Mannheim Steamroller

[Steve Savicki]

Does anyone like his new age style? The arrangements are much more intense than those other artists's just titled "new age".
I think Chip is a genius with computer synthesizers, at least in that time.

[binnie]

????????????

New Age?

Dude......

[EbDawson]

I prefer Trans-Siberian Orchestra. Meinhummer is a bit on the gay side.

[Steve Savicki]

Dawson,

What's a site that has some sound samples of them? I'm open-minded to listening.

[binnie]

The hills are alive, with the sound of music....

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Dawson,

What's a site that has some sound samples of them? I'm open-minded to listening.

The main T.S.O. page has samples...

If you've heard Savatage at all post '95, you've heard T.S.O., one casually blends into the other...

I could start an entire three page rant about Savatage/TSO, though, so...I'd better not go any further...

:D

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Dawson,

What's a site that has some sound samples of them? I'm open-minded to listening.

www.trans-siberian.com

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by bueno bob
I could start an entire three page rant about Savatage/TSO, though, so...I'd better not go any further...

:D

Rant away.

[binnie]

Don't get him started....

[Steve Savicki]

Bob, have, I believe, first 5 albums of Sav, so go ahead and start a thread on them.

[bueno bob]

I was a huge Savatage fan. I mean, one of the biggest, period. I came into them back in '87, for the "Hall of the Mountain King" album - rushed out and bought the entire back catalog within the next week (Sirens, Dungeons Are Calling, Power of the Night, Fight for the Rock). Loved all of it (except Fight for the Rock, which was a piece of shit).

By the time Gutter Ballet and Streets came out, I was convinced that Savatage was the best band that nobody had ever heard of. Period. Caught them on tour and they remain to this day the best live act that I've ever seen. Criss Oliva was a fucking GOD on guitar...he had a version of Eruption that would have made Edward fucking quit playing...Criss was like Eddie, Randy Rhoads and Yngwie all rolled up into one tight package and he was fucking dynamite....

Jon Oliva was the musicians musician, sure...but he was also the most energetic frontman I've ever seen. Especially for a guy his size...the dude SERIOUSLY kicked ass...great singer, fucking INCREDIBLE stage presence...Steve "Doc" Wacholz, the drummer, spent half of the concerts on his feet playing...I mean, in a concert where maybe 60 people showed up, they were absolutely on fire...

Edge of Thorns came out, added a whole new dimension with Zak Stevens as new vocalist...one of their best albums ever...

AND THAT IS WHERE IS SHOULD HAVE ENDED.

Criss was killed by a drunk driver in '93, and the band never recovered. Jon took over the whole project with longtime producer Paul O'Neill, and Paul always had his visions of Broadway musicals in his head and that's exactly what Savatage ended up turning into - a revolving door of musicians based around Jon Oliva and all of it masterminded by Paul O'Neill's visions of a heavy metal version of Meat Loaf.

Trans-Siberian Orchestra is an outstanding ensemble and they record some magnificent Christmas albums (the first two are the best - Beethoven's Last Night, their non-Christmas LP, is a mess and simply over-indulgant Broadway crap and The Lost Christmas Eve, their latest, is a very hit or miss affair).

Everything that's came out of Savatage/TSO since 1995 has been the same. Truthfully. I give Handful of Rain the exception, because...on it's own terms, it's a tribute to Criss, and a nice farewell. And it should have been a farewell to the band, because if Jon was the heart, Criss was the soul.

Since 1995 (and the side-band Trans-Siberian Orchestra's inception in 1996), there have been a slew of albums...Dead Winter Dead, Christmas Eve & Other Stories, The Wake of Magellan, The Christmas Attic, Beethoven's Last Night, Poets and Madmen, The Lost Christmas Eve...good? For what they are, yeah. But the TSO influence found it's way over to the Savatage sound and now they're both almost completely indistinguishable from each other.

Savatage used to be a kick ass metal act - one of the best of the '80's, as far as I'm concerned. Today Jon Oliva will be the first to tell you that Savatage isn't a metal band. Which raises the question: why bother?

All of those albums I mentioned feature:

1. Concepts/stories that are all VERY similarly themed;
2. Over-indulgant Broadway wank-offs;
3. Lack of real solos in favor of boring power chord progressions;
4. Over obsession about the innocence of childhood;
5. The same feel to all of the music (including recycling stuff album to album)

It's just become very cookie-cutterish.

Merchandising was always a joke with them. I tried to join the fan club back in '89, and all I got was a letter from Doc's mother encouraging me to call MTV and request their latest video. Paid a SHITLOAD of cash through the mail for T shirts and whatnot...never got a fucking thing...

