Ex-Iraqi PM ALLAWI (Our Choice) Says Abuse As Bad as SADDAM's Era

[Nickdfresh]

Ex-PM: Abuse as bad as Saddam era

Sunday, November 27, 2005; Posted: 9:24 a.m. EST (14:24 GMT)

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WORLD/meast/11/27/iraq.allawi/story.allawi.jpg
Allawi: "These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam."

LONDON, England -- Human rights abuses in Iraq are as bad as they were under Saddam Hussein if not worse, former Prime Minister Ayad Allawi has said.

"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam's time and worse," Allawi said in an interview published in Britain on Sunday.

"It is an appropriate comparison," Allawi told The Observer newspaper. "People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things."

Allawi's comments come as Hussein's trial is set to resume Monday in Baghdad. Hussein's lawyers are expected to seek another delay in the proceedings. (Full story)

The remarks also follow the discovery of an Iraqi government facility holding 170 prisoners, including some showing signs of torture. (Full story)

"We are hearing about secret police, secret bunkers where people are being interrogated," said Allawi, who was Iraq's first prime minister of the post-Saddam Hussein era.

Allawi, a secular Shiite and former Baathist, is standing in parliamentary elections scheduled for December 15. He failed to win January's election, which brought current Prime Minister Ibrahim Jaafari, an Islamist Shiite, to power.

"A lot of Iraqis are being tortured or killed in the course of interrogations," Allawi said. "We are even witnessing Sharia courts based on Islamic law that are trying people and executing them.

"The Ministry of the Interior is at the heart of the matter," Allawi said. "I am not blaming the minister himself, but the rank and file are behind the secret dungeons and some of the executions that are taking place."

Allawi warned that if no action was taken, "the disease infecting (the ministry) will become contagious and spread to all ministries and structures of Iraq's government."

In a news conference this month, Interior Minister Bayan Jabr defended the prison facility, saying it held "the most criminal terrorists" and that "nobody was beheaded or killed."

Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/27/iraq.allawi/index.html)

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh

"People are doing the same as (in) Saddam's time and worse," Allawi said in an interview published in Britain on Sunday.
Worse actually!

I guess that´s what the USA stands for today. After all, it´s still a success according to Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[Big Train]

Well, let's think about this for a second. The same people who were in Saddam's army are now in this army.

Everyone bitched and moaned when we originally excluded them from power, so they were let in. That they are going back to business as usual isn't suprising. It's the action that is taken by the new Iraqui government that will define things in the future. Will these people be dealt with or allowed to continue. The US can't answer that.

And no douche, that is NOT what the US stands for. It's like saying your country is all for standing around and waffling.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Big Train


And no douche, that is NOT what the US stands for. It's like saying your country is all for standing around and waffling.

Well, a majority voted them back into office although it was easy to see what a bunch of crooks they are. So a majority of your population is responsible for what´s going on. And the lack of major outcry in the USA just adds clout to my argument!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Well, let's think about this for a second. The same people who were in Saddam's army are now in this army.

No. No, for the most part you're wrong. The greater part of SADDAM's military and intelligence apparatus is part of the "Insurgency." Most of these SHIA people were common enlisted, if they were allowed in the active Army at all...

Besides, most of SADDAM's oppression was from his secret police, not the Army. We can't sit here and blame this shit on SADDAM anymore...


Everyone bitched and moaned when we originally excluded them from power, so they were let in.

How can they have been excluded from power if they were members of the former army?


That they are going back to business as usual isn't suprising. It's the action that is taken by the new Iraqui government that will define things in the future. Will these people be dealt with or allowed to continue. The US can't answer that.

And no douche, that is NOT what the US stands for. It's like saying your country is all for standing around and waffling.

What do we stand for anymore? Abu Ghraib? Secret prisons? Holding people without trial indefinitely while not affording them POW status at the same time? Legally torturing and murdering people in custody? The actions of this administration have shown what they stand for...Denial of reality, and keeping people in-line through fear either as "protectors" or as punishers...

[LoungeMachine]

Meet the new Boss, Same as the old Boss

It was a self-fullfilling prophesy. We invaded a country which posed no threat to us to rid it of WMDS and Terrorists, only to have it 3 years after the fact now being a hotbed of chemical weapons, torture, and terrorists.

