BUSH: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught In Schools

[Nickdfresh]

Bush: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught

Tuesday, August 2, 2005

(08-02) 04:05 PDT WASHINGTON, (AP) --

President Bush said Monday he believes schools should discuss "intelligent design" alongside evolution when teaching students about the creation of life.

During a round-table interview with reporters from five Texas newspapers, Bush declined to go into detail on his personal views of the origin of life. But he said students should learn about both theories, Knight Ridder Newspapers reported.

"I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought," Bush said. "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes."

The theory of intelligent design says life on earth is too complex to have developed through evolution, implying that a higher power must have had a hand in creation.

Christian conservatives — a substantial part of Bush's voting base — have been pushing for the teaching of intelligent design in public schools. Scientists have rejected the theory as an attempt to force religion into science education.

On other topics during the group interview, the president:

_Refused to discuss the investigation into whether political aide Karl Rove or any other White House official leaked a CIA officer's identity, but he stood behind Rove. "Karl's got my complete confidence. He's a valuable member of my team," Bush said.

_Said he did not ask Supreme Court nominee John Roberts about his views on Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that legalized abortion.

_Said he hopes to work with Congress to pass an immigration reform bill this fall, including provisions for guest workers and enhanced security along the U.S.-Mexico border.

Bush spoke with reporters from the San Antonio Express-News, the Houston Chronicle, The Dallas Morning News, the Fort Worth Star-Telegram and The Austin American-Statesman.

Link (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/08/01/national/w200833D87.DTL)

So? What other unsupportable mythological, magic bullshit should be taught? America: keeping our children ignorant in an increasingly competitive and technology driven world. No child left behind...;)

[Nickdfresh]

Oooh-gaaah!
http://us.ent4.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/tv_pix/nbc/saturday_night_live_episode_photos/_group_photos/julia_sweeney13.jpg

Ooops! I think I meant Raquel WELCH, not "Barbra'" Bach. No child indeed! Ha ha...

http://images.art.com/images/PRODUCTS/large/10104000/10104209.jpg

[Warham]

I don't see anything wrong with it, if you have several different alternatives, like evolution. The athiests got their way, so why shouldn't the people who believe in a higher power?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't see anything wrong with it, if you have several different alternatives, like evolution. The athiests got their way, so why shouldn't the people who believe in a higher power?

It's a waste of time and valuable resources. Kids have enough to learn today, teachers have enough material they can't cover already, without having to be force fed religion derived, creationist euphemisms.

Fucking spare me with the "atheist" evolution crap. If you want to teach kids theology, take it to Sunday school and read the Bible at home.

Americans are ignorant enough when it comes to science....

[Seshmeister]

You want the truth?

You can't handle the truth...


http://vn.kominet.ru:8101/Pic/bush-chimp.jpg

[FORD]

The irony here is that I never believed in Darwinism until they put a Chimp in the White House.

[academic punk]

Complex topic.

Overall, the school year is already compressed enough and I think we're playing a dangerous game by virtually dismissing science.

Then again, if parents can have their kids excused from the room for sex ed, shouldn't they be able to have a say in what kind of science they learn?

But here's the provision: if you go with "intelligent deisgn", you forever cede your right to go to your doctor for a check-up, or medical attention. Why? Because if all this design is from someone else, as the Christian Scientists say, then if God wants to fix something, he will on his own. He can create something as complex as the ocular units, then He can fix your ingrown toenail or yourpersistent vegatative state without human/medical intervention.

[Seshmeister]

I think the only other countries that teach creationism in schools are the 'Axis of Evil', Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

Funny that...

Also maybe some people running about in loincloths streaked with their own shit making ugh ugh noises in the deepest Amazon.

[BigBadBrian]

Better yet, let's take all discussion of how man came into being out of science in grades K - 12. There is simply no need for it. None. Most courses and teachers only give the subject a cursory glance anyway. This is a subject better off left to the college years.


OR......

If people insist on having it in High School, more than one theory can and should be taught.

