GOP Again Screws Working People, Lobbies for Rich [Archive]

Nickdfresh

07-29-2006, 11:04 AM

House approves minimum wage increase
GOP couples boost with estate tax cut, but problems foreseen in Senate
The Associated Press

Updated: 2:23 a.m. ET July 29, 2006

WASHINGTON - Republicans muscled the first minimum wage increase in a decade through the House early Saturday after pairing it with a cut in inheritance taxes on multimillion-dollar estates.

Combining the two issues provoked protests from Democrats and was sure to cause problems in the Senate, where the minimum wage initiative was likely to die at the hands of Democrats opposed to the costly estate tax cuts. The Senate is expected to take up the legislation next week.

Still, GOP leaders saw combining the wage and tax issues as their best chance for getting permanent cuts to the estate tax, a top GOP priority fueled by intense lobbying by farmers, small business owners and super-wealthy families such as the Waltons, heirs to the Wal-Mart fortune.

“This is the best shot we’ve got; we’re going to take it,” said House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio. The unusual packaging also soothed conservatives angry about raising the minimum wage over opposition by GOP business allies.

The House passed the bill 230-180 before leaving for a five-week recess.

Dems in Senate vow to kill bill
Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., vowed Democrats would kill the hybrid bill, along with its 10-year, $300 billion-plus cost.

“The Senate has rejected fiscally irresponsible estate tax giveaways before and will reject them again,” Reid said. “Blackmailing working families will not change that outcome.”

Republicans countered that Democrats opposed the bill to keep the issue alive for the November elections.

But Republicans also reveled in putting moderate Democrats in the uncomfortable position of voting against both the minimum wage increase and the estate tax cut — and an accompanying bipartisan package of popular tax breaks, including a research and development credit for businesses and deductions for college tuition and state sales taxes.

The GOP package would increase the wage from $5.15 to $7.25 per hour, phased in over the next three years.

Under current law, the estate tax is phased out completely by 2010, but jumps back to 55 percent on estates larger than $1 million in 2011.

The bill passed Saturday would exempt $5 million of an individual’s estate, and $10 million of a couple’s, from estate taxes by 2015. Estates worth up to $25 million would be taxed at capital gains rates, currently 15 percent and scheduled to rise to 20 percent. Tax rates on the remainder of larger estates would fall to 30 percent by 2015.

The maneuver was aimed at defusing the minimum wage increase as a campaign issue for Democrats while using the popularity of the increase to achieve the Republican Party’s longtime goal of permanently cutting estate taxes.

That left Democrats fuming.

“Just think of what it is to have a bill that says to minimum wage workers, ‘We’ll raise your minimum wage but only if we can give an estate tax cut to the 7,500 wealthiest families in America,”’ said Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.

Besides the 10-year, $268 billion cut to the estate tax, the measure contains $38 billion in other tax cuts that enjoy widespread backing, such as the research-and-development tax credit.

As part of the plan, Congress would also pass a bill shoring up the U.S. pension system. That bill easily passed the House Friday night and seemed more likely to succeed in the Senate than the minimum wage-estate tax plan.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., was a driving force behind the plan, overruling Finance Committee Chairman Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, who wanted to couple the business tax breaks with the pension overhaul bill.

The No. 2 Democrat in the House, Steny Hoyer of Maryland, said the move by GOP leaders — who actually oppose the minimum wage increase — was a cynical exercise to give political cover to GOP moderates while ensuring the wage increase does not become law.

“They want on the one hand to appear to be doing something and on the other make sure that it doesn’t happen,” Hoyer said.

Republicans countered that it was only fair to business interests opposed to the wage to reward them with estate tax relief and other tax cuts. And they said adding the estate tax was the only way to get their Senate GOP counterparts — who rejected a minimum wage increase just last month — to vote for it.

“The Republicans in the Senate have twice defeated this,” said Steve LaTourette, R-Ohio. “You know what? If the Senate wants the estate tax and the (tax cut) extenders, they’ve to give us the minimum wage. That’s how it’s going to become law.”

Muscling through
LaTourette organized a drive by almost 50 rank-and-file Republican lawmakers to persuade House leaders to schedule the wage measure for debate. Democrats have been hammering away on the minimum wage issue and have public opinion behind them.

It was during the campaign year of 1996 that Congress last voted to increase the minimum wage. A person working 40 hours per week at minimum wage makes $10,700, which is below the poverty line for workers with families.

Inflation has eroded the minimum wage’s buying power to the lowest level in about 50 years. Lawmakers have won cost-of-living wage increases totaling about $35,000 for themselves over the last 10 years.

GOP lawmakers feared being pounded with 30-second campaign ads over the August recess that would tie Congress’ upcoming $3,300 pay increase with Republicans’ refusal to raise the minimum wage.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14074153/

FORD

07-29-2006, 11:39 AM

As I indicated in another thread, this is absolutely fucking disgusting.

A minimum wage increase is LONG OVERDUE in this country. Since that Chimp was installed in the White House, gas has nearly tripled in price, food and utility costs have doubled and health care costs have risen exponentially. And those on minimum wage are the very ones who can't afford all of the above even under normal circumstances.

To tie a minumum wage increase to yet ANOTHER reward to the useless leeches of society like Paris Hilton and Chimpy himself is nothing short of CRIMINAL.

BTW, in case you haven't heard, Chimp also laid off pretty much an entire division of the IRS. That would be the guys who investigate estate tax fraud.

These corporatist cocksuckers are trying to create a permanent "ruling class" of MORONS.

stringfelowhawk

07-29-2006, 11:49 AM

HERE, HERE AND THE SOUND OF APPLAUSE!

Big Train

07-29-2006, 01:44 PM

As usual, I disagree. Estate taxes are useless, unneccsary taxes the government plies on to the dead just to get their grubby hands on it.

costly to who? the government leeches who already have taxed the money four or five times?

The estate part of this bill neither helps nor hurts the poor people, as they don't have the money , it doesn't apply. It's dishonest to say it does.

The ones who are going to kill this bill are the Dems because they cant get their paws on more free money.

Now, I know the Dems portray themselves as champions of the poor, but who are they real hurting by killing this bill? EXACTLY.

What nice people they are..

Nickdfresh

07-29-2006, 01:55 PM

Estate taxes are useless? Well, isn't that money "usless" to the dead?

DrMaddVibe

07-29-2006, 02:52 PM

I just have to laugh at the knuckleheads crying foul about this.

They're the same ones that don't have a pot to piss in and they NEVER will!

Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and your O.K.
Money it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team
Money get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet
Money it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're
giving none away

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right. That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2. He was asking
why he wasn't coming up on freely, after I was yelling and
screaming and telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out"

CRY ME A FUCKIN' RIVER POORBOYS!!!!!

Kristy

07-29-2006, 03:04 PM

"Let 'em eat cake!" After all, $5.15/hr for a family of 3 (or 4) is plenty. As long as they don't use any utilities, buy new clothes, books or any school supplies for Bush's bullshit 'no child left behind' propaganda horseshit, drive a car to their minimun-wage job (much less afford the insurance), go out to a movie, resturant, etc.

What's that? You cut finding for student loans, George? Yeah, what's a higher education to you, fuckwit when you never read a book in your life that didn't contain pop-ups? Who needs all 'dat fancy educusion an buuk learnin' when we have a Blockbuster and Subway resturant on every corner? Right next to the Wal-Mart and "Christian" church, of course.