Mission Accomplished.

Freedom's on the march, and we've got the dog leashes to prove it.


Now watch as the Rove/Cheney smear machine will make Allawi out to be an American bashing idiot with no credentials with which to speak.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Well, a majority voted them back into office although it was easy to see what a bunch of crooks they are. So a majority of your population is responsible for what´s going on. And the lack of major outcry in the USA just adds clout to my argument!


There IS OUTCRY! Only one-third of the US approves of BUSH's Iraq policies...

And the US is beginning an undercover withdrawl from Iraq in couple of weeks...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


What do we stand for anymore? Abu Ghraib? Secret prisons? Holding people without trial indefinitely while not affording them POW status at the same time? Legally torturing and murdering people in custody? The actions of this administration have shown what they stand for...Denial of reality, and keeping people in line through fear either as "protectors" or as punishers...

Brilliant Nick :cool:


Just what are the American Values we are showing the world these last 5 years?


Can you actually say here with a straight face BT that what we did, how we did it, and where we are now is the way America and Americans want the world to view us?

This has been a giant clusterfuck of lies, denial, and bullshit from day one.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
There IS OUTCRY! Only one-third of the US approves of BUSH's Iraq policies...

I´ll believe this outcry isn´t just the same old people shouting a bit louder than before should the Dems do well in next year´s elections.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No. No, for the most part you're wrong. The greater part of SADDAM's military and intelligence apparatus is part of the "Insurgency." Most of these SHIA people were common enlisted, if they were allowed in the active Army at all...

Besides, most of SADDAM's oppression was from his secret police, not the Army. We can't sit here and blame this shit on SADDAM anymore...

How can they have been excluded from power if they were members of the former army?

What do we stand for anymore? Abu Ghraib? Secret prisons? Holding people without trial indefinitely while not affording them POW status at the same time? Legally torturing and murdering people in custody? The actions of this administration have shown what they stand for...Denial of reality, and keeping people in-line through fear either as "protectors" or as punishers...

How am I wrong? "for the most part", hello, how many does it take, 5-10, 30 guys to do torturing. Do you have an accurate number on how many "changed sides", falsified paperwork or whatever to become Iraqui police? That's right, you don't. Additionally, these "police" are still in their muslim culture, which obviously allows this stuff.

How were they excluded? You
didn't see all the news and protests regarding this. You know, Bremer's big mistake?

Abu Ghirab was an anamoly and you know it, don't claim it as an American value. It's all murky and nebulous and you claiming you know the truth here any more than I or anyone else does is bullshit. Some bad things have happened, but it is retarded to say what any of this says about American people.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


Abu Ghirab was an anamoly and you know it, don't claim it as an American value. It's all murky and nebulous and you claiming you know the truth here any more than I or anyone else does is bullshit. Some bad things have happened, but it is retarded to say what any of this says about American people.

An anamoly? :rolleyes:

Guess you haven't heard of Gitmo, or the secret eastern european prisons, or us sending prisoners to Egypt for torture.

Retarded to say the last 3 years doesn't say things about America?

Are you kidding me?



"Some bad things have happened"

That's right up there with "Well Mrs. Lincoln, other than that, what did you think of the play?"


This thing has been clusterfucked from the start, and instead of correcting mistakes, we've just "stayed the course" and made things worse than ever before.

Unbelievable:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
How am I wrong?

We don't have that kind of time or bandwidth ;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


. It's all murky and nebulous and you claiming you know the truth here any more than I or anyone else does is bullshit. .

True.

But you will admit ALLAWI sure as FUCK knows the truth.

And he's saying things are worse than under Sadaam.

Game, set, match.

:cool:

[Big Train]

Game set match? C,mon Lounge...TRY..:)

All this shit, outside of Abu Ghirab is alleged. Let's not claim fact just yet.

Allawai knows everything? A guy we chose not to back, I'm supposed to take him as the gospel? Please...

If you are so worried about the "course" of things, where the fuck is your party? They are sitting with their thumbs up their ass like always.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


If you are so worried about the "course" of things, where the fuck is your party? They are sitting with their thumbs up their ass like always.