:gulp:

[knuckleboner]

the devil is, as they say, in the details:

personally, i've always believed in some form of so-called, intelligent design.

taking the SCIENCE of how the universe began, we can go all the way back to the big bang, but scientists can't tell you what started it. it's impossible.

for me, it makes more sense that some intelligent, all-powerful entity set the big bang in motion intentionally, than thinking that it all just occurred randomly out of nothing.


nonetheless, science does not, and CAN NOT point to that. there is no evidence, whatsoever to support it.

it's either faith or speculation, depending on how you look at it. but neither belong in a scientific debate without at least some evidence to bolster them.


by themselves, evolution and the big bang do not preclude there being a higher power that set things in motion. (in fact, it's what i personally believe.) but currently, that's a concept more suited to the spiritual arena, rather than the schoolhall.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
for me, it makes more sense that some intelligent, all-powerful entity set the big bang in motion intentionally, than thinking that it all just occurred randomly out of nothing.


But that begs the question of where the "intelligent, all-powerful entity" came from -- did it just occur randomly out of nothing?

I agree with you that science cannot answer either of these questions.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
But that begs the question of where the "intelligent, all-powerful entity" came from -- did it just occur randomly out of nothing?

I agree with you that science cannot answer either of these questions.

But I can :cool:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Better yet, let's take all discussion of how man came into being out of science in grades K - 12. There is simply no need for it. None. Most courses and teachers only give the subject a cursory glance anyway. This is a subject better off left to the college years.


OR......

If people insist on having it in High School, more than one theory can and should be taught.

:gulp:

But it's ok to start the indoctrination of superstitions when they are only 3 years old?

The fact that a lot people escape from it despite that, shows how silly it all is.

[Cathedral]

Teach all points of view or teach nothing, that's what i say.
Until science can prove how it all started they can't disprove the existance of God any more than they can prove he does.

5 year olds are like a computer in the respect that they do what they are programmed to do until around age 13, then they rebell.

So cover all the bases and let them grow up to make their own decisions.
All of mankind is flawed and led by it's own individual understanding.

[Seshmeister]

So teach them Jesterstar's view on how to spell?

[Cathedral]

They can dedicate an entire semester on how to be hungry for the cock.

[Seshmeister]

Ooof!:)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Better yet, let's take all discussion of how man came into being out of science in grades K - 12. There is simply no need for it. None. Most courses and teachers only give the subject a cursory glance anyway. This is a subject better off left to the college years.


That's absurd. Again, there is no need for it? Says you! How are kids going to be even prepared for college if they don't have basic scientific concepts such as evolution?


OR......

If people insist on having it in High School, more than one theory can and should be taught.

:gulp:

Intelligent design is the teaching of religion. Teach it in church.

[DLR'sCock]

UH this is complete bullshit. Now I know that there is a God and that there is wayyyyyyyy more going on in life than meets the eyes, ears, noses, mouths, and skins of our fellow peeps, but let's be rational... Science is one thing, and Religious specualtion, spirituality, philosophy, and faith are another.

Separate the two. This idea of "Intelligent Design" is a subject that should be left to a Religious, Spiritual, Philisophical, and or Faith based sort of class. At the same time, it should be put up against other ideas and beliefs, religions.



What we know of the world and existence based on Science is stand alone.



Do not confuse the two, you will fuck up kids even more than they are....


Then again these fuckers want that....

[Nickdfresh]

The point here is that the term "Intelligent Design" is just a bullshit dress up of Creationism.

It is totally rejected by science and has grown into some bizzarro anti-science because people can't accept that you have to have a direct link to God to acknowledge it's existence...And a lot of people get taken in with the Intelligent Design double-speak euphemism because yes, to me at least, it does make sense that some force had a hand in creation. But I don't need some teacher grudgingly trudging through some invented, fantasy bullshit made up by hack psuedo-scientists to reaffirm that in any way.

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Teach all points of view or teach nothing, that's what i say.
Until science can prove how it all started they can't disprove the existance of God any more than they can prove he does.

5 year olds are like a computer in the respect that they do what they are programmed to do until around age 13, then they rebell.

So cover all the bases and let them grow up to make their own decisions.
All of mankind is flawed and led by it's own individual understanding.

You are missing the point. Teach the idea of God/Zeus/Chronos/Wotin/nothing, etc etc etc etc creating life, and all of the other shit in a Religious, Spiritual, Philisophical class, and argue about ALL OF THE SIDES AND IDEOLOGIES TILL THE COWS COME HOME, but you need to include ALL viewpoits, ALL!!!!!!



Science is one thing, and is stand alone for a reason. Leave it be....


Man, they really want to dumb down people even moreso....they really do....

