Christmas Under Attack: A Manufactured Crisis

[ELVIS]

by Bill Berkowitz (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Nov05/Berkowitz1128.htm)

November 28, 2005

http://www.spudart.org/blog/images/2003/207-0773_IMG_400.jpg

Conservative Christian fundamentalists, right wing Christian legal groups, and most of the Fox News Channel's prime time crew are echoing variations on the same theme: liberals are once again out to destroy Christmas. Instead of the ancient cry that "Jews killed Christ," fundamentalist Christians and their conservative allies are accusing liberals -- which in those circles is often read, Jews -- for trying to remove Christmas from the public square.

Last year the Rev. Jerry Falwell claimed "secularists" "hate Christ" and want to "steal Christmas from America." This holiday season, Falwell's Lynchburg, VA.-based Thomas Road Baptist Church has joined forces with a Christian legal outfit, Liberty Counsel, for its "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign."

Fox News Channel's Bill O'Reilly -- under fire for recent explosive comments seemingly condoning the destruction of Coit Tower, San Francisco's monument to heroic firefighters, argued on his program that viewers should shun stores that are "anti-Christmas."

William Donahue's New York-based Catholic League for Religious and Civic Rights launched a fevered, and short-lived, boycott of Wal-Mart when the stores' website recognized the terms Hanukkah and Kwanzaa, yet turned the words Christmas season into holiday season. Wal-Mart apologized for the mishap.

The Scottsdale, Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a Christian legal group, announced that 800 attorneys agreed to voluntarily handle without fee complaints about "improper attempts to censor the celebration of Christmas in schools and on public property," the Seattle Post-Intelligencer recently reported. "In 2004, the second year of its 'Christmas Project,' affiliated attorneys sent a detailed memo on ADF's view of Christmas and constitutional law to 7,000 school districts," the newspaper pointed out.

John Gibson, the host of Fox News Channel's "The Big Story," has penned a new book called The War on Christmas (Sentinel, October 2005), which is devoted to the controversy.

Falwell's Christmas play

To paraphrase essayist Jon Mooallen, "The most demoralizing form of violence that could visit a Christian right leader such as the Rev. Jerry Falwell is the violence of not being noticed." While nowhere near being the preeminent fundamentalist figure he was during the halcyon days of the Moral Majority more than a decade ago, nevertheless, Falwell can still command media attention. Moreover, unlike the Rev. Pat Robertson, whose awkward commentaries have become so common that they have become boring, Falwell picks his targets a bit more carefully.

These days he has latched onto a doozy of a controversy: In a recent edition of Falwell Confidential, the online "insider weekly newsletter to The Moral Majority and The Liberty Alliance," he maintained that Christmas is under attack. Christians, Falwell advised, should, "draw a line in the sand and resist bullying tactics by the American Civil Liberties Union, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, the American Atheists and other leftist organizations that intimidate school and government officials by spreading misinformation about Christmas."

"Celebrating Christmas," Falwell declared, "is constitutional!"

(Coincidentally, the organizations Falwell points out as responsible for attacking Christmas are several of the same groups he blamed for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. He later issued a rather understated apology.)

Targeting left-wing Grinches trying to drive Christmas out of the public square, Falwell wrote, "In many public venues, and in our schools and workplaces, many Americans have discovered that they are not permitted to erect Christmas decorations, exchange Christmas cards or sing Christmas carols."

To combat the Christmas bashers, Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church -- the church he has pastured for almost 50 years -- is sponsoring local newspaper ads promoting its save Christmas campaign. The genesis of the campaign is rooted in last year's effort that included a pro-Christmas advertising campaign organized by Dr. Jerry Prevo, pastor of the Anchorage Baptist Temple, Alaska's largest church. Dr. Prevo, chairman of Falwell's Liberty University Board of Trustees, "thought the ads were necessary in this age of political correctness that has convinced many of our fellow Americans that Christmas is a dirty word," Falwell wrote.

Dr. Prevo worked closely with the Orlando-based Liberty Counsel to formulate the language of the ads, which are part of Liberty Counsel's "Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign". Liberty Counsel describes itself as "a nonprofit litigation, education and policy organization dedicated to advancing religious freedom, the sanctity of human life and the traditional family." The "Friend or Foe..." campaign aims to prevent blatant religious discrimination during the Christmas holidays.

In 2003, the Liberty Counsel organized a campaign called "Don't Let The 'Grinch' [read: liberals] Steal This Christmas." Mathew D. Staver, Liberty Counsel's President and General Counsel, laid out his rationale for that campaign:

Our country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. If we separate these fundamental principles from our civic life, we destroy our government in the process. Our Founding Fathers believed that religion and morality were necessary to our success as a nation. President Washington once said that anyone who would attempt to remove religion and morality from our country cannot be considered a true patriot. He also predicted a rising national immorality if we exclude religious principles.

In mid-December 2004 on Fox News, the Liberty Counsel's Staver claimed that a former Florida mayor was hostile to Christianity because he was "apparently Jewish."

Fox on board

On the Fox News Channel, ranting about liberals out to destroy Christmas is as ubiquitous and inaccurate as the station's "fair and balanced" credo. Last year, according to Media Matters for America, "In a 'Talking Points Memo' devoted to "[h]ow Martin Luther King would view things today,'" O'Reilly said that King "would be appalled by the secular culture" and by "the attacks on Christmas, the demonizing of Christianity."

In addition to plugging Gibson's book, Fox's Bill O'Reilly recently ranted about the anti-Christmas practices of two major retailers, Sears/K-Mart and Kohl's. On his November 9 2005 broadcast, O'Reilly told his audience:

Here's what we found out: Sears/Kmart would not answer our questions. Spokesman Chris Braithwaite simply ducked the issue. Their website banners: "Wish Book Holiday 2005." They were the worst we had to deal with. OK? Sears/Kmart. JCPenney says its catalog is always called "Christmas catalog." Federated Department Stores -- Macy's, Bloomingdale's, Burdines -- says the words "Merry Christmas" will be used in most advertising. Same thing at May, Filene's, Lord & Taylor, and Marshall Field's. But Kohl's refused to define how the company will deal with Christmas. Dillard's, however, will use the slogan "Discover Christmas, Discover Dillard's." So there you go. Shop where you like the atmosphere. Just remember, Kohl's and Sears/Kmart, basically, not all right.

