictures. In fact, an argument can be made that they have already done so. Your real beef is the fact that Bush hasn't been held accountable, which I understand. But that still doesn't justify releasing the photos in my view.

I would be interested in reading the judge's order, if anyone can find it. The judge's reasoning might push me the other way, but I doubt it.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
The pictures should be released because the BCE and the military need to admit to what they have done and take responsibility for it. And the Muslim world needs to know that this is NOT acceptable to Americans (except Brian, apparently)

Oh for crying out loud. :rolleyes:

I think we've been down this road before.

Court-Martials, resignations, offers of resignations (Rummy), massive protests and anti-US publiciity.

Guitar Shark nailed it: you and the other Bush-haters just want more negative US publicity for his sake.

This is sick.

:mad:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Guitar Shark nailed it: you and the other Bush-haters just want more negative US publicity for his sake.

This is sick.

:mad:

That's not exactly my point but we're all on the same page I think.

What is truly "sick" is not the desire of some to embarass Bush, it is the fact that Bush has managed to keep the focus on the soldiers, and not on his own foreign policy failures which got us into this situation in the first place. These soldiers committed heinous crimes, but Bush has never ONCE admitted any lack of judgment with anything pertaining to Iraq. THAT is sick.

In any event, it still doesn't mean we should release the pics.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
What part of THEY RAPED FUCKING CHILDREN are you guys not understanding?

NO uniform gives you the license for that.

Not a police uniform, not a Scoutmaster uniform, not the robes of the Catholic church, and NOT THE UNIFORM OF THE UNITED STATES MILITARY.

Put a bullet in THESE piece of shit's heads. It's better than they deserve.


Whoa, the rape thing didn't even register cause i don't know what the fuck that is all about.

But let me go on record here and post my view on that.

Anyone who rapes a child should have their penis flushed with anti-freeze. and this flushing should not stop until it flows from every oraface on the mans body.

That's my position on child rape/molestation.

And for the pictures of abuse, the only people that need to see them should be in a courtroom.
I just don't see any reason for the citizens to see so much of the bad that has gone on when none of the good things are being reported.

The Political Propaganda Attack Machine (TPPAM) has enough ammunition and still can't prove anything.
Cause hey, if there is proof, there can be a conviction, period.

I don't see why the entire military should get a black eye because of the few power tripping scum in uniform.
That just allowes anyone who hates us to form an unfair opinion of the forces as a whole.
Now that may be what some people want as long as it gets Bush out of office.
It just isn't right and our upstanding troops don't deserve it.

[Nickdfresh]

These are some pretty fucking horrid accusations...I don't know where I stand on this, I see the glaring points of both sides. The lack of accountability in regards to RUMMY's "Operation Copper Green" as opposed to the concerns for the troops fighting this God awful shitfest who are just as much victims and pawns as the tortured IRAQIs...

But I'll say one thing, I'm pretty God damn tired of hearing how well the al Qaeda suspects being held indefinitely, without trial, are being treated. As if the average Iraqi picked up off the street is guilty, well it's bullshit, and an amateurish way to run a war. Innocent people are, as often as not, being tortured and destroyed according to the mores within their own society, which is a tactic far more effective than torture. And time and time again I hear right wing sycophants denying that their army could have done such things. I've heard sick, bullshit comparisons of Abu Ghraib to a big fraternity hazing session.

These photos would remove all doubt of that! Does anyone now doubt that Sen. Durbin had a point? SOME, A FEW of our troops are acting like NAZIs, and SERB ethnic cleansers!:mad:

Having said that, I still don't know if the photos should be released...

[Cathedral]

Amen, Nick!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Why is that? Your opinions are always valued here. By me anyway.

And me:cool:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Those are the two central points FORD. Nobody is talking about that. We need to show the Muslims and the rest of the world that without a doubt we do not condone behavior like this. We NEED to stamp it out or we face a slippery slope.

That is why we need FULL DISCLOSURE

The last thing we need is to hide behind "national security"

It breeds speculation

Does ANYONE here think our soldiers are safer because the world "only thinks" this has occurred????????

[diamondD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Utter bullshit:rolleyes:

Hmmm, if GS and cathederal agree with me, and you and FORD don't, I feel like I'm thinking with a level head. Thanks for the reenforcement.

FULL DISCLOSURE doesn't mean endangering our troops, at any cost. No matter how bad you want Bush to burn over it.

The one who is breeding the most speculation on this is you, but you're so blind with anger you can't see it.