[Nickdfresh]

Double-post.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't see anything wrong with it, if you have several different alternatives, like evolution. The athiests got their way, so why shouldn't the people who believe in a higher power?

In science class? Do you know what the word science means?

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
In science class? Do you know what the word science means?


Isn't it obvious what he does and doesn't understand at this point.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
Isn't it obvious what he does and doesn't understand at this point.

definitely not logic

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
You are missing the point. Teach the idea of God/Zeus/Chronos/Wotin/nothing, etc etc etc etc creating life, and all of the other shit in a Religious, Spiritual, Philisophical class, and argue about ALL OF THE SIDES AND IDEOLOGIES TILL THE COWS COME HOME, but you need to include ALL viewpoits, ALL!!!!!!



Science is one thing, and is stand alone for a reason. Leave it be....


Man, they really want to dumb down people even moreso....they really do....


LMMFAO, I've got to learn to be clearer on what i type.

I read your post and was like, YES, Exactly!

Then i noticed you quoted me stating i missed the point.

I was trying to say the same damn thing you did, just not successfully, lmmfao.
So, let me clearify, I'VE GOTTA GOTTA CLEARIFY!

My angle was from the viewpoint that for years and years Science has promoted evolution over creationism, so, in order to be fair ALL points of view should be represented in the classroom.

Science in and of itself is a stand alone subject, at least in my past it was all about doing cool experiements and stuff like that.
Never in my school days did it ever enter a biblical forum.

But this thread got me thinking that since they have collided into one, at least in some folks minds, seperate all of them.
Give students a choice of a secondary science class that begins with the BIG BANG Theory.
Then allow the kids to choose the point of view from their religious beliefs.
Like say, Science, then the secondary course of Christian Creation, Islamic Creation etc.

You see my point, or did i fuck it all up again, lol.

But basically, you and I are on the same page here.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
That's absurd. Again, there is no need for it? Says you! How are kids going to be even prepared for college if they don't have basic scientific concepts such as evolution?



It's a theory, and a rather shabby one to boot. Scientists have NEVER been able to connect the dots.

Like Cat said, taach more than one theory to get the kids to THINK.


THINK.....instead of swallowing whole of what Liberal America wants them to. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
definitely not logic

You've seen the light. Logic has no place in a discussion where you are involved.

It's "Fingers and Toes Time" for the simpleton, ODShowtime.

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
You are missing the point. Teach the idea of God/Zeus/Chronos/Wotin/nothing, etc etc etc etc creating life, and all of the other shit in a Religious, Spiritual, Philisophical class, and argue about ALL OF THE SIDES AND IDEOLOGIES TILL THE COWS COME HOME, but you need to include ALL viewpoits, ALL!!!!!!

Ridiculous.

Are you to say we take Greek and Roman Literature out of Modern American English Classes because they can religion? Alot of other literature kids are exposed to contain religion.

Creationism should be taught, not as fact, but as theory, just like evolution. Period.

[Warham]

Irreducible complexities. ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
It's a theory, and a rather shabby one to boot. Scientists have NEVER been able to connect the dots.

Bullshit. No unintelligent design "theory" stands up to any kind of serious scrutiny. It's largely a "negative theory" that is set to attack evolution as opposed to one that explains anything. It's sort of like Scientologists criticizing psychiatry.;)


Like Cat said, taach more than one theory to get the kids to THINK.

Sure, let's waste classroom teach them alternative, conspiracy theory history to boot.:rolleyes: Never mind that they have little or no validity...



THINK.....instead of swallowing whole of what Liberal America wants them to. ;)

Thinking is the purview of science, something you seem to reject. And by Liberal America, if you mean the products of the Enlightenment, then Thomas JEFFERSON and Ben FRANKLIN were "Liberals" in your view. How about teaching them not to be superstitious dolts easily manipulated by dogmatists, so they can truly think for themselves to boot.:)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Ridiculous.

Are you to say we take Greek and Roman Literature out of Modern American English Classes because they can religion? Alot of other literature kids are exposed to contain religion.

Creationism should be taught, not as fact, but as theory, just like evolution. Period.

I think the big misconception that some Americans like you have is that evolution is just some theory. You confuse Darwins original theory which has in the last 100 years been repeatedly and without exception empirically and objectively proved.