Hey, we have it easy Not like those drone workers in China who make the crap we buy to place in our homes (oh wait, on 5.15/hr, a homeowner?) who only make an average of $4/day. I'm sorry Bush, you're right, the coporations and multi-nationalists who obviously have our best interest in heart. Paying people a decent wage for what they work is an outdated concept anyway.

We'll do what you think is best: rape us for greed and you keep on getting fat on the green and we keep on getting poor on the dirt.

FORD

07-29-2006, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Big Train
As usual, I disagree. Estate taxes are useless, unneccsary taxes the government plies on to the dead just to get their grubby hands on it.

costly to who? the government leeches who already have taxed the money four or five times?

The estate part of this bill neither helps nor hurts the poor people, as they don't have the money , it doesn't apply. It's dishonest to say it does.

The ones who are going to kill this bill are the Dems because they cant get their paws on more free money.

Now, I know the Dems portray themselves as champions of the poor, but who are they real hurting by killing this bill? EXACTLY.

What nice people they are..

Answer this question honestly.....

Do you REALLY believe that someone like Paris Hilton or Chimpy should be allowed to coast through life without ever earning a living, just because their grandparents made money.

I can tell you how Bill Gates and Warren Buffett answered that question. But what do YOU say?

BigBadBrian

07-29-2006, 05:41 PM

BigBadBrian

07-29-2006, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Kristy
"Let 'em eat cake!" After all, $5.15/hr for a family of 3 (or 4) is plenty. As long as they don't use any utilities, buy new clothes, books or any school supplies for Bush's bullshit 'no child left behind' propaganda horseshit, drive a car to their minimun-wage job (much less afford the insurance), go out to a movie, resturant, etc.

Sucks to be you, huh?

:cool:

Kristy

07-29-2006, 05:57 PM

Well we can't all ive in our parents basement forever like you.

BigBadBrian

07-29-2006, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by Kristy
Well we can't all ive in our parents basement forever like you.

:D

You're my new pet. Now heel.

:cool:

Kristy

07-29-2006, 08:04 PM

I'm not your anything, fuckwit.

DR CHIP

07-29-2006, 08:50 PM

Nickdfresh

07-29-2006, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I just have to laugh at the knuckleheads crying foul about this.

They're the same ones that don't have a pot to piss in and they NEVER will!

Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and your O.K.
Money it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team
Money get back
I'm all right Jack keep your hands off my stack.
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bullshit
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class traveling set
And I think I need a Lear jet
Money it's a crime
Share it fairly but don't take a slice of my pie
Money so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're
giving none away

"HuHuh! I was in the right!"
"Yes, absolutely in the right!"
"I certainly was in the right!"
"You was definitely in the right. That geezer was cruising for a bruising!"
"Yeah!"
"Why does anyone do anything?"
"I don't know, I was really drunk at the time!"
"I was just telling him, he couldn't get into number 2. He was asking
why he wasn't coming up on freely, after I was yelling and
screaming and telling him why he wasn't coming up on freely.
It came as a heavy blow, but we sorted the matter out"

CRY ME A FUCKIN' RIVER POORBOYS!!!!!

Well, they should take it like a good bitch, like you do, Mrs.DoucheVibe...

And you totally don't get that song, irony boy....

Nickdfresh

07-29-2006, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Sucks to be you, huh?

:cool:

How're the college courses going Mr. Big Bucks?

DrMaddVibe

07-29-2006, 11:51 PM

Cry me a river poor nicker00!

Irony? Fuck you...LOL!!!!!!!!

Everybody's lining up to sing a song about your loser life?

Nickdfresh

07-29-2006, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Cry me a river poor nicker00!

Sorry, did I hurt your feelings bitchypoo?

Irony? Fuck you...LOL!!!!!!!!

Yeah, I know you fucked a boy named Irony a while ago...

DrMaddVibe

07-29-2006, 11:56 PM

Its fun to watch you squirm.

Sucks to be you, nicker00.

Penny for your thoughts...wtf, I feel sorry for you here's a buck go buy a cheeseburger.

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:02 AM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Its fun to watch you squirm.

Sucks to be you, nicker00

Penny for your thoughts...wtf, I feel sorry for you here's a buck go buy a cheeseburger.

LOL Ms.GayVibe, avid reality show watcher in the white trash TV demographic, is offering me a buck? Sorry, I don't need your hard earned blow job money princess assfuck...

Tell your wife she needs less cheeseburgers, she's fat enough!

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 12:04 AM

That's it?

You're weak, pathetic and poor.

You don't even make me laugh anymore.

Matter of fact you bore me.

Most poor people bore me too.

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
That's it?

You're weak, pathetic and poor.

You don't even make me laugh anymore.

Matter of fact you bore me.

That's because you're stupid and uneducated...

Most poor people bore me too.

You must be lonely in the trailer park then retard...

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 12:13 AM

Don't strain yourself.

Just think in less than one month you'll be back to pouring sawdust on kiddie puke.

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:16 AM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Don't strain yourself.

Just think in less than one month you'll be back to pouring sawdust on kiddie puke.

You sound jealous Ms.FuckingClayAikensAssVibe...

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 12:20 AM

Of you?

Now THAT is funny!

blueturk

07-30-2006, 12:22 AM

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:27 AM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Of you?

Now THAT is funny!

LOL Ms.GayVibe wants to leave DVD seasons one and two of American Idol to his seed, he's really pissed about this estate tax thing!

BigBadBrian

07-30-2006, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Kristy
I'm not your anything, fuckwit.

Yes....you are. ;)

BigBadBrian

07-30-2006, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
How're the college courses going Mr. Big Bucks?

Great!

I'm about 2/3 of the way through with completing my MBA.

It would go quicker, but I'm also getting my own business off the ground while also working and going to school.

Thanks for the inquiry.

:)

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 08:28 AM

The American Dream...alive and well.

Of course nicker00 is bitter. He has to pick up sawdust and vomit.

BigBadBrian

07-30-2006, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by DR CHIP

The minimum wage being raised helps absolutely nobody...it actually hurts many because they will be laid off...

That's true.

I don't really have any objection to the minimum wage being raised, however, people should really determine what happens when a company's COGS goes up, as will happen when the minimum wage is increased.

Many companies will compensate the bottom line accordingly.

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by DR CHIP
...
The minimum wage being raised helps absolutely nobody...it actually hurts many because they will be laid off...

You have any data to support that claim? 'Cause that argument is very discredited, especially since the last minimum wage hike...

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
The American Dream...alive and well.

Of course nicker00 is bitter. He has to pick up sawdust and vomit.

LOL I'm "bitter?" What's your American dream? To insult your intellectual superiors on a Sunday afternoon because you're not very smart, educated, and evidently can't play bass very well?

Congradulations!

Nothing reeks of success more than a 40-something unable to comprehend basic irony, satire, or anything that divulges from his extremist partisan Republican propeganda...

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
LOL I'm "bitter?" What's your American dream? To insult your intellectual superiors on a Sunday afternoon because you're not very smart, educated, and evidently can't play bass very well?

Congradulations!

Nothing reeks of success more than a 40-something unable to comprehend basic irony, satire, or anything that divulges from his extremist partisan Republican propeganda...