[diamondD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
EXACTLY

The ONLY reason, I mean the ONLY reason dd, warpig, assvibe, et al wouldn't want the photos released is because it's yet ANOTHER black eye for their corrupt, disgusting band of thugs disguising as an "administration"




The only reason I don't want them out is to protect the troops. I couldn't give a flying fuck about defending any politician for criminal behavior, no matter if I voted for him or not. You paint with a pretty broad brush, and once again you've proven you don't have an objective thought at all about any of this.

[FORD]

Has it occurred to any of you that these pictures might be well circulated in Iraq already?

If I remember correctly. the first pictures certainly were.

If that's true, then who the BCE really trying to keep the pictures from?

Food for thought......

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
Has it occurred to any of you that these pictures might be well circulated in Iraq already?

If I remember correctly. the first pictures certainly were.

If that's true, then who the BCE really trying to keep the pictures from?

Food for thought......

There's no telling who saw what, or how many saw what.
But releasing them will damn sure make sure EVERYONE on the planet see's them all, won't it?

Besides, it isn't Bush in the pictures, it's dumb fuck assholes who are supposed to be soldiers adhering to a code of conduct and aren't.

Surely there is enough other evidence to attack Bush with and get him impeached that doesn't slur the name of an otherwise excellent military?

I'm not down with letting Bush or anyone else get away with any crimes, but putting the troops in the crossfire, and you know it will, is wrong.
The ones involved are being dealt with, right?
Maybe not the way you or I would like to see, but they are being dealt with.

Dude, I know for damn sure that the moment those pictures are released, and they will be someday, they would only be used to discredit Bush.
The problem is that it will also discredit our entire military because they will be posted as an example of what we are doing in Iraq, which is a very minute issue given all the good that real soldiers that act like real soldiers are doing there.

The abuse is only representative of that unit, not all of our troops, and not Bush.
Attack everything that led up to the war.
Attack the policy of the Admin.
Attack Bush personally, it's your right to do so.
Just keep away from things that directly influence the emotions shown to our troops in the battle.

Muslims are like cockroaches, they absorb news as fact and react to it accordingly.
They have been told what to think and what to do for decades and have been conditioned to believe nothing but lies.
Remember the Defense Minister, i forgot his name, when he was saying, "There are no Americans in Baghdad" while American soldiers can be seen in the distant background blowing shit up across a bridge, lol.

Man, i don't know what to say anymore other than we have got to be careful what we say and how we say it.

Say there is one insurgent that is ready to give up, then he see's reports that we can't win, it's another Vietnam, Bush is Hitler, etc. and then decides to stick it out another day.
Then during that day he gets a bead on a few of our boys and blows them away......How does that scenario sit in your stomach?

I don't give a damn about any suited up asshole who goes to work in Washington everyday.
My concern and prayers are for our troops and nothing more.

If you want Bush gone, do it without using the troops as ammo. that is all i ask and plead of those who are sternly against this administrations policies.
And these pictures coming out now will only hurt the troops and miss the target again, which is G.W.

If something i ever say contributes to anyone's death, i'm as guilty as the one who actually commits the murder if my words motivated them to take that life.
Though we may never learn of these events, God knows all the details.

The tongue can be sharper than any sword.

There's some food for thought right back at ya, lol... ;)

[LoungeMachine]

Jesus FUCKING Christ I'm sick to FUCKING death of this turning into a "you just hate Bush" rap

FUCKING BULLSHIT

I WANT THE TRUTH. NO MATTER HOW FUCKING UGLY IT IS

Besides, most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that the Chimp is untouchable at this point.

THIS IS BULLSHIT, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH, OR PROTECTING OUR TROOPS

IF, IF, IF WE DID THIS, WE NEED TO KNOW

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by diamondD
The only reason I don't want them out is to protect the troops. .


BULLSHIT

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Jesus FUCKING Christ I'm sick to FUCKING death of this turning into a "you just hate Bush" rap

FUCKING BULLSHIT

I WANT THE TRUTH. NO MATTER HOW FUCKING UGLY IT IS

Besides, most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that the Chimp is untouchable at this point.

THIS IS BULLSHIT, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BUSH, OR PROTECTING OUR TROOPS

IF, IF, IF WE DID THIS, WE NEED TO KNOW

He's not untouchable, not at all.
There just needs to be a case presented that can be proven and then charges filed so he can be prosecuted for them.

I saw the first pics that came out, we didn't do it, a rogue group of twisted fucks did it while wearing U.S. Military Uniforms.
There is no doubt in my mind that abuse happened there, so i don't need to see any more pictures.

We just don't want to add fuel to the fire that is aimed at the soldiers, and that's not bullshit, that's trying to maintain the integrity of our forces because a bunch of fucking idiots decided to embarrass the whole country.
Let's get our troops home and then throw everything on the table, including the highly anticipated Chimpeachment process.

