Bush has GOT to Go!!!

[Cathedral]

You all know how i feel about NAFTA and CAFTA, the so-called Fair Trade deals, right?
Well, since the auto industry is in such trouble i decided to explore why exactly.

Over the last week 3 people i know that work in the auto industry lost their jobs. 2 at the Ford plant in Batavia and a cousin who works for Chrysler in their Detroit office.

I have heard for years how people who buy foreign cars claim it has no effect on America, well that is wholly incorrect, and here's why.

For every 100 cars any of the big 3 auto makers sell there are 23 American jobs supported. For every 100 foreign cars sold here in america only 11 american jobs are supported economically.
So in reality, if you buy a foreign car you are pulling the rug out from under 12 American jobs.
Deny it all you want, but the numbers don't lie.
So before you go buying that new Lexus or Honda, keep this in mind.

If a Fair Trade deal were actually Fair, these numbers would be equal, right?
We allow foreign companies to sell their products here but in most cases our products are charged higher tarriff's on their end, and in some cases they reject the shipments all together.

Mexico actually suffers the hardest from these deals when we should have in place agreements that protect Mexico and team us up with Canada as well.
If these Free Trade Agreements were to be fixed it could mean a reduction in illegal immigration from mexico because there would be more work with better pay in their own country.

The numbers don't lie, and the fact is that only 35 people actually benefit from Nafta and Cafta....Bush being one of those people, the rest being fat cat Billionaire's who don't give a damn about our own people.
We have lost a substantial amount of our own sovereignty because of these deals and in fact, we are being sold down the river at an alarming rate by this administration.

Outsourcing is nothing but protection for american companies who no longer want to pay higher wages to american workers, still think these agreements are Fair?......your blind if you do.

We have got to start a movement that stops and corrects these deals. and for those who don't want to pay up and give as good as they get, they should be made to find another supplier.

It won't be long until this damage will be irreversable, and the clock is ticking.
We must come together on this and begin a movement because we were let down by our state representatives when they failed to block CAFTA, and knew damn well they should have.

Here's how we start.
Find out how your reps voted on CAFTA, and if they voted for it, boot them out of office and tell them why.

Politicians should be held accountable for their shortcomings and actions of greed, from your local City Council right up to the President of the United States.
It's our country to protect, not theirs to destroy, and we all must make a stand and remind these tools who they work for, the people that elected them.
If they don't change course and move to correct these mistakes then we end their terms at the first possible opportunity.

Look, if any of our leaders felt accountable at all to the voters, they wouldn't be doing what they're doing without fear of having to answer for it.

The political games must stop and we must take our country back, and the time is now...........

[FORD]

I was opposed to NAFTA from day one. Even though it was Poppy's creation (and contrary to right wing talk radio opinion, he was the one who signed it), I'll never forgive Clinton and the DLC moles for pushing the ratification of this shit.

Perot was right. The Unions were right. Corporatized "free trade" sucks ass!

[thome]

I didn't want to post when i read the opening piece and i still don't,
since i read Fords. It's all about the -Unions- and I have to many Union friends......

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by thome
I didn't want to post when i read the opening piece and i still don't,
since i read Fords. It's all about the -Unions- and I have to many Union friends......

What do you mean it's all about the Unions?
The Unions suffer from this Corporate Greed more than anyone does.
The majority of manufacturing jobs that have been sent overseas were Union jobs.
Because you have friends in the Unions, as do i, i'd think you would want to try and reverse these Anti-American-Worker Trade Deals?

Ford, this is one of those areas where i think both sides are against us, buddy.
Clinton should have squashed NAFTA without a moments hesitation.
But since he was the one who enacted it, he was the one i blamed for it when SSI lost all of it's work due to outsourcing and we all lost our jobs.
This shit just isn't right and it has to stop.
I don't want to vote for anyone who doesn't make fixing or killing NAFTA and CAFTA a priority.

American Jobs Belong In America, Period!

