Trashing our history; Hiroshima

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • BigBadBrian
    TOASTMASTER GENERAL
    • Jan 2004
    • 10625

    Trashing our history; Hiroshima

    Trashing our history; Hiroshima
    Thomas Sowell

    August 9, 2005

    Every August, there are some Americans who insist on wringing their hands over the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, so it was perhaps inevitable that such people would have an orgy of wallowing in guilt on the 60th anniversary of that tragic day. Time magazine has page after page of photographs of people scarred by the radiation, as if General Sherman had not already said long ago that war is hell.

    Winston Churchill once spoke of the secrets of the atom, "hitherto mercifully withheld from man." We can all lament that this terrible power of mass destruction has been revealed to the world and fear its ominous consequences for us all, including our children and grandchildren. But that is wholly different from saying that a great moral evil was committed when the first atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

    What was new about these bombs was the technology, not the morality. More people were killed with ordinary bombs in German cities or in Tokyo. Vastly more people were killed with ordinary bullets and cannon on the Russian front. Morality is about what you do to people, not the technology you use.

    The guilt-mongers have twisted the facts of history beyond recognition in order to say that it was unnecessary to drop those atomic bombs. Japan was going to lose the war anyway, they say. What they don't say is -- at what price in American lives? Or even in Japanese lives?

    Much of the self-righteous nonsense that abounds on so many subjects cannot stand up to three questions: (1) Compared to what? (2) At what cost? and (3) What are the hard facts?

    The alternative to the atomic bombs was an invasion of Japan, which was already being planned for 1946, and those plans included casualty estimates even more staggering than the deaths that have left a sea of crosses in American cemeteries at Normandy and elsewhere. "Revisionist" historians have come up with casualty estimates a small fraction of what the American and British military leaders responsible for planning the invasion of Japan had come up with.

    Who are we to believe, those who had personally experienced the horrors of the war in the Pacific, and who had a lifetime of military experience, or leftist historians hot to find something else to blame America for?

    During the island-hopping war in the Pacific, it was not uncommon for thousands of Japanese troops to fight to the death on an island, while the number captured were a few dozen. Even some Japanese soldiers too badly wounded to stand would lie where they fell until an American medical corpsman approached to treat their wounds -- and then they would set off a grenade to kill them both.

    In the air the same spirit led the kamikaze pilots to deliberately crash their planes into American ships and bombers.

    Japan's plans for defense against invasion involved mobilizing the civilian population, including women and children, for the same suicidal battle tactics. That invasion could have been the greatest bloodbath in history.

    No mass killing, especially of civilians, can leave any humane person happy. But compared to what? Compared to killing many times more Japanese and seeing many times more American die?

    We might have gotten a negotiated peace if we had dropped the "unconditional surrender" demand. But at what cost? Seeing a militaristic Japan arise again in a few years, this time armed with nuclear weapons that they would not have hesitated for one minute to drop on Americans.

    As it was, the unconditional surrender of Japan enabled General Douglas MacArthur to engineer one of the great historic transformations of a nation from militarism to pacifism, to the relief of hundreds of millions of their neighbors, who had suffered horribly at the hands of their Japanese conquerors.

    The facts may deprive the revisionists of their platform for lashing out at America and for the ego trip of moral preening but, fear not, they will find or manufacture other occasions for that. The rest of us need to understand what irresponsible frauds they are -- and how the stakes are too high to let the 4th estate succeed as a 5th column undermining the society on which our children and grandchildren's security will depend.
    Thomas Sowell
    “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush
  • BigBadBrian
    TOASTMASTER GENERAL
    • Jan 2004
    • 10625

    #2
    The A-bomb was a lifesaver
    Jeff Jacoby

    August 8, 2005

    The 60th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has arrived with little of the fury that accompanied the 50th. A decade ago, a bruising battle broke out over the Smithsonian Institution's plan for an exhibit suggesting that the American use of atomic weapons had been a racist war crime that served no legitimate military aim.