[LoungeMachine]

Last week the Bush administration was supposed to release the second batch of photos and video taken at Abu Ghraib prison. The administration has so far stonewalled attempts by civil libertarians to access the pictures - which have been described by Donald Rumsfeld as "blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane" - but was ordered by a judge to release them on July 22. Guess what? They didn't.

The administration initially claimed that they needed time to redact the faces of the men, women and - yes - children who appear in the torture pictures. But late on July 22 they filed a motion "requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals," according to the Center for Constitutional Rights. Er, now they want to protect the physical safety of individuals who have already been tortured?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Last week the Bush administration was supposed to release the second batch of photos and video taken at Abu Ghraib prison. The administration has so far stonewalled attempts by civil libertarians to access the pictures - which have been described by Donald Rumsfeld as "blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane" - but was ordered by a judge to release them on July 22. Guess what? They didn't.

The administration initially claimed that they needed time to redact the faces of the men, women and - yes - children who appear in the torture pictures. But late on July 22 they filed a motion "requesting a 7(F) exemption from disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act to withhold law enforcement-related information in order to protect the physical safety of individuals," according to the Center for Constitutional Rights. Er, now they want to protect the physical safety of individuals who have already been tortured?

So the administration isn't claiming they need to keep them hidden to protect troops, they just needed time to redact the faces of the children being abused

:mad:

[Cathedral]

Children?
Damn, i am missing all these reports that have to do with children.

So, children are being tortured by our troops?

I have seen nothing about that at all except for Ford's comments.

Time to go searching i reckon.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Children?
Damn, i am missing all these reports that have to do with children.

So, children are being tortured by our troops?

I have seen nothing about that at all except for Ford's comments.

Time to go searching i reckon.


Why do you think we're so outraged??????????


yes, children in front of their parents :mad:

[Cathedral]

Um, i'm speechless and pissed because i have seen and heard nothing about children.
And i've been on news channels all damn day and not a word was mentioned about this shit.

It's news to me... :(

[diamondD]

I'm curious too as to why I never see anything about children being raped in front of their parents in any of these articles. Source?

[diamondD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
BULLSHIT


BULLSHIT yourself. I'm tired of you fucking speaking for me. You don't have a clue as to what my thoughts are. I'm waaaaaaay more objective than you'll ever try to be on this.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by diamondD
I'm curious too as to why I never see anything about children being raped in front of their parents in any of these articles. Source?

Agreed...sources please.

[FORD]

You guys know how to use Google, don't you?

Not that it matters. I could post a dozen links and you Busheep wouldn't believe it because none of the links would be from the corporate media.

The thing is, this WAS mentioned in the British press (among other places) in 2004. You just chose to ignore it then, because it wasn't FAUX.

[diamondD]

Translation: I got it from looney left anti-Bush websites that have no objectivity either.


I don't think I'll be googling child rape from work. And the fact you won't name one source reporting this speaks volumes.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by diamondD
Translation: I got it from looney left anti-Bush websites that have no objectivity either.


I don't think I'll be googling child rape from work. And the fact you won't name one source reporting this speaks volumes.

moron:rolleyes:

You dont need to google "child rape", idiot

Google Iraq Pentagon Abuse Children

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_19407.shtml

This FIRST one quotes Rummy and other sources from a CNN NEWS STORY in 2004

Expect FAUX to talk about this? Or RUSH?

:mad:

[LoungeMachine]

US and Child Abuse in Iraq
by denmad Wednesday July 27, 2005 at 01:19 AM


Reposting two artciles re; new Abu Ghraib Images depicit US soliders abusing children and women.

Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why

By Greg Mitchell

Published: July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET

NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

Yesterday, news emerged that lawyers for the Pentagon had refused to cooperate with a federal judge's order to release dozens of unseen photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq by Saturday. The photos were among thousands turned over by the key “whistleblower” in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking.

The Pentagon lawyers said in a letter sent to the federal court in Manhattan that they would file a sealed brief explaining their reasons for not turning over the material. They had been ordered to do so by a federal judge in response to a FOIA lawsuit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. The ACLU accused the government Friday of putting another legal roadblock in the way of its bid to allow the public to see the images of the prisoner abuse scandal.

One Pentagon lawyer has argued that they should not be released because they would only add to the humiliation of the prisoners. But the ACLU has said the faces of the victims can easily be "redacted."

To get a sense of what may be shown in these images, one has to go back to press reports from when the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal was still front page news.