[FORD]

There are some Democrats - Clinton is probably one of them - who claimed they supported NAFTA because they thought they could actually help other countries come up to the level of the US as far as working conditions, wages, etc.

While that's an admirable goal, it certainly shouldn't come at the expense of the American working class. But that has been the result. And even those who are still gainfully employed have been hit by this crap, in addition to all the other economic damage caused by BCE policies. If you're still making the same money (on paper) that you made in $2000, the reality is you're earning a lot less. Due to the oil price ripoff and its ripple effect on damn near everything else. And beyond that the health care prices that are completely out of control. My premiums have increased by about 500% since 2000, and it's not due to anything on my part.

The whole goddamn system is broken, and I'll be damned if I know how to fix it. But the obvious first step is to remove the corporatists from the federal government.

By whatever means neccessary. And no, I didn't stutter, Mr. lurking federal agent.

[BigBadBrian]

Gotta agree with FORD and Cat with their posts in this thread.

Start the Fireworks. :D


Anyway, I think this should be THEE major issue in the '06 mid-term and '08 Presidential elections. Not the "War on Terror" :rolleyes: , not education, not abortion, not anything but protecting American jobs.

Hey, Globalization is here to stay and it's a fact of life. I realize that. But the trade balance is simply ridiculous. American corporations are fucking over the American worker and are being enabled by those fucking fat cats of both parties in Congress. They need to be shit-canned, every damned one of them. :cool:

[Nickdfresh]

Companies that outsource American jobs, or place their "headquarters" in the Bahamas to avoid being labeled a US company, need to be made to pay severe tax penalties, for the tax revenue that is lost, and the unemployment benefits received by US workers...

[Cathedral]

Alrighty then, now we're talkin...keep the support coming, get out and start it growing so the buzz can get started.

The war in Iraq won't be an election issue until '08 since Bush is in office until then.
Jobs should most definately be the main issue this mid-term and follow through and accompany Iraq in '08 when something can actually be changed there by a new administration.

As BBB said, and i agree, I am aware of globalization and willing to play the game IF THE RULES ARE FAIR, and they're damn sure not right now.
I said it 12 years ago, the job losses will continue and they have at an even larger rate than i thought back then.
Now with CAFTA added to it, what the hell does anyone realistically expect to happen?

I hope people like being on their feet because waiting tables makes them hurt after a few hours.
That's where the majority of jobs were created in the last 3 quarters, so don't let the numbers fool you.
Manufacturing used to be this countries bread and butter...Now it's the service industry.

Diamler/Chrysler is about to lay off a shit load of people, so they aren't doing as well as originally thought either.

It's getting really really bad out there, somethings got to be done yesterday.

[DLR'sCock]

This is one of main reason why I voted fro Nader in 1996 and 2000.....



Unchecked unrepentant greed will be the downfall of this country....

[jhale667]

I'm loving all the bi-partisanship in here today...:D

[bobgnote]

Originally posted by thome
I didn't want to post when i read the opening piece and i still don't,
since i read Fords. It's all about the -Unions- and I have to many Union friends......

The unions are on their way OUT, having ignored the illegal, inflationary, post-deregulation power deals, so that the same inducted inflation mechanisms which are sucking funds out of cities and service districts are killing the airlines and automakers.

Guess you all know about the cool, new, cheap Chinese cars.

By the way, 9/11 is ALL ABOUT how the unions AND all the other corrupt media, illegally gathered in fraud just now under Chimpster, the whole 16 tons inc. of it refused to notice how NOBODY gets to keep either or both of the INFLATIONARY, POST-DEREGULATION POWER DEALS or the MILITARY AID TO ISRAEL.

The Israeli situ is like that of the North Tower, hit first, while we are like the South Tower, hit later but going down, FIRST, before Israel, since the idiots at media in the US will try to make a dollar out of fifteen cents all night, yet the Chinese are here already, and Al Queda has said real plain, GET OUT OF DODGE WITH YOUR POWER PLAYS AND POWER DEALS, both. You get to keep NEITHER.