In response to this is held up a book with a thousand inconsistencies, with much obvious fantasy which has been rewritten in the biggest game of Chinese whispers in history.

Why don't you call the Earth not being flat as a theory?

You can have religion and science in harmony to an extent about the unknown, spiritual and moral matters, that's what the rest of the world outside the US and a few fundamentalist muslim states do. What happened in the first 100th of a second of the Big Bang? What was before that? The problem for the creationists is that takes more thought and intelligence than the simple fairy tales of a 6000 year old Earth or sticking every creature on the Earth in a boat and breeding them afterwards.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Ridiculous.

Are you to say we take Greek and Roman Literature out of Modern American English Classes because they can religion? Alot of other literature kids are exposed to contain religion.

Creationism should be taught, not as fact, but as theory, just like evolution. Period.

I once taught those classics as mythology and perhaps as an allegory, not an explanation for reality...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You've seen the light. Logic has no place in a discussion where you are involved.

It's "Fingers and Toes Time" for the simpleton, ODShowtime.

:gulp:

come again? :confused:

I'm sayin, there's no place for any religion in SCIENCE class. Science is a field in which things must be PROVEN to be believed.

You can teach that "intelligent design" bullshit in fairy tale class. BTW, it's the pretty much what I believe in, but it's not science.

[Nickdfresh]

I wonder if BUSH also thinks that school nurses should put leeches on the kiddies to "bleed" them of their impurities?:)
http://snl.jt.org/arc/char/Steve%20Martin-Theodoric.jpg

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I wonder if BUSH also thinks that school nurses should put leeches on the kiddies to "bleed" them of their impurities?:)

why not? no one's ever proven it wrong except those blasted scientists!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I wonder if BUSH also thinks that school nurses should put leeches on the kiddies to "bleed" them of their impurities?:)

One of the biggest ironies about 'born again Bush' and his pals is that they built their power and wealth on the advice of Geologists finding them oil yet choose to ignore the rest of the science when it comes to fossil records and the age of the Earth.

[Warham]

The Bible doesn't say the Earth is 6,000 years old Sesh.

I wish you would do your research before saying things like that.

The Bible, in fact, mentions no age for the Earth or the amount of time it took for organisms to form on it's surface. It's actually quite easy to have evolution fit in quite nicely with scripture.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
One of the biggest ironies about 'born again Bush' and his pals is that they built their power and wealth on the advice of Geologists finding them oil yet choose to ignore the rest of the science when it comes to fossil records and the age of the Earth.

Thery're just placating the backward Bible belt by pandering to another phoney "Christian" pet pieve...

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
The Bible doesn't say the Earth is 6,000 years old Sesh.



A lot of creationists seem to think it does.

[steve]

Religion IS NOT science.

Science is a rigorous system where you can TEST hypothesis and turn them into theory.
NO RELIGION approaches being a theory.
A theory is EXTREMELY TOUGH to demostrate, and is a VERY high standard.

That said, I WELCOME creationism to be taught in school...just in RELIGION classes where students are exposed to several different mythos and ethics philophies grounded in faith.

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Ridiculous.

Are you to say we take Greek and Roman Literature out of Modern American English Classes because they can religion? Alot of other literature kids are exposed to contain religion.

Creationism should be taught, not as fact, but as theory, just like evolution. Period.


Again, you missed the point.

You cannot simply say Creationism is a theory, or moreso a Scientific Theory to counter Evolution, becasue I am pretty sure this creationism stuff cannot even be considered a Scientific Theory.


Her are some definitions to maybe make thigns a little clearer.

scientific theory - a theory that explains scientific observations; "scientific theories must be falsifiable"

theory - a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena; "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory"


hypothesis - a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena; "a scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory"; "he proposed a fresh theory of alkalis that later was accepted in chemical practices"

hypothesis - a proposal intended to explain certain facts or observations


hypothesis - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence

scientific method - a method of investigation involving observation and theory to test scientific hypotheses
experimental method - the use of controlled observations and measurements to test hypotheses
methodology - the system of methods followed in a particular discipline



Look, if you want a creationsim idea taught, then it is one subject that is taught within a basic religious studies class, or what is known as a theological studies class that studies the basics of ALL RELIGIONS, incuding "how the world started" according to each religion, etc etc blah blah blah.....but you lunatics think you're going to get a "Creationsim Class" to counteract basic Science, then you;re out of your mind. Oh yeah, I forgot who I am talking to.....Creationism is a Religious idea, based religious texts written by men thousands of years ago.


