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4moreyears
11-21-2006, 10:31 AM
Link (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15822320/)

SALT LAKE CITY - In her battle to legalize polygamy, the only thing Valerie hasn't revealed is her last name. The mother of eight has been on national TV; her photo along with that of her two "sister-wives" has graced the front cover of a glossy magazine dedicated to "today's plural marriages."

She has been prodded about her sex life: "He rotates. It's easy -- just one, two, three." Quizzed about her decision to share a husband with two other women: "You really have a good frame of reference when you marry a man who already has two wives." Interrogated about what it's like to live in a house with 21 children: "Remodeling a kitchen, that's no small feat with three wives and a husband involved."

All the while, the petite brunette with a smile as bright as Utah's sky has insisted that she's just like you and me: "I'm a soccer mom. My kids are in music lessons. They go to public school. I'm not under anyone's control."
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Valerie and others among the estimated 40,000 men, women and children in polygamous communities are part of a new movement to decriminalize bigamy. Consciously taking tactics from the gay-rights movement, polygamists have reframed their struggle, choosing in interviews to de-emphasize their religious beliefs and focus on their desire to live "in freedom," according to Anne Wilde, director of community relations for Principle Voices, a pro-polygamy group based in Salt Lake.

In recent months, polygamy activists have held rallies, appeared on nationally televised news shows and lobbied legislators. Before the Nov. 7 elections, one pro-polygamy group issued a six-page analysis of all Utah's state and local candidates and their views on polygamy. "We can make a difference," the group told supporters.

Efforts paying off
The efforts of Valerie and scores of others like her are paying off. Utah's attorney general, Mark L. Shurtleff, no longer prosecutes bigamy between consenting adults, though it is a felony. Shurtleff and his staff have established an organization, Safety Net, to bring together at monthly meetings representatives from at least five polygamous communities and law enforcement officers. He has arranged to have representatives of polygamous groups address Utah police. And three years ago, he wrote legislation to reduce bigamy between adults from a felony to a misdemeanor, although pressure from Utah's county attorneys derailed that.


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In an interview, Shurtleff, a tall man who favors roomy suits and dark green shirts, said his office now treats bigamy between consenting adults much like fornication or adultery, laws about which are still on Utah's books.

"The thinking is this: This is a big group of people. They are not going away. You can't incarcerate them all. You can't drive them out of the state. So they are here," Shurtleff said. "What do we do about it?"

In their quest to decriminalize bigamy, practitioners have had help from unlikely quarters. HBO's series "Big Love," about a Viagra-popping man with three wives, three sets of bills, three sets of chores and three sets of kids, marked a watershed because of its sympathetic portrayal of polygamists. The U.S. Supreme Court's 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas, which voided laws criminalizing sodomy, also aided polygamy's cause because it implied that the court disapproved of laws that reach into the bedroom.

Since then, liberal legal scholars, generally no friend of the polygamists' conservative-leaning politics, have championed decriminalization. One of them is Jonathan Turley, a law professor at George Washington University who has written two op-eds for USA Today calling for the legalization of bigamy -- and same-sex marriage.

"I find polygamy an offensive practice," said Turley, who has become something of a celebrity among polygamists in Utah. "But there is no way its practice among consenting adults should be a felony."

'Going after crimes against children, rape'
What Shurtleff has vowed to do in Utah, rather than enforcing the bigamy code, is go after members of polygamist groups who break other laws, especially involving children. In April, Washington County prosecutors in Utah charged Warren Jeffs, the 50-year-old head of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, with two first-degree felony counts of rape as an accomplice on suspicion that he forced a 14-year-old girl to marry her first cousin, who was over 18. Jeffs, who was apprehended during a traffic stop in Las Vegas in August, is facing similar charges in Arizona. His next court appearance is Tuesday.

Shurtleff's office has also moved to dismantle a communal property trust owned by Jeffs's sect in Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz. His office also is investigating the Kingston family, including seven brothers accused of incest who are thought to have fathered more than 600 children, informed sources said.

Shurtleff has secured commitments from four polygamist groups that they would abandon the practice of forcing underage girls into marriage, end the widespread practice of welfare fraud and create a more favorable environment for women in plural marriages to report domestic violence and child abuse.

"The things I am going after are crimes against children, rape and other types of abuse where there is a clear victim," he said. Shurtleff persuaded Utah's legislature to pass a specific law in 2003 on child bigamy, making it a second-degree felony punishable by one to 15 years in prison for a married adult to take as a second spouse anyone under 18.