This is how CNN reported it on May 8, 2004, in a typical account that day:

“U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld revealed Friday that videos and ‘a lot more pictures’ exist of the abuse of Iraqis held at Abu Ghraib prison.

"’If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse,’ Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. ‘I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.’

“The embattled defense secretary fielded sharp and skeptical questions from lawmakers as he testified about the growing prisoner abuse scandal. A military report about that abuse describes detainees being threatened, sodomized with a chemical light and forced into sexually humiliating poses.

“Charges have been brought against seven service members, and investigations into events at the prison continue.

“Military investigators have looked into -- or are continuing to investigate -- 35 cases of alleged abuse or deaths of prisoners in detention facilities in the Central Command theater, according to Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Two of those cases were deemed homicides, he said.

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’

“A report by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba on the abuse at the prison outside Baghdad says videotapes and photographs show naked detainees, and that groups of men were forced to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped. Taguba also found evidence of a ‘male MP guard having sex with a female detainee.’

“Rumsfeld told Congress the unrevealed photos and videos contain acts 'that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.’”

The military later screened some of the images for lawmakers, who said they showed, among other things, attack dogs snarling at cowed prisoners, Iraqi women forced to expose their breasts, and naked prisoners forced to have sex with each other.

In the same period, reporter Seymour Hersh, who helped uncover the scandal, said in a speech before an ACLU convention: “Some of the worse that happened that you don't know about, ok? Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men….The women were passing messages saying ‘Please come and kill me, because of what's happened.’

“Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it's going to come out.”

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590

[LoungeMachine]

Iraq's Child Prisoners




A Sunday Herald investigation has discovered that coalition forces are holding more than 100 children in jails such as Abu Ghraib. Witnesses claim that the detainees – some as young as 10 – are also being subjected to rape and torture
By Neil Mackay



It was early last October that Kasim Mehaddi Hilas says he witnessed the rape of a boy prisoner aged about 15 in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. “The kid was hurting very bad and they covered all the doors with sheets,” he said in a statement given to investigators probing prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib. “Then, when I heard the screaming I climbed the door … and I saw [the soldier’s name is deleted] who was wearing a military uniform.” Hilas, who was himself threatened with being sexually assaulted in Abu Graib, then describes in horrific detail how the soldier raped “the little kid”.
In another witness statement, passed to the Sunday Herald, former prisoner Thaar Salman Dawod said: “[I saw] two boys naked and they were cuffed together face to face and [a US soldier] was beating them and a group of guards were watching and taking pictures and there was three female soldiers laughing at the prisoners. The prisoners, two of them, were young.”

It’s not certain exactly how many children are being held by coalition forces in Iraq, but a Sunday Herald investigation suggests there are up to 107. Their names are not known, nor is where they are being kept, how long they will be held or what has happened to them during their detention.

Proof of the widespread arrest and detention of children in Iraq by US and UK forces is contained in an internal Unicef report written in June. The report has – surprisingly – not been made public. A key section on child protection, headed “Children in Conflict with the Law or with Coalition Forces”, reads: “In July and August 2003, several meetings were conducted with CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) … and Ministry of Justice to address issues related to juvenile justice and the situation of children detained by the coalition forces … Unicef is working through a variety of channels to try and learn more about conditions for children who are imprisoned or detained, and to ensure that their rights are respected.”

Another section reads: “Information on the number, age, gender and conditions of incarceration is limited. In Basra and Karbala children arrested for alleged activities targeting the occupying forces are reported to be routinely transferred to an internee facility in Um Qasr. The categorisation of these children as ‘internees’ is worrying since it implies indefinite holding without contact with family, expectation of trial or due process.”

The report also states: “A detention centre for children was established in Baghdad, where according to ICRC (International Committee of the Red Cross) a significant number of children were detained. Unicef was informed that the coalition forces were planning to transfer all children in adult facilities to this ‘specialised’ child detention centre. In July 2003, Unicef requested a visit to the centre but access was denied. Poor security in the area of the detention centre has prevented visits by independent observers like the ICRC since last December.

“The perceived unjust detention of Iraqi males, including youths, for suspected activities against the occupying forces has become one of the leading causes for the mounting frustration among Iraqi youths and the potential for radicalisation of this population group.”

Journalists in Germany have also been investigating the detention and abuse of children in Iraq. One reporter, Thomas Reutter of the TV programme Report Mainz, interviewed a US army sergeant called Samuel Provance, who is banned from speaking about his six months stationed in Abu Ghraib but told Reutter of how one 16-year-old Iraqi boy was arrested.

“He was terribly afraid,” Provance said. “He had the skinniest arms I’ve ever seen. He was trembling all over. His wrists were so thin we couldn’t even put handcuffs on him. Right when I saw him for the first time, and took him for interrogation, I felt sorry for him.




