Refineries cut production to [color=red][b]protect gasoline profits[/b][/color]

[FORD]

Feb. 1, 2006, 12:28AM
Refineries cut production to protect gasoline profits

Reuters News Service

NEW YORK - Oil refiners cut fuel production in some states this week to counter slipping profit margins, drawing fire from critics already incensed by soaring gasoline prices and Big Oil's recent record profits.

San Antonio-based Valero Energy Corp., the nation's largest fuel producer, said Tuesday it slowed output from its refinery in Ohio by more than 10 percent for economic reasons, even as the company announced its 10th straight quarter of record earnings.

Earlier in the week, British energy giant BP slashed fuel production from its refinery in Whiting, Ind., by 10 to 15 percent because of lower profit margins in the region, market sources said. BP declined to comment.

U.S. gasoline prices averaged $2.34 a gallon Tuesday, nearly 50 cents higher than a year ago.

Oil refiners traditionally slow fuel production when profit margins fall into the red — something that happens when the cost of crude rises too high relative to the selling price of gasoline and heating oil.

The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association, which represents several U.S. oil companies, said the slowdown by some refiners is not a threat to the nation's supply and should be seen as a normal seasonal variation.

"Inventories in that part of the country are high and pipelines are full," the association said in a prepared statement.

Politicians and consumer groups set off a fresh wave of calls for special taxes against Big Oil after Exxon Mobil Corp. on Monday posted a record profit of $10.7 billion in the latest quarter and more than $36 billion for the year.

talk about people who deserve the death penalty!! It's time to nationalize the fucking oil industry and put these fucking criminals out of business once and for all

[ELVIS]

NATIONALIZE THE OIL INDUSTRY ????


You're the fucking SOCIALIST NAZI !!


:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
NATIONALIZE THE OIL INDUSTRY ????


You're the fucking SOCIALIST NAZI !!


:elvis:

These fucking pieces of shit are DESTROYING the entire economic structure of this nation. What the fuck would you suggest?

[ELVIS]

Anything but nationalizing the oil industry...

I would support nationalizing healthcare before supporting federal oil...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Anything but nationalizing the oil industry...

I would support nationalizing healthcare before supporting federal oil...

That's not a bad idea either, since corporate hospitals, insurance companies, and pharma manufacturers are almost as corrupt as the oil industry. But that's a subject for another thread.

Point is, these companies must be regulated at the very least, and there must be a "ceiling" as to the prices they can charge. As I said, the entire economy is tied to the use of oil, and until that fundamental structure can be changed with alternatives, something MUST be done. This country is headed for another Great Depression, and with yet another incompetent Chimpappointee now at the Federal Reserve, it will probably be worse than before.

[Warham]

Greenspan was a great chairman for the Reserve. I don't know how anyone could bitch about his role there.

[LoungeMachine]

I started a thread calling for the Nationalization of the Oil Industry months ago....


National security. It's post 9/11

It's a different world out there, remember repukes?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Greenspan was a great chairman for the Reserve. I don't know how anyone could bitch about his role there.

Better get some glasses, WarPig. I was referring to the fact that Greenspan is now GONE. And considering the track record of Chimp appointees, I'm expecting yet another incompetent piece of shit to royally fuck things up. Just like Brownie. And Rummy. And Condi. and pretty much the rest of them.

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I started a thread calling for the Nationalization of the Oil Industry months ago....


National security. It's post 9/11

It's a different world out there, remember repukes?

Talking like Cock is so beneath you, Lounge.

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
Better get some glasses, WarPig. I was referring to the fact that Greenspan is now GONE. And considering the track record of Chimp appointees, I'm expecting yet another incompetent piece of shit to royally fuck things up. Just like Brownie. And Rummy. And Condi. and pretty much the rest of them.

Well, seeing as how Greenspan was brought on board back when Reagan was in office and apparently under the influence of the 'BCE', I don't see a new appointee as being a problem.