That happened again in '98 when I joined the fan club. Spent $40.00 the first time out ordering shit (which I actually got, lo and behold). Sent them another $100+ on shit with my next order...only to find out that the fan club had shut it's doors because Savatage Inc. wanted to run a "proper" fan club.

I never did see anything I ordered (again), nor did I get my money back (again). The fan club never did reopen, either.

The worst of it, though, is the amount of outright LIES they've told their fans. And I was something like member 6 on the original Savatage message boards and stayed there for almost six years (before they finally shut it down on an apparently permanent basis).

Year after year after year, there'd be the same old promises - "Yeah, we're gonna get EVERYWHERE this year! HUGE U.S. touring! Yup! Get ready, cuz HERE WE COME!!", blah blah blah. Year after year, what did they do? They got out as far west as Chicago (MAYBE) before they abandoned the U.S. and went to Europe to play festivals.

And then they had the audacity to call it a "world tour". :rolleyes: Of course, there'd be the usual bullshit apologies at the end of the tour..."Oh, we're sorry we didn't get everywhere this time - see ya NEXT year! Count on it!"...which was, of course, just more bullshit.

I mean, after so many years of hearing the same old fucking thing over and over again, you eventually just get tired of it.

Let me tell you something. I eventually got so fucking fed up with it, me and several of my friends actually RAISED THE MONEY for them to come out to Portland and play. We had a venue that was totally willing to book them. We had more than enough cash for whatever touring expenses they needed (gas, food, whatever), here and back. I had lodging totally comped for them. We even had a fairly sizable amount raised for them to just play (in addition to whatever the take from ticket sales would be).

All they had to do...was do it.

So I e-mailed all of this to the band THEMSELVES, told them about all of the ducks we'd put in a row for them...because they hadn't played anywhere even remotely close to Portland since '91...

What I got back from them was this:

"The tour is over. But we'll SEE YA NEXT YEAR!!"(c) :rolleyes:

Not even so much as a fucking "thank you" for the effort. Savatage was always a very thankful band to it's fans, but towards the end of their run all they seemed to care about was the fan base in New York and Florida...even on the message boards whenever something official was said, that was blisteringly apparent. Moreover, with the success (i.e. $$$$) that Trans-Siberian Orchestra was pulling in, anything Savatage related took less and less priority.

The last official Savatage album came out in 2001. Although they've never officially said they split up, they've pulled a Van Halen vanishing act...last word was that nothing from Savatage was going to happen until late 2007 at the earliest...which to me means "We split the fuck up because TSO makes more money, so don't hold your breath."

In 2001, before the so-called "U.S. tour" (and I'm sorry, a bus trip down the east coast does NOT equate to being a U.S. tour no matter how hard they try to sell it as such), they hired a new vocalist (Damond Jiniya) who they talked all up in sixteen different kinds of ways...and a new guitarist in Jack Frost (because Al Pitrelli had bailed on the band to join Megadeth without warning...and I'll give you three good gue$$e$ why and the fir$t two don't count).

They announced after this tour that Damond and Jack were the new permanent members. VERY shortly later, Megadeth "splits up" and Al Pitrelli finds himself without a job. The day after that and Jack Frost has been fired and Al Pitrelli's back in Savatage...seriously...I don't care how you spin it (and both Savatage and Jack's band Seven Witches did spin it), but that's fucking shitty thing to do to somebody who REALLY wanted to be there (and to a guy like Al Pitrelli, playing guitar in a band is just a job to him...he has no true loyalty to anyone and has a proven track record of jumping ship for better opportunities at the drop of a hat...he was a hired gun in Savatage and didn't even know who in the fuck they were back in '95...).

For all the talk of what a great singer Damond Jiniya is supposed to be, nobody's ever heard him to this day (unless you happened to live on the east coast or Europe in 2001 and caught them on their sorry excuse for a tour).

They could very easily release an official live album from the last tour or something, just to fill in the gaps for the fans - but they don't. They could mix, master and release some unreleased shit out of their vaults (and trust me, their vaults are EXTENSIVE) - but they don't. Even a stupid best of set would be something - but they don't.

I just look back at the time I spent as a fan of the band between '87 and '94 and have really great memories of them. Anything after '95 as a fan fills me with a sense of loss, regret and leaves me with a very bitter taste in my mouth. Based on the history, I truly believe that Paul O'Neill was eventually given too much control, Jon Oliva quit caring and the whole thing was ran into the ground.

Quite frankly, it's a fucking shame.

Savatage 1983-1993 = quite possibly the most underrated heavy metal band of all time....

Savatage 1995-2001 = a fucking joke on wheels....

OK, rant mode off.

You asked for it... :)

[binnie]

LOL!