    With a restored Enola Gay -- the B-29 Superfortress that delivered the first bomb on Aug. 6, 1945 -- as a centerpiece, the Smithsonian's curators had intended to tell a story of American brutality and Japanese victimhood. “For most Americans,” their original script declared, “this war was fundamentally different from the one waged against Germany and Italy -- it was a war of vengeance. For most Japanese, it was a war to defend their unique culture against Western imperialism.” Such slanted revisionism pervaded the text, which The Washington Post rightly summed up as “incredibly propagandistic and intellectually shabby.”

    To convey the human suffering in the Pacific theater, for instance, museum officials selected 103 photographs -- 96 depicting Japanese victims, seven of Americans. By contrast, of the 70 photos that showed armed combatants, 65 were of Americans, only five of Japanese. While the original script quoted just one (anonymous) Japanese statement of anti-American hostility, it included no fewer than 10 American expressions of enmity toward Japan. Comparing the two “home fronts,” the script sketched an America of high wages, Frank Sinatra, and entrenched racism, while Japan was described in terms of hungry children, noble kamikaze pilots, and imported slave labor made necessary by “severe manpower shortages.”

    Not surprisingly, the proposed exhibit evoked furious protests from veterans groups, military historians, and Congress, and after months of controversy the Smithsonian agreed to scrap its tendentious account. When the Enola Gay finally went on display, the accompanying text played the history straight. The bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki “destroyed much of the two cities and caused many tens of thousands of deaths,” it noted. “However, the use of the bombs led to the immediate surrender of Japan and made unnecessary the planned invasion of the Japanese home islands. Such an invasion, especially if undertaken for both main islands, would have led to very heavy casualties among Americans, Allied, and Japanese armed forces and Japanese civilians.”

    Ten years later, the revisionists are still going strong. An article in the radical journal CounterPunch, for example, labels the attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki “the worst terror attacks in history,” and trots out the old canard that their real purpose was to intimidate the Soviet Union. In the Los Angeles Times the other day, Kai Bird and Martin Sherwin asserted as “unpleasant historical facts” that “the atomic bombings were unnecessary,” serving only to devastate an “essentially defeated enemy.”

    But the vast majority of Americans who lived through World War II would have regarded such glib judgments as preposterous. Paul Fussell, the historian and literary critic, spoke for millions when he titled his famous essay on the end of the Pacific war “Thank God for the Atom Bomb.”

    Like countless young men in August 1945, Fussell was waiting to be shipped off to Asia for the planned invasion of Japan. He didn't expect to survive it. The fighting in Okinawa and Iwo Jima had already resulted in a horrific bloodbath and that was but a fraction of the toll that could be expected in the battle for Japan itself.

    “On Okinawa, only weeks before Hiroshima, 123,000 Japanese and Americans *killed*each other,” Fussell wrote. A 21-year-old infantry officer, he had already been wounded twice in Europe; “the very idea of more combat made me breathe in gasps and shake all over.” So when the atom bombs were dropped, “we broke down and cried with relief and joy. We were going to live. We were going to grow to adulthood after all. The killing was all going to be over.”



    More than ever before, the historical record confirms what those soldiers knew in their gut: Hiroshima and Nagasaki, hideous as they were, shortened the war that Japan had begun and thereby saved an immensity of lives. Far from considering itself “essentially defeated,” the Japanese military was preparing for an Allied assault with a massive buildup in the south. It was only the shock of the atomic blasts that enabled Japanese leaders who wanted to stop the fighting to successfully press for a surrender.

