Reviving the Vietnam War

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  • Warham
    DIAMOND STATUS
    • Mar 2004
    • 14587

    Reviving the Vietnam War

    Reviving the Vietnam War
    Democrats are learning the hard way that despite misgivings about the war in Iraq, Americans still don’t care much for defeatism.

    By Jonah Goldberg

    There's a deep irony to the Democratic Party's dilemma over Iraq. For 30 years, the party's left-wing base has reflexively proclaimed every foreign policy challenge "another Vietnam." These voices rise and fall with America's fortunes. In 1991, again in 2003 and ever since, they've insisted Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam. They also claimed that Afghanistan was Pashtun for Vietnam. There were even some who insisted Kosovo was Serbo-Croatian for Vietnam and, of course, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Grenada were each feared to be Spanish for Vietnam. Like the old saw about Eskimos having a hundred words for snow, it seemed that anyplace the United States sends troops creates a new word for Vietnam.

    (Illustration by Sam Ward, USA TODAY)

    Indeed, two years ago — when the air was already thick with Vietnam clichés — I wrote in this space, "You get the sense that Earth could be invaded by Klingons and some editorialist would hear 'echoes of Vietnam' amidst their disruptor blasts."

    So it shouldn't be as surprising as it seems to be that, lo and behold, the Democrats are behaving as if Iraq is Vietnam all over again. But it is only now dawning on the Democrats that the Vietnam War wasn't exactly their finest hour.

    The Democratic pickle is exquisitely simple: In the past election, they ran as the anti-war party and promised to bring the war to a close, but, like the dog who finally catches the car fender, they're at a loss about what to do now. As Virginia's Rep. Jim Moran says of his fellow Democrats, they "want to make sure this is still President Bush's war," but the only way they can end the war is to take possession of it. The Democratic base thinks that'd be fine. But, one gets the sense, someone in the party's leadership understands that might be a problem.

    Long-lasting myths

    The Democrats are incapable of escaping the gravitational pull of the Vietnam myths they've nurtured for decades. At the same time, the liberal memory of the Vietnam War has become so gauzy and saccharine with nostalgia that they're unprepared to grapple with the downsides of their own all-purpose analogy. All that seems to matter is proving that the Iraq war not only has been lost but must be lost, lest the Vietnam worldview be invalidated. As my colleague Rich Lowry said in regard to Pennsylvania Democrat John Murtha's effort to sneakily thwart the Bush surge: "It used to be that the war had to end because it was a failure; now it must fail so that it can end." For example, Massachusetts' Sen. Edward Kennedy ridicules the notion that a withdrawal from Iraq would have grave humanitarian costs.

    "I heard the same kinds of suggestions at the time of the end of the Vietnam War," Kennedy told NBC's Tim Russert, mocking the notion that we'd have a "great bloodbath" with more than 100,000 dead. "And for those of us that were strongly opposed to the war, (we) heard those same kinds of arguments."

    Yes, but those arguments were right. Our withdrawal from Vietnam did contribute to a great bloodbath. More than a half-million Vietnamese died at sea fleeing the grand peace Kennedy and his colleagues orchestrated. And more than 1.2 million Cambodians died at the hands of the Khmer Rouge, thanks to the power vacuum created by our "humanitarian" withdrawal. Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., a presidential candidate, insists that a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq can't make things any worse. In 1975 he took a similar line: "The greatest gift our country can give to the Cambodian people is peace, not guns. And the best way to accomplish that goal is by ending military aid now." Someone rent Dodd a DVD of The Killing Fields.

    Of course, the costs of defeat in Vietnam were hardly just humanitarian. America's loss at the hands of a small, comparatively weaker nation arguably prolonged the Cold War and has long served as an emboldening example to enemies eager to believe Uncle Sam has a glass jaw — from Saddam Hussein to Osama bin Laden.

    In the wake of 9/11, Ayman al-Zawahri, bin Laden's lieutenant, warned: "O, American people, your government is leading you to a new losing war. O, U.S. people, your government was defeated in Vietnam and fled scared from Lebanon. It fled from Somalia."

    The Democratic Party itself — once the leader in vigorous internationalism — has since Vietnam been perceived as fundamentally unreliable on foreign policy by many American voters. Indeed, someone in the party recognizes this, which is why Democrats are working so hard to avoid being seen as the primary authors of U.S. defeat in Iraq, the way they were perceived after the Vietnam War.

