Did big ballads kill trad metal?

[Mr Badguy]

Well?

Given the mucho macho image of hard rock and metal, was it stuff like Bon Jovi and Van Hagar that punctured the core of the fanbase and caused them to look elsewhere?

And the fact that guys that sing about being in love look like pussies?

[Terry]

See, I never considered Bon Jovi, mid 1980s KISS, Trixter, Poison, Warrant or Winger metal to begin with. Just a bunch of pop-forty sheep in wolves clothing. Same with Motley Crue starting with Theater of Pain; wussified bullshit for 14 year-old girls to listen to. Hey, if that's the kinda music you wanna make, great. Ain't metal. Or even hard rock. Never was, never gonna be.

Am sure the general public considered them as such, and a lot of other legitimate hard rock bands got taken under because of these guys and their cheesy power-pop ballads that were oversaturating MTV and top 40 radio to the point where people just got sick of the whole genre. Fuck, I was glad when the "grunge" scene kicked into overdrive and wiped that shit off the slate. Cobain was a junkie knucklehead to be sure, but he did us all a favor.

[monkeythe]

I might get in trouble for saying this here but I believe that Van Halen and their success is what killed traditional heavy metal. VH was the first metal band to not sing about what was wrong in the world or about witches & wizards. They were the first metal band to get women to come out to see their shows by having a party atmosphere. All the other bands in LA at the time saw what VH was doing and the success they had and they all tried to imitate VH but most did it very poorly. It was all those bands following in the footsteps of VH that killed traditional metal.

[Terry]

Originally posted by monkeythe
I might get in trouble for saying this here but I believe that Van Halen and their success is what killed traditional heavy metal. VH was the first metal band to not sing about what was wrong in the world or about witches & wizards. They were the first metal band to get women to come out to see their shows by having a party atmosphere. All the other bands in LA at the time saw what VH was doing and the success they had and they all tried to imitate VH but most did it very poorly. It was all those bands following in the footsteps of VH that killed traditional metal.

Agree with some of those points, but never thought of Van Halen as heavy metal, either.

[rustoffa]

Firehouse was the worst of the worst. Sorry for bringing that up....I won't post a video.

[redfire]

Your question needs to be defined. Sorry, I taught Gov 101 for 4 semesters. Anyways, what do you mean by traditional metal? Black Sabbath? Iron Maiden? Van Halen? or Megadeth?

Whatever you meant by traditional metal, the problem is just like any popular thing, it has to come to an end. Notice, I didn't say good thing. Now, to your point: ballads, and anthems became a formula. And since a sort of pop-metal was popular, it became over-saturated. That was the problem. I remember Scott Ian saying back in '86, you could count the number of thrash bands on your hand. And by the Clash of the Titans tour, there were a hundred of them, but almost all of them sucked.

Now, I said not all good things have to come to an end, Steve Vai is still doing his thing. Dream Theater kicks ass. Iron Maiden has put out 2 really good studio albums out of their last 3. Satch is... well Satch. Megadeth came back with a vengenance, thank the Lord. Now, some bands have called it day. But metal isn't dead in the sense that their is nothing out there.

To answer the question, in my opinion, Hair-Metal is what killed Metal. All those bands, that yes copied VH, they killed metal. But so did the buying public that doesn't like metal, but that liked Warrant, Autograph, Great White, Motley Crue, even Metallica's Black album. Industry Executives that didn't want anything new, they had a hand it in. What I'm saying is, there were many factors, ballads being one of them. But you could make a case for a lot of different things.

Unfortunately, their were some stellar bands that were Hair Bands, but it's just like grunge. By 1995, grunge was not as cool as it was in 1992. The amazing thing is Hair-Metal lasted on top for so long. Like I said, grunge was here today, and gone later today. Personally, metal makes me want to party, or fucking just have fun, and get away from all the crap going on in life. Thanks for reminding me that life sucked Grunge. If I wanted to remember that I'd throw on some good blues.

Grunge was needed for popular music, but from a technical stand point, you'd be lying through your teeth if you tell me playing power chords is just the same as playing a riff. Mr. Big might have sucked, but Kurt Cobain couldn't touch Green Tinted Sixties Mind with a fucking 100 foot pole. And I was in middle school when grunge was in. It was a travesty, but also necessary. When Motley Crue, Poison, or even Skid Row have a song in rotation with REO Speedwagon (not the 70's Speedwagon), and Chicago, that's when you know you've prolly crossed a line.

[redfire]

Btw, Firehose is definitely too close to the Cheesewagon. And Van Hagar definitely walked the thin-line of blasphemy, but didn't cross it 'til they recorded and released Not Enough. When It's Love or Love Walks In (80's Van Hagar at it's cheesiest) is nothing like Show Your Love, or So This is Love?, but they were a step above the ballads that came out in the 80's.