John Gibson, who claims he is a "non-practicing Christian," recently said that, "his Jewish son researched the book," the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reported. Gibson maintained that those leading the fight against Christmas are primarily "secularists, so-called humanists, trial lawyers, cultural relativists and liberal, guilt-wracked Christians."

And Sean Hannity, co-host of Fox's "Hannity and Colmes" program weaved the Christmas controversy into a recent segment discussing the nomination of Judge Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. According to the News Hounds website -- "We watch FOX so you don't have to" -- Hannity introduced the segment on Alito by saying that his "most controversial decision may have [involved] ... the defense of Christmas." Hannity pointed out that Judge Alito "appl[ied] the law" and upheld "common sense" by allowing Jersey City, New Jersey to put up a Christmas display.

The "liberals are messing with Christmas" mantra was the focus of last year's winter fundraising drive by RightMarch.com. The group sent out an "e-alert" that contained a laundry list of examples of how Christmas had been attacked during 2004. RightMarch.com is a group headed by the relatively unknown William Greene, who Campaign & Elections magazine called one of its "Rising Stars of Politics" in 2002, and the Rev. Sun Myung Moon-owned Washington Times dubbed a "conservative Internet guru."

Greene, who earned his chops while working with the king of direct mail, Richard Viguerie, was aiming "to STOP groups like the ACLU from removing all mentions of Christmas from the public square!"

The centerpiece of the RightMarch campaign was a radio ad that RightMarch.com claimed had aired on more than 200 radio stations around the country and reached over two million people. The message was a simple "stand up and DEFEND Christmas." In addition to the radio spots, RightMarch.com placed full-page newspaper ads in several national publications and organized an extensive Internet ad campaign.

This year, Falwell's Thomas Road Baptist Church advertisements provide information about "free legal assistance by Liberty Counsel to individuals facing persecution for celebrating Christmas." Liberty Counsel is also providing participants with a free "educational legal memo", containing "a pledge to be a 'Friend' to those entities which do not discriminate against Christmas and a 'Foe' to those that do."

A fundraising scheme?

Over the years, the American Civil Liberties Union has fought religious-themed displays on public property. According to the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, "an official ACLU bulletin says the Constitution forbids school observances 'that promote or emphasize the religious significance' of Christmas, but not aspects 'that have become part of our country's secular culture.'"

The ACLU and Americans United for Separation of Church and State, and evangelical groups have agreed "on minimal rules about school religious issues." On holidays, the accord says schools may celebrate secular aspects and "objectively teach about their religious aspects" but not observe them as religious events.

Americans United believes "public schools aren't the appropriate place to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. That's a job for the home and the church," Americans United's spokesperson Rob Boston told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. The Supreme Court's ruling that towns' Nativity displays must add secular symbols proves that if people "want a truly religious experience, city hall is not the place," Boston added.

Michael Johnson of Shreveport, La., an ADF staff lawyer, told the newspaper that his organization wants to "defend the rights of the 96 percent of Americans who celebrate Christmas." He believes the ACLU's goal is "ultimately to silence people of faith, and in many cases people of the Christian faith."

While it is impossible to get a handle on how much money these holiday season campaigns raise, it sure beats the heck out of your annual run-of-the-mill end-of-year fundraising appeal.

"About 95 percent of the whining from the far right" has more to do with fundraising than Christmas, Boston pointed out. "They're trying to get people worked up so they will think Christmas is being removed from public life. There isn't any evidence that's happening."

Bill Berkowitz is a longtime observer of the conservative movement. His WorkingForChange.com column Conservative Watch documents the strategies, players, institutions, victories and defeats of the American Right. Thanks to Laura Ross for her research assistance.


:elvis:

[LoungeMachine]

Falwell and O'Reilly ?


Fleas Navidad

[pete]

http://www.spudart.org/blog/images/2003/207-0773_IMG_400.jpg

BLACK SABBATH
Greatest Hits

[FORD]

The real problem is not that liberals want to hijack Christmas. It's that right wingers have hijacked Christ.

[Nitro Express]

Stories like this is nothing more than the media trying to cash in on some contriversy between two extremist groups.

Most people love Christmas trees. I even know a Jewish family that puts one up but of course they are in the retail business and everyone who makes their living that way loves Christmas.

Decorating a tree began as a pagan tradition and was later adapted to celebrate Christ's birthday. Christ was probably born in the spring but Emporer Constantine the founder of the Roman Catholic Church chose December 25th for the celebration because it was the day of the Roman Sun God celebration.

If anything, Dec. 25 was a pagan celebration to begin with. Why not call it Christmas? It's what most of us know, grew up with, and like.

If we let the liberal and conservative wackos dictate everything, it will just suck the fun out of everything we try and do. Them fuckers think to much. It's a fucking holiday, get drunk, do some nice charitable thing, get laid, and eat like a pig. Most of all, have some fucking fun for Christ sakes!

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
It's that right wingers have hijacked Christ.

Let me guess...

By being against homosexuality ??

By being against gay marriage ??

By being for intelligent design ??

By being pro-life ??

By being against abortion ??

By wanting to protect society ??

By promoting family values ??

By promoting abstanance among youth ??

By encouraging morality ??

By keeping drugs illegal ??

By being against socialization ??

By promoting gun rights ??


I could go on, but you get the idea...



:elvis:

[Cathedral]

Hey, I'll say Merry Christmas to anyone i please, nothing can stop me there and they don't have to say it back.
If your offended by that, you need therapy or a suicide note because you won't last much longer in this society if that is what offends you.