And breathe......

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by binnie
LOL!

And breathe......

You know, I'll always love 'em, honestly...but one of these days I'm going to have to beat the shit out of Savatage (the band), just on principle...

[binnie]

I feel that way about a lot of bands actually....

[bueno bob]

Metallica...Van Halen...Savatage...Kiss...The Misfits...Ozzy...

Man, I've got a lot of asses to put my feet up.

[binnie]

Megadeth (well Mustaine really)

Skid Row

RHCP

Down

Aerosmith.......

i could go on...

[bueno bob]

Aerosmith for damn sure...I'll second that...

[bueno bob]

(Hired) Guns 'n' Posers...Axl Pose, specifically...

:D

[binnie]

Yep G'N'R, I'd forgotten them...

[binnie]

Rush (they don't tour the UK enough)

[Steve Savicki]

Yeah, "red light paradise", the last track, is the only memorable one off of "fight."

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Yeah, "red light paradise", the last track, is the only memorable one off of "fight."

You and I have something we agree on!

It's amazing!!

[binnie]

Strange things are happening today!

[bueno bob]

Next thing you know, Steve'll be supporting all things Sheep Pen!

Ha!

[binnie]

It'd be like a conversion!

[Steve Savicki]

Bob,

Sheep Pen differences aside, sorry to hear you got screwed over by both paying and raising money.

Once you screw over your fans, you're dust in the wind. Dave Mustaine said that I believe back when I was collecting Metal Edge magazines during Sammy's '96 departure. Megadeth were promoting their latest album at the time and they were interviewed.

[MAX]

Is this thread for fucking real? :eek:

Don't they only make that synth Christmas music that gets on my fucking nerves?

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by bueno bob

Trans-Siberian Orchestra is an outstanding ensemble and they record some magnificent Christmas albums (the first two are the best - Beethoven's Last Night, their non-Christmas LP, is a mess and simply over-indulgant Broadway crap and The Lost Christmas Eve, their latest, is a very hit or miss affair).



I actually like BLN. It's sure as hell isn't metal or even hard rock. Once you get past that and follow the story line there are some good singers and numbers there.

Lost Christmas Eve is more miss than hit though.

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by bueno bob [B]

Trans-Siberian Orchestra is an outstanding ensemble and they record some magnificent Christmas albums (the first two are the best - Beethoven's Last Night, their non-Christmas LP, is a mess and simply over-indulgant Broadway crap and The Lost Christmas Eve, their latest, is a very hit or miss affair).

[B]

I actually like BLN. It's sure as hell isn't metal or even hard rock. Once you get past that and follow the story line there are some good singers and numbers there.

Lost Christmas Eve is more miss than hit though.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Steve Savicki
Bob,

Sheep Pen differences aside, sorry to hear you got screwed over by both paying and raising money.

Once you screw over your fans, you're dust in the wind. Dave Mustaine said that I believe back when I was collecting Metal Edge magazines during Sammy's '96 departure. Megadeth were promoting their latest album at the time and they were interviewed.

It's true, and you're very right (Sheep Pen differences aside).

I bled that band for YEARS and all I got for my years of work for them was a big "Fuck you". It absolutely did not sit well with me. Anything Savatage related since then (Circle II Circle, Chris Caffery, Jon Oliva's Pain, Trans-Siberian Orchestra) that's been released, I've downloaded for free. I refuse to give them any more than what I've already given.

All of the merchandise I tracked down over the years, I sold in one binge on ebay - that, actually, was like a release of it all. Very symbolic for me letting go of it. I won't buy anything else from them, either.

The reason Savatage can't get arrested in the U.S. is because they basically gave up on the U.S. in the mid '90's. They had some good steam going with Edge of Thorns (at long last) and were getting some good radio play...good opening slots...headlining was alright. I realize Criss' death really did a lot to derail that, but...in a nutshell, at the end of it all, the excuses just finally wore thin and ran out.

Oh well... :rolleyes:

Savatage from 1995 and up has NOTHING to do with what Savatage was supposed to be all about and it's a bastardization of the name and the memory. I wholeheartedly refuse to support it.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by EbDawson
I actually like BLN. It's sure as hell isn't metal or even hard rock. Once you get past that and follow the story line there are some good singers and numbers there.

Lost Christmas Eve is more miss than hit though.

It's a bit too Broadway for me...the songs with the female vocal leads (I'll Keep Your Secrets, Dreams of Candlelight and...uh...whatever the other one was) were pretty good. Zak Steven's song (The Dark) is OK, but absolutely indistinguishable from Savatage...

Apparently TSO is working on a new album called Night Castle or some such thing...doesn't sound Christmas related...

[binnie]

Spanking!