So what about ENRON, when compared with the denial by all media that the post-deregulation power deals are both inflationary AND the specific incitement for Al Queda to embark on the 9/11 trend, leading to ALL of the following outcomes:

1. Iraq War
2. Afghan War
3. Failure to fund levees and the NO and Sacramento floods, more up
4. Fraud and denial by all unlawfully proximate media gathered under the USA, in re how the inflation from the power deals is to be reported, since the trade deficit hides inflation in the ordinary price indices.

The US is actually failing at funding its infrastructure, leading to catastrophe of infrastructure, by 2008, the 126th year since the 1882 Zionist invasion of Palestine, yep, 18 x 7, other hints that 2008 is hot are LZ-126 was the number of the City of LA Zeppelin, and 126 AD is when the Temple in J-town, West Bank went down to the wall, and Rome then called the whole place Syria-Palestina, until it was jacked.

Hey. I don't get to fund the illegal power plays or deals. So what IS so tough, about OTHER media admitting the power deals have cut us? See BRAC? That means HIDING the inflation is seditious, directly.

But Chimp and his friends are hiding the inflation AND trying to ensure bin Laden and al Zawahiri's forces attack AND damage us, so Chimp can swing off in the confusion of his pretense to 'secure' the USA by ripping us of of all our rights AND any actual guitar you or I play, THAT IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THE FATBOYS, inc. to steal and fence!

The NSA is doing EXACTLY what I have been telling you all that it and the FBI do, WHICH LED TO THE VAN HALEN YOU ALL LISTENED TO.

So, when somebody calls DAve a kike and I chime in, it is because I KNOW that K and Ike got together BECAUSE SOMEBODY IS A KLEPTO USING DIASPORA and corporate leverage, AS A GETAWAY VEHICLE.

The Chimpy scene is a reflection of the Reagan scene, when he was Governor of California in the 1960s and ordered the FBI into Berkeley. That was SO lucrative, here is CHIMPY, getting after YOU, the same way orange Ron went after my generation and got ME, good.

HEY. They really steal. They take IP or sell the feed to the chump under the wire to corporations. The PIGS will do anything, to anyone. They will use the negative information AND GIVE YOUR RECORD SOME DISTORTION THAT CAN LEAD TO YOUR DEATH! The US is Ugly Sucka.

So, when Al Queda decided on Math lessons for the US, they were READY, to die in attacks, and they are trying to make issues clearer. The attacks will happen anytime, but REALLY watch out for 2008.

[Cathedral]

Oh boy, and it just keeps getting better.
Kraft is letting 8,000 jobs go and closing 20 factories.

Yeah, we sure got us one hell of a President, don't we?

He sure knows how to protect the american people, eh?
We'll be safe, just homeless and hungry.

God, please forgive me for what i did by voting for this lunatic twice.
I apparently didn't know what i was doing or getting for my support.

Hindsight, gets ya every time.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Companies that outsource American jobs, or place their "headquarters" in the Bahamas to avoid being labeled a US company, need to be made to pay severe tax penalties, for the tax revenue that is lost, and the unemployment benefits received by US workers...

That shit will never happen on Dubya's watch.

"It's your money. You paid for it." —George W. Bush, LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

[Warham]

Boy, it sure was a nice day today!

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Cathedral
You all know how i feel about NAFTA and CAFTA, the so-called Fair Trade deals, right?
Well, since the auto industry is in such trouble i decided to explore why exactly.


Cathedral, as a consumer, please keep this in mind. People buy foriegn cars because they have cache American cars have not had for decades. American cars have a reputation for shoddiness and a bad track record for longevity (trucks excluded). Chrysler is STARTING to put out some exciting products finally, but their long term durability is still in question. A Honda Accord is a Honda Accord. I know what I'm getting. I buy it for my daughter, she has a dependable car for 250K miles. A Chevy Malibu will be dead in my driveway at 82K. Its that simple. Not to mention the Malibu has the styling of a UPS truck.