The thing is that it is just a little part of a bigger issue and i am glad some people are taking a stand against those who are working their gonads off to create a lawless society where nobody is accountable for anything from pedophile priests to rapists and murderers.

You can come and join me and my family for some good old fashioned Christmas Cheer if the rest of the world shuns you for it, my door is always open to "true" Christians.

People can try all they want, but they will not put a damper on my Christmas Spirit, not gonna happen.

My daughter prays at school because i pay for a Christ Centered Education for her, and they go pleasantly crazy at Christmas time in celebration of the birth of christ. decorations in a store and what they label things don't mean squat to me because i provide the culture i want for me and my family myself.

I place it all in God's hands because where we are powerless to stop society from their evil deeds, God will prevail in the end and we'll be blessed regardless as long as we are obedient to the Lord.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Let me guess...

By being against homosexuality ??

By being against gay marriage ??

By being for intelligent design ??

By being pro-life ??

By being against abortion ??

By wanting to protect society ??

By promoting family values ??

By promoting abstanance among youth ??

By encouraging morality ??

By keeping drugs illegal ??

By being against socialization ??

By promoting gun rights ??


I could go on, but you get the idea...



:elvis:

Touche'

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral

My daughter prays at school because i pay for a Christ Centered Education for her.


Amen brother...

If only more parents could or would be so wise...


:elvis:

[Cathedral]

Well, if vouchers were distributed more people could choose where their kids get educated and would have help funding it.
But that is seen as an attack on the public system and gets shot down every time.
To me it would send a wake up call to the public school system to clean up its act, or else.
It's well worth it for me to keep her where she is. her grades are better and i have had zero politics to deal with since she's been there, 4 years now.

I've seen the difference between her school and the public system, and that difference is that one is blessed and the other is a ceastpool of everything i cannot stand nor want my child subject to.

[ELVIS]

Like learning to put a condom on a cucumber ??

[MERRYKISSMASS2U]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Falwell and O'Reilly ?


Fleas Navidad

Feliz Navidad! Donde aprediste el espanol!?!? Cinco estrellas para ti!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Like learning to put a condom on a cucumber ??

Among many other things, but you get the point.

Remove God from anything and Evil will take its place every time.

[FORD]

Yeah, let's just destroy the public school system entirely, and give all the money to right wing dominonist churches so that ALL future generations can be brainwashed fascists.

That's a great idea :rolleyes:

[MERRYKISSMASS2U]

<img src="http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5640/jccam2cx.png"></img>
end of discussion.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
so that ALL future generations can be brainwashed fascists.




Yeah, you're a Christian...:rolleyes:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah, you're a Christian...:rolleyes:


Fine. Let's have Dominionist schools then. How about we let "The GOD WARRIOR" (http://www.2dorks.com/video/tradingspouses.wmv) teach your children.

I don't believe any religion should be in charge of schools. I also don't believe in home schooling, unless the parents are teachers by profession, whiich means there is probably very little chance they would have time for home schooling.

Parents have every right to teach religion to their kids after school, or on Sunday, or whenvever. But Mon - Fri 6 hours a day, the kids should actually learn something about THIS world.

[ELVIS]

If you're implying that that crazy woman from an episode of a reality show is anything representative of an american Christian, you're a FOOL!

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
If you're implying that that crazy woman from an episode of a reality show is anything representative of an american Christian, you're a FOOL!

I would certianly hope she wasn't. Hell, it's bad enough you have to live in the same state with her.

But James Dobson, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell are just as crazy as she is, and yet you would turn public schools over to the likes of them?

[ELVIS]

No, I would not...

And, no, they're not crazy like that woman...

Hahaha...:D

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No, I would not...

And, no, they're not crazy like that woman...

Hahaha...:D

Jerry Falwell blamed homosexuals for 9-11-01.

Pat Robertson calls for assassinations of foreign heads of state and claims that God will "abandon" cities that don't put Unchristian Coaliton candidates on their school board.

James Dobson believes you have to beat your wife, your kids, and your dog in order to be the "master of your domain"

I don't think any of them qualify as SANE.

[ELVIS]

I don't know much about any of them...

I don't know one thing about james Dobson...

I've heard both Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell on Sean Hannity and they both have had good things to say...

And don't get any funny ideas, I'm not a Sean Hannity fan...

Compaired to Ed Schultz though, he's a genious...

LMAO!


:dork:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Jerry Falwell blamed homosexuals for 9-11-01.



You're making quite a stretch there, unkind sir...


The Truth (http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/f/falwell-robertson-wtc.htm)

According to the CBN website, the Interview took place on Thursday, September 13 (Some versions of the eRumor say it was Wednesday).

Both men spoke harshly of the terrorists and clearly blamed them for the attacks.

During a discussion about whether this crisis might bring revival to America, Jerry Falwell said God may have allowed what the nation deserved because of moral decay and said Americans should have an attitude of repentance before God and asking for God's protection. He specifically listed the ACLU, abortionists, feminists, gays, and the People For the American way as sharing in the blame. Pat Robertson responded with agreement.

APOLOGY
The was national publicity over the Robertson-Falwell interview and strong reaction from representatives of some of the groups that Falwell named.

On 9/14/01, Falwell issued an apology for his comments and said he believes that the terrorists alone were responsible for the attacks. He reiterated, however, that theologically he believes that groups that have worked to secularize America have helped remove the nation from its spiritual foundations.

Pat Robertson, on his website, distanced himself from the comments that he had agreed with at the time they were made. He said that during the interview, Falwell suddenly made a "...political statement of blame directed at certain segments of the population that was severe and harsh in tone, and, frankly, not fully understood by the three hosts of The 700 Club who were watching Rev. Falwell on a monitor." Robertson said he considered the comments "totally inappropriate" and that critics had taken the words out of context.


I don't disagree with that...