You forgot to add Colin Powell on that list, FORD.

[Cathedral]

It's going to get worse too.
The pipelines are full here because the buz in the air is that nobody is driving if they don't have to.
I've cut my mileage in half because of fuel prices and that is a growing trend.
let them cut production to save their profit margin, we consumers can hold out longer than they can and it won't be long before it starts eating into that profit margin.

When those record profit numbers came across the news there was a serious grumble heard and felt by everyone, and we're pissed.

There is no damn reason for gas going over $2.20 per gallon, NONE.
And i refuse to fill my tank at that price. I'll put in just what i need to get where i'm going and then my shit is parked.

My heating bill went up $40 per month too, so it isn't just the pumps where people are getting hit by this blatant greed.

I'm going to sell off my vehicles and buy a Ford F-350 Diesel and then get one of those kits that lets you make bio-diesel out of used cooking oil to run it. At .87 per gallon, it's a big FU to the Big Oil Barons.
I'm starting a new job hauling RV's all over the country and this will put the profit in my pockets instead of theirs.
I've heard of these kits for months, but actually saw a story about it today..It's worth a shot to stick it to the greedy bastards.

Your local diner has barrels of used oil waiting to be picked up, they'll gladly give it to you so they can save on calling the disposal company and paying them to take it.

[Warham]

We could always go back to horse and carriages.

[Cathedral]

Hold that thought, Warham.
I like my classic cars and i like driving, but i hate being taken advantage of more than i like those other things.

We do have options that keep them from profiting. it just depends on the individuals resolve to fight back.

[ELVIS]

Where would FORD fill up his gas guzzling truck ??

[Warham]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Where would FORD fill up his gas guzzling truck ??

What does FORD drive anyway?

[ELVIS]

A gas guzzling truck!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
We could always go back to horse and carriages.


How forward thinking of you :rolleyes:


But then, this whole Neo-Con agenda seems to want to go back.....back before there were those pesky Bill Of Rights, and that God damn Constitution ;)


Here's a Q for you.....

If Chimpy at his SOTU address has just announced that we are addicted to oil, and that we need to look forward to technology solving our problems,.......WHY NOT OPEN UP THE NOTES AND MEMBERS OF CHENEY'S "ENERGY TASK FORCE" THAT MET IN SECRET 5 YEARS AGO???????

Wonder if they talked about ANYTHING other than OIl and War :rolleyes:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Where would FORD fill up his gas guzzling truck ??

http://www.dubyasworld.com/citgo-venezuela.jpg

But not very often. Yesterday was the first time I filled my tank since well before Christmas. Probably closer to Turkey Day, actually.

I never have driven that much in the winter anyway.

My next vehicle will probably be a biodiesel engine, since the odds of a hybrid I could actually drive comfortably probably aren't that good.

[ELVIS]

I, on the other hand, drive a Dodge neon...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
What does FORD drive anyway?

A FORD, oddly enough.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I, on the other hand, drive a Dodge neon...

A real Babe Magnet :D ;)

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
How forward thinking of you :rolleyes:


But then, this whole Neo-Con agenda seems to want to go back.....back before there were those pesky Bill Of Rights, and that God damn Constitution ;)


Here's a Q for you.....

If Chimpy at his SOTU address has just announced that we are addicted to oil, and that we need to look forward to technology solving our problems,.......WHY NOT OPEN UP THE NOTES AND MEMBERS OF CHENEY'S "ENERGY TASK FORCE" THAT MET IN SECRET 5 YEARS AGO???????

Wonder if they talked about ANYTHING other than OIl and War :rolleyes:

I always hear you liberals bitch about oil this and oil that, so I figured I'd cut it off and suggest we go back to the 'good ole days'.

[ELVIS]

I like my neon...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
A real Babe Magnet :D ;)


Ever been to the Mopar Nationals?
If you had you'd know that they actually are babe magnets, especially an SRT-8 that would put most vintage V-8's to shame.