Oh, and I know there is more going on here and I know(within my own mind) that God exists, or something higher does....

[Seshmeister]

Hey Nick you are a trained teaching expert.

I was thinking given that Mezro has just added another forum why don't I ask them to have a Frontline Tutorial Forum?

We could then give people like BBB one to one tuition in it and try and get them up to everyone else's level?

I hear that one to one tuition can help the slower people. Do you agree?

Have we some people here willing to give some time to educating those that are having difficulties keeping up?

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
A lot of creationists seem to think it does.

Most creationists don't truly read the Bible for themselves. They simply trust what their neighbor tells them because they are too lazy to search out the truth for themselves.
In actuality, creationists who are worth a darn do actually believe that mankind will be on the earth for 6000 years. But as posted earlier, nothing in the Bible states a duration of time that the earth has actually existed.

[Rebel]

I personally don't think intelligent design should be taught in science class. I'm a fairly conservative person, grew up in the middle of "the Bible Belt", but I just don't think high school is the appropriate place, at least IMO.

Which the amount of time in high school career devoted to this area is very minimal to begin with, much more is devoted to chemistry and biology, to prepare children for college, as well it should be.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't see anything wrong with it, if you have several different alternatives, like evolution. The athiests got their way, so why shouldn't the people who believe in a higher power?


Gee, I don't know.........



ISN'T THAT WHAT CHURCH IS FOR DUMBASS?????

Following your "logic", they damn well better teach ALL of the "alternatives"

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
The Bible doesn't say the Earth is 6,000 years old Sesh.

I wish you would do your research before saying things like that.

The Bible, in fact, mentions no age for the Earth or the amount of time it took for organisms to form on it's surface. It's actually quite easy to have evolution fit in quite nicely with scripture.

Yes, by all means, let's take the Bible Literally

Because it so chock full of fun facts and advice:rolleyes:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I was thinking given that Mezro has just added another forum why don't I ask them to have a Frontline Tutorial Forum?

We could then give people like BBB one to one tuition in it and try and get them up to everyone else's level?

We should at least post a link to a fuckin' dictionary. I guess DLR'sCock is already helping with that :cool:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Hey Nick you are a trained teaching expert.

I was thinking given that Mezro has just added another forum why don't I ask them to have a Frontline Tutorial Forum?

We could then give people like BBB one to one tuition in it and try and get them up to everyone else's level?

I hear that one to one tuition can help the slower people. Do you agree?

Have we some people here willing to give some time to educating those that are having difficulties keeping up?

Cheers!

:gulp:

Sorry, but I was trained as a secondary teacher...I'm not qualified to teach elementary/primary education.;) Besides, I'm letting my certification expire, and it has a lot to do with ignorant shit like this...

Perhaps I could start a reading comprehension tutoring plan for some of 'em.:) I think that may benefit some people greatly...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
Most creationists don't truly read the Bible for themselves. They simply trust what their neighbor tells them because they are too lazy to search out the truth for themselves.
In actuality, creationists who are worth a darn do actually believe that mankind will be on the earth for 6000 years. But as posted earlier, nothing in the Bible states a duration of time that the earth has actually existed.

Oh brother, it never fails to make me chuckle that somebody actually created a Falwell user ID on a DAVID LEE ROTH/Classic VAN HALEN board. They just don't get it.


Why would anyone read and research the Bible to check their facts as it relates to scientific knowledge anyways? That's the whole point, Bible study is a religious and literary endeavour. No one should have to check facts to enable their feeble arguments regarding "Intelligent" Design.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Sorry, but I was trained as a secondary teacher...I'm not qualified to teach elementary/primary education.;) Besides, I'm letting my certification expire, and it has a lot to do with ignorant shit like this...

Perhaps I could start a reading comprehension tutoring plan for some of 'em.:) I think that may benefit some people greatly...


Better yet, maybe they need remedial history to teach them about what the Founding Fathers of America, no matter what their personal failings were, actually meant and said.