Regardless of the labor situation, the core problem is that they have made weak products for so long, there is no faith anymore.

One could (and I'm sure Ford will) argue the same about my industry. In my industry though, there is no illusion of safety via a union. Hits or your out. And what a "hit" is changes every 10 weeks. The product life cycle of a automaker gives them years, if not decades to pull it together. Dearborn just apparently can't do that. So Japan is doing it for them.

[Warham]

I only buy Nissan vehicles.

[Flash Bastard]

Originally posted by Warham
I only buy Nissan vehicles.

Isn't Nissan owned by Ford Motor Company, or is it the other way around?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Flash Bastard
Isn't Nissan owned by Ford Motor Company, or is it the other way around?

No, that's Mazda. And GM has some sort of relationship with Toyota, though I don't believe it's anything near full ownership. Nissan remains completely a Japanese company, to my knowledge.

[Hardrock69]

In a way it is kinda like with all the business partnerships and the investment Japan & The U.S. have in each other's economy, we are literally two sides of the same coin....

I mean look...Japanese company buys into an American auto manufacturer (or vice versa). Seems to me an awful lot of new Japanese auto plants have sprung up around the U.S. over the past 10 years.

Sure there are all the other issues about opening the markets in Japan to outside investment, as well as the ratio of jobs lost in U.S. factories due to outsourcing vs. the jobs gained by foreign investment (not even close to the numbers).
At least we are gaining some jobs back...could be worse...

You could wonder, for instance, would all the major record labels have survived intact that Sony bought up if it had not bought them or merged with them?

What woulda happened without Sony?

Doom?

Economic Ruin?

Plague?


Riots In The Streets?

*ahem*

But I digress.....


Ya know...now would be the time to unveil top-secret power technology....

If you could instantly come up with a device that would supply electricity forever with no moving parts, there would be some groovy things happening...

Like...the American oil industry would collapse, followed by the auto industry....

The Arabs would suddenly see their oil sales drop sharply....

The profits would be gone from oil...thus Arabs who also happened to be terrorists or their financiers would be too busy trying to keep their camels alive, or tires on their 30-year-old beat up Mercedes Benz.....

Hey...what better way to stop terrorism?

[Flash Bastard]

Originally posted by FORD
No, that's Mazda. And GM has some sort of relationship with Toyota, though I don't believe it's anything near full ownership. Nissan remains completely a Japanese company, to my knowledge.

The Nissan -vs- Mazda thing always confuses me.

I bought a 1988 Pontiac LeMans and was quite pissed off to learn is was actually made in Korea by Daewoo. That thing looked like an AMC Pacer, I thought Americans were the only ones capable of making something that ugly.

Same thing with the Chrysler I bought a few years back.... turns out it's actually a Mitsubishi Eclipse without the turbo.

Fuckers.

[BigBadBrian]

I don't give a fuck...

.....if you drive Jappanese....

.....you're not supporting the American economy.

It's that simple. It's just like Cat said.

There are stylish enough Ford, GM, and Chrysler products out there.

Yes, quality was an issue in the past. On some vehicles.

The parity is negligible now days.

I have a friend who is a Service Manager at a Toyota/Honda dealership who works on commission. They aren't exactly hurting for business, if you know what I mean. Think those cars "run forever?" OK, yeah right....... :rolleyes: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by blueturk
"It's your money. You paid for it." —George W. Bush, LaCrosse, Wis., Oct. 18, 2000

LMAO. It is just so embarrassing that this guy is our president.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Flash Bastard
The Nissan -vs- Mazda thing always confuses me.

I bought a 1988 Pontiac LeMans and was quite pissed off to learn is was actually made in Korea by Daewoo. That thing looked like an AMC Pacer, I thought Americans were the only ones capable of making something that ugly.

Same thing with the Chrysler I bought a few years back.... turns out it's actually a Mitsubishi Eclipse without the turbo.

Fuckers.