    The New Yorker's George Packer wrote in 2004 that since its experience with Vietnam, "the Democratic Party has had no foreign policy." Though Democrats were eager to spout the language of liberal internationalism in the 1990s, Packer noted, the Clinton administration nonetheless "allowed a genocidal war to bleed away in the Balkans for two-and-a-half years before acting to end it."

    Sealing a defeat

    I don't think it's fair to say the Democrats have had no foreign policy — it's more that they've had lots of them. But Packer's invocation of Clinton's intervention in the Balkans illuminates an important point. Today, liberals proudly tout the Yugoslavian campaign as nigh upon the sole proof that Democrats believe America can use its military power as a force for good. Forgotten are the anti-war left's opposition to an American empire, Clinton's circumvention of the United Nations (at least Bush had U.N. resolutions to back him up), or the ups-and-downs of public opinion. All people remember is victory.

    If President Bush's surge is successful, odds are Americans will think it was all worth it. If, on the other hand, the Democrats are successful at ending the war in defeat, it's not at all clear Americans will see our loss as the unambiguous triumph Kennedy remembers in Vietnam. Nor is it clear they'll congratulate Democrats for securing a sure defeat rather than chancing a possible victory.

    Jonah Goldberg is editor at large of National Review Online. He is a syndicated columnist and a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors.
    Posted at 12:16 AM/ET, March 06, 2007 in Foreign Affairs - Asia - Forum, Foreign Affairs - Middle East - Forum, Forum commentary, Goldberg, Iraq - Forum, Military issues - Forum, Politics, Government - Forum | Permalin

  • hideyoursheep
    ROTH ARMY ELITE
    • Jan 2007
    • 6351

    #2
    Another topic that you don't know dick about.

    Comment

    • Nickdfresh
      SUPER MODERATOR

      • Oct 2004
      • 49125

      #3
      A true piece of shit, written by a pussy Neo Con chickenhawk, FOR NEOCON PUSSY CHICKENHAWKS...

      "Let's go out there and win the big game boys!

      C'mon bitches, you only served four tours!!

      Get yer' artificial leg on soldier!


      And when you get to Walter Reed, make sure you get the Decon rat poison!"

      Comment

      • hideyoursheep
        ROTH ARMY ELITE
        • Jan 2007
        • 6351

        #4
        GET YOUR GOAT-SMELLIN' ASS BACK IN HERE, WARHAMSTER!

        I'M NOT DONE PLAYIN' WITH YOOO!

        Comment

        • hideyoursheep
          ROTH ARMY ELITE
          • Jan 2007
          • 6351

          #5
          Re: Reviving the Vietnam War

          Originally posted by Warham
          Reviving the Vietnam War
          Democrats are learning the hard way that despite misgivings about the war in Iraq, Americans still don’t care much for defeatism.

          By Jonah Goldberg


          Jonah Goldberg is editor at large of National Review Online.
          There's a big part of why you're ignorant, WartHamster. You never pay attention to news, you read op-ed's from the Weakly Standard, National Review, and Washington Post, aside from your paid membership newsletter from Limpbauls.

          How many copies of "See, I told You So" have you fouled with your own man-yogurt?

          Are you aware of how many of your heros have slithered out of service during the period this asspipe is using as a reference?
          You have no credibility whatsoever.

          Comment

          • Steve Savicki
            Full Member Status

            • Jan 2004
            • 3934

            #6
            Republican't Americans may not care because that attitude, intelligent level, and mentallity of the President that specific group of Americans looks up to has been drilled into their head... kind of like those that cheered Coulter on.
            sigpic

            Comment

            • LoungeMachine
              DIAMOND STATUS
              • Jul 2004
              • 32555

              #7
              I love it....

              WARPIG getting OWNED over and over in his own thread, and too PUSSY to back it up.



              Glad you're back, fuckbag.

              I'm going to enjoy watching everyone bitchslap your stupid ass.

              Originally posted by Kristy
              Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
              Originally posted by cadaverdog
              I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

              Comment

              • FORD
                ROTH ARMY MODERATOR

                • Jan 2004
                • 58754

                #8
                Fuck Jonah Goldberg and his horse faced Nazi bitch mother who he rode in on.
                Eat Us And Smile

                Cenk For America 2024!!