"intellectual superiors "???

Bitch, if you're going to try to play that hand at least make sure you spell every word correctly!

LOL!!!

Clean up in the cafeteria...ya cunt!

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
"intellectual superiors "???

Bitch, if you're going to try to play that hand at least make sure you spell every word correctly!

LOL!!!

Clean up in the cafeteria...ya cunt!

Sorry, I don't have my Firefox spellcheck on this 'puter my little grammar bitch, you know, the one you got cocky after installing...

Again, you've nothing to offer you fucking parroting, sock puppet...

Polly's got his panties in a wad....

Why would I clean the cafeteria? isn't that your hair-lipped wife's job?

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 04:36 PM

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Sorry, I don't have my Firefox spellcheck on this 'puter my little grammar bitch, you know, the one you got cocky after installing...

Again, you've nothing to offer you fucking parroting, sock puppet...

Polly's got his panties in a wad....

Why would I clean the cafeteria? isn't that your hair-lipped wife's job?

HAHAHAHAAA!!

Squirm BITCH!!!

You're sooooooooooooooooooo fucking predictible!

PS: When you raise the minimum wage...businesses roll it into the price of their goods!

POORBOY, YOU'RE GETTING A RAISE!

FORD

07-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Bottom line is this is NOT even a partisan issue. The reverse-Robin Hood approach to economics of this Fraudministration (steal from the poor and give to the rich) is bad for the entire country.

Not Democrats. Not Republicans. Everybody. Your gas bill. Your health care costs. Your 31% interest credit card. It's all the same fucking thing.

Big Train

07-30-2006, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Answer this question honestly.....

Do you REALLY believe that someone like Paris Hilton or Chimpy should be allowed to coast through life without ever earning a living, just because their grandparents made money.

I can tell you how Bill Gates and Warren Buffett answered that question. But what do YOU say?

What a communist idea!! What do I say? 1000% agree that they have the right not to work, if that is what their parents want. God willing, if I have the money, I don't want my kids to have to struggle like I did. Is that not the American Dream (maybe not Hillary's version)?

Ford, let's stop for a second and focus on more than the big sexy fortunes. Read the article again. Farmers and small business owners are some of the biggest lobbies for this bill. Taxing assests like farm equipment and assests of a small shop, plus whatever meager amount of cash the company has can literally put it under, if not handicap it severly. Those kids WILL be working the rest of their lives, just to get back to where they started.

If a guy is lucky enough to do well enough to pass something on to his children, the government should have no fucking part of that transaction. They will be getting their cut soon enough.

The coasting through life assumption is true, but they will pay into the system Those kids who coast spend money, buy real estate and invest in public companies , all which create the relevant taxes on the money (sales, captial gains, income tax etc..).

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
HAHAHAHAAA!!

Squirm BITCH!!!

You're sooooooooooooooooooo fucking predictible!

PS: When you raise the minimum wage...businesses roll it into the price of their goods!

POORBOY, YOU'RE GETTING A RAISE!

Um, me a poorboy? I don't think so stupid....

Nice job at repeating yourself with the 'squirm'
fantasies...

You must have had a great weekend online, ignoring the little AssVibes and not hitting your fat wife...

Nickdfresh

07-30-2006, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Big Train
What a communist idea!! What do I say? 1000% agree that they have the right not to work, if that is what their parents want. God willing, if I have the money, I don't want my kids to have to struggle like I did. Is that not the American Dream (maybe not Hillary's version)?

Ford, let's stop for a second and focus on more than the big sexy fortunes. Read the article again. Farmers and small business owners are some of the biggest lobbies for this bill. Taxing assests like farm equipment and assests of a small shop, plus whatever meager amount of cash the company has can literally put it under, if not handicap it severly. Those kids WILL be working the rest of their lives, just to get back to where they started.

If a guy is lucky enough to do well enough to pass something on to his children, the government should have no fucking part of that transaction. They will be getting their cut soon enough.

The coasting through life assumption is true, but they will pay into the system Those kids who coast spend money, buy real estate and invest in public companies , all which create the relevant taxes on the money (sales, captial gains, income tax etc..).

How is it a "communist idea?" It's a meritocracy actually. Everyone would have to be self-made...

FORD

07-30-2006, 09:11 PM

Exactly. Teddy Roosevelt was all for the estate tax, and he was rich. (And Republican)

And as I indicated before, the #1 and #2 richest men in this world, Bill Gates and Warren Buffett have no intention of leaving their "empires" to their children. They're doing the right thing now and giving back to the community now, and God bless them for doing so. Regardless of how I might feel about Micro$oft on any typical day.

DrMaddVibe

07-30-2006, 10:03 PM

They're both leaving their kids VERY well off.

Don't even play like they're leaving them with NOTHING.

Those with the most, give the most.

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 10:35 AM

How old are some of you people?
This thread has all the maturity of a typical recess at the local elementary school.

First of all, the estate tax only effects assests that total $1 Million or more, so yes, this is a cut that only effects AND benefits the rich.

But attaching that to a minimum wage bill in the first place does nothing but ensure it will fail and people who work their ass off for minimum wage (which i have never worked for by the way) continue to get screwed.

This whole situation is nothing more than playing election year politics.
Neither side has any interest in raising the minimum wage and neither side is serious about killing the estate tax. (except fat cat Republicans).
What i mean by that is that this bill was designed to fail, period.

The Republicans have done nothing but set the Democrats up to look like they don't give a shit about the minimum wage earners in this country. and they will take the bait and swallow it, they have to, or the Republicans win another round of pandering to the wealthy.

The average American doesn't understand that you have to be wealthy in order for an estate to be taxed.
And it doesn't tax the deceased, it taxes the beneficiaries of those assets. it is basically a tax for transferring those inherited funds so technically, it isn't taxed twice.
It's income, therefore it can legally be taxed at the time of transfer.

The only way for this to backfire on the Republicans is for the Democrats to pass it, but that won't happen as i've already stated because it hands the Republicans a huge victory...and that ain't gonna happen.

It would be a good way to win back some seats, but at this point they don't really need to do that because the Republicans are already between a rock and a hard place.

It's a political game, period.

So you see, any debate on this bill at all among the voters is a waste of time.

But what people should really be looking at is the fact that our government manipulates people to achieve self serving goals.
Both sides do it, both sides should be held accountable for their dishonesty towards the voters.

I mean, c'mon, do you think the Republicans were serious about raising the wages?
If they were this estate bullshit wouldn't even have been included in the bill.

Wake the fuck up, people!

If the Democrats are smart they will turn this around on the Republicans and expose the game for what it is, a game to achieve an objective either way.

If the bill passes, the Republicans win and their rich buddies get a tax cut.
If the bill fails, the Republicans win by having ammo against the Dems come election day.

Either way, the Democrats lose and the only way to minimize the loss is to kill the bill.

It never was about raising the minimum wage, NEVER.
The voters need to be educated on the details of the estate tax so they know the truth and can see what really motivated this bill and take that into consideration when election day rolls around.

If the Dems can accomplish this task they will win back seats and in '08 they will win back the White House, guarenteed.

The question is, will they drop the ball by getting greedy as usual?

diamondD

07-31-2006, 11:49 AM

I fail to see FORD's logic in where it's our right to tell Paris Hilton that she should have to work in spite of her parents' money and that it should go to benefit others instead of her. That's Utopian bullshit. It's my money, I'll do what I damn well please with it without someone else deciding who should benefit from it.