:elvis:

[floyd95]

any republican who claims to be pro life is a fucking liar

death penalty, wars started for no fucking reason, ignoring the needs of the people in this very country like when natural disasters happen

culture of life, what a crock of bullshit

[floyd95]

bush is a fake fucking christian

he worships the almight dollar

pushes hot button issues like gay marriage to distract the public from his administrations corruption

who gives a shit about gay marriage, sanctity of marriage, right, on fox, upn or wb you can marry a midget, freak, millionare, or farm animal

[ELVIS]

Is your illiteracy something you learned in school ??

[floyd95]

you can learn illiteracy?

[ELVIS]

You tell me...:)

[floyd95]

yeah, i guess you can...

[ELVIS]

These two are probably well informed literate voters...

http://www.liberaltest.com/why_kerry_lost/kerry_protest_supporter_voters_3.jpg


:elvis:

[floyd95]

lesbians against bush

[ELVIS]

Wouldn't that be an oxymoron ??

[ELVIS]

We think so...

http://www.tonyrogers.com/humor/images/2004_0707_johnjohn.jpg


:elvis:

[Millermoos]

Feliz Navidad! Donde aprediste el espanol!?!? Cinco estrellas para ti.

Do you speak Spanish? I am trying to learn...
Feliz Navidad does it mean Happy Christmas in Spanish or just Happy Festivities?
Millermoos

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos

Do you speak Spanish? I am trying to learn...

Well go to learnspanish.com and leave us alone...
Feliz Navidad does it mean Happy Christmas in Spanish or just Happy Festivities?

Who cares ??


Millermoos


What does millermoos mean, anyway ??

Is your last name Miller, and you moo like a cow ??


:elvis:

[diamondD]

Originally posted by FORD
Jerry Falwell blamed homosexuals for 9-11-01.

Pat Robertson calls for assassinations of foreign heads of state and claims that God will "abandon" cities that don't put Unchristian Coaliton candidates on their school board.

James Dobson believes you have to beat your wife, your kids, and your dog in order to be the "master of your domain"

I don't think any of them qualify as SANE.

But none of them publicly claim the BCE is hacking their computer. ;)


I'm sick of Christmas being replaced with "Happy Holidays" If it wasn't for Christmas, a lot of businesses wouldn't turn a profit.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
Yeah, let's just destroy the public school system entirely, and give all the money to right wing dominonist churches so that ALL future generations can be brainwashed fascists.

That's a great idea :rolleyes:

Here's another attempt to skew reality.
I don't promote the destruction of the public school sytem, even if it does rob the believer of their right to pray or ackowledge Christ as the savior.
Have you taken a walk through the halls of a public school lately, Ford?

Of course not, you aren't a parent so why would you?
It isn't the atmosphere anyone, christian or not, would want their children exposed to. Liberal values are promoted in the halls of public schools, political bias is taught in public schools, acceptance of any and all things is taught in public schools.
I, as a parent, do not agree with those principles and do not approve of my child being "programmed" with values i do not promote, so I pay for her to attend a school that resembles what public schools were when I was a kid.
I don't send my child to school to learn about "The world" anyway, I send her to school to get an education, you know, reading, writing, and arithmetic...NOT the current social fads that have nothing to do with education, and THAT is what the public school system is all about in todays society.

I do however promote people having the right to choose the atmosphere in which their children learn.
As it stands, private schools are only for the elite, or for those simpler minds, those who can afford it.

But beyond that, you have no clue what Christ Centered Learning is.
It isn't about church or teaching kids about Christ, it is about ackowledging Christ in everything they do and learning, plain and simple, learning.
Your comments prove to me 110% that you believe what you were told and it isn't even close to reality.
I agree with your views of the right wing fascists and i even agree with most you put on your list as such, but you are lumping everyone in the same pile with those who aren't true christians who actually DO live by Christ teachings, and that isn't fair, bro.

You have it backwards, the school my daughter goes to doesn't brainwash kids, they just allow them to keep their faith where it belongs, close to their heart while they learn.
The brainwashing happens in the public system where anything and everything goes BUT God, get it?

At CCS they have a total of 730 kids from grades K to 12, and every parent, including myself, is involved in some way in the schools operations...how many parents in the public system even set foot in their kids school except for when they are in trouble or called in for a conference? not many my friend, and again, you'd know this if you were a parent.
Parental participation is a requirement NOT an option.
Discipline is something that is extremely rare at CCS, not so in public schools as you can find a line out the door of the Principle's office on a daily basis.
At CCS the kids reach out to one another to help and support each other in every aspect of learning, not so in a public school, it's more about ridicule and laughing at those who are different, bullying, and social circles that in most cases are submerged into things that have nothing to do with learning.
My daughter knows about "This World" from me, the father, and i've lived it from all sides, brother, believe that.
My oldest girl, God rest her soul, turned out fine and was very independant. she was armed with what she needed to avoid peer pressure and made up her own mind in all cases. she knew right from wrong and was more apt to keep her friends from doing something stupid as opposed to following along...I'm proud of that, and i'm on course with Tara as well.

The bottom line is that kids should be getting educated in school, not socially conditioned.
If a parent does their job AT HOME, their kids would leave the home at age 18 with a firm sense of responsibility and be accountable for their actions in all phases of life.
I personally have never sheltered my kids from reality, and that is where a lot of parents make their mistake because the draw of society leads them to experiment with what they are not familiar with.
It's a common problem with many parents and that mistake is made in the first 6 years of their childrens lives.
The effects of that lack of direction will stay with them well into adulthood if not their entire lives.

When or if you have a child of your own, the moment you hold that child in your arms you will take an immediate assessment of yourself and buddy, you'll take that child home with a complete different set of priorities for their future as well as your own. if not, then chances are you'll fail them because you'll rely on a public school system to teach them their values when they should have come from you, at home.