[ELVIS]

Check out my SRT-8 rims...:D

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I like my neon...

Hang on to it, they are getting the axe next year and being replaced by some Aztek looking thing.

[ELVIS]

Yeah, the Dodge Caliber...

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-18001-395542-13747/Dodge%20Caliber%20001.jpg


:elvis:

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Check out my SRT-8 rims...:D

Is that hood painted flat black? lmmfao
I know the rims aren't standard.....whats under the hood?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah, the Dodge Caliber...

http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/31-18001-395542-13747/Dodge%20Caliber%20001.jpg


:elvis:

That's ugly, it's just a scaled down Durango with a Durango price tag.

[FORD]

Actually, it almost looks like they're trying to rip off the VW Touraeg (or however the Hell they spell it)

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Is that hood painted flat black? lmmfao
I know the rims aren't standard.....whats under the hood?

Carbon fiber hood...

SRT-8 rims...

Ported and polished head...

Header...

No catalytic converter...

3" exhaust...

Mopar performance computer...

Cold air intake...


Runs great at high RPM!


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Toureg

[Cathedral]

I bet that will smoke the tires pretty good too.
You should take it to the Nationals in August, it will be in excellent company.

[ELVIS]

http://photos.velocityjournal.com/images/stk/2004/vw2004toureg01.jpg


Actually, I like the caliber better...

And there will be a 240hp SRT-4 version...

[FORD]

And speaking of VW, rumor is that one day soon, they will release the newly redesigned VW Bus!

http://vanagon.com/media/concept/img/new_bus_front.jpg

And possibly a "crew cab" pickup as well, also a psuedo retro of the old style.....

http://vanagon.com/media/concept/img/new_crewcab_side.jpg

I could deal with a biodiesel bus, but I think the truck looks kinda cheesy, compared to the 60's version, or even the early 80's pickups based on the Rabbit footprint.

[Cathedral]

The only VW i'd ever own is a 63 Beetle, in white and with a red and blue stripe...Yup, you guessed it, Herbie. :)

[ELVIS]

Imagine the price tag on that VW bus...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Imagine the price tag on that VW bus...

I don't even think they have priced it yet. It's still in the "concept" stage for now. But since the new Bug was successful, I'm surprised they haven't moved on the Bus sooner.

Now when is the new Fastback coming out???? Or the new "Thing"?? How would they update that for the 21st century? :D

[Big Train]

How the fuck do you "nationalize" an international product? Explain Libs, how you do that...

Regulation is for retards. The real way to "stick to the repukes" is to do what I have done and invest in alt. energy. Specifically, I have made large investments (for me) in Archer Midland for example, a large agricultural firm. If oil goes over 100 a barrel, like most experts predict, there will be an even larger explosion in alt. fuels as they become more legitmate. Manufacturers are already "approving" biofuels for new autos (Dodge being the most recent). It's going to boom anyway, but when gas is 3 dollars a gallon and biodiesel is 70 cents a gallon, do the math.

Be pissed about the government and PROFIT from it. Or continue to cry and demand regulation and other such nonsense...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Big Train
How the fuck do you "nationalize" an international product? Explain Libs, how you do that...

Regulation is for retards. The real way to "stick to the repukes" is to do what I have done and invest in alt. energy. Specifically, I have made large investments (for me) in Archer Midland for example, a large agricultural firm. If oil goes over 100 a barrel, like most experts predict, there will be an even larger explosion in alt. fuels as they become more legitmate. Manufacturers are already "approving" biofuels for new autos (Dodge being the most recent). It's going to boom anyway, but when gas is 3 dollars a gallon and biodiesel is 70 cents a gallon, do the math.

Be pissed about the government and PROFIT from it. Or continue to cry and demand regulation and other such nonsense...