And I don't see how it isn't "taxing twice" when the income was taxed in the first place. So the governmen took their share the first time around (and likely wasted it) and now it wants to tax it again just because it's changed hands in the family?

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by diamondD
I fail to see FORD's logic in where it's our right to tell Paris Hilton that she should have to work in spite of her parents' money and that it should go to benefit others instead of her. That's Utopian bullshit. It's my money, I'll do what I damn well please with it without someone else deciding who should benefit from it.

And I don't see how it isn't "taxing twice" when the income was taxed in the first place. So the governmen took their share the first time around (and likely wasted it) and now it wants to tax it again just because it's changed hands in the family?

Ford and the jealous Liberal's are way off base on this issue. they just believe that when someone dies the money becomes Uncle Sam's.
there is absolutely NO LOGIC to their position other than greed and contempt for the rich.

It's really just that simple, but what do you expect from people who's basic platform is to support entitlements.

Estate Tax only applies to the wealthiest 2% anyway.

But i was off on my previous post. the Estate Tax limit has actually been raised to $2 Million for 2006 to 2008.

But it isn't taxing the deceased, they already paid their tax on it. they are taxing the recipients who have not been taxed on it.
It isn't right in my opinion, but it does make sense based on current income tax laws.

It's just like when someone hits the Super Lotto, those funds are heavily taxed before you get your winnings because it is taxable income.
Your not really out anything because it is money you wouldn't have otherwise and you still benefit substantially because the limits required to even file an estate tax return is so high.

I am against an estate tax, but i'm more pissed at how this bill was packaged because it groups a benefit for people who don't really need a tax cut with something the people in lower income jobs actually need and deserve.

It sacrifices the needs of the many for the benefit of the very few.

In my mind, it is anything but Conservative, it's pandering to the rich, yet again.

I honestly don't understand how Bush has any support at all at this point.
A minimum wage raise should be a standalone bill without any pork at all.
If our leaders even gave a shit about those who actually work for a living they wouldn't have done this bill like that.

They insured it's failure while writing it, period.

But, I won't blame the Democrats for it, it won't be their fault.
Now whether that message even gets across to the voters before election day is the key as to if it backfires on the Repub's or not.

But in the end, it's still the people that get screwed in order for Republicans to grab for more power and help their buddies with fat wallets.

I see an opportunity here for the Democrats to hit this one out of the park.
It's a game by the Republicans to cut even more taxes for the rich while doing it at the expense of the poor, that's not MY idea of a Consevative Republican Platform.

I hope this issue is utilized by the Democrats to bring down the Republicans. all it takes is going across the country and educating the people on the details of how an estate tax works, who it applies to, and WHY it was packaged in with a minimum wage increase.

And i'll go one step further here and say that any registered republican voter that doesn't see this as a shot across your finacial bow, you're an idiot who is well deserving of the wool covering your eyes.

I'll say it again, I am against an estate tax, but i am more for the wage earner in this country than I am for an additional tax cut for the wealthiest 2%.
The fact that people are going to continue to suffer with an inadequate wage because Republicans wanted to play a game they knew would contribute to that suffering is completely unaceptable and borders on criminal.

Come November I may just vote straight Democrat to teach those assholes a valuable lesson in morality.

The Republicans dug their own grave with this bill.
I'll help push them into it because what they did was totally wrong and shits on the people who bust their ass to keep this economy running.

FUCK 'EM!

FORD

07-31-2006, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by Cathedral
Ford and the jealous Liberal's are way off base on this issue. they just believe that when someone dies the money becomes Uncle Sam's.
there is absolutely NO LOGIC to their position other than greed and contempt for the rich.

It's really just that simple

No it isn't.

There's a difference between someone who is rich because they did something to earn their money, and someone who inherited it.

Look at the mess this country is in right now, financially and otherwise. Did you ever consider that a major part of the reason for that, is that the chimp supposedly in charge doesn't have the slightest concept in his feeble mind what it is like to struggle to meet monthly bills. Or even to work a job 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week - if you're lucky.

Poppy Bush got a lot of flak in 1992 for not knowing how a supermarket scanner works, and his dumbass son is even more clueless than that.

How many generations of these financial vampires can this country tolerate?? Chimpy is literally destroying this country through his own ignorance. Not because he's rich, but because he's third generation idle rich. From Nazi blood money, no less.

I am against an estate tax, but i'm more pissed at how this bill was packaged because it groups a benefit for people who don't really need a tax cut with something the people in lower income jobs actually need and deserve.

It sacrifices the needs of the many for the benefit of the very few.

http://www.newstrekker.com/series_tos/pic_bios/spock.jpg

A very logical statement.

I hope this issue is utilized by the Democrats to bring down the Republicans. all it takes is going across the country and educating the people on the details of how an estate tax works, who it applies to, and WHY it was packaged in with a minimum wage increase.

And i'll go one step further here and say that any registered republican voter that doesn't see this as a shot across your finacial bow, you're an idiot who is well deserving of the wool covering your eyes.

I'll say it again, I am against an estate tax, but i am more for the wage earner in this country than I am for an additional tax cut for the wealthiest 2%.
The fact that people are going to continue to suffer with an inadequate wage because Republicans wanted to play a game they knew would contribute to that suffering is completely unaceptable and borders on criminal.

Come November I may just vote straight Democrat to teach those assholes a valuable lesson in morality.

The Republicans dug their own grave with this bill.
I'll help push them into it because what they did was totally wrong and shits on the people who bust their ass to keep this economy running.

FUCK 'EM!

Harry Reid doesn't think it will be a problem to kill this ridiculous bill, but God only knows what the usual DLC suspects will do. I'm hoping they can table it.

DrMaddVibe

07-31-2006, 02:57 PM

Someone dies...let's say someone that worked hard ALL their life.

Their house is paid for...after all he had a long life...let's say it's worth 500,000.00.

Owned cars/and other material possessions...let's put that at 200,000.00 after all he had a Mercedes.

Now what was in the bank account?

Now you want Uncle Sam to take that all? foLIARrd...you're a fool.

Based on very rough numbers he's close to a mil.

Does being poor affect the way you perceive wealth?

FORD

07-31-2006, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe

Based on very rough numbers he's close to a mil.

Then there's nothing to worry about, since the current law doesn't tax anyone under $2 million, as Cat previously mentioned.

Even if you added the house and other possessions, using your numbers, it's still under $2 million.

As I said, some very rich people throughout history have supported the estate tax. One can only logically assume why that is. Maybe because they know first hand what it's like to be rich, and the temptations that come with it. BUT they also understand the responsibilities that come with it because they earned the money. Bill Gates didn't exactly start from a position of poverty. His dad is a senior partner in one of the largest law firms in this country and they're also lobbyists. William Gates Sr also is in favor of the estate tax, BTW. Not like he needs to worry about leaving his son any money......

Someone like Chimpy or Paris Hilton has no idea what it means to earn a living. Chimpy can "cut brush" on his pig farm, and Paris can stick her hand up a cow's ass all they want, it's still meaningless when they don't have to actually struggle with this fucked economy like those who they imitate for photo ops.