Public Schools are under attack and at risk of being destroyed, i agree witht that, but the danger comes from itself, and that's where you and a large part of society are wrong on your assessment.
Restore God and let the children pray, set rules and guidlines that protect everyone's freedom of religion and God will return his blessing to those classrooms.
The schools are in control, not any church or what you call right-wing fascists. and so far, from what i see on the news across the country, those public systems are doing a bang up job on their students, give me a break.

Oh, and let me remind you that even though my child doesn't attend a public school, my tax dollars still pay for it...is it fair that i should be paying for something i don't use?
The same goes for any homeowner that doesn't even have children.

Your argument is full of holes and won't hold water, but that's ok, ignorance can be overcome by educating yourself before you reply with such a broad brush painting that which you know little to nothing about.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Like learning to put a condom on a cucumber ??

Well, you're not actually supposed to put it on a cucumber. I hope you figure that out before you bang another hot nurse

[Nickdfresh]

You dolts! AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A SECULAR NATION! Try actually reading about the founding fathers instead of propagating the myth that most of them were avid Christians. Most of them were not! It was based on the principle that European heads of state often manipulated religion for **gasp** political agendas, power, and money; you know, things that Jesus all about...

And by the way, DECEMBER 25th coincides with a huge ROMAN feast day and holiday, coincidence? I think not.;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by MERRYKISSMASS2U
Feliz Navidad! Donde aprediste el espanol!?!? Cinco estrellas para ti!

FLEAS


Falwell and O'Reilly are FLEAS It's a pun you humorless geek:rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Here's another attempt to skew reality.
I don't promote the destruction of the public school sytem, even if it does rob the believer of their right to pray or ackowledge Christ as the savior.
Have you taken a walk through the halls of a public school lately, Ford?

Oh brother...:rolleyes: Yeah, I had a lot of fun in SATAN Worship Class in public school...


Of course not, you aren't a parent so why would you?
It isn't the atmosphere anyone, christian or not, would want their children exposed to. Liberal values are promoted in the halls of public schools, political bias is taught in public schools, acceptance of any and all things is taught in public schools.

You have any specific examples of this CAT, or just generalities? BTW, there is no national "Public School System." It's all regional and state mandated and mostly locally funded, so there is a great deal of uneveness in it all, especially when it comes to $$$$$$ for the kiddies.

I mean, what should be taught in public schools?



I, as a parent, do not agree with those principles and do not approve of my child being "programmed" with values i do not promote, so I pay for her to attend a school that resembles what public schools were when I was a kid.
I don't send my child to school to learn about "The world" anyway, I send her to school to get an education, you know, reading, writing, and arithmetic...NOT the current social fads that have nothing to do with education, and THAT is what the public school system is all about in todays society.

Um, I though learning about the world was education. There are many many failings in education today, believe me, I know...

But a lot of people criticising it always focus on the wrong things. Morality and religion lessons start at home, and in fact the "Golden Rule" is essentially derived from a Judeo-Christian moral code...


I do however promote people having the right to choose the atmosphere in which their children learn.
As it stands, private schools are only for the elite, or for those simpler minds, those who can afford it.

The truth is that most private schools suck. They dramatically underpay teachers and well, you get what you pay for...Their curriculums are for the most part no more dynamic than a good public school.


But beyond that, you have no clue what Christ Centered Learning is.
It isn't about church or teaching kids about Christ, it is about ackowledging Christ in everything they do and learning, plain and simple, learning.
Your comments prove to me 110% that you believe what you were told and it isn't even close to reality.
I agree with your views of the right wing fascists and i even agree with most you put on your list as such, but you are lumping everyone in the same pile with those who aren't true christians who actually DO live by Christ teachings, and that isn't fair, bro.

You have it backwards, the school my daughter goes to doesn't brainwash kids, they just allow them to keep their faith where it belongs, close to their heart while they learn.
The brainwashing happens in the public system where anything and everything goes BUT God, get it?

At CCS they have a total of 730 kids from grades K to 12, and every parent, including myself, is involved in some way in the schools operations...how many parents in the public system even set foot in their kids school except for when they are in trouble or called in for a conference? not many my friend, and again, you'd know this if you were a parent.
Parental participation is a requirement NOT an option.
Discipline is something that is extremely rare at CCS, not so in public schools as you can find a line out the door of the Principle's office on a daily basis.
At CCS the kids reach out to one another to help and support each other in every aspect of learning, not so in a public school, it's more about ridicule and laughing at those who are different, bullying, and social circles that in most cases are submerged into things that have nothing to do with learning.
My daughter knows about "This World" from me, the father, and i've lived it from all sides, brother, believe that.
My oldest girl, God rest her soul, turned out fine and was very independant. she was armed with what she needed to avoid peer pressure and made up her own mind in all cases. she knew right from wrong and was more apt to keep her friends from doing something stupid as opposed to following along...I'm proud of that, and i'm on course with Tara as well.

The bottom line is that kids should be getting educated in school, not socially conditioned.
If a parent does their job AT HOME, their kids would leave the home at age 18 with a firm sense of responsibility and be accountable for their actions in all phases of life.
I personally have never sheltered my kids from reality, and that is where a lot of parents make their mistake because the draw of society leads them to experiment with what they are not familiar with.
It's a common problem with many parents and that mistake is made in the first 6 years of their childrens lives.
The effects of that lack of direction will stay with them well into adulthood if not their entire lives.

When or if you have a child of your own, the moment you hold that child in your arms you will take an immediate assessment of yourself and buddy, you'll take that child home with a complete different set of priorities for their future as well as your own. if not, then chances are you'll fail them because you'll rely on a public school system to teach them their values when they should have come from you, at home.

Public Schools are under attack and at risk of being destroyed, i agree witht that, but the danger comes from itself, and that's where you and a large part of society are wrong on your assessment.
Restore God and let the children pray, set rules and guidlines that protect everyone's freedom of religion and God will return his blessing to those classrooms.
The schools are in control, not any church or what you call right-wing fascists. and so far, from what i see on the news across the country, those public systems are doing a bang up job on their students, give me a break.