It's funny that the United STATES of AMERICA was founded on the principles of rationality, The Age of REASON, and the Enlightenment. In many ways The DECLARATION of INDEPENDENCE is the rejection of politicized religion going on in EUROPE at the time, yet many in America want to return to the days of government fostered irrational superstitions as EUROPEANS have adopted OUR CONCEPT of a secular state with a clear firewall between religion and government...No wonder why they laugh at us.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
Most creationists don't truly read the Bible for themselves. They simply trust what their neighbor tells them because they are too lazy to search out the truth for themselves.
In actuality, creationists who are worth a darn do actually believe that mankind will be on the earth for 6000 years. But as posted earlier, nothing in the Bible states a duration of time that the earth has actually existed.

No, Falwell, most Creationists who follow bishop Ussher's addition believe in the 4004 year OT.

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Yes, by all means, let's take the Bible Literally

Because it so chock full of fun facts and advice:rolleyes:

The Bible isn't meant to be taken 100% literally. There is symbolism and parable throughout scriptures, heathen.

;)

[thome]

Why does something have to be proven to be REAL to you.

All you word smiths still haven't mentioned the word FAITH.

Anyone who doesn't believe in this word are doomsdayers
who are telling you the Sun will not rise tomorrow.

Grow your foot long beard get yourself a sign board write on it
the world will end NOW not tomorrow go have some Fun.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I wonder if BUSH also thinks that school nurses should put leeches on the kiddies to "bleed" them of their impurities?:)
http://snl.jt.org/arc/char/Steve%20Martin-Theodoric.jpg

That just may be true.

Maggots and leeches: Good medicine
By Rita Rubin, USA TODAY
Two medical devices recently approved by the Food and Drug Administration seem more likely to appear on Fear Factor than ER.


http://images.usatoday.com/life/_photos/2004/2004-07/08-leeches-inside.jpg
Your prescription is ready: Ohio pharmacist Greg Wellman shows off a container of medicinal leeches.


By Tim Revell, Columbus Dispatch via AP

Calling them "devices" is a stretch. But just like stimulators and stents, prostheses and pacemakers, leeches and maggots are now classified as FDA-approved medical devices — the first live animals to earn that distinction.

No question, the thought of getting up close and personal with leeches or maggots is enough to make most healthy people feel ill. But patients who have been treated with these "devices," as well as their doctors, credit them with restoring health to tissue when high-tech medicine could not.

Although a French firm's leeches were approved only last week and a California doctor's maggots were cleared in January, the creatures have long medical track records.

Companies that were already selling leeches before the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act became law in 1976 were grandfathered in and did not need FDA approval. The FDA only recently decided to regulate maggots, says internist Ronald Sherman, who earned the agency's permission in January to continue supplying the caterpillar-like fly larvae.

Leeches through history

Medicinal leeches are bloodsucking, aquatic cousins of the earthworm that hail from Europe. Doctors used leeches for bloodletting — thought to be good for whatever ailed patients — from Hippocrates' time through the mid-19th century. Leeches fell out of favor when doctors finally recognized that patients they bled fared no better, and often worse, than other patients.

BAD TASTING MEDICINE

Here's a remedy being tested for patients with inflammatory bowel diseases. It's a gastroenterologist's experimental concoction — spiced with 2,000 eggs of intestinal worms.

A new treatment for inflammatory bowel diseases may be worming its way into the medical armamentarium.

University of Iowa gastroenterologist Joel Weinstock developed the concoction, which consists of a popular beverage — he declines to name it — and 2,000 pig whipworm eggs per serving. The worms come from pigs raised at a local U.S. Department of Agriculture facility and then slaughtered.

Weinstock came up with the idea after observing that inflammatory bowel diseases are most common in industrialized countries, where modern sanitation had virtually eliminated the chance of people acquiring intestinal worms.

Though that's generally a good thing, it might raise the risk of developing inflammatory bowel disease in genetically predisposed people, Weinstock says. That's because intestinal worms dampen the immune response, which is in overdrive in inflammatory bowel disease, causing persistent diarrhea, abdominal pain, weight loss and fever. Medications can relieve symptoms but aren't a cure.


Weinstock chose to test pig whipworms because they don't venture out of the gut, they don't survive more than six or eight weeks and they don't appear to make people sick. Their eggs are less than half the size of a grain of sand, so they're basically undetectable in Weinstock's drink. The worms, which are less than half an inch long and thinner than a human hair, emerge in the gut.