DrMaddVibe

07-31-2006, 03:41 PM

I didn't factor in his bank accounts or the fact that maybe he liked toys.

Sounds like you want "Caesar" to take it all, eh?

FORD

07-31-2006, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I didn't factor in his bank accounts or the fact that maybe he liked toys.

Sounds like you want "Caesar" to take it all, eh?

I don't want royal familes in this country, and I don't want anybody living off Nazi blood money.

I don't know how to make that happen through laws, but it's no secret that the rich do NOT pay their fair share of taxes, because they use every loophole they can to get out of it.

One thing that might work, since it seems like the US military has become a tool of the corporatists anyway, is manadatory service for all the little rich fucks. Put Jenna & Tonic on the front lines. Send Paris and Lionel Richie's junkie daughter over there with em, while you're at it.

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by FORD

No it isn't.

There's a difference between someone who is rich because they did something to earn their money, and someone who inherited it.

Look at the mess this country is in right now, financially and otherwise. Did you ever consider that a major part of the reason for that, is that the chimp supposedly in charge doesn't have the slightest concept in his feeble mind what it is like to struggle to meet monthly bills. Or even to work a job 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week - if you're lucky.

Poppy Bush got a lot of flak in 1992 for not knowing how a supermarket scanner works, and his dumbass son is even more clueless than that.

How many generations of these financial vampires can this country tolerate?? Chimpy is literally destroying this country through his own ignorance. Not because he's rich, but because he's third generation idle rich. From Nazi blood money, no less.

http://www.newstrekker.com/series_tos/pic_bios/spock.jpg

A very logical statement.

Harry Reid doesn't think it will be a problem to kill this ridiculous bill, but God only knows what the usual DLC suspects will do. I'm hoping they can table it.

My point is, NOBODY should have any right to determine where and how someone's wealth gets distributed after that person is gone.

THAT'S WHY WE HAVE WILL'S IN THE FIRST PLACE!

Now granted, many people are so spoiled that they don't really deserve it but, the person leaving it behind should be the one who determines that.

Ford, do you know that many people leave Millions behind and don't make any provisions for their families just because they are greedy?

It happens more often than you think.
In many cases the deceased has left it all to charities, except for the big chunk that the government takes that goes where?
I dunno what happens to the estate tax funds collected, do you?

I think it is a violation of the deceased freedom of choice but, you cannot infringe on the right's of a dead person in this country which is what makes the estate tax even possible to begin with.

I laugh at your assertion that it is the spoiled rich kids that have destroyed this country though, that's a pretty weak justification in my opinion.
Not all rich kids are spoiled rotten, Ford.
And not all of them grow up to be Emporer either.

But the bigger issue is buried in this bill, a fair wage that keeps people at a closer to even keel with an ever rising cost of living.

I've read comments in this thread that people will lose jobs if companies have to pay their employees more, which, and pardon my yelling, A CROCK OF SHIT!

Look, if an employer has to cut jobs because he has to pay someone more than $5.15 an hour, then that person that lost that job can find another somewhere else making the higher wage.
that means that by giving up that job they will get a raise by going somwhere else.

I see HELP WANTED or NOW HIRING signs all over the place. it isn't as if there aren't jobs to be had that pay MORE than minimum wage now.
It's just as it was said in this thread, poeple just don't want to work.

That's fine, if they like living in a box, let them.
But punishing everyone due to a small percentage of lazy fucks lacking at the very least, GOOD WORK ETHICS, is a terribly wrong way to look at it.

Some people can't afford to further their education and Bush has made that even harder with his raping of the PELL Grant and Student Loan programs to fund the Iraq War.
He even took money from Social Security, Medicare and Medicaide to fund the Iraq War.

The problem isn't the people, it's the system, and this bill's failure will only ensure more suffering and more people ending up on Welfare which the tax payers fund as well.

Sure, the wealthy only make up 2% of the tax bill, but compared to the 98% the rest of the world pays means WE are the one's funding the majority of the entitlement programs in this country while governmental spending continues to run out of control debts we will also have to pay for in the future.

The monies made from the estate tax doesn't justify the means in my opinion so it is a useless tax in the bigger picture.

Packaging that tax cut with a minimum wage raise is the problem, and it really really really pisses me off to see people being done that way.

I hope and pray that this bill blows up in the Republicans face and they get what they deserve for it....voted OUT of office.

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 06:49 PM

P.S. Anyone can flip burgers at any of my local Wendy's and make $9.00 an hour.

A wage increase only ensures that people won't have to work for nothing. i see it more as 'Wage Insurance' than anything else because the jobs are out there, if you want one.

Not to mention the number of people that will be able to afford health care for their families if the minimum wage is increased.

Raising the wage is a win-win situation.
The dirty pool is combining that raise with a needless tax cut for the smallest percentage of the population.

Republicans have taken the lead in the "which party sucks more" catagory, in my opinion.

It's dirty politics that will affect the majority negetively.

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Someone dies...let's say someone that worked hard ALL their life.

Their house is paid for...after all he had a long life...let's say it's worth 500,000.00.

Owned cars/and other material possessions...let's put that at 200,000.00 after all he had a Mercedes.

Now what was in the bank account?

Now you want Uncle Sam to take that all? foLIARrd...you're a fool.

Based on very rough numbers he's close to a mil.

Does being poor affect the way you perceive wealth?

If the total assets are under the $2 Million mark then no estate tax return form is required to be filed.

But that isn't the issue at all. the issue is that 98% of the population will be screwed because of something that only serves 2% or less of the population with this bill.

It's dirty politics by the Republicans, so we should all try and keep the focus on that and NOT allow ourselves to get wrapped up in discussions over the estate tax.

I have a feeling the media will focus on the tax and not the wage increase as well.
How convenient that this bill came with its own fog machine.

diamondD

07-31-2006, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by FORD

No it isn't.

There's a difference between someone who is rich because they did something to earn their money, and someone who inherited it.

So? Who's going to decide the difference? You have no point with this.

Look at the mess this country is in right now, financially and otherwise. Did you ever consider that a major part of the reason for that, is that the chimp supposedly in charge doesn't have the slightest concept in his feeble mind what it is like to struggle to meet monthly bills. Or even to work a job 8 hours a day, 40 hours a week - if you're lucky.

Yeah, FORD. You work a lot harder at your government job posting on the internet all day about the BCE than the President. This is why I never considered your question, because it 's ridiculous. Some people are born rich, some are not. That doesn't mean you should sit at your PC and cry about them not giving you your share.

Poppy Bush got a lot of flak in 1992 for not knowing how a supermarket scanner works, and his dumbass son is even more clueless than that.

And Al Gore didn't know the price of a loaf of bread. Still think you have a point?

DrMaddVibe

07-31-2006, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Cathedral
If the total assets are under the $2 Million mark then no estate tax return form is required to be filed.

But that isn't the issue at all. the issue is that 98% of the population will be screwed because of something that only serves 2% or less of the population with this bill.

It's dirty politics by the Republicans, so we should all try and keep the focus on that and NOT allow ourselves to get wrapped up in discussions over the estate tax.

I have a feeling the media will focus on the tax and not the wage increase as well.
How convenient that this bill came with its own fog machine.

Cat, my point was that more people have 2 mil than they realize.

The government hasn't ran ANYTHING successfully, why would I trust them with MORE money?