“The interrogation specialists poured water over him and put him into a car. Then they drove with him through the night, and at that time it was very, very cold. Then they smeared him with mud and showed him to his father, who was also in custody. They had tried out other interrogation methods on him, but he wasn’t to be brought to talk. The interrogation specialists told me, after the father had seen his son in this state, his heart broke. He wept and promised to tell them everything they wanted to know.”

An Iraqi TV reporter Suhaib Badr-Addin al-Baz saw the Abu Ghraib children’s wing when he was arrested by Americans while making a documentary. He spent 74 days in Abu Ghraib.

“I saw a camp for children there,” he said. “Boys, under the age of puberty. There were certainly hundreds of children in this camp.” Al-Baz said he heard a 12-year-old girl crying. Her brother was also held in the jail. One night guards came into her cell. “She was beaten,” said al-Baz. “I heard her call out, ‘They have undressed me. They have poured water over me.’”

He says he heard her cries and whimpering daily – this, in turn, caused other prisoners to cry as they listened to her. Al-Baz also told of an ill 15-year-old boy who was soaked repeatedly with hoses until he collapsed. Guards then brought in the child’s father with a hood over his head. The boy collapsed again.

Although most of the children are held in US custody, the Sunday Herald has established that some are held by the British Army. British soldiers tend to arrest children in towns like Basra, which are under UK control, then hand the youngsters over to the Americans who interrogate them and detain them.

Between January and May this year the Red Cross registered a total of 107 juveniles in detention during 19 visits to six coalition prisons. The aid organisation’s Rana Sidani said they had no complete information about the ages of those detained, or how they had been treated. The deteriorating security situation has prevented the Red Cross visiting all detention centres.

Amnesty International is outraged by the detention of children. It is aware of “numerous human rights violations against Iraqi juveniles, including detentions, torture and ill-treatment, and killings”. Amnesty has interviewed former detainees who say they’ve seen boys as young as 10 in Abu Ghraib.

The organisation’s leaders have called on the coalition governments to give concrete information on how old the children are, how many are detained, why and where they are being held, and in what circumstances they are being detained. They also want to know if the children have been tortured.

Alistair Hodgett, media director of Amnesty International USA, said the coalition forces needed to be “transparent” about their policy of child detentions, adding: “Secrecy is one thing that rings alarm bells.” Amnesty was given brief access to one jail in Mosul, he said, but has been repeatedly turned away from all others. He pointed out that even countries “which don’t have good records”, such as Libya, gave Amnesty access to prisons. “Denying access just fuels the rumour mill,” he said.

Hodgett added that British and US troops should not be detaining any Iraqis – let alone children – following the recent handover of power. “They should all be held by Iraqi authorities,” he said. “When the coalition handed over Saddam they should have handed over the other 3000 detainees.”

The British Ministry of Defence confirmed UK forces had handed over prisoners to US troops, but a spokes man said he did not know the ages of any detainees given to the Americans.

The MoD also admitted it was currently holding one prisoner aged under 18 at Shaibah prison near Um Qasr. Since the invasion Britain has detained, and later released, 65 under-18s. The MoD claimed the ICRC had access to British jails and detainee lists.

High-placed officials in the Pentagon and Centcom told the Sunday Herald that children as young as 14 were being held by US forces. “We do have juveniles detained,” a source said. “They have been detained as they are deemed to be a threat or because they have acted against the coalition or Iraqis.”

Officially, the Pentagon says it is holding “around 60 juvenile detainees primarily aged 16 and 17”, although when it was pointed out that the Red Cross estimate is substantially higher, a source admitted “numbers may have gone up, we might have detained more kids”.

Officials would not comment about children under the age of 16 being held prisoner. Sources said: ‘‘It’s a real challenge ascertaining their ages. Unlike the UK or the US, they don’t have IDs or birth certificates.” The Sunday Herald has been told, however, that at least five children aged under 16 are being kept at Abu Ghraib and Camp Bucca.

A highly placed source in the Pentagon said: “We have done investigations into accusations of juveniles being abused and raped and can’t find anything that resembles that.”

The Pentagon’s official policy is to segregate juvenile prisoners from the rest of the prison population, and allow young inmates to join family members also being detained. “Our main concern is that they are not abused or harassed by older detainees. We know they need special treatment,” an official said.

Pentagon sources said they were unaware how long child prisoners were kept in jail but said their cases were reviewed every 90 days. The last review was early last month. The sources confirmed the children had been questioned and interrogated when initially detained, but could not say whether this was “an adult-style interrogation”.