You're correct that these things will "boom" eventually, but the alternative energy sources are not going to take over from the oiligarchy as long as their friends, the BCE, are controlling the government. And it's because of the blatant fraud committed by these unregulated corporations that makes me say that drastic measures are required.

If the only net effect of high gas prices was less recreational driving, I'd be all for it. But as I've said now twice in this thread, the blatant theft and lies of these corporations is destroying the entire economy. And your investments in biodiesel aren't going to do you much good when it costs $15 for a loaf of bread, because the windfall ain't gonna be there yet.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by FORD
You're correct that these things will "boom" eventually, but the alternative energy sources are not going to take over from the oiligarchy as long as their friends, the BCE, are controlling the government. And it's because of the blatant fraud committed by these unregulated corporations that makes me say that drastic measures are required.


BULLSHIT.

There is WAY to much money on the table.

C,mon Ford, grow some balls and walk the walk. You hate the oil companies so bad, yet you want to cry and admit that you are powerless against them? Fuck that.

Go buy a conversion system and a home brew pump. I saw some fucking lunkhead on Spike TV do it on Sat. on that "Trucks" show. $500-1000 for the conversion system, takes about an hour to brew. He made 25 gallons (half the capcaity of the size system he bought) for 60 cents a gallon and then took a high performance truck out and beat the piss out of it. He claimed it lost zero performance and actually ran smoother.

In fact if you don't , you are really full of shit in terms of how you feel about the war, the oil companies and the government. Your convictions will mean zero essentially. Here is a CLEAR alternative that can be done easily and you are copping out as to not being able to, like this is some Communist setup.

[diamondD]

Ouch, he nailed you on that one.

The BCE isn't stopping your from doing it, laziness is. You'd rather sit here and bitch.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I like my neon...

It's modded I see....

I just sold my Nissan Sentra SER 'cause it was either sink a shitload of money into it or dump it....

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It's modded I see....

I just sold my Nissan Sentra SER 'cause it was either sink a shitload of money into it or dump it....

Hope you supported an American company with your latest transportation purchase. :)

[Nickdfresh]

Well it is an American (extremely used) car...

[diamondD]

I wanted to buy a gas guzzling Charger, but I'm gonna hold off for the redesign now. Unless I can get a used low miles one pretty cheap.

[Seshmeister]

Ok could someone explain this to me?

I think I'm fairly smart but I've listened to two interviews with representatives from Shell and I'm none the wiser.

Shell just posted the highest profits ever by a British company of $22 billion or something. They say that although they dig the stuff out the ground and then sell it to us, the price of oil at the pumps is nothing to do with them because it goes via the oil marketplace.

WTF?

Secondly I've known this for a long time but most people don't so bear it in mind the next time you see a TV commercial saying how one kind of gas is extra good and better than the others as maybe a tiger runs through a desert or some such shit. Gas station franchises buy their gas from the nearest most cost effective refinary. If you go to a Shell garage every chance it's Mobil gas you get.

Maybe privatisation is the way to go because these corporations are telling us it's raining while they're pissing on us.

Not to mention a lot of the huge profits are built on fucking up people in poor countries health and environment.

Of course we can whine all day about it with absolutely no effect because there is no stronger lobby than those fuckers.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
Greenspan was a great chairman for the Reserve. I don't know how anyone could bitch about his role there.

It was a bad day when we lost him and O'Conner together.

[DLR'sCock]

You put one of those bio-diesel converter kits on your car, you're good to go......hmmmm the VW diesel jetta is one that takes it......I think you can still use diesel if you want, or pick up your grease from your nearest wendy's....


I might want to try and find a 2004 diesel jetta....thsoe fuckers get 50 mpg as is....

[Nickdfresh]

I hear Chrysler is going to be the first American auto maker (in many years at least) to build a diesel passenger car, probably based on a Mercedes platform...

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Ok could someone explain this to me?

I think I'm fairly smart but I've listened to two interviews with representatives from Shell and I'm none the wiser.