Some people work very hard for what they've earned and I don't begrudge them at all. THAT is what makes America a great place to live. If you're born into money you're not supposed to feel bad about it! Just like I've never heard anyone utter, "Gosh its great to be poor!". There are leeches at every level. Know them. For one to work hard and be successful and then what...give it to the government...that's insanity.

As far as the minimum wage thing, I don't recall saying that people would lose jobs. I said businesses would adjust the cost of what they manufacture. That's business. So, what if anything is gained by that?

Cathedral

07-31-2006, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Cat, my point was that more people have 2 mil than they realize.

The government hasn't ran ANYTHING successfully, why would I trust them with MORE money?

Some people work very hard for what they've earned and I don't begrudge them at all. THAT is what makes America a great place to live. If you're born into money you're not supposed to feel bad about it! Just like I've never heard anyone utter, "Gosh its great to be poor!". There are leeches at every level. Know them. For one to work hard and be successful and then what...give it to the government...that's insanity.

As far as the minimum wage thing, I don't recall saying that people would lose jobs. I said businesses would adjust the cost of what they manufacture. That's business. So, what if anything is gained by that?

I understand your point, and i agree to a point.

But, no matter what the wage is, inflation continues to drive the cost of products higher.
The downside, however, is that inflation keeps driving the prices up while wages remain stagnant and sooner or later people can't afford those products so, sales drop, money is lost, businesses close.

What is gained is continued sales of a companies product.
If you keep the consumer in a low wage job while economics continue to rise they will have to cut corners, in some cases eliminate spending on certain things all together.
You do that and sooner or later it comes full circle and a company can no longer sell anything because the consumer is strapped and simply cannot afford it.

This is also greatly contributed to by outsourcing, meaning trade deals like Nafta and Cafta.
As long as there is an opportunity to outsource production then there will never be any incentive to pay an emplyoee what they are worth or deserve to be paid here at home.

It's all relative but, the fat cats in Washington are so far from reality that they have no idea what it means to go hungry.
they open their fridge and the milk is there, WE have to go buy it and know what it costs to even have it in the fridge.

They can't see beyond their own bloated bellies to even relate to the issue. to them, when people scream that they can't make it on $5.15 an hour it's just a plitical issue.
It isn't, it's real life in many homes across america.

If you gave me one day in Washington to do whatever i wanted to do i would save this country Billions a year in reversing the Trade Deals, cutting the salaries of Congress and the Senate, raising the minimum wage to a competitive wage, end our involvement in foreign governments (that includes Israel), double the number of troops in Iraq and tell the Iraqi's they have until a select date to stand up cause we're pulling out on that date and they are on their own, put everything i can into alternative energy research, build schools, increase spending on education loans and grants, raise the teaching standards across the country....the list goes on.

Bottom line, I'd invest in THIS country first, and THEN maybe offer aide to other nations that are not opressive and/or run by communist dictators. they'd have to earn it, period.

Checks and Balances WOULD be restored from the Supreme Court all the way down to local state governments and people would tow the line or get off of it completely.

I'd clean fucking house and make people pull their weight.
Drug testing for anyone on government assistance, etc. etc. etc.

Enough is enough, and America has enough resources that we don't need the help of other countries.

And i guarentee you that we would have the respect of a hell of a lot more people than we do in this world.

The People's Constitutional Right's would be 100% restored, put it that way.

And i'd have to do all of this in one day because i'd be shot dead before the start of a second day.

It would be worth it though, I'd die knowing i did what was right by the people.

DrMaddVibe

08-01-2006, 07:28 AM

I support you One Day.

Its time for another Tea Party.

Nickdfresh

08-01-2006, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Cat, my point was that more people have 2 mil than they realize.

Really? And what does the Estate Tax qualify as $2million?

The government hasn't ran ANYTHING successfully, why would I trust them with MORE money?

They need it to fund the illegal Wars you voted for...

LOL, you hated Clinton, but looooove that Chimp!!

Some people work very hard for what they've earned and I don't begrudge them at all. THAT is what makes America a great place to live. If you're born into money you're not supposed to feel bad about it! Just like I've never heard anyone utter, "Gosh its great to be poor!". There are leeches at every level. Know them. For one to work hard and be successful and then what...give it to the government...that's insanity.

As far as the minimum wage thing, I don't recall saying that people would lose jobs. I said businesses would adjust the cost of what they manufacture. That's business. So, what if anything is gained by that?

Um, that didn't really happen the last wage increase. Oh, and maybe more people would buy products...

DrMaddVibe

08-01-2006, 05:39 PM

nicker00, do you EVER bring anything besides a bad attitude here?

If you can't understand something...stay out.

Big Train

08-02-2006, 01:44 AM

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
How is it a "communist idea?" It's a meritocracy actually. Everyone would have to be self-made...

It's communist in that it is telling me what I can and cannot do with money I earned and already paid taxes on. If my children can't benefit, even if I say so via my own free will, if they have to work because the government or another entity does, now you are entering a communist/Marxist way of running things. That doesn't float in America, at least not yet.

Big Train

08-02-2006, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Cathedral
If the total assets are under the $2 Million mark then no estate tax return form is required to be filed.

But that isn't the issue at all. the issue is that 98% of the population will be screwed because of something that only serves 2% or less of the population with this bill.

It's dirty politics by the Republicans, so we should all try and keep the focus on that and NOT allow ourselves to get wrapped up in discussions over the estate tax.

I have a feeling the media will focus on the tax and not the wage increase as well.
How convenient that this bill came with its own fog machine.

Cathedral could you kindly explain how this estate tax bill screws Joe Average, to whom it does not apply? It is dirty politics by the Republicans that the Dems will kill a bill to help the average person? If I were in office, I would vote for this because it is a win win for people of all socioeconomic backgrounds. Tell me where the bad part is.

I will agree with you that bills should be voted straight up and down, but in this case, there is no bad side to it. Except if your a Dem and your socal program excess wont be filled from emptying dead men's coffers.

Also, when did the 2 mil mark become the top 2%? This is not the top 2% in net worth we are talking about, we are talking about individuals or entities with assests at or above 2 million dollars. Under that definition, every fucking town in America has at least 10-30 businesses that would be affected (as most small business are family owned) and some wealthy individuals.

The real problem with the estate tax isn't the hiltons, it's your local mom and pop nursery, farm, small iron works etc, with a few million in assests, owned by a family. If you read the article, it says about as much.

But we can continue to harp on other things if you like...

Cathedral

08-02-2006, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by Big Train
Cathedral could you kindly explain how this estate tax bill screws Joe Average, to whom it does not apply?

That's not what i said at all, I said that failure to raise the minimum wage screws Joe Average. Attaching the tax cut to it insures it's failure...did you even read my previous posts? I think i was pretty clear on that.

It is dirty politics by the Republicans that the Dems will kill a bill to help the average person? If I were in office, I would vote for this because it is a win win for people of all socioeconomic backgrounds. Tell me where the bad part is.

The 'bad part' is that the tax cut was attached to the minimum wage increase, which we all know Dems fully fight to keep in place so, they will kill the bill AND the wage increase in the process...that's the dirty politics part because it gives the Republicans a talking point that Democrats denied raising the wages and therefore, don't care about the working class

I will agree with you that bills should be voted straight up and down, but in this case, there is no bad side to it. Except if your a Dem and your socal program excess wont be filled from emptying dead men's coffers.