Weinstock has tested worm therapy in 120 patients with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, the two types of inflammatory bowel disease, which affect up to 1 million Americans. The treatment was tolerated well and appeared to improve symptoms. "It's likely to be effective in both diseases," Weinstock says. He hopes to conduct a larger, multicenter trial of the therapy. By Rita Rubin



It's often trickier to connect veins, which carry blood back to the heart, than arteries, which carry blood from the heart. So before grafted tissue gets new vein growth, it can become congested with blood. Sometimes surgery can fix the problem, but if it can't, the graft might fail.

Enter the leech. Not only does it suck out excess blood, but its saliva contains a powerful blood thinner. So even after it fills up and drops off, bleeding continues.

Douglas Chepeha, an ear, nose and throat surgeon at the University of Michigan, treats two or three patients a year with leeches after rebuilding faces or mouths decimated by cancer.

Typically, leeches are used one at a time and replaced as they drop off — usually every 20 minutes — for 24 to 48 hours, then intermittently for a few days afterward, Chepeha says.

"I've never had anybody refuse," Chepeha says. "They've come in with a serious cancer, they've had part of a critical organ removed, they want to get better. You say to them: 'I think this could help.' People have been amazingly stoic about it."

Normally pretty squeamish, Alyssa Kieff, 22, of Marrero, La., tolerated five days of leech therapy in April. Kieff's beagle had snapped at her and tore off her right upper eyelid, which was reattached microsurgically by Kamran Khoobehi, a Louisiana State University Health Sciences Center plastic surgeon.

Kieff, who returned to her receptionist job a month after surgery, wasn't quite as enthusiastic. Still, she says, "I knew it had to be done to help the eyelid survive. I didn't think about it."

Two U.S. companies sell medicinal leeches for about $7.50 apiece. They're usually on call in hospital pharmacy refrigerators.

Compared with leeches, maggots are tiny things. But their association with rotting flesh may make them even more off-putting than leeches — until you talk to someone who's been treated with them.

Maggots to the rescue

Three years ago, a small cut on the bottom of Pam Mitchell's foot became seriously infected as a result of diabetes. After surgery to remove diseased tissue, Mitchell, who had worked as a waitress for 20 years, was left with a hole in her foot that was 1 inch deep and 2 inches across. And still, the infection raged. Antibiotics were powerless against it.

"They were telling me I should think about amputation," says Mitchell, who is from Akron, Ohio.

But then a co-worker told Mitchell of a TV show she had seen about using maggots to heal wounds. Desperate to save her foot, Mitchell found a dermatologist, Eliot Mostow, who thought maggot therapy was worth a try. Luckily, her insurance covered the $75-a-session treatments.

Mostow applied disinfected maggots to her wound and covered them with a cagelike dressing. The maggots liquefied dead tissue, killed harmful bacteria and stimulated healing. After 48 hours, Mitchell's orthopedist removed the maggot dressing. After 10 treatments, her foot was well on its way to being healed. "It's amazing," she says. "There's hardly even a scar there."

Today, Mitchell serves on the board of the non-profit Biotherapeutics Education and Research Foundation, which promotes the medical use of maggots and leeches and provides them to patients who lack insurance coverage. Sherman, an Irvine, Calif., internist, is the group's CEO and only U.S. maggot supplier.

To say Sherman is mad about maggots is like saying Spider-Man 2 is doing OK at the box office. "He really is Dr. Maggot in my mind," Mostow says. "He knows more about this than anybody else."

Through the years, Sherman says, military surgeons noticed that soldiers with maggot-infested wounds did better than similarly wounded soldiers without the infestation.

Sherman began treating patients with maggots in 1990. By 1993, as word got out about his success in saving limbs scheduled for amputation, other hospitals began asking him for maggots. By 1994 or 1995, Sherman says, he was getting so many requests that he began charging a nominal fee to cover the materials and his time.

Today, Sherman says, he supplies blow fly maggots to 300 sites around the country, including Washington Hospital Center in Washington, D.C., which used them to treat victims of the terrorist attack on the Pentagon. "They're lifesaving," says James Jeng, a burn specialist at the hospital.

Sherman says relatively few of his customers are willing to go public. "Some administrators," he says, "have expressed the view that the public will think the hospital is old-fashioned or, worse, unhygienic."

USATODAY Article on Maggots and Leeches in Modern Medicine (http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
The Bible isn't meant to be taken 100% literally. There is symbolism and parable throughout scriptures, heathen.

;)


Heathen.

uhu uhu uhu uhu huh huh uhu uhu huhuh uhu

:killer:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Warham
The Bible isn't meant to be taken 100% literally. There is symbolism and parable throughout scriptures, heathen.


Except for those parts about homosexuality right? ;)

[FORD]

I don't know about the intestinal worms, but I could see leeches used medically, say if you have some large ugly bruised areas on the body. As long as there's no internal bleeding causing the problem, let the little bastards suck it out. As long as they're sterile anyway.

[Guitar Shark]

Obviously, you've never seen Stand By Me.

Leeches bad.

[Nickdfresh]

I was aware of the leeches and maggots thing, but since school nurses generally don't do skin graphs to attach major organs after a playground mishap, I highly doubt they be using them.

[ODShowtime]

good job BBB. They do use leaches on hacked off thumbs and shit.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
But that begs the question of where the "intelligent, all-powerful entity" came from -- did it just occur randomly out of nothing?

I agree with you that science cannot answer either of these questions.

eh, i assume the intelligent, all-powerful entity always was. otherwise, it's no different than us. created by something else.

and yeah, that's definitely a leap of faith. or at least, a leap of common sense. but so is the atheist argument.

1) something from nothing.
2) something from an infinite deity.

and i don't exactly see any reform party, 3rd choices...

[Seshmeister]

The atheist argument isn't a leap anywhere.

It's just a case of not making shit up because you don't know the answer.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
eh, i assume the intelligent, all-powerful entity always was. otherwise, it's no different than us. created by something else.

and yeah, that's definitely a leap of faith. or at least, a leap of common sense. but so is the atheist argument.

1) something from nothing.
2) something from an infinite deity.

and i don't exactly see any reform party, 3rd choices...

AGNOSTICISM (http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm)

[Mr Grimsdale]

Huysenbergs uncertainty principle works wonders. These damned computers wouldn't work without it. Electrons appear and disappear, energy is constant it just changes forms. QED.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
Huysenbergs uncertainty principle works wonders. These damned computers wouldn't work without it. Electrons appear and disappear, energy is constant it just changes forms. QED.

Very Star Trek...:)

If you get all the shit that was around when the Earth was formed 4 billion years ago and add what was there i.e. boiling water, methane, amonia etc and throw in some electricity (which would be from electrical storms) you get amino acids within a week. You can do this in a high school chemistry lab, in fact that's where it was initially proved. Amino acids change into RNA which in turn turns into DNA which turns into religious nuts, it just takes a bit of time.

It's amazing that a country like the US whose economy is built on science and technology has so many people that know absolutely fuck all about it.

Your schools must suck.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Cathedral]

Sesh, all i can say to you is what i have always said to you, or did i forget to say it?

I dunno, anyway, Ya just better hope you're right and everyone else was wrong.
Because if everyone else is right, and you are wrong...........Well, from where i currently sit in the grand scheme, we'll both have an eternity to talk it over in "depth", lmmfao.

[Seshmeister]

:)

I'd rather spend eternity with you than Jerry Falwell...actually that's not saying much LMAO.

Actually I hope I'm wrong but the evidence is against it...

[Cathedral]

Awe man, that was harsh.
Man, i thought we was tight n stuff? lmmfao...

But there is an error in that post.
Jerry Falwell ain't gonna be up top either, bro.
None of thos over judgemental money grubbin' prophets of fear will be.

So, better be safe than very very sorry, at least that's what i always say. :)

You could end up with both of us in Hell's Pub, one of us on the right, the other on the left.

Sweet Dreams, Pal, rotmfflmmfao................

[Seshmeister]

Just as much chance the Muslims are right and at least they can prove their guy existed...

Ah well virgin's can be clumsy with their blowjobs in any case...:)

[Seshmeister]

Saw a spokesman from the Intelligent Design camp explain how the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood.

5000 feet of granite etched in a few weeks by water....

It was very funny though kind of scary too. A bit like watching a profeesional wrestling audience.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Warham]

The water from the Flood covered the Earth for about a year.

Besides that, they are trying hard to fit it all in with the flood, which isn't necessary.

[Seshmeister]

A week or a year what's the difference...:)

If the Noah's Ark story isn't allegory then nothing is.