                Justice Democrats


                "If the American people had ever known the truth about what we (the BCE) have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched." - Poppy Bush, 1992

                Comment

                • Steve Savicki
                  Full Member Status

                  • Jan 2004
                  • 3934

                  #9
                  Actually, I must apologize because not all Republicans are what I mentioned above. Sarge certainly isn't and "John Ashcroft", though opinionated, is level-headed as well.
                  sigpic

                  Comment

                  • Hardrock69
                    DIAMOND STATUS
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 21834

                    #10
                    Some people are rational and are grounded in reality. Unlike Warham The Droolboy and his God, LittleBoyBrian.

                    Comment

                    • hideyoursheep
                      ROTH ARMY ELITE
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 6351

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Steve Savicki
                      Actually, I must apologize because not all Republicans are what I mentioned above. Sarge certainly isn't and "John Ashcroft", though opinionated, is level-headed as well.
                      I'v seen enough of asscrack to believe otherwise.

                      Comment

                      • hideyoursheep
                        ROTH ARMY ELITE
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 6351

                        #12
                        This entire thread should be dumped on lack of principle.

                        The NeoCunts hiding behind the brave men that fought in a war they themselves tried so hard to stay out of.

                        Comment

                        • Seshmeister
                          ROTH ARMY WEBMASTER

                          • Oct 2003
                          • 35157

                          #13
                          Re: Reviving the Vietnam War

                          Originally posted by Warham
                          In 1991, again in 2003 and ever since, they've insisted Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam. They also claimed that Afghanistan was Pashtun for Vietnam. There were even some who insisted Kosovo was Serbo-Croatian for Vietnam and, of course, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Grenada were each feared to be Spanish for Vietnam.
                          That's just fucking drivel.

                          Who the fuck ever thought or said that the invasion of 20 000 troops in Grenada taking on a dozen unarmed students was like Vietnam?

                          Was the US going to get bogged down in the college cafateria for months whilst 1000s of bodybags were going home full of troops killed by stapler injuries and multiple pencil stab wounds.

                          The whole thing only lasted a few hours for fuck sake, The only way it was similar to Vietnam was that it was a big fucking embaressment.


                          How was Nicaragua like Vietnam? The US sending money to sick fuck thugs to help them murder innocent civilians and overthrow the democratically elected government there? It was kind of like El Salvador though where to defeat the rebels, the US equipped and trained an army which kidnapped and disappeared more than 30,000 people, and carried out large-scale massacres of thousands of old people women and children.

                          Whoever wrote this piece is a fucking oaf.

                          If he thinks those are shining proud examples of US foreign policy then he's a sick bastard.

                          Cheers!

                          Last edited by Seshmeister; 03-09-2007, 12:47 PM.

                          Comment

                          • Hardrock69
                            DIAMOND STATUS
                            • Feb 2005
                            • 21834

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Seshmeister
                            That's just fucking drivel.

                            Who the fuck ever thought or said that the invasion of 20 000 troops in Grenada taking on a dozen unarmed students was like Vietnam?

                            Was the US going to get bogged down in the college cafateria for months whilst 1000s of bodybags were going home full of troops killed by stapler injuries and multiple pencil stab wounds.

                            LAFF MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!

                            The article this thread was created to display is nothing more than some kind of lame attempt by an inept NeoCon shill to attack those who are sensible enough to demand our troops be brought home from Iraq.

                            Nicaragua and El Salvador were like Vietnam in one aspect....the genocide was a result of the usual manipulation of third-world countries by the US.

                            Comment

                            • BigBadBrian
                              TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 10620

                              #15
                              Originally posted by LoungeMachine
                              I love it....

                              WARPIG getting OWNED over and over in his own thread, and too PUSSY to back it up.



                              Glad you're back, fuckbag.

                              I'm going to enjoy watching everyone bitchslap your stupid ass.

                              Owned?

                              All I've seen your lackeys do is make stupid insults.

                              Anyone can be an Internet tough guy.

                              I've yet to see anyone "own" Warham or refute the article in this thread.

                              “If bullshit was currency, Joe Biden would be a billionaire.” - George W. Bush

                              Comment

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