Shell just posted the highest profits ever by a British company of $22 billion or something. They say that although they dig the stuff out the ground and then sell it to us, the price of oil at the pumps is nothing to do with them because it goes via the oil marketplace.

WTF?




When Katrina came along, oil/gas supplies went down, oil/gas prices on the market went up, demand stayed pretty much the same (the oil companies were overjoyed with that storm, I assure you), and profits went through the roof.

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

I'm talking globally here.

The companies profits are going up 30% a year. They are so powerful noone can mess with them even governments. Even the UK gets billions of dollars in tax returns from BP and Shell. If we fuck with them then they will just move.

It's a downside from capitalism I guess but don't kid yourself that it is any of us little people interests.

[Seshmeister]

Can I add a couple of factoids?

1) It now costs me over $100 to fill my tank with gas over here. I'm morally against SUV's but not on the consumption but on what they do to other vehicles in accidents so won't drive one. Like the starving in Africa this is a big government issue and Sean Penn or me cycling to work isn't going to sort it. I remember filling up a similar sized car in the US less than 10 years ago for $12. I can actually buy a small TV and DVD player at the supermarket for the same price as filling up a tank of gas. You think you got it bad just now? This is what's coming to you very soon.

2) Bush forgot to mention in his State of the Union thing that the US only sources 20% of her oil from the Middle East.

3) US power stations each year waste more oil than Japan uses.

4) The US has spent over $300 billion on the war in Iraq so far. Is it not possible that by spending $300 billion she could achieve a 20% increase in fuel efficiency? I'm not even talking about alternative sources here, there is an amazing amount of waste at the moment. $300 billion is serious fucking money by anyones standards and it is constantly increasing. That's also $300 billion going into US science and engineering putting you at the forefront of all of this. Then sell the technology to the rest of the world rather than bombing it.

5) If the US had done this would it not be cool for us all to be able to tell the medieval fuckup dictatorship in Saudi Arabia who spawned 9-11 as a backlash against their tyranny to go fuck themselves?

I would phone Roth's show but he would cut me off...:)


Cheers!

:gulp:

[Big Train]

Sesh,

I believe (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the price of crude is set by OPEC. The additives and bs. are added by the refiner (i.e. Shell) and that price is set by them.

[Big Train]

I still havent heard a response from Ford and I don't suspect I will. I wonder why Cindy Sheehan and the rest of the "no oil for war" people are driving.

They aren't helping the cause by consuming less oil, thereby allowing less american blood to be spilled for it.

They aren't helping the American worker, by buying American grown fuels.

They aren't putting these types of cleaner fuels into their "american" cars.

They aren't helping the envoirnment by polluting American air less.

Just thoughts...I wish they would, I need the stock to go up!!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Sesh,

I believe (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the price of crude is set by OPEC. The additives and bs. are added by the refiner (i.e. Shell) and that price is set by them.

The price of Crude is set by whichever OPEC nation is willing to undercut the production quotas generally agreed upon for the money...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Big Train
I still havent heard a response from Ford and I don't suspect I will. I wonder why Cindy Sheehan and the rest of the "no oil for war" people are driving.

They aren't helping the cause by consuming less oil, thereby allowing less american blood to be spilled for it.

They aren't helping the American worker, by buying American grown fuels.

They aren't putting these types of cleaner fuels into their "american" cars.

They aren't helping the envoirnment by polluting American air less.

Just thoughts...I wish they would, I need the stock to go up!!

Not that it's any of your damn business, but I can't afford a new vehicle at the moment, so I'm limited in what I can do, other than driving less. Which isn't really a hardship, since the weather's been complete shit here for the last 6 weeks, and God only knows when it will get better.

I'm filling up my gas tank probably every other month, if that's any indication.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Big Train
Sesh,

I believe (anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the price of crude is set by OPEC. The additives and bs. are added by the refiner (i.e. Shell) and that price is set by them.