Polygamy has deep roots in Utah's history and in the history of the Church of the Latter-day Saints. Many mainstream Mormons once believed, and many fundamentalists still believe, that only men in plural marriages will get to heaven. But, to ensure Utah would get statehood, the Mormon Church swore off polygamy in the 1890s.

Even so, polygamous communities continued to exist through the American West and in Canada and Mexico. And in recent years, authorities in the state adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" stance, Shurtleff said.

One reason was that the politically powerful Mormon Church, while officially opposing polygamy, did not want the bad press strict enforcement might bring. Another reason was that law enforcement was worried that isolated polygamist communities would erupt in violence if raided. An internal memo at the Arizona attorney general's office in 2002 spoke of a "Waco-level problem" among the polygamous communities along the Utah state line.

Shurtleff said he decided to confront polygamy's darker side and leave the more mainstream communities alone. In 2001, one of Utah's best-known polygamists, Tom Green, was prosecuted for and convicted of child rape for having sex with his first wife when she was 13.

"That's what really started my focus on this," Shurtleff said. "We can't really allow crimes to be committed against children in the name of religion."

'A huge responsibility'
Some polygamists said they welcome Shurtleff's prosecutions.

"Jeffs needed to be stopped," said Bonnie, a 20-something in a polygamist marriage who, like Valerie, declined to give her last name. (She said she has lost three jobs because of her polygamous background.) "I am glad they are prosecuting him."

Bonnie, along with her husband, Nat, and his first wife and their three children, are members of the Apostolic United Brethren, which says it has 7,500 members across the West and in Mexico. Bonnie's family lives in a suburban subdivision containing about 50 houses -- all inhabited by members of the sect. Bonnie's family has been polygamous since the 1860s. Nat was raised in a monogamous household but converted to Mormonism and decided to become a fundamentalist and a polygamist.

Bonnie said that what attracted her to polygamy was the chance it gave her to bond with women as well as with her husband.

"I always had an inner feeling that I'd be a plural wife," she said. "I was very excited to join his family. I had a really good feeling with his first wife."

Nat said he needed to be convinced. Far from the stereotype of the patriarch, he appears bookish and perhaps a tad meek. "Usually the women tend to be the biggest advocates of this way of life and men enter it more timidly," he said. "If you are going to do it right, it's a huge responsibility."

Dr. Love
11-21-2006, 10:57 AM
More wives = more nagging.

Having said that, there's no reason to prevent them from doing it if that's what they want to do.

Guitar Shark
11-21-2006, 11:24 AM
"Pologmy"?

I am not familiar with this term. Is it some kind of game involving the wearing of Ralph Lauren Polo clothing?

Polo may be a fashion crime, but as far as I know, it's still legal to wear it.

BITEYOASS
11-21-2006, 03:19 PM
Bad fuckin idea! If this happens, then expect a greater chance for a place to meet singles to become a sausage fest and for more self-righteous asshole hypocrites to be born.

BITEYOASS
11-21-2006, 03:24 PM
And with the mormons doing this, expect them to push their agenda more as their population grows. Think about it damnit, it will become more of a damn police state! They might even ban Classic VH!

LoungeMachine
11-21-2006, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
"Pologmy"?

I am not familiar with this term. Is it some kind of game involving the wearing of Ralph Lauren Polo clothing?

Polo may be a fashion crime, but as far as I know, it's still legal to wear it.


And he refers to it in the poll as Poligamy.

Which I assume refers to marrying Mrs. Brady while she does her Polident commercials.....

LoungeMachine
11-21-2006, 04:34 PM
2 women can't "marry"

But a man should be allowed to marry 2 women?

So much for the "sanctimony" of matrimony.

I'm with Dr. Bathrobe on this....

Having more than one wife should be used as a punishment, not a reward.

3 strikes and you're out........strolling with 4 wives.

Lqskdiver
11-21-2006, 05:27 PM
Married filiing jointly, jointly, jointly...

4moreyears
11-21-2006, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
2 women can't "marry"

But a man should be allowed to marry 2 women?

So much for the "sanctimony" of matrimony.

I'm with Dr. Bathrobe on this....

Having more than one wife should be used as a punishment, not a reward.

3 strikes and you're out........strolling with 4 wives.

It is all wrong. Keep it simple...keep it man woman.

Dr. Love
11-21-2006, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by 4moreyears
It is all wrong. Keep it simple...keep it man woman.

Wrong? And what makes your moral compass the standard by which we should judge by?

Seriously, why should I care if other people want to get married? Why should anyone feel driven to deny equal rights to anyone else on this subject?