The bad side is that the working class WON'T get the wage increase because Democrats will be voting to reject a tax cut for the rich, NOT voting for a wage increase for the working class

Also, when did the 2 mil mark become the top 2%? This is not the top 2% in net worth we are talking about, we are talking about individuals or entities with assests at or above 2 million dollars.

Exactly, this is what i meant, and i was pretty clear on this in my previous posts

Under that definition, every fucking town in America has at least 10-30 businesses that would be affected (as most small business are family owned) and some wealthy individuals.

As you stated, we're talking individuals, NOT businesses

The real problem with the estate tax isn't the hiltons, it's your local mom and pop nursery, farm, small iron works etc, with a few million in assests, owned by a family. If you read the article, it says about as much.

Um, DUH?

But we can continue to harp on other things if you like...

Learn to read before you jump my ass, dude. You missed my entire point completely. MY problem is that the Republicans packaged the wage increase with a tax cut they are trying to slide past the Democrats. I'm NOT siding with the Democrats on the issue, I'm just slamming the Republicans for risking the bills WAGE INCREASE failure by packaging it with something they know damn well the Democrats will reject, damn.

Cathedral

08-02-2006, 03:06 AM

Big Train, you may think it is OK to play games with people's wages if it gives the Republicans a political advantage. I don't, it's serious business that people can't afford to live as it is.

The very act of putting those two issues together in one bill shows contempt for the working class, period.

Nickdfresh

08-02-2006, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Big Train
Cathedral could you kindly explain how this estate tax bill screws Joe Average, to whom it does not apply? It is dirty politics by the Republicans that the Dems will kill a bill to help the average person? If I were in office, I would vote for this because it is a win win for people of all socioeconomic backgrounds. Tell me where the bad part is.

I will agree with you that bills should be voted straight up and down, but in this case, there is no bad side to it. Except if your a Dem and your socal program excess wont be filled from emptying dead men's coffers.

Also, when did the 2 mil mark become the top 2%? This is not the top 2% in net worth we are talking about, we are talking about individuals or entities with assests at or above 2 million dollars. Under that definition, every fucking town in America has at least 10-30 businesses that would be affected (as most small business are family owned) and some wealthy individuals.

The real problem with the estate tax isn't the hiltons, it's your local mom and pop nursery, farm, small iron works etc, with a few million in assests, owned by a family. If you read the article, it says about as much.

But we can continue to harp on other things if you like...

I think this whole issue shows the GOP is out of touch and completely dominated by special interests. It "screws" everyone because the Gov't in chronically underfunded with the record spending, and this is only about the top top tophat 1%...

Nickdfresh

08-02-2006, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
nicker00, do you EVER bring anything besides a bad attitude here?

If you can't understand something...stay out.

Sorry AssVibe, I didn't mean to provide actual facts that contradict your droning "talking points."

Nickdfresh

08-02-2006, 11:59 AM

August 02, 2006
DEMOCRAT HARRY REID SAYS OPRAH MADE THEM DO IT!

Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid says he knows exactly why Republicans want to pass what he calls "their phony" minimum wage increase. "Number one is they're concerned about their pay increase, Congressional pay increase, number two---AND I SAY THIS SERIOUSLY---OPRAH. MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WATCH THAT SHOW." Reid is talking about last Friday's OPRAH WINFREY show devoted to the plight of working families trying to live off the minimum wage. Shortly after the show aired the House of Representatives in the early morning hours of Saturday voted for a minimum wage increase. Of course the house attached a tax cut for wealthy estate owners and breaks for the timber and coal industry to the bill before sending it off to the senate.

Majority leader Bill Frist said Harry Reid should stop blocking the bill and support what he called "the number one issue---or as we've been told so many times, the number one issue on the Democrats' agenda: that is increasing the minimum wage by 40 PERCENT---40 PERCENT over three years..." Frist kept touting the fact that the Republican proposal was a 40 PERCENT raise which sounds mighty good if you are already making a lot of money.

But let's take a CLOSER LOOK at what a 40 PERCENT increase means to those making the current minimum wage:

Right now those working for the minimum wage earn $5.15 an hour.

The Republican proposal would give those hard working people a "HEFTY" 70 cents an hour increase to $5.85 on JANUARY 1, 2007

On JUNE 1, 2008, their pay would go up another 70 cents an hour to $6.55

On JUNE 1, 2009 the final installment would kick in and those earning the federal minimum wage would be paid $7.25 an hour.

By that time gas should be hovering around $5 A GALLON!

And by the way TODAY is the 10TH ANNIVERSARY of the last time the minimum wage was increased.

August 2, 2006

Link (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicsasusual/)

Cathedral

08-02-2006, 04:38 PM

It doesn't really seem like much in it's full context, does it Nick?

I still think the wage will be too low given how far behind it is from the rising cost of living.
But my so-called "fellow conservatives" don't give a shit about anyone else but themselves it seems.

I was making $5.50 an hour right out of high school, when the minimum wage was $3.35 an hour i do believe. it was still tough just starting out, and i still lived at home then too.

Thing is, when Nafta was passed almost a decade later and our company went under BECAUSE OF OUTSOURCING, I went from making $27,000 a year to $13,000, my wife and i both worked for the same company so we were both out in the cold.

It's easy for people to forget where they came from but, all it takes is one fuck up by the government to remind them of that when they take an unexpected tour back through poverty.

I'll never forget where I came from again.

However, I wouldn't be where I am today if not for investing in property, and i'm by no means rich, just comfortable enough, and smart enough not to lose my ass again so easily.
My wifes life insurance policy further cemented mine and my daughters future security as well...which is great, just not a fair or pleasant trade-off in my opinion.

If i'd had to work for a non-competitive minimum wage there is no way i would have been able to qualify for a home loan in the first place.

This is what i mean when I say we should be investing in our own country, not foreign nations, especially at the risk of our own lower class citizens.
But they seem to overlook those who make so little money because in reality, the poor don't pay any income tax.
but if we focused on elevating those people into positions where they could and would contribute...this country would be much stronger financially and we wouldn't have to look beyond the borders for investments.

I undertsand how economics work, for the most part.
What i don't understand is how we allow our leaders to sell our own interests out from under us.

The way this bill was packaged sticks it to the people that can't afford to get stuck again.
It's basically putting a boot to their head and pressing it harder against the ground.
It says that if people who don't need a tax cut don't get it, those who need more money to survive can't have it.

It's wrong, and if people can't see that then they just suck giant elephant cock.

I'm not a supporter of "Hand Out's", i am a supporter of "Hand Up's"...and a lot of people really need it right now.

What's got me pissed today is that nobody is talking about the wage increase, they're talking about the Death Tax, as i predicted a couple of days ago.

Oh, and my brother has labeled me a Liberal Conservative, ain't that nice?
I'm an Oxymoron after all these years... :)

Big Train

08-03-2006, 12:48 AM

Originally posted by Cathedral
Big Train, you may think it is OK to play games with people's wages if it gives the Republicans a political advantage. I don't, it's serious business that people can't afford to live as it is.

The very act of putting those two issues together in one bill shows contempt for the working class, period.

Thanks Cathedral for explaining to me what I may think, but if you want to lay blame, and it is clear that you do, look squarely towards the Democrats that want to kill this.