I may be wrong but I don't think OPEC has the power in price setting that it had in the early 1970s.

What about my factoids?

Anyone got any thoughts on those?

[Seshmeister]

I'm not here to defend FORD one way or another but his consumption of gas is a silly moot point one way or another.

It's like saying don't eat and send the money to Africa. Even if he did it's completely pointless.

These are government issues.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
I still havent heard a response from Ford and I don't suspect I will. I wonder why Cindy Sheehan and the rest of the "no oil for war" people are driving.

Whatever they can afford since the oil, automotive, and tire companies effectively lobbied to shut down public transportation in this country in the late forties, and paid off city gov'ts to destroy mass-transit...

That's like saying BUSH is a Christian, why isn't he a pacifist?


They aren't helping the cause by consuming less oil, thereby allowing less american blood to be spilled for it.

No. But neither is the President that sent them there, is he? Guess what he didn't mention in his speech regarding energy. You got it. Consumption/conservation! And for a guy that is always chiming how nobody answers your brilliant free market points, why don't you answer SESH's point about investing $300-$400Billion into energy R&D rather than wars. Actually, the whole shebang is going to cost about $1-$2 Trillion, we couldn't have developed a better means of delivering energy and developed alternative sources for that bread? But the free market will react I suppose, after the fact, when it's too late. Because the key word is "react." The market is incapable of planning nor preparing, only reacting...

Just like the oil companies have no vested interest in researching, developing, and inventing in new forms of energy such as synthetic fuels, since they're making so much fucking money now in today's system of dino-crude...

But CHINA is just beginning to consume energy on our level, and it's only going to get worse...


They aren't helping the American worker, by buying American grown fuels.

Who carries those? I know of one local (Buffalo area) gas retailer (station chain) that advertises US derived gasoline (Kwik Fill --they get their gas from Pennsylvanian mom & pop oil co.'s., and NOCO uses Canadian based sources, which is as good in my eye)


They aren't putting these types of cleaner fuels into their "american" cars.

They aren't helping the environment by polluting American air less.

Just thoughts...I wish they would, I need the stock to go up!!

Hey man, I don't disagree, but the problem is that it's made to be largely unobtainable. you know Brazil makes gasoline entirely out of sugar-cane. Who doesn't believe me? It's absolutely true! But the Gov't needs to step in and take the lead here and to stop spending money finding ways to keep a large military presence in the Middle East, and discover ways to redirect through incentive, and force through punition when necessary. We need an energy policy that ends our need for fossil fuels. JIMMY CARTER stated as much in the 70's. He was destroyed by a coalition of big oil and a stogy congress on this point. But his basic argument is pay more now and free ourselves (with synthetic gasoline), or pay more later --with crude oil, of which the prices suddenly fell when Carter announced he was serious about pursuing expensive, but promising, synthetic fuels.

**Rant over, end of Nickdfresh transmission**

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
And for a guy that is always chiming how nobody answers your brilliant free market points, why don't you answer SESH's point about investing $300-$400Billion into energy R&D rather than wars. Actually, the whole shebang is going to cost about $1-$2 Trillion

Ok I'm going to make the United States of America an official binding online contract here.

GIVE ME 1 TRILLION DOLLARS AND I WILL INVENT DILITHIUM CRYSTALS!

Worst case scenario I get drunk and fuck it up!


http://earlyonemorning.com/graphics/scotty-thumb.jpg


At least 100 000 Iraqis(50% under 18), 2000 Americans and 100 British don't lose their lives.

GO FOR IT.

This post seems stupid and silly until you compare it to what we are actually doing...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Well, we could use your breath for ethanol...

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Whatever they can afford since the oil, automotive, and tire companies effectively lobbied to shut down public transportation in this country in the late forties, and paid off city gov'ts to destroy mass-transit...