    “We of the peace party were assisted by the atomic bomb in our endeavor to end the war,” Kido Koichi, one of Emperor Hirohito's closest aides, later recalled. Hisatsune Sakomizu, the chief cabinet secretary, called the bomb “a golden opportunity given by heaven for Japan to end the war.” That is still the right way to see it. President Truman's decision to use the new weapons stopped a war that would otherwise have raged savagely on, and made possible the transformation of Japan from vicious aggressor to peaceful democracy. Six decades after August 1945, it is clear: The bomb made the world a better place.
    Link
    “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

    Comment

    • thome
      ROTH ARMY ELITE
      • Mar 2005
      • 6678

      #3
      History is rewritten wrong in here every day
      and i guess everywere including mags the tv news and
      by despots like saddam his people still believe in their ignorance.
      the mid east fills up daily with anti american propaganda

      The bombs dropped on japan are so uncomparable to tragedy
      with their allegience to hitlers death camps and how american & british
      pows were treated.

      F em back then now they are one of the worlds shinning stars

      Comment

      • Nickdfresh
        SUPER MODERATOR

        • Oct 2004
        • 49567

        #4
        Originally posted by BigBadBrian
        The A-bomb was a lifesaver
        Jeff Jacoby

        Historical speculation at best...There are many that don't buy the "huge casualties when we invade JAPAN theory." The RED ARMY slaughtered the JAPANESE in open Manchurian plains using their tanks. This was because the JAPANESE had nothing to stop them with and their soldiers, instead of becoming the suicidal maniacs, became catatonic and surrendered en masse. Our casualty projections were based on fighting dug in troops on rocky, mountainous Pacific atolls, not the open plains (ideal tank and artillery country) of Japan proper.

        It may have been similar for the US and Brits once we landed and got our heavy armor ashore. In any case, I'm not saying I wouldn't have dropped the bomb, we butchered Japanese civilians using firebombs, what's the difference using an A-bomb? But perhaps they could have chosen a more military of a target, like the huge TOKYO Naval Yard which was difficult to target with conventional explosives.

        Comment

        • BigBadBrian
          TOASTMASTER GENERAL
          • Jan 2004
          • 10625

          #5
          Originally posted by Nickdfresh
          Historical speculation at best...There are many that don't buy the "huge casualties when we invade JAPAN theory." The RED ARMY slaughtered the JAPANESE in open Manchurian plains using their tanks. This was because the JAPANESE had nothing to stop them with and their soldiers, instead of becoming the suicidal maniacs, became catatonic and surrendered en masse. Our casualty projections were based on fighting dug in troops on rocky, mountainous Pacific atolls, not the open plains (ideal tank and artillery country) of Japan proper.

          It may have been similar for the US and Brits once we landed and got our heavy armor ashore. In any case, I'm not saying I wouldn't have dropped the bomb, we butchered Japanese civilians using firebombs, what's the difference using an A-bomb? But perhaps they could have chosen a more military of a target, like the huge TOKYO Naval Yard which was difficult to target with conventional explosives.
          It really doesn't matter, does it? Look at it this way: You're a commander who can save troops by using a weapon or you can go in and take either heavy OR light casualties. Even light casualties to American troops was more than what was done with the A-Bomb option. Japanese casualties probably were not much of a factor in the end decision. American casualties were.

          It's the same way with Berlin. The Americans and British could have easily beat the Russians to Berlin. Most Germans would have actually preferred that. But why spill British and American blood on territory that had already been decided would be Russian-governed after the war was over? It didn't make any sense.

          “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

          Comment

          • Redballjets88
            Full Member Status

            • Mar 2005
            • 4469

            #6
            yeah we could have invaded but armor wouldnt have helped considering 80% of japan is mountainous and the 20% that isnt is highly populated urban areas
            R.I.P Van Halen 1978-1984

            hopefully God will ressurect you

            "i wont be messing with you in future.the fearsome redballjets88 for fear of you owning me some more" Axl S


            " I liked Sammy Hagar " FORD

            Comment

            • Nickdfresh
              SUPER MODERATOR

              • Oct 2004
              • 49567

              #7
              Originally posted by Redballjets88
              yeah we could have invaded but armor wouldnt have helped considering 80% of japan is mountainous and the 20% that isnt is highly populated urban areas
              Really, where did you get that. Actually 50% of the Japan is mountainous/forested. But most of the population is settled on inland plains. The TOKYO plain would have been rolled up rather quickly. JAPAN was on the verge of industrial collapse and was running out of ammo (they could only equip about half of their divisions). Any mountain strongholds would have been sealed off with the defenders starving.