So the "Imported For Chrysler" stamp didn't clue you in at all? LMMFAO

[Warham]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
LMAO. It is just so embarrassing that this guy is our president.

Now, now, Sharkie.

Remember, Jimmy Carter was president once.

[thome]

Bush Rules Bush is nice an fancy./....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
Now, now, Sharkie.

Remember, Jimmy Carter was president once.

Jesus Christ, do you even OWN a Calendar?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by thome
Bush Rules Bush is nice an fancy./....


Must be 5 o'clock in a trailer park somewhere....

:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Jesus Christ, do you even OWN a Calendar?

I know, Jimmy Carter is a sore spot for you guys, huh?

It must be tough knowing that the last two Democratic presidents were a peanut farmer and a guy who's married to Hillary Rodham.

[thome]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Must be 5 o'clock in a trailer park somewhere....

:rolleyes:
Yup..

Its all about the Change You Know Damn good an well you want

[kentuckyklira]

The Bush administration has been about filling the coffers of those whose coffers don´t really need anymore filling from day one!

Tricle down = give the people just enough so they stay quiet!

As long as there are enough illegal immigrants around to mow the lawn and clean the pool!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I only buy Nissan vehicles.

Good God why? At buy a good Japanese sourced vehicle....

(actually, I'd only buy Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus if I buy Japanese again...)

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Good God why? At buy a good Japanese sourced vehicle....

(actually, I'd only buy Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus if I buy Japanese again...)

They are good. I've never had a problem with my X-Terra, and it almost has 120k on it. Just oil changes. Had a regular pick-up a few years ago, same thing. 100k+ and no problems. My ex-wife still drives it during winter, it's a '95. Those cars are built to last.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I don't give a fuck...

.....if you drive Jappanese....

.....you're not supporting the American economy.

It's that simple. It's just like Cat said.

There are stylish enough Ford, GM, and Chrysler products out there.

Yes, quality was an issue in the past. On some vehicles.

The parity is negligible now days.

I have a friend who is a Service Manager at a Toyota/Honda dealership who works on commission. They aren't exactly hurting for business, if you know what I mean. Think those cars "run forever?" OK, yeah right....... :rolleyes: :confused: :confused: :rolleyes:

So what? I'm not supporting the American economy via major auto makers because they make an inferior products, IN MY EYES. When they convince me otherwise, I MIGHT consider purchasing them again.

What I don't get and cathedral I need to ask this of you, why ISN'T anyone pissed at say, Bill Ford for example? They made shit for eons and now the unions are mad at the consumers for not buying american? Why aren't they pissed at their employers for creating the shitty products, which led to the state they are in now?

[Cathedral]

Well, it's really very simple and some will not like what i'm going to say.
But here goes, lol.

The Unions have no right to be mad at anyone because they are as much to blame as anyone, i'm speaking of the work ethics a majority of Union members do not have.
It's been established that the pace is set by the slowest person and they want to work half shifts and get paid for full time, and they've gotten away with it.
Unions have always had too much power and too little overall responsibility.
I worked for Fisher Body just before they closed here in Fairfiled back in 88 as a janitor and i learned first hand that union workers had probably the shittiest attitudes of any employee i've ever seen.

It wasn't that Ford, GM and Chrysler were designing bad products, they were built by people who didn't give a fuck about the quality of their work, most walked around pissed all day because they were pissed about one thing or another.

For instance, a fellow by the man of Paul Webb worked for Ford and he and a few other guys would rig cars to be defective by welding 3 links of chain to the framing just prior to the quarter panels being welded in place.
This would insure a rattle nobody could find short of cutting into the car to find the chain links.
These little "tricks" were common when an employee had a beef with management.
sad thing is that they dug their own future graves with shit like that, and as i said, that shit was common.

Since then things have come a long way, the cars you got through the 80's and early 90's had their issues, but that isn't the case today.
American cars over the last several years have been very competitive with foreign models because the way things have been run for decades built all 3 a reputation they will never completely live down, sad but true.