Oh, and let me remind you that even though my child doesn't attend a public school, my tax dollars still pay for it...is it fair that i should be paying for something i don't use?
The same goes for any homeowner that doesn't even have children.

Your argument is full of holes and won't hold water, but that's ok, ignorance can be overcome by educating yourself before you reply with such a broad brush painting that which you know little to nothing about.

It's not the public school systems' job to teach "Christ" or religion, and there is no "restoration" of God possible since he/sher never really was in a public school as part of the curriculum. The fact is that their is a lot NOT being taught in public schools and there is a breakdown of respect and standards, but that starts long before a kid goes into a classroom. Oh yeah, money and class have a lot to do with it too.;)

[Cathedral]

Again, Nick, in all your many words you missed every point in my post.
and you call me a Dolt? whatever, dude.
Every law in this nation was directly taken from the bible, you just can't see much resemblance in them today.

This country was founded on biblical principles, just go and read what each state had to say in writing when they accepted the Constitution.
Every one of them except Hawaii and Alaska ackowledged Almighty God as the source of their blessings.

I never said that the authors were all devout Christians either, but the biblical principles were there.
I also never said that schools are responsible for teaching kids about Christ, in fact, I said the exact opposite of that.

You have serious reading comprehension issues, buddy, because you see what isn't there every time.

Go find some more articles to post that don't require you to think for yourself, you're on a roll.

[Cathedral]

By the way, Nick, how many kids do you have?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
By the way, Nick, how many kids do you have?

Utterly bogus point.

Education is not just for breeders, cat, we ALL live and die by the educations our next generation receives.

Having said that, as Nick is a TEACHER, I believe he is MORE than qualified to speak on this.

:cool:

[Nickdfresh]

Ex-teacher actually. I'm pursuing another course precisely because I'm a bit disgusted by it all....

I have too many burned out almost-retired teachers telling me it isn't worth, nor are things as they once were. But my experiences did make me want to vomit often, i.e.:

Teachers that didn't teach ANYTHING!

Kids that were pampered and socially promoted through school by said teachers, so they could fail out of college...

I have to go, but basically if I ever teach full time again, it will be in a community college or something.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Utterly bogus point.

Education is not just for breeders, cat, we ALL live and die by the educations our next generation receives.

Having said that, as Nick is a TEACHER, I believe he is MORE than qualified to speak on this.

:cool:

It can only be bogus if you know what my point was, true?

Geez, you guys hunt in packs or what?
I reply to Ford and Nick responds, then i reply to Nick and you respond.

Anyway, since you are the one calling me on what you think my point was, being bogus, i'll explain what my point was and see who responds to my reply to you...maybe it will be Ford and we'll come full circle, lol.

By asking Nick if he has children I am NOT trying to invalidate his input, I simply want to know if he is speaking from experience or something else, it wasn't a trick question.
But, his being a teacher doesn't make him All Knowing about anything, and i'll tell you why...His assumption of the quality of the education MY child recieves in a Private School is completely wrong.
he doesn't even have it right on what goes on in a Christian School by his last reply.

I've been a parent for 20 years, and i have been in and out of schools during school hours many many times in that period and my youngest is the only of my two kids that has gone to private school.
My oldest always went to Public Schools, and even though i held the same principles with her as i do my baby, she had developed serious issues of acceptance of things I didn't install in her, things i didn't find proper...But she knew the difference and always made the best decisions.
My youngest went to 1st grade in a public school and the entire year was hell for her. she forgot to take her bible out of her school bag on Sunday and got suspended 3 days for even having it in the building, i was pissed but i got over it because i wrongly respected the fact that it was a banned book from the school system, fine, whatever, our mistake i guess.
but then there were death threats and bomb threats and all sorts of disciplinary problems from other kids there, bad home lives where parents just didn't care about their kids or whatever.
I drew the line when she was assaulted on the school bus and scarred on her face for life while the driver did nothing.
The school even tried to defend her actions and didn't even discipline the child who assaulted her, that was it, all this grief in first grade? forget that shit, action was going to be taken now.

Oh yeah, that sat real well with me, so well that i funded Tara's first year in private school with the settlement the school offered for me NOT to press charges against the school and the bus driver.

In the last 4 years she has done superbly in school and guess what, nothing at all like what we had to deal with in the public system, oh, i'm sorry, Nick "Ohio's" public school system, has had to be dealt with.

I don't expect anyone who hasn't been through what we have to understand, but when you start off challenging me by calling me a Dolt for doing what is best for my child, Fuck You, plain and simple, it's un-christian of course, but i'm human and it pissed me off.

So, if i am going to end or continue a discussion with someone I want to know where they stand, from experience or from popular opinion that i can already see is based on ignorance.

[FORD]

Let me tell you about the public school I graduated from....

Now I'm not going to claim it was perfect. Far from it. In fact the district where I went to kindergarten and first grade was far better in many ways - but that's a whole other story.

I would say that half the teachers in my school were professing born again Christians.

The head of the science department, believe it or not. I didn't have him for Biology, but I wouldn't be surprised if he mentioned theories other than Darwinism. Incidentally, "creationism vs evolution" was one of my chosen topics in debate class, and that teacher (not a born again and very likely gay) didn't have a problem with the topic.

One of my math teachers managed to work a reference to Revelations into a story problem. BTW, he was also the county chair of the Republican party.

We had a Bible study group before school hours. Though it obviously couldn't carry an "official endorsement" from the school district, there were teachers involved, and the Principal stopped by to check in.

Oh, and the guy who became the superintendent of the school district a couple years after I graduated? He once told his son that "Christian rock is about as logical as Christian prostitution"

So much for my godless, liberal public education........

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Like learning to put a condom on a cucumber ??

Jesus Christ, what kinda schools did YOU attend????????

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
It can only be bogus if you know what my point was, true?