              Most historians now think we would have suffered heavy initial casualties at the first landings (Operation Olympus) in the southern islands in the fall of 1945. But the Japanese may just as easily surrendered quickly for fear of SOVIET occupation. Nobody thinks the initial casualty estimates are correct. In any case, we would have rolled over them with tanks and artillery once the beachheads were secure. The strong Japanese defenses are useless if they get bypassed in a blitzkrieg assault.

              Comment

              • kentuckyklira
                Veteran
                • Sep 2004
                • 1776

                #8
                Quite a few reliable sources state that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were only bombed to test the effects of a-bombs in a real life situation. That´s why the állies refused the Japanese conditions of surrender. After all, once Japan was occupied what difference would the status of Japan´s emperor make? And don´t forget, the emperor stayed around and his kids and grandchildren are still around and revered by the Japanese population.

                The US needed an excuse to test their bombs on real cities, filled with real civilians. More proof of this is, that one bomb was detonated at ground level and the other a few hundred feet above ground level to test the different effects.

                Again and again, 2 wrongs don´t make a right, and just because the allies won the war doesn´t mean Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren´t atrocious war crimes.
                http://images.zeit.de/gesellschaft/z...ie-540x304.jpg

                Comment

                • BigBadBrian
                  TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 10625

                  #9
                  Originally posted by kentuckyklira


                  Again and again, 2 wrongs don´t make a right, and just because the allies won the war doesn´t mean Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren´t atrocious war crimes.
                  War is war, bitch. Don't start what you can't finish.

                  Too bad the Bomb wasn't ready in time for you Krauts.

                  “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                  Comment

                  • scamper
                    Commando
                    • May 2005
                    • 1073

                    #10
                    The United States didn't start that war, they just finished it, you're welcome.

                    Comment

                    • Seshmeister
                      ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                      • Oct 2003
                      • 35756

                      #11
                      I think it was more about scaring the shit out the Russians and ending the war asap before they reached Japan than anything else.

                      I have a bigger problem with Nagasaki.

                      I find it pretty suspicious that they used a plutoniium bomb rather than the Uranium one, it does smack of testing.

                      Also only giving 4 days for a country to realise what had happened to it before dropping the next one.

                      Could Trueman not have taken a group of Japs to a test instead or at least hit them with an ultimatum after Hiroshima and given them time to respond?

                      People always wheel out the argument that they would have fought to the last man but they didn't did they? They didn't wait until 50 bombs had been dropped.

                      I think they were by that point looking for an excuse to surrender.

                      As with most things this is not a black and white situation.

                      Cheers!

                      Comment

                      • WACF
                        Crazy Ass Mofo
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 2920

                        #12
                        Right on the money...good post Sesh.

                        Comment

                        • BigBadBrian
                          TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 10625

                          #13
                          Originally posted by WACF
                          Right on the money...good post Sesh.
                          You're drinking the same Kool-Aid as he is.

                          “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                          Comment

                          • Redballjets88
                            Full Member Status

                            • Mar 2005
                            • 4469

                            #14
                            klira you call dresden nagasaki and hiroshima horrible lets talk aushwitz dumbass quit being a sore loser
                            R.I.P Van Halen 1978-1984

                            hopefully God will ressurect you

                            "i wont be messing with you in future.the fearsome redballjets88 for fear of you owning me some more" Axl S


                            " I liked Sammy Hagar " FORD

                            Comment

                            • BigBadBrian
                              TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 10625

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Redballjets88
                              quit being a sore loser

                              PRICELESS!!!!!

                              “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                              Comment

                              Working...