I think a more interesting question would be what bands in particular killed metal. That would be lively, and prolly would cause some bloody noses.


Damn, it's like I once moderated this forum or something....

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by redfire
To answer the question, in my opinion, Hair-Metal is what killed Metal. All those bands, that yes copied VH, they killed metal.

It's all subjective. Personally? I think the advent of frequency modulation killed blues-based metal.

Van Halen certainly was NOT blues-based metal.

Back to your nailed-to-the-cross post:

Van Halen inadvertently created Hair Metal...the inside joke keeps rolling.

Orwellian.
:cool:

[binnie]

The problem was that it all became so cliched that it was generic - all of those sorts of bands went into powerballad territtory and you knew what was coming in every song, or every video.

Until "grunge" (hate that term) came along, there were few surprises - Janes Addiction and Faith No More spring to mind - but the problem wasn't so much the ballads as the fact that a lot of bands were just running out of steam by the late 80's.

The material just wasn't as good as a decade earlier.

Some of those videos helped turn metal into a joke too....

[Panamark]

Its all Rock and Roll to me....

Anything with crunchy guitars and a attitude that
gets my blood pumping is metal..

Metal in itself is extremely difficult to classify, look
at all the sub categories in the genre..

Death
Thrash
Black
Satanic
Speed
Soft
Heavy

etc etc

If I listen to Megadeth, then hear Bon Jovi, its like, this
is fucking bubblegum pop crap...

But then if I listen to Rap/Hip Hop/R&B, then Bon Jovi, Im thinking,
hey this shit doesnt sound too bad !

Back on topic, I dont think the big power ballads killed metal..
I think the corporate music world killed metal..
They create the model/magazine type images,
they push these images...
Metal doesnt fit in with that ...

Its only when we get the rare bands that sell themselves
to the millions, by word of mouth, that these corporate
fuckers are begrudginly forced to promote them..

Radio is paid (in various forms) to play the music they play....
And you can bet the emerging metal band doing the local
circuits is not on that playlist...

[Panamark]

Its when the kids realize that this is being done to them, that
we get those Rock/Metal revivals !!

I talk to my 14 year old nieces about music, and its very dismal.
But I have a rebellious 16 year old nephew, who, is seriously
one cool dude for his age.. Practically knows the entire spectrum
of metal up until today... And loves the early stuff..
These young uns are out there, and thats where the heart
of metal is still forging its eternal heartbeat !!

[Panamark]

FUCK THE BIG MUSIC CORPORATIONS !!

[MERRYKISSMASS2U]

There's definitely a way to make "ballad-type" music, yet keep your fans happy.


Pantera's Cemetery Gates? Balladesque, yet it still kicks ass.

[binnie]

Yep, you can write ballads without them being utter-shit.

The key is to make them dark and brooding, not light and fluffy, la la I love you and you broke my heart....

[Hardrock69]

Ballads kill everything except themselves.

The reason?

The Major Labels found out ballads generate more cash flow, so any artist that is signed to a major, and is edgy or heavy or whatever is sooner or later going to come under intense pressure by the fucking bean counters to put out a pussy song...
:rolleyes:

[binnie]

Originally posted by Hardrock69


The Major Labels found out ballads generate more cash flow, so any artist that is signed to a major, and is edgy or heavy or whatever is sooner or later going to come under intense pressure by the fucking bean counters to put out a pussy song...
:rolleyes:

A pussy-song, hahahahahahahaha!!!

That got me....

[Terry]

Originally posted by redfire
Btw, Firehose is definitely too close to the Cheesewagon. And Van Hagar definitely walked the thin-line of blasphemy, but didn't cross it 'til they recorded and released Not Enough. When It's Love or Love Walks In (80's Van Hagar at it's cheesiest) is nothing like Show Your Love, or So This is Love?, but they were a step above the ballads that came out in the 80's.

I think a more interesting question would be what bands in particular killed metal. That would be lively, and prolly would cause some bloody noses.


Damn, it's like I once moderated this forum or something....

Van Hagar had the luck of timing, though, far as surviving grunge. They put out FUCK just before/as the whole Seattle sound was starting to take off, and they didn't put out another studio album, Balance, until 1994, after Cobain already offed himself...

Van Hagar were part cockroach to even be around to put out balance after Nirvana and Co. killed all that hair ballad shit off.

[redfire]

Originally posted by Terry
Van Hagar had the luck of timing, though, far as surviving grunge. They put out FUCK just before/as the whole Seattle sound was starting to take off, and they didn't put out another studio album, Balance, until 1994, after Cobain already offed himself...