The Norwegian government, which is part of the “coalition of the willing”, has already said it will tell the US that the alleged torture of children is intolerable. Odd Jostein Sæter, parliamentary secretary at the Norwegian prime minister’s office, said: “Such assaults are unacceptable. It is against international laws and it is also unacceptable from a moral point of view. This is why we react strongly … We are addressing this in a very severe and direct way and present concrete demands. This is damaging the struggle for democracy and human rights in Iraq.”




In Denmark, which is also in the coalition, Save the Children called on its government to tell the occupying forces to order the immediate release of child detainees. Neals Hurdal, head of the Danish Save the Children, said the y had heard rumours of children in Basra being maltreated in custody since May.

Human Rights Watch (HRW) said it was “extremely disturbed” that the coalition was holding children for long periods in jails notorious for torture. HRW also criticised the policy of categorising children as “security detainees”, saying this did not give carte blanche for them to be held indefinitely. HRW said if there was evidence the children had committed crimes then they should be tried in Iraqi courts, otherwise they should be returned to their families.

Unicef is “profoundly disturbed” by reports of children being abused in coalition jails. Alexandra Yuster, Unicef’s senior adviser on child detention, said that under international law children should be detained only as a last resort and only then for the shortest possible time.

They should have access to lawyers and their families, be kept safe, healthy, educated, well-fed and not be subjected to any form of mental or physical punishment, she added. Unicef is now “desperately” trying to get more information on the fate of the children currently detained in coalition jails.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD

The thing is, this WAS mentioned in the British press (among other places) in 2004. You just chose to ignore it then, because it wasn't FAUX.

FAUX FAUX FAUX FAUX FAUX FAUX FAUX

You're a bigger doofus than I imagine if you think I or anyone else in the middle or to the right uses Fox exclusively. Go ahead thinking that way, though. That may be to our advantage. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

My position:

If they can hold a gun, shoot 'em!

If they surrender, lock 'em up!

If they hold information that could benefit our troops, get it out of them....by any means.

'Nuff said.

:gulp:

[LoungeMachine]

That took what 4 minutes?

Seymour Hersch and Newsweek are also presenting evidence.

But we're just loonie lefties out to smear Bush


WHY ARE CHILDREN EVEN BEING HELD IN ABU GHRAIB IN THE FIRST PLACE?????????????????????????

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
If they hold information that could benefit our troops, get it out of them....by any means.

'Nuff said.

:gulp:

So you are on the record that you would have no problem with the RAPE of children to get info??????????:confused: :confused: :confused:

" BY ANY MEANS" ???

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
So you are on the record that you would have no problem with the RAPE of children to get info??????????:confused: :confused: :confused:

" BY ANY MEANS" ???

Appparently he jacks off to that in his little macho, right-wing world..

This is fucking shameful!:mad:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Appparently he jacks off to that in his little macho, right-wing world..

This is fucking shameful!:mad:

Iam at a loss for words, literally speechless.

I've always had an admiration for Bri, in spite of his politics

:(

[BigBadBrian]

I had to put that "by any means" in there. I knew that would spin you guys up like a top.

I don't condone the rape of children, but....I don't have a problem beating their little asses for info. Not if they were weilding a gun or throwing a satchel charge at our troops I don't. No sirree, I fucking don't. A combatant is a combatant. If those little fuckers want to go to the dance, they better be ready to boogie.

:gulp:

[Warham]

If this rape story's been out for over a year, then why are you guys just now started to jump on the bandwagon? Where was your outrage on a daily basis over the last twelve months?

[diamondD]

Exactly Warham, where's all this outrage been? They get fired up about it all of a sudden and now we're all idiots for not following along and questioning where they got this info.

Like I said, Cat and GS agreed with my original postion and I'm sticking to it, no matter how bad LM gets his panties in a wad. I feel completely comfortable in saying the pictures shouldn't be released to protect our troops and they keep trying to spin it as acceptance of child molestation. I don't condone any kind of torture, rape, whatever of kids, unless that kid is willing to kill one of ours the first chance he gets. At that point he's an enemy of our troops.

And like BBB said, I don't watch FOX exclusively to get my news. That's just the standard response when they get questioned on their sources.

Until you draw a clear connected line linking Bush's approval of this, and not just a theory, he's not going to go down for this.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by diamondD
Exactly Warham, where's all this outrage been? They get fired up about it all of a sudden and now we're all idiots for not following along and questioning where they got this info.

Who would believe it if it wasn't on film? It's called evidence! Many Germans refused to believe that their military, especially the Wehrmacht, was incapable of perpetrating acts of torture and summary execution until they had seen exhibits of "regular" troops doing such things.