:rolleyes:

Open a newspaper. Turn on CSpan

Have you NOT been paying attention these past 2 weeks?

Sitting on their thumbs:rolleyes:

I hate even getting into these scraps with you kool-aid drinking cons.

Blame the Dems. They're not doing anything. They don't support the troops. Why do they hate America so much

give me a fucking break with that weak ass Rush bullshit

[Big Train]

YES Lounge what are they doing? What IS their plan. It isn't Rush bullshit to ask that. All I heard was a half ass withdrawal plan. I have NOTHING for months in between.

Why the fuck am I a con? Cuz you can't actually hear what I'm saying. Look up the Murtha thread, where I am being such a con criticing my own party intensely. What happened on the Congressional floor pissed me off.

There are two parties in Washington and the "other" one could be using this as a watershed moment to show America the way and regain power. Everyone keeps saying the Republicans are ripe for takeover. That however, doesn't warrant that it will be the Dems who do. It takes action and foresight, which I see none of from the Dems.

I'll go back to drinking my Kool-Aid now...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
YES Lounge what are they doing? What IS their plan. It isn't Rush bullshit to ask that. All I heard was a half ass withdrawal plan. I have NOTHING for months in between.

Why the fuck am I a con? Cuz you can't actually hear what I'm saying. Look up the Murtha thread, where I am being such a con criticing my own party intensely. What happened on the Congressional floor pissed me off.

There are two parties in Washington and the "other" one could be using this as a watershed moment to show America the way and regain power. Everyone keeps saying the Republicans are ripe for takeover. That however, doesn't warrant that it will be the Dems who do. It takes action and foresight, which I see none of from the Dems.

I'll go back to drinking my Kool-Aid now...

:D

I agree w/ 98% of this post.

I confess I haven't read your take in the Murtha thread, and will do so.

I was rash and frustrated to lump you in with the rest of the sheep in here. My bad.

I wish there was a viable third party alternative..........

Try the kiwi-strawberry flavor, I hear it's kickin' fresh ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
How am I wrong? "for the most part", hello, how many does it take, 5-10, 30 guys to do torturing. Do you have an accurate number on how many "changed sides", falsified paperwork or whatever to become Iraqui police? That's right, you don't. Additionally, these "police" are still in their muslim culture, which obviously allows this stuff.

How were they excluded? You
didn't see all the news and protests regarding this. You know, Bremer's big mistake?

The IRAQI police are "supplemented" by Islamic Militias that are heavily rumored to be supported by IRAN. And there seems to be an increasing diffusion between the security forces, and the Militias such as the Badr Brigades. And it is also a fact that significant death squad activity is taking place in IRAQ that originates from the new US trained IRAQ Army, police, and the militias...

Here's a question regarding "death squads," how long was SADDAM in control of El SALVADOR? The death squad capital of the world...

I really don't feel like getting into the particulars of a uniquely AMERICAN counter-insurgency strategy called the "OPLAN (Operation) PHOENIX" that was invented during VIETNAM by "Liberal DEMOCRAT" and ex-CIA director William COLBY, but usually in the hands of third world, uneducated and inhumane idiots, a deviously effective anti-guerilla strategy turns into little more than a wanton orgy of murder and extra-judicial killing.

That's what is happening in IRAQ I believe...


Abu Ghirab was an anamoly and you know it, don't claim it as an American value. It's all murky and nebulous and you claiming you know the truth here any more than I or anyone else does is bullshit. Some bad things have happened, but it is retarded to say what any of this says about American people. [/B]

No! Abu GHRAIB was systematic and symbolic of two things:

One, at the very least, it showed poor planning and the complete disinterest of the RUMSFELD Pentagon clique regarding the War in IRAQ, and their disregard of the undermanned American troops forced to guard thousands of Iraqi prisoners.

Two, it may have been the result of a secret US plan called "Copper GREEN," again, a counter-terrorist interrogation strategy designed to be used against the most hard core, high ranking terrorists was criminally used against regular people, many of whom had been picked up on non-terrorist or guerilla related offenses...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Ex-PM: Abuse as bad as Saddam era



God, will this guy ever quit whining?