Geez, you guys hunt in packs or what?
I reply to Ford and Nick responds, then i reply to Nick and you respond.

Anyway, since you are the one calling me on what you think my point was, being bogus, i'll explain what my point was and see who responds to my reply to you...maybe it will be Ford and we'll come full circle, lol.
.

LMMFAO:D

It's called tag-team liberalism. We learned it in public school :cool:


I've been a parent of 3 for 11 years, and I find most of our teachers jaded, apathetic, and feeling put out. And this is one of the nicer public districts in Western Washington.

You have to admit, though, the phrasing of your question to Nick did deem like rhetorical, and that you were to pounce on him O'Reilly style upon his reply.

It's okay, it's your nature;)

[Cathedral]

LMMFAO, agreed, I see your point.

And look, I don't even blame the teachers, I fully understand the frustration by most because it isn't the teachers that run the schools. so in my view they are as much the victim as the children in that system.

I see the reports about those who take their political agendas to the classromm, which is wrong, but those kinds of teachers are few and far between.
I actually respect anyone who decides to take a teaching position because they are pushed up against the wall from the start.

my point is that our school system failed and when it comes to my kids, you don't get a second chance.
I do what is best for them and that's all there is to it.

[Millermoos]

Dear Elvis,
a moo stand not only for the sound of a cow but
MOO is short for MUD object oriented and is a type of MUD text-based virtual reality system, created by Stephen White (aka Ghondahrl aka ghond) in 1990. Examples of MOOs include PythonMOO, LambdaMOO, NowMOO, MediaMOO, and LinguaMOO. MOOs can be programmed using the MOO programming language.

Well go to learnspanish.com and leave us alone...
Who cares!
Ah don't worry I am going to live you alone now...
Millermooos

[Millermoos]

I know some gals like to have virtual names such as Victoria Pie or I don't know Shirley Valentine I prefer Millermoos for myself. Oh I have to remember to live you alone!

[Steve Savicki]

Originally posted by ELVIS
We think so...

http://www.tonyrogers.com/humor/images/2004_0707_johnjohn.jpg


:elvis:
Better those two than <center>http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/U/7/distorted.jpg</center>

[bastardog]

Millermoos
Deja que Elvis se siga pudriendo en el infierno.

...and by the way Feliz Navidad means Merry Christmas
Navidad comes from Natividad that is like born
so it is something like say happy Christ birth celebration.

But for most latino families Christmas (Navidad) begin in December as you do but ends after January 6 (another hollyday)

[FORD]

Originally posted by bastardog


But for most latino families Christmas (Navidad) begin in December as you do but ends after January 6 (another hollyday)

That explains the whole "12 days of Christmas" thing.

I believe that the Greek & Russian Orthodox churches also celebrate Christmas on January 6, though I don't remember what their reasoning for this is.

Remember that Joseph and Mary were on the road to Bethlehem to pay their taxes, so it's far more likely that JC was born in April.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
It can only be bogus if you know what my point was, true?

Geez, you guys hunt in packs or what?
I reply to Ford and Nick responds, then i reply to Nick and you respond.

Anyway, since you are the one calling me on what you think my point was, being bogus, i'll explain what my point was and see who responds to my reply to you...maybe it will be Ford and we'll come full circle, lol.

By asking Nick if he has children I am NOT trying to invalidate his input, I simply want to know if he is speaking from experience or something else, it wasn't a trick question.
But, his being a teacher doesn't make him All Knowing about anything, and i'll tell you why...His assumption of the quality of the education MY child recieves in a Private School is completely wrong.
he doesn't even have it right on what goes on in a Christian School by his last reply.

I'll answer this one 'cause you mentioned me. You are correct that being a teacher does not make one all knowing. This is true. And I said MOST private schools are no better than a WELL FUNDED public school.

BTW, I went to a Catholic school for a few years in elementary, and it was far from the greatest educational experiences I had. I had a hot younger teacher that was cool, but others had old, very negative teachers that would berate her classes. I also felt like I was Math deficient for a couple of years after I returned to the public school system, when I routinely scored in the 80's on math in the parochial school.

There are however some great private schools (and I'm not talking about prep schools for the rich).

But one of the biggest pile of shit myths out in the public domain re. education is that "charter schools" will always be better than public institutions. For the most part, this is completely untrue and it bears out in statistics as they are just as costly, and the students fair no better overall, and they often draw money away from regular public schools.



I've been a parent for 20 years, and i have been in and out of schools during school hours many many times in that period and my youngest is the only of my two kids that has gone to private school.
My oldest always went to Public Schools, and even though i held the same principles with her as i do my baby, she had developed serious issues of acceptance of things I didn't install in her, things i didn't find proper...But she knew the difference and always made the best decisions.
My youngest went to 1st grade in a public school and the entire year was hell for her. she forgot to take her bible out of her school bag on Sunday and got suspended 3 days for even having it in the building, i was pissed but i got over it because i wrongly respected the fact that it was a banned book from the school system, fine, whatever, our mistake i guess.
but then there were death threats and bomb threats and all sorts of disciplinary problems from other kids there, bad home lives where parents just didn't care about their kids or whatever.
I drew the line when she was assaulted on the school bus and scarred on her face for life while the driver did nothing.
The school even tried to defend her actions and didn't even discipline the child who assaulted her, that was it, all this grief in first grade? forget that shit, action was going to be taken now.

Sadly CAT, this goes on all too often.:( I have a friend that used to teach where I had taught, she also hated the district and left. Well, she was punched in the back while breaking up a fight in her new district, and she has to get some form of surgery most likely, but she has to wait until she gets tenure, because she fears she'll be fired (denied it) otherwise...

And as for the Bible, I don't know what's up in Ohio, but I've seen (English) teachers with Bibles in their classrooms as well as in school libraries (it is literature in addition to being a religious text after all). If a kid had brought a Bible into my classroom, that would have been the least of my worries, believe me. I had ninth-graders higher than a kite, and a fucking worthless Administration that routinely looked the other way, and did little about drugs or alcohol.