I'm tired of orange tee-shirt wearing morons believing the utter myth that the terrorists are all evil decapitators while we're just completely innocent to the fault of weakness. It's bullshit!

It's called perspective. It's called evidence


Like I said, Cat and GS agreed with my original postion and I'm sticking to it, no matter how bad LM gets his panties in a wad. I feel completely comfortable in saying the pictures shouldn't be released to protect our troops and they keep trying to spin it as acceptance of child molestation. I don't condone any kind of torture, rape, whatever of kids, unless that kid is willing to kill one of ours the first chance he gets. At that point he's an enemy of our troops.

And like BBB said, I don't watch FOX exclusively to get my news. That's just the standard response when they get questioned on their sources.

Until you draw a clear connected line linking Bush's approval of this, and not just a theory, he's not going to go down for this.

A lot of things seem to have happened on President Bush's watch that he never gets held accountable for. Like the fact that terrorism has increased expedientially due to the illegal attack on IRAQ. We don't really know what is in these photos, so already the speculation is running rampant.

And there is no way in hell you can justifying the raping of children, tacitly "because they are combatants, or otherwise." What the fuck is wrong with you people? It's okay to rape and use any means necessary such as psychological torture to prevent casualties? That essentially throws out nearly of 100 years of the rule of law governing America's conduct of land warfare.

Bush is responsible, he is in charge of the Pentagon, he is the one that has endangered US troops by using faulty logic, illegal rationals, and possibly lies and deceit to enable and justify the invasion of IRAQ, which had absolutely nothing to do on the War on Terror to begin with. This is just another example of the Bush Administration's disdain for the rule of law, and the use of deception and coverups in order blindly implement a series of ruthless, ultimately self-destructive policies.

Perhaps these photos will help Americans to understand why those Iraqis are rejecting our "democracy" and are ungrateful for their "liberation." BTW, weren't many of you guys decrying the horrible torture of SADDAM HUSSEIN? If a story emerged of HUSSEIN's secret police raping children in front of their parents, I know I never would have heard the end of it here. Onward Christian soldiers, I'm done with my rant now.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I had to put that "by any means" in there. I knew that would spin you guys up like a top.

I don't condone the rape of children, but....I don't have a problem beating their little asses for info. Not if they were weilding a gun or throwing a satchel charge at our troops I don't. No sirree, I fucking don't. A combatant is a combatant. If those little fuckers want to go to the dance, they better be ready to boogie.

:gulp:

I have to agree with ya on this matter.
The moment a child picks up a weapon and turns to fight, he's an enemy, not a child.

But any soldier wearing a US uniform raping a child of any age should be castrated in my opinion.

Interrogation should have nothing to do with sex or violent sex acts.

I'm against the release of the pictures because of the backlash it will cause for the troops who aren't degenerate fuckheads.
There is no point in it, and the public doesn't need to see them for the guilty to be prosecuted.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I have to agree with ya on this matter.
The moment a child picks up a weapon and turns to fight, he's an enemy, not a child.

But any soldier wearing a US uniform raping a child of any age should be castrated in my opinion.


BBB obviously missed the point again. You know better. It appears that this isn't just torturing captured child combatants. This is kidnapping children of suspects and then torturing them to make the SUSPECTS talk.

Like Nick said, this throws out 100 years of decent conduct AND it's fucking repulsive.

This isn't to you CAT...

WAKE UP YOU FUCKING ASSHOLES!!!! WHY ARE WE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE? LIES!!!!! WHOSE LIVES ARE WE PROTECTING? FUCKING PIRATES. Our troops, god bless their souls, are nothing but pirates. And you can blame that on one thing: gw&friends. It's not their fault their orders are fucking illegal.

get a fucking grip before our future is finished!

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
It appears that this isn't just torturing captured child combatants. This is kidnapping children of suspects and then torturing them to make the SUSPECTS talk.

Like Nick said, this throws out 100 years of decent conduct AND it's fucking repulsive.


IF it's true, which hasn't been proven.

Those articles Lounge posted don't actually provide any evidence that children were sodomized or raped, other than the unsupported allegation of that Seymour Hersh reporter. Read the article closely and you will see that the quotation of the CNN story ends before they quote Hersh's comments.

When a legitimate news source stands behind these allegations, call me.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
IF it's true, which hasn't been proven.

When a legitimate news source stands behind these allegations, call me.

That's a good point. I was trying not to get all emotional about it, but the neocons were pissing me off.

We don't have definitive proof of that yet. It's sad that we'll believe it so easily though. It really is.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
IF it's true, which hasn't been proven.