Van Hagar were part cockroach to even be around to put out balance after Nirvana and Co. killed all that hair ballad shit off.

Right, and as far as Van Hagar albums go, FUCK is about the best, due to it not having a ballad. You might call Right Now a ballad in terms of it's reflection on society, but it definitely wasn't "Na, na, na, na, na, na, na..."

And I wouldn't call them part cockroach. Van Hagar was still a better band than over 90% of the other bands out there.

[DrMaddVibe]

Van Hagar a band?

Get the fuck outta here!

All Van Hagar was was a stick to beat up on David Lee Roth. With each passing release the desperation level climbed...higher and higher straight uphill they climbed until even Ed's guitar playing became a parody of what he was.

Then in an effort to minimize Roth's replacement they downsized him, but not before they trotted Dave out after using him to record more material (see Me Wise Magic & Can't Get This Stuff No More) and throughly embarassing himself with the likelyhood of actually burying the grudges between them. The irony of the whole situation was magnified as the joke it was when Ga y Cherone revealed during their tour that he was a homosexual. That really makes one wonder if all of this was really worth it trying to stab David Lee Roth in the back.

The ONLY things he's guilty of is finding acceptable replacement bandmates to give US the diehard fans of CVH the best live show he can muster at a given time AND playing CVH songs with the respect that they deserve.

Van Hagar and Gay Halen are not better than 90% of anything. They are what is wrong with the current rock music scene. Both of these incarnations can't overshadow 50 Cent or any other rap out there, but Van Halen with David Lee Roth at the helm would demolish them back to the lipsynching bootyshaking idiots that they are.

[redfire]

Whatever... But I'm pretty much certain that Van Hagar was actually a band. Hell, didn't they sell like 50 million records. ;)

You can hate Van Hagar all you want, but Eddie was still throwing down on the guitar... sometimes. A song like Judgment Day kicks ass doesn't it? Maybe I'm coming at this from a guitar player's standpoint. But, they were better than almost every other band out there.

[DrMaddVibe]

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!

[Terry]

Originally posted by redfire
Right, and as far as Van Hagar albums go, FUCK is about the best, due to it not having a ballad. You might call Right Now a ballad in terms of it's reflection on society, but it definitely wasn't "Na, na, na, na, na, na, na..."

And I wouldn't call them part cockroach. Van Hagar was still a better band than over 90% of the other bands out there.

Disagree.

After Roth left, Van Hagar became followers of the power ballad trend. CVH led the pack. Van Hagar didn't even lead the pack in terms of balladeering.

Will agree that FUCK was one of Sam Halen's better efforts, but it is disposable music to me, as oppsed to CVH, which I never tire of.

[redfire]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!

Gimme a fuckin' break. I never said I didn't prefer Dave. Point of fact, I'm simply saying I think Van Hagar was better than Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, hell even the 1988 version of Judas Priest. You can think Dave or the grave, or whatever other catchy phrases you can string together, that's fine.

Furthermore, I was modding this forum before you found this place. So, for the record, don't think for a second that I'm a sheep just because I like FUCK, and think it's better than anything by Bon Jovi, White Lion, Warrant, or anyone like that.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by redfire
Furthermore, I was modding this forum before you found this place.


There's more to my world than adding Moderator of a forum to it. Its pathetic that you cling to it still.


If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


DAVE OR THE GRAVE FUCK LIKING MUTHAFUCKA!

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!

Amen, Brother!

:killer:

[bru87tr]

Van Fagar was not better than Bon Jovi, Def Leppard or Priest.


get real!

[redfire]

Again, as this is not a debate of facts, and rather opinion, I think Van Hagar was better Bon Jovi, Def Lep and Priest. So what?

As to me clinging to being a mod, I say that only to say that this forum is a joke now. And that's based on the fact that forums was for discussing music that wasn't Van Halen, or David Lee Roth. Van Hagar is not Van Halen, or David Lee Roth and has its proper place in this forum.

By the way, I'm 24 and managing one of the 2 offices of a state wide election for Attorney General. Modding a forum at a DLR site is neither the highlight of my life, or my day today. Sad is clinging to the hope that Ed and Dave will last longer than a 2 tours, if that. And since that's likely the case, sucks to be you. You say their is more to your life than being a mod, yet you say Dave or the Grave... Doesn't sound like their is much more than that.

[DrMaddVibe]

And your sheep ears think that Van Hagar is a band and that they're better than 90% of the other bands out there.

Keep on bleeting. You're bound to find a sympathizer that shares your passion for Van Hagar.