As I said before, I agree with you about one up one down voting for bills, but as long as that is not the case, it is perfectly fair to do so. The bill is sound to me all around for all groups, so I don't see it as playing games. The people who want to kill it to save a few one off social programs are the people who are really playing games and frankly I'm suprised you don't see it that way.

Big Train

08-03-2006, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I think this whole issue shows the GOP is out of touch and completely dominated by special interests. It "screws" everyone because the Gov't in chronically underfunded with the record spending, and this is only about the top top tophat 1%...

I'd argue the exact opposite. It is overfunded and completely filled with waste. I mean that way beyond the war which is the only thing that gets focused on. The majority of social programs and assistance programs are completely filled with poor management and waste of every shape and kind.

I'd much rather more Americans keep more money in their pockets all around. Elminate the waste and tax based on the real need.

But that would be me being out of touch...

Cathedral

08-03-2006, 01:01 AM

Originally posted by Big Train
Thanks Cathedral for explaining to me what I may think, but if you want to lay blame, and it is clear that you do, look squarely towards the Democrats that want to kill this.

As I said before, I agree with you about one up one down voting for bills, but as long as that is not the case, it is perfectly fair to do so. The bill is sound to me all around for all groups, so I don't see it as playing games. The people who want to kill it to save a few one off social programs are the people who are really playing games and frankly I'm suprised you don't see it that way.

I lay the blame where it squarely belongs, ON GOVERNMENT, not just one side or the other.

You are still missing my point though, it's about the people getting screwed that can't afford to be screwed anymore. it's about the way the Republicans packaged it to begin with...your other points are just political talking points

To HELL with Democrats AND Republicans.
As i said, the way they both do business only serves themselves and their vested interests.

And i'll tell you what is perfectly fair, NOT accepting the packaging of bills to one-up the other side.

Besides, after doing some research i'm not so sure killing the estate tax is such a good idea. but until i've learned more about it i'll reserve my final opinion on that.

Satan

08-03-2006, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by Cathedral

To HELL with Democrats AND Republicans.

Hey, I don't want em either :mad:

Big Train

08-03-2006, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Cathedral
it's about the way the Republicans packaged it to begin with...your other points are just political talking points

And what you just said right there isn't? C,mon now :rolleyes:

Nickdfresh

08-03-2006, 08:07 AM

Originally posted by Big Train
I'd argue the exact opposite. It is overfunded and completely filled with waste. I mean that way beyond the war which is the only thing that gets focused on. The majority of social programs and assistance programs are completely filled with poor management and waste of every shape and kind.

I don't disagree. But the the aid is siphoned off from those that need it. And important reforms are as inhibited by critics of said programs as they are by proponents. The modern welfare state is an inevitability. And if the gov't is "overfunded," then why are there record deficits? If you want to fight wars, account for 50% of all the worlds defense spending, and save pet-pork projects, then the money has to come from somewhere.

Even Pres. Reagan raised taxes, and insured the funding of the welfare state, when he had too. And he cut taxes when he could.

I'd much rather more Americans keep more money in their pockets all around. Elminate the waste and tax based on the real need.

But that would be me being out of touch...

But the Americans that need help the most don't have the money in their pockets. Estate tax relief would only further polarize the stratification of wealth, and further bludgeon a shrinking U.S. middle class. This country lives and dies by it's blue and white collar classes, not by it's billionares.

BigBadBrian

08-03-2006, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by Cathedral
That's not what i said at all, I said that failure to raise the minimum wage screws Joe Average.

In a way, yes.

However, as Big Train and I have said before, people need to reflect on what happens to a company's Income Statement and Balance Sheet when wages rise: wages go up, Gross Profits go down, and then company's think about lowering expenses, such as reducing their workforce.

Again, I'm not opposed to a minimum wage hike. However, it will affect employment.

Cathedral

08-03-2006, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Big Train
And what you just said right there isn't? C,mon now :rolleyes:

Not, it isn't, it's a fact that the Republicans did this on purpose.
The Republicans knew going in that it was a non-starter, the Democrats have said it was a non-starter, and I knew the moment i heard about the bill that it was a non-starter.

Damn, i don't see what is so hard for you to understand about my point.
Was I really that thick too when i wore the wool?

Let me re-phrase my point just for you, k?

Ok, Cathedral, me, Jim, doesn't give a shit about the estate tax, I care about the working class being paid a fair and competitive wage, which it hasn't been in over a decade.
I don't care about the social programs, I care about the working class being paid a fair and competitive wage, period.

Let's pay the people more money first, THEN worry about the other shit. even clouding the wage issue with all this other shit is the problem I am bitching about.

If you want to pick it apart for it's other bullshit then you are proving my point for me, IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN A STAND ALONE BILL, PERIOD!

THEN, if the Democrats reject it there is no excuse and they are on record alone sticking it to the working class.

It was done this way because Republicans no they can't get the estate tax bill through alone, and it will fail and our argument will be in vein anyway.

I already know there will be no minimum wage increase, it's not going to happen, and THAT is what pisses me off.

End of story.

Nickdfresh

08-03-2006, 10:25 AM

Cathedral

08-03-2006, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
In a way, yes.

However, as Big Train and I have said before, people need to reflect on what happens to a company's Income Statement and Balance Sheet when wages rise: wages go up, Gross Profits go down, and then company's think about lowering expenses, such as reducing their workforce.

Again, I'm not opposed to a minimum wage hike. However, it will affect employment.

Well too bad for the companies then.
Look, it's easy math, if people can't afford to buy something, THAT will affect a companies bottom line because they can't sell their goods if there are no buyers of those goods because they can't afford them.

And even if it did cause layoff's, those people can now go somewhere else to make a higher wage than the minimum they were working for where they were.
Every time I've changed jobs it was to make more money, and sometimes i even changed fields because THAT was what it took to improve my families standard of living.

You gotta do what you gotta do for your family, man.
NOT raising the wage to help people compete with rising cost of living hikes only hurts the people who don't have the opportunities you or I had, assuming you are doing well for yourself.

Sure it will affect employment, but i don't see it as a dire situation as some make it appear.
The price of goods have risen anyway, what hasn't risen is people's ability to stay in the game.

And in the end, more people end up on welfare which places the burdon on the tax payers to compensate for the increased spending on that and other social programs.

I believe that people should be afforded the tools to better their lives, not be left behind to suffer through them and drowned.
Hell, since the bankruptcy laws were changed they can't even get out from under overwhelming debt anymore.

The good far outweighs the bad in my opinion.

But like i posted to BigTrain, this discussion is a waste of time because the bill will be killed for one reason, the estate tax portion of the bill.

It's sad how those that are supposed to be working FOR the people only seem to shit on them.
But, they get their raises, which they don't exactly NEED, don't they?
Their biggest burdon is whether to buy the green or blue Lexus, whereas people are deciding whether they can afford milk or rent, or utilities, or medicine, etc. etc. etc.

Bring on election day, the people have been getting smarter than our Government Officials ever bargained for over the last 6 1/2 years of Bush.
I'm one of them, and i remember how hard I was fucked in the ass in the early 90's.

I'm just one of many newly bred Liberal Conservatives in this country, and we don't vote straight party lines anymore, brother.

Roth On, I gotta hit the road... ;)