Those articles Lounge posted don't actually provide any evidence that children were sodomized or raped, other than the unsupported allegation of that Seymour Hersh reporter. Read the article closely and you will see that the quotation of the CNN story ends before they quote Hersh's comments.

When a legitimate news source stands behind these allegations, call me.

They can't be substantiated because the PENTAGON WON'T ADHERE TO THE FED JUDGE'S ORDERS TO RELEASE THEM

If and when they are, your response wil be..........

BTW, can you hold the Pentagon in contempt of court?:confused:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
That's a good point. I was trying not to get all emotional about it, but the neocons were pissing me off.

We don't have definitive proof of that yet. It's sad that we'll believe it so easily though. It really is.


Yes it is.


But there's a proven pattern of lies, deceit, abuse, cover ups, et al

:mad:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
They can't be substantiated because the PENTAGON WON'T ADHERE TO THE FED JUDGE'S ORDERS TO RELEASE THEM

If and when they are, your response wil be..........

BTW, can you hold the Pentagon in contempt of court?:confused:

If you admit they haven't been substantiated yet, then surely you will agree it's premature to say the videos contain images of child rape? Because some here have done that.

I'm not really sure why the Pentagon is filing a sealed brief with the lower court rather than appeal the order itself. Perhaps they are filing a motion for reconsideration.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
But there's a proven pattern of lies, deceit, abuse, cover ups, et al

:mad:

And that's a serious problem.

I have to evaluate different evidence every day and make judgements. I judged these asscracks to be corrupt a long time ago. Before I ever came here.

Who could believe some of the things they've done? I believe they're capable of anything now.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
If you admit they haven't been substantiated yet, then surely you will agree it's premature to say the videos contain images of child rape? Because some here have done that.

I'm not really sure why the Pentagon is filing a sealed brief with the lower court rather than appeal the order itself. Perhaps they are filing a motion for reconsideration.

If it's a bash of the Bush administration, it can't be too premature, GS, even if it never can be substanciated.

[Cathedral]

I've said it before and i'll say it again...I haven't a clue what to believe anymore.
How people do the things they do, knowing damn good and well the difference between right and wrong......

Fuck, man, I am sooooooo lost at this point.

I'm going to go to Main and find a thread i can rip EVH apart in, and relax. :)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I'm going to go to Main and find a thread i can rip EVH apart in, and relax. :)

another shameful state of affairs :( (Ed being worthy of bashing that is)

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
another shameful state of affairs :( (Ed being worthy of bashing that is)

Well, that didn't work out either.
What can you say about the guy that he doesn't already feel of himself?

I wonder how much time he has before he totally imploads, lol.

[Jesus Christ]

Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of Heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe unto the world because of these offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

[diamondD]

If there's charges to be made, this order isn't going to stop anything like that from proceeding. There's been convictions already based on photos, why do people think it won't happen again?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of Heaven.

And whoso shall receive one such little child in My name receiveth Me.

But whoso shall offend one of these little ones, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Woe unto the world because of these offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

Ah, yet another of my favorites.
That one is a mighty powerful one too.
You don't even have to be guilty of it for it to make you quake in your boots.

The wrath of God will not be a pleasant thing to have raining down on you, for sure.

[Seshmeister]

What actually constitutes a story in the public interest these days particularly in the US?

You'll see from my posts I'm cynical about the whole huge conspiracy illuminati but I'm finding it increasingly weird that none of the claims in this thread or on a dozen other issues ever seem to make the mainstream media anymore.

It's not even up for debate one way or the other because the debate never happens.

Even fucking Bob Woodward one of the guys that broke Watergate brought out a book a couple of years back which should have been called 'I'm now one of the presidents men'.

Maybe 1% of the people even know the issues one way or another these days whilst 92% know who Paris Hilton fucked last month and what she was wearing.

The whole thing is a bizarre sick joke, I don't know why I even bother worrying about it.



Cheers!

:gulp:

[Cathedral]

I feel your pain, Sesh...
I am starting to conclude that everything we think we know is wrong and we have all been snowballed by our leaders.

I'm writing my name in for all future elections.
That way i can vote for someone i actually believe in and i exercise my civic duty.

[HELLVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I'd like to hear AssVibes and Warpigs defense of witholding these images by The Pentagon

National Security?

Okay, here's a photo they didn't want you to see. It's supposed to be female marines showing prisoners how to form a pyramid.:D

[HELLVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I'd like to hear AssVibes and Warpigs defense of witholding these images by The Pentagon

National Security?

Okay, here's a photo they didn't want you to see. It's supposed to be female marines showing prisoners how to form a pyramid.:D