And for a guy that is always chiming how nobody answers your brilliant free market points, why don't you answer SESH's point about investing $300-$400Billion into energy R&D rather than wars. Actually, the whole shebang is going to cost about $1-$2 Trillion, we couldn't have developed a better means of delivering energy and developed alternative sources for that bread? But the free market will react I suppose, after the fact, when it's too late. Because the key word is "react." The market is incapable of planning nor preparing, only reacting...

Just like the oil companies have no vested interest in researching, developing, and inventing in new forms of energy such as synthetic fuels, since they're making so much fucking money now in today's system of dino-crude...


Hey man, I don't disagree, but the problem is that it's made to be largely unobtainable. you know Brazil makes gasoline entirely out of sugar-cane. Who doesn't believe me? It's absolutely true! But the Gov't needs to step in and take the lead here and to stop spending money finding ways to keep a large military presence in the Middle East, and discover ways to redirect through incentive, and force through punition when necessary.

**Rant over, end of Nickdfresh transmission**

Nick, I'm choosing the direct and real route here. Government intervention means jack (abrahmoff) and you and I both know it. So for those who hate the government, hate the way things are, INDIVIDUAL demand is what will drive it.

I called out Ford, not for his own economic reasons, but for his ideals. Not all Libs are poor and I'm not callous enough to make that generalization. In fact, numbers would prove me wrong when you consider the premium and waitlist for a Toyota Prius. People DO want these vehicles.

All I'm saying here is that there is a CLEAR need and demand here. Here is an issue that everyone in the ballpark can agree on. US based alt. fuels help soldiers, farmers, consumers, the envoirnment and the stock market. It's not impossible, the amount of money to be made by those beating the oil barons is on a Microsoft level and the demand far outstrips what oil will be able to provide. It is inevitable.

The government already approved biofuels for fleets, which is the main hurdle. It is out of the gate. I say seek it out, USE it, Invest in it (make some money for those poor liberal children to go to liberal arts college) and feel the satisfaction of sticking it GW and pals.

To Sesh's point, I'm not sure international investment will speed things up. I believe it will simply cut up the pie for established interests and not progress any of the technology. Demand is driving this. Oil will not be able to keep up with demand as China becomes more online with demand. Simply won't. So drive the cottage industry with the people as much as possible. Eventually, alt. fuels companies will end up selling out and consolidating anyway, but if we did a good thing in this life, made it cleaner and made a lot of bucks in the process, I say we did well.

Rant reply over...

[Seshmeister]

To me personal responsibility on cars, lifestyles, recycling or anything else is completely irrelevant.

Total mirage of bullshit.

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO @ SESH!!!

GODDAMMIT MAN!!!

I read that fucker and blew up laffing....

500-year-old Scotch'll do it every time!!
:D

[Big Train]

Sesh,

It isn't personal responsibility, it's American capitalism, something Europe really has yet to get the hang of.

Government "investment" is a much bigger ball of bullshit that I can even begin to say.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
But the Gov't needs to step in and take the lead here and to stop spending money finding ways to keep a large military presence in the Middle East, and discover ways to redirect through incentive, and force through punition when necessary.

Only the free market will deliver that incentive. And what a fun time we'll have when it does!

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by FORD
These fucking pieces of shit are DESTROYING the entire economic structure of this nation. What the fuck would you suggest?

The post officeis the worst example of delivery service. Why would it make sense to give the government anything else to do when they can not even mail a letter.

[FORD]

Originally posted by 4moreyears
The post officeis the worst example of delivery service. Why would it make sense to give the government anything else to do when they can not even mail a letter.

And if the entire goddamned economy was tied to the price of postage stamps, you might have a valid argument.

Even then, there's always UPS. Or FedEx. Or e mail. You have options. Some more reasonably priced than others. But if you don't like how the Post Office does business, you don't have to deal with them.

That's not true when it comes to every car, truck, bus, train, boat and airplane running on petroleum products. Not a logical comparison at all.