The Unions dug their own graves, so they can't blame anyone but themselves.
I can't restore your faith in american cars, so i won't even try to do so.
But times are different and everyone now see's (albeit too late) that they fucked themselves.
The thought of losing that cushy union job seems to be a motivating factor these days.

For me, there isn't a foreign car out there that whispered "Buy Me" when i saw it. All i ever saw in a foreign car was a foreign company earning capital that belongs here at home.
A lot of it has to do with the Trade Agreements because they aren't fair and ultimately ends up killing a business on our soil when the playing field isn't level.

Now if these deals were to be made equal then a foreign car would put just as much back as it takes out, end of problem. but that isn't the case so an american worker is sacrificed ultimately when sales fall on our products and sales increase for the foreign companies.

They pay less to import products here then we do to export them there, even if the products are worth the same, see what i mean?
It isn't a level playing field and in the end it is the blue collar worker who loses his ass.

Other issues involved are the fact that we don't market internationally.
Toyota and Nissan build right and left handed cars because they deal in Europe to, so there is a complete market we aren't vested in because we don't off cars designed for their culture.

But we'll never get that far at this point because our auto makers are going belly up, and this time it is due to global economics not just a slow buyers market.

The only thing that would have prevented this is not allowing Toyota specifically, make their own rules in dealing with us.
They don't give a shit if we buy their cars or not and they sure don't allow many of ours in their market, and that is just fucking wrong that we agree to do business like that.

The reasons to buy american are many, but like you i don't want to buy an inferior product, but i've been lucky with my american rides, mostly because i prefer them older when they were actually built to last 20 years.

[Cathedral]

Oh and it is actually bigger than the Auto makers.
it used to be that the factories made their own parts, but now all of them have companies that make the parts and stock them so they aren't made in house anymore.

ACDelco services GM
Mopar services Diamler/Chrysler
I can't remember who supplies Ford, brain fart, lol.

These companies are effected if a maker goes under.
Plastics companies that make interior panels are effected if a maker goes under, and vice versa.
It's like a damned domino factor that keeps reaching out and ripping whatever comapny is contracted to them apart, cause layoff's and closed business's.
We have a company near here that makes the wiring harnesses for GM cars, and they are laying people off as we speak.

It's a fucking mess and honestly i don't see any way out short of fixing the trade agreements

[4moreyears]

GM's biggest problem (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/06/16/gms_healthcare_dilemma/)

(Paraphrase)

The question is facetious, but there's nothing funny about GM's predicament. At the company's annual meeting in Detroit last week, CEO Rick Wagoner told shareholders that health benefits add a staggering $1,500 to the price of every vehicle GM makes. GM will spend more than $5.6 billion this year on health coverage for 1.1 million people -- a population greater than Rhode Island's. Yet of that number, only 160,000 or so are current employees: The majority are retirees and their families. And with GM planning to shed 25,000 jobs through attrition over the next three years, its already lopsided ratio of 2.6 retirees per active employee is only going to get worse.

I am not willing to spend 1500 extra to buy a new car from GM to support their healthcare costs, When a majority of those receiving benefits are no longer working there it shows how bad agreements were signed and people had no idea on how entitlement could bring a company like GM to it's knees. I can not see of having a labor agreement as the responsibility of any politician.

[Big Train]

To me your argument cathedral is apples and oranges. The quality of the product is bad, so the company does poorly as a result. I don't understand what trade changes would do to fix a company with shitty products.

On the one hand I'm hearing you say "Buy American, save American jobs". On the other hands i'm hearing you say "the unions dug their own grave". Which is it?

Are you asking me to support American workers who do a shitty job and sell me a shitty product, because they are American?

The healthcare and manufacturing concerns will always be there, in many industries.

Healthcare and intellectual property are the two biggest areas killing American businesses. A lot of autowork is going to be removed anyway as automation improves.

The bottom line is we have too many workers who aren't trained for the industries America is making money in today and the two problems I listed above are killing the business we do have in those areas.

Not much of that relates to fair trades agreements.