Oh yeah, that sat real well with me, so well that i funded Tara's first year in private school with the settlement the school offered for me NOT to press charges against the school and the bus driver.

In the last 4 years she has done superbly in school and guess what, nothing at all like what we had to deal with in the public system, oh, i'm sorry, Nick "Ohio's" public school system, has had to be dealt with.

I don't expect anyone who hasn't been through what we have to understand, but when you start off challenging me by calling me a Dolt for doing what is best for my child, Fuck You, plain and simple, it's un-christian of course, but i'm human and it pissed me off.

So, if i am going to end or continue a discussion with someone I want to know where they stand, from experience or from popular opinion that i can already see is based on ignorance.

CAT, I wasn't calling you a dolt,:D I was referring to the supposed Christian Organizations (which is sort of a contradiction based on my admittedly limited readings of the Gospels), that seek milage out of this stuff, often wildly taking it out of context.

For example, I posted an article regarding the idiot Senator from Oklahoma that claimed that "lesbian" high school girls were constantly getting it on in the OK school bathrooms. His underlying fear was of course that he was inadequate and all women will turn into lesbians. It turned out to be patently false, alarmist bullshit. People take an isolated incident (if any incident in fact happened), and turn it into the "norm." In fact God is mentioned frequently in public schools. In the school system I was subbing in, they had a "moment of silence" after The Pledge (one nation under God;). When I was a full time teacher, I often broached stories that had a religious, (and sometimes and anti-religious) moralist angle. So, I think there is a lot of alarmist hysteria based on some bad info out there.

[bastardog]

Originally posted by FORD
That explains the whole "12 days of Christmas" thing.

I believe that the Greek & Russian Orthodox churches also celebrate Christmas on January 6, though I don't remember what their reasoning for this is.

Remember that Joseph and Mary were on the road to Bethlehem to pay their taxes, so it's far more likely that JC was born in April.

January 6 is "The 3 Kings Day".
Some short time after Jesus was born (12 day by church...but unknown by Bible) there were 3 kings that was following a star sign to the birth place of the Mesiah to present him with some values.
That is the reason for the January 6 celebration on latin houses......even, that day was the only day when families do the gift thing.......until offcourse the Santa's thing start to flow. Now we do gifts the two days.

Jan 6 is even a non-labor day (as Dic 25) here in Puerto Rico

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
LMMFAO, agreed, I see your point.

And look, I don't even blame the teachers, I fully understand the frustration by most because it isn't the teachers that run the schools. so in my view they are as much the victim as the children in that system.

I see the reports about those who take their political agendas to the classromm, which is wrong, but those kinds of teachers are few and far between.
I actually respect anyone who decides to take a teaching position because they are pushed up against the wall from the start.

my point is that our school system failed and when it comes to my kids, you don't get a second chance.
I do what is best for them and that's all there is to it.

BTW, not that it matters, but I never had a "political agenda" while in school, though I had several of my (smarter students) that would bring up Iraq in discussions, and the majority of them hated the war, and hated Pres. BUSH (I bit my tongue and I tacitly made fun of ALL PRESIDENTS). And I also read inherently anti-Communist novels by G. Orwell.

But what did happen was a student that was leftist musician type wrote an anti-war editorial that was very much anti-Fearless Leader for the school newspaper. The resident right wing lunatic bitch on the school board attacked the teacher running the paper (who was a dick btw, but that's another story) and tried to get the story pulled. So, it swings both ways. I think somebody finally spoke up and told her that this kid was old enough to serve in IRAQ, but he can't have freedom of speech to write about it.

Or, maybe her son could enlist instead of going to college.:)

So, I was a little nauseated when I saw Big TRAIN'S horrifying thread on one teacher in VT written by a op-ed douche bag that has nothing better to say.

I was honestly waiting for the punch-line.

Ooooooh! He made quizzes that mildly poked fun at BUSH, ooooooooooOOOoooooooHhh, the world's ending is caused by liberal teachers...

**vomit**:)

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, not that it matters, but I never had a "political agenda" while in school, though I had several of my (smarter students) that would bring up Iraq in discussions, and the majority of them hated the war, and hated Pres. BUSH (I bit my tongue and I tacitly made fun of ALL PRESIDENTS). And I also read inherently anti-Communist novels by G. Orwell.

But what did happen was a student that was leftist musician type wrote an anti-war editorial that was very much anti-Fearless Leader for the school newspaper. The right wing lunatic bitch on the school board attacked the teacher (who was a dick btw, but that's another story) and tried to get the story pulled. So, it swings both ways. I think somebody finally spoke up and told her that this kid was old enough to serve in IRAQ, but he can't have freedom of speech to write about it.

So, I was a little nauseated when I saw Big TRAINS horrifying thread on one teacher in VT written by a op-ed douche bag that has nothing better to say. I was waiting for the punch-line.

Ooooooh! He made quizzes that mildly poked fun at BUSH, ooooooooooOOOoooooooHhh, the worlds ending is cause by liberal teachers...

**vomit**:)

Okie dokie, I just read your posts, and i see your point, and i didn't have to O'Reilly ya to find the common ground, lol.

See Lounge, there is hope for me yet...:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Okie dokie, I just read your posts, and i see your point, and i didn't have to O'Reilly ya to find the common ground, lol.

See Lounge, there is hope for me yet...:)

You guys are both brilliant, passionate, opinionated, stubborn, and worth reading, even if your word counts tend to run into the billions;)

2006 is gonna be a barnburner:cool:

[Millermoos]

'and by the way Feliz Navidad means Merry Christmas
Navidad comes from Natividad that is like born
so it is something like say happy Christ birth celebration.'

'But for most latino families Christmas (Navidad) begin in December as you do but ends after January 6 (another hollyday)'

gracias for information Bastardog I know what infierno means....

hasta luego,
Millermooa