I don't care anything about marriage in the religious sense, I mean legally -- who cares if two people enter into an arrangement like legal marriage? Who cares if more than two people do it?

4moreyears
11-21-2006, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Love
Wrong? And what makes your moral compass the standard by which we should judge by?

Seriously, why should I care if other people want to get married? Why should anyone feel driven to deny equal rights to anyone else on this subject?

I don't care anything about marriage in the religious sense, I mean legally -- who cares if two people enter into an arrangement like legal marriage? Who cares if more than two people do it?

I don't think it is just my compass but most people that have been polled agree and our country was founded ona certain set of values. Guys sucking dicks were not een cosidered by our founding fathers because they probably would have been killed back then. Keep the fags in the closet where they belong.

Guitar Shark
11-21-2006, 09:34 PM
LOL, how do you even respond to a post like that?

LoungeMachine
11-21-2006, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by 4moreyears
I don't think it is just my compass but most people that have been polled agree and our country was founded ona certain set of values. Guys sucking dicks were not een cosidered by our founding fathers because they probably would have been killed back then. Keep the fags in the closet where they belong.






Originally posted by Guitar Shark
LOL, how do you even respond to a post like that?




You can't.

All you can do is shake your head and just imagine what set of circumstances and attitudes he grew up around....

When they can't even get the picture of male oral sex out of their heads, how can we ever expect them to come to a reasonable conclusion?


It's sad, really.


But he thinks people of the same sex, monogamous and dedicated to each other, hoping to be part of a family, cannot enjoy the same rights as a twice divorced, cheating wife beater and get married.

Because it would somehow harm the "sanctity" of marriage

:rolleyes:

Steve Savicki
11-21-2006, 11:32 PM
If it becomes legal, so should gay marriage.

FORD
11-22-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
LOL, how do you even respond to a post like that?

Tell him to do some research on Alexander Hamilton. He was one of the "Founding Fathers" (as seen on the $10 bill) and apparently "guys sucking dicks" was OK with him. And his boyfriend.

Dr. Love
11-22-2006, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
LOL, how do you even respond to a post like that?

Actually I looked up on some texts (I was interested so I used The Google) and it seems EMA is actually correct in this case. Check it out.


Originally posted in The Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness (except fags)

Here's another snippet.


Originally posted in The Declaration of Indepencene

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, or allows the performance of gay sex, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


Boring stuff, but here's the grievences listed explaining why the colonies are breaking off:


Originally posted in The Declaration of Indepencene

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused to keep homosexuals in the closet, where they belong.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has allowed the sucking of dick to be performed by males.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury, mostly to the anuses of our young men.

It goes on for a bit, I won't bore anyone (especially EMA, our expert on the intentions of those who wrote this document and others around this time period).

So all I can say is ... we were wrong guys. Everyone queue up to start apologizing to EMA.

binnie
11-22-2006, 02:51 AM
yeah it should be legal.

If everyone involved is happy, why not?

However, for me persoanlly no thanks. More than one mother in law - I'm only one man...

Switch84
11-22-2006, 02:49 PM
:confused: :p :D Q:What the Hell is "Pologomy"?

FORD
11-22-2006, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:confused: :p :D Q:What the Hell is "Pologomy"?

I think it's when a pedophile frog decides he can marry more than one baby frog.

No, wait, that's PolyWogomy. My mistake! ;)

LoungeMachine
11-22-2006, 03:50 PM
"What is past, is Pologomy"

-William Shakespeare

Nickdfresh
11-24-2006, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by 4moreyears
I don't think it is just my compass but most people that have been polled agree and our country was founded ona certain set of values. Guys sucking dicks were not een cosidered by our founding fathers because they probably would have been killed back then. Keep the fags in the closet where they belong.

Spoken just like it's from a guy that never gets laid...

Nickdfresh
11-24-2006, 02:44 AM
"Pologmy" should be legal, but under tight restrictions to prevent white trash from committing welfare fraud (most polygamist societies are a burden on the welfare state since most men cannot afford more than one wife.)

BITEYOASS
11-24-2006, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
"Pologmy" should be legal, but under tight restrictions to prevent white trash from committing welfare fraud (most polygamist societies are a burden on the welfare state since most men cannot afford more than one wife.)

Do you realize the implications of polygomy being legal? The radical elements of religion would greatly decrease your chances of getting laid. Does that mean more gay sex due to the shortage of wives, nope since the radical elements of religion would probably hang people for that behavior. So it's your choice, either the peaceful tolerant and hard partying country we all love or a mormon/radical islam/evangelical police state.