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS is an attitude that I glady share with morons that can't grasp the fact that David Lee Roth IS Van Halen, Was Van Halen and if they ever hope to have any future success, will ALWAYS be Van Halen.

Don't like it, shut the fuck up!

After reading your bullshit I can clearly see why anyone would strip you of a mod position. Especially HERE with the Van Hagar love you croon about!

[redfire]

Well, for the record I wasn't stripped, I resigned it, to which Sarge wasn't that happy with me. And also, I think Dave is Van Halen. But Van Hagar was band. And to me, I'd rather listen to Van Hagar than Bon Jovi, White Lion, Whitesnake, Firehouse, Extreme, Ratt, Motley Crue, Skid Row, ect..

I thought, and still think that the Eat Em and Smile band was closer to Van Halen than Van Hagar was. And I love ALAE and thought it better than all the Van Hagar albums. And if I had a choice between Van Hagar and DLR, I'd choose, and I did choose, DLR. Against, Megadeth and Van Hagar, I'd choose Megadeth. Against Metallica ('86 and prior) and Van Hagar, I'd choose Metallica. And against Iron Maiden and Van Hagar, I'd choose Iron Maiden. But other than those bands, if I had to pick between Van Hagar and anything else, I'd take Van Hagar.

My appareant passion for Van Hagar isn't actually my passion. It's when a person comes into a thread and drops a "Dave or the Grave sheep mutherfuckas" out of context.

Now, you've stated that what I've said is bullshit. How do you figure that?

[DrMaddVibe]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!

[redfire]

Ok, I guess a lack of an answer is a way of killing this thread.

[DrMaddVibe]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!

[Dr. Dave]

I love reading strings like this one. It absoluetly makes my day. Thank you both!!!

To me, Van Halen (w/ the great DLR) ceased to be a rock band on the last note of Fair Warning. Diver and 1984 were pop records to appease MTV. Although they had some flash of billiance, they lacked the edge VH had in the past that made them so great.

When Sammy joined for 5150, they were just continuing the path that VH was on but should have changed the name. It was a different band. The 5150 record was in the can when he joined and added he just added lyrics. Candy music = candy lyrics. FUCK was the first real Van Hagar record. It rocked because it got back to the edge that the OLD band used to live on. If you take out the MTV songs of the rest of the Van Hagar records, there is some serious rock going down.

Van Halen is Dave, Alex, Eddie and Michael

Van Hagar is Sammy, Alex, Eddie and Michael

Gary Halen was useless and should be erased from the archives.

You can love or hate any of the configurations, but you have to agree on one thing. They are different beasts and should have had different names. Example: David Lee Roth touring and playing Van Halen songs isn't Van Halen. It is David Lee Roth.

You have to agree with me because I am always right. Just ask my wife. I am never wrong and if you don't agree then fuck off!!!

hahhhahahahahah......I kill myself sometimes.

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by redfire
As to me clinging to being a mod, I say that only to say that this forum is a joke now.

Not like the old days, eh?

Why did you get fired from here?


By the way, I'm 24 and managing one of the 2 offices of a state wide election for Attorney General. Modding a forum at a DLR site is neither the highlight of my life, or my day today.

But posting here is okay.

Sad is clinging to the hope that Ed and Dave will last longer than a 2 tours, if that. And since that's likely the case, sucks to be you. You say their is more to your life than being a mod, yet you say Dave or the Grave... Doesn't sound like their is much more than that.

Post this sheep shit over at the pen or www.cabowabo.com.

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Post this sheep shit over at the pen or www.cabowabo.com.

Don`t click on that link.

It IS a REAL website.

(Unless you`re into Sammy Hagar)

[redfire]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Why did you get fired from here?

Again, I'll answer this, though I did it somewhere else already, back in about Jan-Feb 2001, I was about to graduate high school, I was in the middle of basketball, and then baseball would be coming up, and had a lot of other junk (girls) going on so I told Sarge I couldn't do it anymore.

Why I do post here is because it's still fun, though like I said, it's not the most important thing I do every day. Studying for the LSATs is right now.

[redfire]

It might have been Dec of 2000, I don't really remember. I know it was cold outside, and I was at a friends house, and sent him the email, and I was on MSN IM, and Sarge hopped on there and asked me what was up. So, those are the details surrounding my absense. And again, I would post periodically, but usually just in the Eat Us and Smile thread. And then the original Army board fell through. And when it came back up, I registered my name, just so someone else wouldn't. And that might sound dumb, but I use to be quite the ass to some people, and didn't want them to register my name. And again, I know that might sound vain, but that's why I re-registered.

[DrMaddVibe]

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

DAVE OR THE GRAVE SHEEP MUTHAFUCKAS!!!

Amen, Brother!

:killer: