Straight from the horses mouth

[Ellyllions]

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[Ellyllions]

A word from [Gunnery]Sergeant Krueger, USMC, to Speaker Pelosi
By Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger



Saturday, March 31, 2007


How can you even think of pushing forward legislation to set a withdrawal date for US forces from Iraq?

Do you know how much you embolden the insurgency here in Iraq? YOU ARE JEOPARDIZING THE LIVES OF US SERVICEMEN AND WOMEN WITH YOUR ACTIONS.

You and your fellow Democrats are causing the Al Qaeda supported insurgency to use more catastrophic attacks against us and Iraqi forces. You will see more SVBIED’s with chlorine gas, more VBIED’s against civilians and security forces every time you and other Democrats open your mouths.

You will have to live with yourself and try to sleep at night knowing all the defeatist propaganda you have spewed forth is nothing more than ammunition for Islamic extremist groups around the world and more US deaths.

The unsuspecting people who support you know nothing of what goes on over here; you fill their heads with nonsense and talk of pullout to appease them. The only thing that will happen is the establishment of an extremist Islamic state where sharia law is the law of the land and no one is safe.

Sunni Moslems here are coming to our side and joining forces with the government to defeat Al Qaeda(AQI) here in Iraq, but they need our help and they need us to stay. I have spent the last 7 months (3rd tour) in Iraq. I have watched Iraqi citizens pick up weapons and form militias in areas to join forces with Iraqi police/Army.

Common citizens who fight and die because we are standing next to them. Not cutting and running or talking of withdrawal. This started after the surge forces the President sent here arrived.

We have lost Marines also and it hurts more than you will ever know but we have made a commitment to these people. And I for one will not abandon them and I have of a platoon of Marines who feel the same. I have no control over what happened in 2003 and why we invaded Iraq. That is another discussion, but we are here and they need our help to rid their country of these terrorists.

Yes eventually we will leave but we need to do a phased withdrawal without a timeline. At least without a timeline that is published for the world to know. The citizens of Iraq need to see some solidarity in our government, Democrats and Republicans coming together and supporting our President in this war. There is a middle ground here for both parties, you all need to come together and work towards a solution. What we don’t need is more theatrics and clashes between the parties. AQI loves to see that it causes them to do more attacks and continue with the murder and intimidation campaign against Iraqi citizens.

Someone needs to step forward and bring the two parties together. Meet and talk about what you all can do and come to an agreement on the war. Like I said before we need a unified front to present to the world on the Iraq war.

The Iraqi people need a morale boost, they need to see we are behind them and we will support them and not cut and run.

The insurgency needs to see our resolve is strong and we will endure and defeat them. Extremist Islamist terror groups use our perceived weakness against us.

They misunderstand our kindness for weakness. Weakness shown to the world brings more recruits to their cause; it causes more civilian deaths and violence.

Please I implore you to not push this agenda. I have watched you on television and you seem to be using this as a steppingstone to further your political career. STOP!!! More is at stake here. Our countries word is on the line, my word to many Iraqi citizens is on the line. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines lives are at stake. We know the risks and we face them daily. Don’t make our mission more difficult.

Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger
Platoon Sgt 3rd Recon Bn

[Ellyllions]

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[Ellyllions]

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[FORD]

**Astroturf alert**!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing)

This hit piece has been spread to every right wing extremist site on the net already. Definitely NOT the work of one gunnery sergeant, but an organized propaganda campaign to blame the Democrats for a war started by the BCE.

When even a career warmongering NAZI like Kissinger says it's over, then it's time to start talking solutions, not furthering the lies about the non existent "Al Qaeda In Iraq"

[Guitar Shark]

It blows me away that there are still people who support this war.

[Ellyllions]

Hey guys, did you watch any of those videos?

Especially the last one?

None of those are asking for support in the decision to go to war, only that we understand why the soldiers feel it's important to see it through.

There is a difference ya know?

If you don't think so, then maybe I should take the word of one that I found that quoted some of the lovliest Dems (i.e. Bill Clinton, and Nacy Pelosi) in support of military action against Iraq. See I dismissed and didn't post those because the quotes were from 1998 up to 2000....things change just like this war in Iraq isn't the same war we went into.

[FORD]

It never WAS the "war we went into" because the war we were TOLD we were going into NEVER EXISTED.

There were no WMD's, there was no connection to Al Qaeda, there was no threat, and it obviously was no "cakewalk". This was the propaganda the BCE and PNAC were spreading before the war.

Even Poppy Bush knew better......

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different— and perhaps barren— outcome.

Poppy wrote that in a book in 1998. I despise the man, and for good reason, but he NAILED that one. Too bad his idiot son ignored his words.

[Fizz]

Wow, have some peppermint and skip off into the forest.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
It blows me away that there are still people who support this war.

Go back to hiding under your bed.

:gun:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Hey guys, did you watch any of those videos?

Especially the last one?

None of those are asking for support in the decision to go to war, only that we understand why the soldiers feel it's important to see it through.

There is a difference ya know?

If you don't think so, then maybe I should take the word of one that I found that quoted some of the lovliest Dems (i.e. Bill Clinton, and Nacy Pelosi) in support of military action against Iraq. See I dismissed and didn't post those because the quotes were from 1998 up to 2000....things change just like this war in Iraq isn't the same war we went into.

What does "see it through" mean, exactly? At what point do you think we're done?

If you're willing to send your brothers, sons, etc. to Iraq to "see it through," then more power to you. I've never supported this war, but even if I had, I would have a hard time justifying sending my loved ones into harm's way at this point, when Iraq is clearly in the midst of a civil war caused at least in part by our invasion. It's time for us to leave and allow the Iraqis to piece their own country together.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Go back to hiding under your bed.

:gun:

Well hello there, manchild. (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=675111#post675111) Nice to see that you're as useless as ever. :)

[VanHalener]

You rock ELLYLLIONS. Good job!
If I could give you a sixth star, I would. God bless our folks in uniform!

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
What does "see it through" mean, exactly? At what point do you think we're done?

If you're willing to send your brothers, sons, etc. to Iraq to "see it through," then more power to you. I've never supported this war, but even if I had, I would have a hard time justifying sending my loved ones into harm's way at this point, when Iraq is clearly in the midst of a civil war caused at least in part by our invasion. It's time for us to leave and allow the Iraqis to piece their own country together.

Like I said, did you watch any of the videos?

"see it through" as one soldier poignantly put it...."We need to make sure that these people are secure". It doesn't matter what you or I think "finished" is, those people say that they've made a comittment and that they need to help the Iraqis get what they promise them every day on the street.

If I'm willing to send? I'm not sending anyone, you're not sending anyone...those 3 videos of those 3 soldiers all said that they were there because they "WANTED" to be there. You know what, if you're unwilling to at least view the videos with an open mind then there's no point in discussing this with you.

And Ford, I'm still not dragging out old quotes...it's a shame that's all you have to bring to the table.

Until we ALL stop looking at how we got there and start figuring out how we get out, you're right, all is lost.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by vanhalener
You rock ELLYLLIONS. Good job!
If I could give you a sixth star, I would. God bless our folks in uniform!

Thanks!

Here's the biggest problem with everything involving this war. There are 2 kinds of people involved in the US side.

There are those who understand a soldier's mentality, a soldier's allegiance to the flag, and the soldier's goals in life.

The opposing side is a society of people who have no CLUE how those that enlist can see honor in self-sacrifice, or allegiance to much of anything.

The sad part is that the soldier understands that their commitments aren't recognized or respected by everyone, but the others work AGAINST the soldier and call it "saving their lives".

Clue, they don't want you to meddle in their missions! They don't want Monday quarterbacking telling them how they're supposed to think differently.

They want their mission to be successful, they want to do a good job, and they want to come home with HONOR.

[Ellyllions]

...and one more thing...

If you're too lazy to watch the fucking clips then don't talk down to me about the soldiers.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


And Ford, I'm still not dragging out old quotes...it's a shame that's all you have to bring to the table.

So you don't think the opinion of a former President, who also happens to be a career CIA agent, is relevant to the situation? Like I said, I don't like Poppy, but he was absolutely right in his prediction of what would happen if Saddam was removed.


Until we ALL stop looking at how we got there and start figuring out how we get out, you're right, all is lost.

But the BCE (and make no mistake, THEY are the ones behind this Astroturfed "message") has no intentions of getting out. They're building 14 permanent military bases, one of them bigger than the Vatican. And the Vatican is so big they made it a city-state within itself. They have NO intentions of leaving Iraq. Not now, not ever. And the reason why is the Likud/PNAC sickening fantasy of an empire from the Nile to the Euphrates. Not to mention control of the oil, of course.

The way to get out is simply GET OUT. What is so complicated about that?? :confused:

[Ellyllions]

There is spilled milk spoiling on the floor. Who's gonna clean it up or shall we just stand here and argue how it got there?

Have you watched the videos yet?

[Ellyllions]

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[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Like I said, did you watch any of the videos?

"see it through" as one soldier poignantly put it...."We need to make sure that these people are secure". It doesn't matter what you or I think "finished" is, those people say that they've made a comittment and that they need to help the Iraqis get what they promise them every day on the street.

If I'm willing to send? I'm not sending anyone, you're not sending anyone...those 3 videos of those 3 soldiers all said that they were there because they "WANTED" to be there. You know what, if you're unwilling to at least view the videos with an open mind then there's no point in discussing this with you.

And Ford, I'm still not dragging out old quotes...it's a shame that's all you have to bring to the table.

Until we ALL stop looking at how we got there and start figuring out how we get out, you're right, all is lost.

I watched the first minute or two of each one. Definitely enough to get the gist of what was being said. If not, eh, I won't lose sleep over it because these videos are clearly put together for partisan political purposes. Not by the soldiers themselves, but by others.

OK, so you found videos of three soldiers who want to "see it through." Congratulations! :)

The problem with your argument is that these soldiers did not make a "commitment" to the Iraqis or to "see it through." The only commitment they made is to the military, and to follow the orders of their leaders, which ultimately ends in the commander in chief. If they happen to agree with the orders of their leaders (as these three do), great. Does it matter? No.

The fact that I want to bring these people home does nothing to increase their danger above and beyond the danger they are already in, due to the horrible decisions by our government. If anything, it increases their safety by bringing them home earlier than they otherwise would come home. So, sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with your whole premise about me not supporting the troops. I support the troops 100%, including wanting them out of harm's way. My beef is with the people who decided to send them there.

The sad reality is that the current administration doesn't really care about "seeing it through," it is concerned only with not being blamed for the failure of the war in Iraq. The longer we stay, and the longer they can point to a few successes amidst a mountain of failures, the sooner it becomes the next president's problem. Bush doesn't care about the troops' safety as much as he cares about not wanting to lose.

My opinion only, and if you were referring to me with your "talking down" comment, that wasn't my intent.

Love the new avatar. :)

[PlexiBrown]

Saddam had WMD's (at least chemicals) but he had plenty of opportunity to move them which he obviously did. With that being said, this war is bullshit.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
There is spilled milk spoiling on the floor. Who's gonna clean it up or shall we just stand here and argue how it got there?

Have you watched the videos yet?

If by "cleaning it up" you mean stay in Iraq for countless additional years, at a cost of more American lives, no thank you.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I watched the first minute or two of each one. Definitely enough to get the gist of what was being said.

Enuff said. Obviously without viewing the content, ya can't really have a valid stance in the thread.


If not, eh, I won't lose sleep over it because these videos are clearly put together for partisan political purposes. Not by the soldiers themselves, but by others.

BWAHAHAHAHA....and I'll leave that at that.


But thank you for the compliment on my avatar.

[Guitar Shark]

It's your choice not to respond to the substance of my post. ;)

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
There is spilled milk spoiling on the floor. Who's gonna clean it up or shall we just stand here and argue how it got there?

Have you watched the videos yet?

We KNOW how the spilled milk got there. Chimpy pulled the carton out of the refrigerator and deliberately poured it on the floor.

I'm assuming there are cats in Iraq. They'll take care of it.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
I'm assuming there are cats in Iraq. They'll take care of it.

How terrible a thing to say. C'mon FORD, we've got to see it through. If not for the Iraqi people, then for the Iraqi cats.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
How terrible a thing to say. C'mon FORD, we've got to see it through. If not for the Iraqi people, then for the Iraqi cats.

But the troops are not letting them clean up the milk :(

http://www.ranger.org/images/photoGallery/2003/iraq-soldierWithCat.jpg

[Ellyllions]

But it's perfectly ok for you guys to choose for the troops?

Go ahead, whip out the sarcasm in an effort to NOT engage in a healthy debate. Jokes are much better than watching the videos and thinking, "hmm...maybe there is a whole other side of this war that doesn't even involve Washington, DC."

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
But the troops are not letting them clean up the milk :(

http://www.ranger.org/images/photoGallery/2003/iraq-soldierWithCat.jpg

OMG. :D

[FORD]

http://www.outhousegraffiti.com/cat01.jpg
I swear by Allah I'm not a terrorist! I just want to lick up the spilled milk!!

[Ellyllions]

http://appealforcourage.org/

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
But it's perfectly ok for you guys to choose for the troops?

Go ahead, whip out the sarcasm in an effort to NOT engage in a healthy debate. Jokes are much better than watching the videos and thinking, "hmm...maybe there is a whole other side of this war that doesn't even involve Washington, DC."

I'm not choosing anything, I don't have a choice other than my vote. I didn't vote for the people who sent our troops to Iraq. That's the extent of my ability to choose what happens. We're talking here, that's all.

And I made a lengthy post seeking to promote "healthy debate," you just chose to ignore it, allegedly because I didn't watch the entirety of the videos.

Like I said, there very may well be "a whole other side" to this war for a few soldiers. But it doesn't matter in the slightest, since they are there only to follow orders by our leaders.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark

Like I said, there very may well be "a whole other side" to this war for a few soldiers. But it doesn't matter in the slightest, since they are there only to follow orders by our leaders.

Oh really?

http://appealforcourage.org/

I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to anything. I'm just trying to shed some light that it's not the Policians stance that we should be looking to for guidance on this war. The feet on the ground is the BEST source of information.

And it's the one I choose to base my decision on.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Oh really?

http://appealforcourage.org/

I'm not trying to "convert" anyone to anything. I'm just trying to shed some light that it's not the Policians stance that we should be looking to for guidance on this war. The feet on the ground is the BEST source of information.

And it's the one I choose to base my decision on.

If all you care about is the soldiers' opinions, then would it make any difference to you if it turns out that a majority of soldiers in Iraq disagree with the 3 soldiers in the videos you posted?

In other words, a majority of the American public (based on latest polls) thinks the troops need to start coming home. If someone polled the troops themselves, and the results are similar to the rest of the country, would you then rethink your position?

[scamper]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
a majority of soldiers in Iraq disagree with the 3 soldiers in the videos you posted?


Not the ones that I have talked to.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
If all you care about is the soldiers' opinions, then would it make any difference to you if it turns out that a majority of soldiers in Iraq disagree with the 3 soldiers in the videos you posted?

In other words, a majority of the American public (based on latest polls) thinks the troops need to start coming home. If someone polled the troops themselves, and the results are similar to the rest of the country, would you then rethink your position?

ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!

They are the ones risking their lives, so they get to tell me what they want.

Why don't you drop LT Jason Nichols at that Appeal for Courage web site and let him tell you what the soldier's think? Seriously. I have.

[Baby's On Fire]

After one of these soldiers gets a leg or two blown off in this bullshit war, we'll see if they have the same opinion then.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
ABSO-FUCKIN-LUTELY!

They are the ones risking their lives, so they get to tell me what they want.

Why don't you drop LT Jason Nichols at that Appeal for Courage web site and let him tell you what the soldier's think? Seriously. I have.

Good to hear. :) I don't presume to know whether a majority of soldiers believe one way or the other, but I'm willing to bet that their opinions are colored by the nature of what they do.

I bet the results of a "soldiers' secret ballot" sort of thing would be very interesting.

Anyways, thanks for the debate. :cool:

[Ellyllions]

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[Ellyllions]

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[FORD]

Why is it that all these right wing websites deliberately conceal who owns the site?

Anyone who knows where to look and what to look for can find the appropriate info for this website, VH Links, or 98% of the other web sites on the net.

The fact that these fuckers hide behind "anonymous" hosting companies is only further proof that their efforts are anything BUT genuine, and most probably propaganda from Karl Rove or some other PNAC criminals.

[studly hungwell]

There are so many people who do not value the ideas of honor and integrity. These two words represent more than any picture could could show...more than the skill that I have to describe. Its something that many have experienced and know intimately. The Japanese had it right....honor is worth dieing for. It's that big. I support it. I teach my kids, "Always honor your promises, no matter how bad it hurts." Therein lies honor, integrity and respect. Am I on the wrong planet or am I on to something here?

[FORD]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
There are so many people who do not value the ideas of honor and integrity. These two words represent more than any picture could could show...more than the skill that I have to describe. Its something that many have experienced and know intimately. The Japanese had it right....honor is worth dieing for. It's that big. I support it. I teach my kids, "Always honor your promises, no matter how bad it hurts." Therein lies honor, integrity and respect. Am I on the wrong planet or am I on to something here?

I value honor and integrity. The BCE has neither.

Who the Hell made a promise to stay in Iraq forever. I sure as Hell didn't, and nobody legally authorized to speak for me or my country did.

And don't give me some bullshit about "completing the mission" because THE FUCKING GODDAMNED MISSION HAS NEVER BEEN DEFINED, AND THOSE UNELECTED CRIMINAL NAZI SONS OF BITCHES REFUSE TO DEFINE ONE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE IS NOT ONE GODDAMNED REASON TO BE IN IRAQ!!.

The ONLY way for the United States of America to retain ANY honor and integrity at all is to end this occupation, bring every last fucking one of the troops home now, and put every member of the BCE executive branch on trial for war crimes.

[studly hungwell]

Originally posted by FORD
I value honor and integrity. The BCE has neither.

Who the Hell made a promise to stay in Iraq forever. I sure as Hell didn't, and nobody legally authorized to speak for me or my country did.

And don't give me some bullshit about "completing the mission" because THE FUCKING GODDAMNED MISSION HAS NEVER BEEN DEFINED, AND THOSE UNELECTED CRIMINAL NAZI SONS OF BITCHES REFUSE TO DEFINE ONE BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE IS NOT ONE GODDAMNED REASON TO BE IN IRAQ!!.

The ONLY way for the United States of America to retain ANY honor and integrity at all is to end this occupation, bring every last fucking one of the troops home now, and put every member of the BCE executive branch on trial for war crimes.

I've read alot of your posts and I knew it was only a matter of time before this happened. You cling to things which you consider truth which are not. You base your moral supremacy on this facade. The fact that you have sycophants here on the board to support your view gives you the 'strength' you need to spout your Michael Moore bullshit. Introspection would serve you, sir. Honest introspection.

We made a promise to these people....plain and simple. You're right, Ford, nobody promised for you. Therefore you are not bound by the promise. So, feel free to pick this situation apart with allegations of supreme court appointments to power and illegitimate command. A thinking man would be more tact....it is obvious that you are a knee jerk reactionary. Ignorant people respond to these arguments. Always have, always will. You do show some signs of brilliance in your writings....I respect that...but, most of your playbook bullshit leaves much to be desired.

My children will know the value of their word....and, those that deal with them as adults will be safe from deception and hurt. Regardless of how much it hurts to fulfill said word. That's what I call cool.

[Nickdfresh]

Um, most troops think Bush is an asshat, and his superficial, temporary plan for "victory," or the "Surge," is not a long term answer...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2006/dec/29/poll_troops_disapprove_of_bush_on_iraq_majority_op poses_troops_increase

http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php


Dec. 29, 2006
Down on the war
Poll: More troops unhappy with Bush’s course in Iraq

By Robert Hodierne
Senior managing editor

The American military — once a staunch supporter of President Bush and the Iraq war — has grown in creasingly pessimistic about chances for victory.

For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president’s han dling of the war than approve of it. Barely one-third of service members approve of the way the president is handling the war, ac cording to the 2006 Military Times Poll.

When the military was feeling most optimistic about the war — in 2004 — 83 percent of poll re spondents thought success in Iraq was likely. This year, that number has shrunk to 50 percent.

Only 35 percent of the military members polled this year said they approve of the way President Bush is handling the war, while 42 percent said they disapproved. The president’s approval rating among the military is only slight ly higher than for the population as a whole. In 2004, when his popularity peaked, 63 percent of the military approved of Bush’s handling of the war. While ap proval of the president’s war lead ership has slumped, his overall approval remains high among the military.

Just as telling, in this year’s poll only 41 percent of the military said the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, down from 65 percent in 2003. That closely reflects the beliefs of the general population today — 45 percent agreed in a recent USA Today/Gallup poll.

Professor David Segal, director of the Center for Research on Mil itary Organization at the Univer sity of Maryland, was not sur prised by the changing attitude within the military.

“They’re seeing more casualties and fatalities and less progress,” Segal said.

He added, “Part of what we’re seeing is a recognition that the in telligence that led to the war was wrong.”

Whatever war plan the presi dent comes up with later this month, it likely will have the re placement of American troops with Iraqis as its ultimate goal. The military is not optimistic that will happen soon. Only about one in five service members said that large numbers of American troops can be replaced within the next two years. More than one-third think it will take more than five years. And more than half think the U.S. will have to stay in Iraq more than five years to achieve its goals.

Almost half of those responding think we need more troops in Iraq than we have there now. A surpris ing 13 percent said we should have no troops there. As for Afghanistan force levels, 39 per cent think we need more troops there. But while they want more troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, nearly three-quarters of the re spondents think today’s military is stretched too thin to be effective.

The mail survey, conducted Nov. 13 through Dec. 22, is the fourth annual gauge of active-duty mili tary subscribers to the Military Times newspapers. The results should not be read as representa tive of the military as a whole; the survey’s respondents are on aver age older, more experienced, more likely to be officers and more ca reer-oriented than the overall mil itary population.

Among the respondents, 66 per cent have deployed at least once to Iraq or Afghanistan. In the overall active-duty force, according to the Department of Defense, that number is 72 percent.

The poll has come to be viewed by some as a barometer of the pro fessional career military. It is the only independent poll done on an annual basis. The margin of error on this year’s poll is plus or minus 3 percentage points.

While approval of Bush’s han dling of the war has plunged, ap proval for his overall performance as president remains high at 52 percent. While that is down from his high of 71 percent in 2004, it is still far above the approval rat ings of the general population, where that number has fallen into the 30s.

While Bush fared well overall, his political party didn’t. In the three previous polls, nearly 60 percent of the respondents identi fied themselves as Republicans, which is about double the popula tion as a whole. But in this year’s poll, only 46 percent of the mili tary respondents said they were Republicans. However, there was not a big gain in those identifying themselves as Democrats — a fig ure that consistently hovers around 16 percent. The big gain came among people who said they were independents.

Similarly, when asked to de scribe their political views on a scale from very conservative to very liberal, there was a slight shift from the conservative end of the spectrum to the middle or moderate range. Liberals within the military are still a rare breed, with less than 10 percent of re spondents describing themselves that way.

Seeing media bias

Segal was not surprised that the military support for the war and the president’s handling of it had slumped. He said he believes that military opinion often mir rors that of the civilian popula tion, even though it might lag in time. He added, “[The military] will always be more pro-military and pro-war than the civilians. That’s why they are in this line of work.”

The poll asked, “How do you think each of these groups view the military?” Respondents over whelmingly said civilians have a favorable impression of the mili tary (86 percent). They even thought politicians look favorably on the military (57 percent). But they are convinced the media hate them — only 39 percent of mili tary respondents said they think the media have a favorable view of the troops.

The poll also asked if the senior military leadership, President Bush, civilian military leadership and Congress have their best in terests at heart.

Almost two-thirds (63 percent) of those surveyed said the senior military leadership has the best interests of the troops at heart. And though they don’t think much of the way he’s handling the war, 48 percent said the same about President Bush. But they take a dim view of civilian military lead ership — only 32 percent said they think it has their best inter ests at heart. And only 23 percent think Congress is looking out for them.

Despite concerns early in the war about equipment shortages, 58 percent said they believe they are supplied with the best possi ble weapons and equipment.

While President Bush always portrays the war in Iraq as part of the larger war on terrorism, many in the military are not convinced. The respondents were split evenly — 47 percent both ways — on whether the Iraq war is part of the war on terrorism. The rest had no opinion.

On many questions in the poll, some respondents said they didn’t have an opinion or declined to an swer. That number was typically in the 10 percent range.

But on questions about the president and on war strategy, that number reached 20 percent and higher. Segal said he was surprised the percentage refus ing to offer an opinion wasn’t larger.

“There is a strong strain in mili tary culture not to criticize the commander in chief,” he said.

One contentious area of military life in the past year has been the role religion should play. Some troops have complained that they feel pressure to attend religious services. Others have complained that chaplains and superior offi cers have tried to convert them. Half of the poll respondents said that at least once a month, they attend official military gather ings, other than meals and chapel services, that began with a prayer. But 80 percent said they feel free to practice and express their religion within the military.

[EAT MY ASSHOLE]

Since when is this even a war in the first place??

It was an INVASION, pure and simple.

Now? It's an Occupation.

Imperialism...CATCH THE SPIRIT!

[studly hungwell]

This administration and I, personally, don't think much of polls.

[Nickdfresh]

Yeah, apparently the administration doesn't think much of competence either...

But you believe in online bullshit politicized affirmations by people possibly pretending to be soldiers?

[Roy Munson]

God, I love threads like this. Elly is showing you guys your assholes through a magnifying glass, but be careful you don't drop the magnifying glass INTO your asshole cause you will lose it forever.

It all boils down to this...

We are fighting a war right now. It doesn't fucking matter how or why it started at this point. We are there and we need to WIN THIS WAR HOWEVER POSSIBLE. If we get out, or set a timetable to get out, then WE LOSE.

This is simple...

Dems want us to lose and leave with our tails between our legs.

Reps want to WIN and finish the job.

The Dems are making HUGE asses of themselves right now in Congress with all of this posturing and procrastinating while our troops NEED THE FUCKING MONEY.

History will tell what these shameless assholes are really made of.

[studly hungwell]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yeah, apparently the administration doesn't think much of competence either...

But you believe in online bullshit politicized affirmations by people possibly pretending to be soldiers?

Competence? Online bullshit? You presume much Mr. dfresh. There is a line in the movie 'Men in Black' that I really love. Tommy Lee Jones tells Will Smith, "No, a person is smart, people are stupid." If you saw the movie you know the context. A poll has everything to do with exposure to influence and less to do with actual knowledge. People like you and Ford seem to have a real problem with adherance to an idea. Many, many Americans live their life in this manner. They don't switch positions when its unpopular...they stick to their guns. The idea that one has to be devoid of principles to get along in the world is irrational. How do you take a stand on anything if you don't cling to a truth? An idea? Do you propose that one engage other leaders and cultures with no ground? Nothing to cling to? Totally devoid of an idea of right and wrong? Why, such a person could go along with anything.....couldn't they?

[FORD]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
I've read alot of your posts and I knew it was only a matter of time before this happened. You cling to things which you consider truth which are not.

Such as?


You base your moral supremacy on this facade.

Who do you think I'm claiming "moral supremacy" to? The BCE?? Well, I should hope so. I'm not a treasonous mass murderer.


[The fact that you have sycophants here on the board to support your view gives you the 'strength' you need to spout your Michael Moore bullshit.

What I "spout" is mine. Based on MY research of the facts. I respect Michael Moore a great deal, and love his work, but I don't rely on him or any other one source for my knowledge.


Introspection would serve you, sir. Honest introspection.

I could "introspect" for 40 days and 40 nights straight with no sleep and it wouldn't change my feelings about the BCE/PNAC agenda in the least.


We made a promise to these people....plain and simple.

Again, WHO promised them WHAT, and by WHAT constitutional authority??


You're right, Ford, nobody promised for you. Therefore you are not bound by the promise.

No, you're wrong about that. I am bound. Bound by my love of this country, to save it from the Bush Criminal Empire.


So, feel free to pick this situation apart with allegations of supreme court appointments to power and illegitimate command. A thinking man would be more tact....it is obvious that you are a knee jerk reactionary. Ignorant people respond to these arguments. Always have, always will. You do show some signs of brilliance in your writings....I respect that...but, most of your playbook bullshit leaves much to be desired.

Again, there's no "playbook bullshit". I don't take marching orders from anybody, I merely speak the truth. And the truth is that BCE/PNAC has lied this country into a useless war based on lies, which has killed over 3,200 Americans and 650,000 Iraqis, and has not made either country safer in the process. And the very REAL danger of this insanity expanding into Iran (again, based on LIES) means that I cannot be silent, and I will not be silent. Especially in the face of blatant propaganda campaigns like the one responsible for this thread.


My children will know the value of their word....and, those that deal with them as adults will be safe from deception and hurt. Regardless of how much it hurts to fulfill said word. That's what I call cool.

Your children could die because of the lies you believe, unless this shit is brought to an end. That's what I call UNcool. :(

[Nickdfresh]

What is the definition of "winning" the War at this point?

Why are the Democrats "procrastinating" but reflecting the national will?

And Elly is looking in my asshole? That's hot!

[FORD]

Originally posted by Roy Munson

The Dems are making HUGE asses of themselves right now in Congress with all of this posturing and procrastinating while our troops NEED THE FUCKING MONEY.

History will tell what these shameless assholes are really made of.

The Democrats gave Chimpy a bill that gave another 100 fucking billion to the troops. He refused to sign it.

So if the funding runs out, it's his fault and his fault only.

And if there's no money for the war..........

BRING EM HOME NOW!!!

[studly hungwell]

Originally posted by FORD
Such as?



Who do you think I'm claiming "moral supremacy" to? The BCE?? Well, I should hope so. I'm not a treasonous mass murderer.



What I "spout" is mine. Based on MY research of the facts. I respect Michael Moore a great deal, and love his work, but I don't rely on him or any other one source for my knowledge.



I could "introspect" for 40 days and 40 nights straight with no sleep and it wouldn't change my feelings about the BCE/PNAC agenda in the least.



Again, WHO promised them WHAT, and by WHAT constitutional authority??

[/b]

No, you're wrong about that. I am bound. Bound by my love of this country, to save it from the Bush Criminal Empire.

[/b]

Again, there's no "playbook bullshit". I don't take marching orders from anybody, I merely speak the truth. And the truth is that BCE/PNAC has lied this country into a useless war based on lies, which has killed over 3,200 Americans and 650,000 Iraqis, and has not made either country safer in the process. And the very REAL danger of this insanity expanding into Iran (again, based on LIES) means that I cannot be silent, and I will not be silent. Especially in the face of blatant propaganda campaigns like the one responsible for this thread.



Your children could die because of the lies you believe, unless this shit is brought to an end. That's what I call UNcool. :( [/B]

I'm not as skilled as you at picking apart peoples posts so I will do my best.

Your 1st response: "such as?"

Its pretty clear that you feel that Bush is illegitimate and Gore won the election. I think this is the source for much of your ire. They recounted and recounted and recounted....even after the supreme court decision....nothing changed...and, nobody cried foul.

WMD's: Saddam did in fact have WMD's. How did he gas all those people? So, we didn't find them. Big surprise! We only telegraphed our punch by 6 months or so....didn't we?

As far as my children dying because of what I teach them....I really took exception to that comment. I guess we should keep people alive under any conditions....any are acceptable, unless of course you don't want to have a baby, then abortion is OK. Honor....that's cool. To live forever as a gutless coward?.....a shame greater than death. Therein lies our impasse. Stripped down to its simplest terms.....life or death....your politics contradict themselves.

There are alot of wholes in this arguement....and I do so love debate. Find them.

[FORD]

Originally posted by studly hungwell


As far as my children dying because of what I teach them....I really took exception to that comment.

You interpreted it wrong. I don't wish any harm on your children. The Bush Criminal Empire DOES. Because if they are allowed to continue this madness, with your blessings, then either your children will be drafted to die in their wars, or, once enough of the world is pissed off that they actually DO attack this country, just to stop this fascist war machine, then American civillians will die.

Do you want your children to die for a lie, or live in a BETTER world?

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by studly hungwell


We made a promise to these people....plain and simple.

no promise. we attacked iraq because iraq refused to adhere to U.N. resolutions permitting weapons inspectors. we promised nothing to the iraqis. anything more is spin. end of story.


however, as elly said, it's also completely in the past. and the spilt milk is a good analogy (and maybe even better pictorally;)) regardless of why we put the iraqis in the current situation, the fact is that we put them there.


is it our responsibilty to therefore police iraq until the end of time? no. but at the same time, it wouldn't have been right to leave in 2004, either.

the question is, and i don't have a definitive answer to it, between 2004 and the end of the world, when is the right time for us to leave? (but in all honesty, in this gray world of ours, i think the REAL question is "when is the least wrong time for us to leave...")

[Ellyllions]

Ok, first off, Knuckleboner has it right...the soldiers feel that they made a promise to those people when they took out the Iraqi government and kept seeing insurgency trying to take it's place.

GREAT article Nick! Honestly...but it furthers the above point. What's been happening is that the troops are becoming more and more disconnected from the Administration because of:
1) no nukes found (yes there has been caches of chemical weapons found but no nuclear materials);

2) the insurgency ends up being nothing more than ordinary citizens and in some cases they've killed a lot of civilians because they were "told" that they were armed insurgency....they ended up being insurgency just possibly not armed at the time. (soldiers feel like murderers)

3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

So, the opinion of the Administration (including the darling Democratic Senate) has steadily declined, and the opinion of even being there in the first place is declining.

They're training Iraqis and it takes them 2 times as long to learn as it did their American counterparts. It's a daily struggle to keep the Iraqi soldiers from throwing down their guns and bolting when a fire-fight occurs, or an Iraqi police officer from beating a petty thief within an inch of their life in a market street. It feels like they know what they need to do but the Iraqi's just refuse to try.

BUT, their compassion is greater than ours. They know we're battling over politics over here, they know every possible element is working against them, but they feel like they made the mess and they should clean it up. They don't want to come home feeling like they tore a country down and then left it to ruin. One of the videos the soldier said, "We left them in '91 and they remember that."

Right now, the US Servicemen/and women that are serving in Iraq are mentally disconnected from everything. They don't feel the Administration knows what the fuck they're doing, they know they're having to become somewhat independent and work daily to earn the trust of the Iraqi's that they're surrounded by, and they know the whole world is including them (individually) in their opinion of the war. They're over there alone at this point...and for them to see news coverage of "peaceful" protestors setting fire to a set of stuffed camoflage while an idiot defecates on the flag within 10 feet...well we just alienate them even more.

Now, 2 questions....

1) How come when a video or article or web site is posted here that has information on it that might not be what you agree with, it's touted as being a fraud? Do you really think you're that right in everything? Are you that narrow-minded to believe that everyone on the planet has only one mind-set? Are you really that paranoid to think there's a conspiracy behind everything?

2) Why in the world would anyone be surprised that there are permanent barracks going up in Iraq? There are barracks in every country that we've been at war with since what.....1941? Did you really think we wouldn't have a post in Iraq?

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by FORD
The Democrats gave Chimpy a bill that gave another 100 fucking billion to the troops. He refused to sign it.

So if the funding runs out, it's his fault and his fault only.

And if there's no money for the war..........

BRING EM HOME NOW!!!

The Democrats handed him a bill that funded the war but also funded some pet projects that they needed to make good on that free vacation the lobbyists offered them.

Tell me Ford, what's funding for Spinach got to do with the war?
Don't you think that was a little STUPID?

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Ellyllions

what's funding for Spinach got to do with the war?
Don't you think that was a little STUPID?

i see, you'll support the army. but you don't support our sailors in the navy?!


http://imagecache2.allposters.com/IMAGES/ADVG/90.jpg

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


Tell me Ford, what's funding for Spinach got to do with the war?
Don't you think that was a little STUPID?

A lot less stupid than say.... more tax cuts for the rich being tacked on to a minimum wage increase bill, which the Repukes in Congress did last year, and then tried to use the resulting defeat of the bill to say "Democrats oppose increasing minimum wage" :rolleyes:

But Popeye's favorite vegetable isn't the problem here, and Chimpy knows it. What he really doesn't like about the funding bill is that it contains a concrete exit date for the Iraq occupation.

It's well within the rights of Congress to put reasonable terms on said occupation, if they're expected to fund it. But Monkeyboy doesn't like that.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Um, most troops think Bush is an asshat, and his superficial, temporary plan for "victory," or the "Surge," is not a long term answer...

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2006/dec/29/poll_troops_disapprove_of_bush_on_iraq_majority_op poses_troops_increase

http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php


Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yeah, apparently the administration doesn't think much of competence either...

But you believe in online bullshit politicized affirmations by people possibly pretending to be soldiers?

hhhhmmmm....

[FORD]

Popeye meets Japanese anime......

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nOejYrQ5P0s"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nOejYrQ5P0s" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Guitar Shark]

LOL @ FORD's sig:


Originally posted by Warham
I don't believe there are any less trees on the Earth now than there were 100 years ago.

He didn't really say that, did he?

[FORD]

Yes he did. And he believes it!

Apparently the latest right wing propaganda claims that there are more trees in North America now than when Columbus first stopped by for a visit in 1492. As usual, they don't have a rational explanation for such an irrational estimate.

[Wallyg]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Thanks!

Here's the biggest problem with everything involving this war. There are 2 kinds of people involved in the US side.

There are those who understand a soldier's mentality, a soldier's allegiance to the flag, and the soldier's goals in life.

The opposing side is a society of people who have no CLUE how those that enlist can see honor in self-sacrifice, or allegiance to much of anything.

The sad part is that the soldier understands that their commitments aren't recognized or respected by everyone, but the others work AGAINST the soldier and call it "saving their lives".

Clue, they don't want you to meddle in their missions! They don't want Monday quarterbacking telling them how they're supposed to think differently.

They want their mission to be successful, they want to do a good job, and they want to come home with HONOR.


Brilliant post!!!
A good friend 's son serves in Bagdad and what you wrote is true but what do the "clueless" know about HONOR?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Wallyg
what do the "clueless" know about HONOR?



http://www.newyorkslime.com/bush-moron-chart.gif


Good question.........

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by FORD
A lot less stupid than say.... more tax cuts for the rich being tacked on to a minimum wage increase bill, which the Repukes in Congress did last year, and then tried to use the resulting defeat of the bill to say "Democrats oppose increasing minimum wage" :rolleyes:

Wait a minute...who signed the minimum wage increase?

http://www.wbz1030.com/pages/51488.php?contentType=4&contentId=165045

Democrats Want More for Minimum

NEW YORK -- Democrats Raise Stakes In Minimum Wage Debate

If there was any doubt that this is election season note that members of Congress are scheduled for an automatic $3,300 cost-of-living pay raise the first of the year. And Senate Democratic leader Harry Reid of Nevada is now saying Democrats will block that increase, unless the $5.15 federal minimum hourly wage is raised to $7.25 over the next two-and-a-half years.

"It's not that complicated. Minimum wage - increase it, we'll look at a cost-of-living increase. No minimum wage increase, no cost of living increase for members of congress."

Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid says he's not kidding…

"We're going to do anything it takes to stop their being a congressional pay raise this year."

Members get regular increases pegged to the cost of living. They currently make $165,200 a year. The minimum wage for the country's lowest paid workers is flat - not pegged to the cost of living.

"Since 1997 the minimum wage has been frozen at 5.15 an hour. That's about 10 thousand dollars a year, if you work 40 hours a week. That is unfair and we've had enough of it, and I think the American people have also."

The Republican position has been that boosting the minimum wage would not only hurt employers, but discourage them from additional hiring. The second-ranking Democrat in the Senate, Dick Durbin of Illinois.

"This Congress should not receive a cost-of-living adjustment until the minimum wage workers across America receive an increase in pay. They've been waiting for nine years, that's long enough."

Election-year tactic? Why no, says Durbin.

"We've decided that the only way to catch the attention of the Republican majority of this Congress is to hit 'em where they live."

It's where the Democrats live too, of course.



But Popeye's favorite vegetable isn't the problem here, and Chimpy knows it. What he really doesn't like about the funding bill is that it contains a concrete exit date for the Iraq occupation.

It's well within the rights of Congress to put reasonable terms on said occupation, if they're expected to fund it. But Monkeyboy doesn't like that.

Of course he doesn't like that. Social services calls and says, "Yeah, we're coming to see your house tomorrow. If it's not up-to-par, we're taking your kids." Mommy hangs up the phone and tells her 7 year old, "Help mommy put away her crack pipe and empty beer cans or they'll take you away and leave you with strangers." That's just dumb as hell, Ford!

That's simple. The situation in Iraq is already bad enough, let's announce a withdrawal date! If there was some way to keep the plans a secret then I'd be all for a withdrawal date. But there is no way to create that without putting our troops and the Iraqi's in danger.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
Yes he did. And he believes it!

Apparently the latest right wing propaganda claims that there are more trees in North America now than when Columbus first stopped by for a visit in 1492. As usual, they don't have a rational explanation for such an irrational estimate.

But he said on the "Earth," so apparently he thinks the whole "deforestation" thing (in the Amazon and other places) is a myth.

Ah, the bliss of ignorance. ;)

[FORD]

The troops are IN danger. Two or three of them get killed every day, and those are the "good" days. And even that number is a falsehood, since the BCE falsifies the casualty count by ONLY counting those who actually die in the field, not those who die in the hospital, or even in the chopper on the way to the hospital.

If the REAL number of deaths and seriously wounded (brain injuries, amputees, etc) was ever published, even brainwashed FAUX fans would be making like Jane Fonda tommorrow morning and this shit would be over.

And that is EXACTLY why the BCE is funding propaganda campaigns to create the illusion that "the troops are all shiny happy people being sitting ducks without armor, without one valid reason for being there in the first place".

All this bullshit about "honor" and "integrity" coming from the Busheep. There is no honor or integrity in a LIE.


None.

[scamper]

Maybe if they set a withdrawl date things will settle down, and then when the date arrives they can say just foolin. Just an idea

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by FORD

All this bullshit about "honor" and "integrity" coming from the Busheep. There is no honor or integrity in a LIE.


None.

Have you EVER even MET a real Marine? I mean really even come face to face with anyone in the Military service?

Do you know anything about their core values? If you answered no to any of these questions then you aren't qualified to defend either verbally or non-verbally on anything regarding the war in Iraq or any other such military maneuvers.

And don't give me anymore BCE crap all of the branches were created WAY before your BCE came to "power". Maybe the Scientology aliens will come and whisk you away from all of this soon. But mind your ass, I hear aliens like to probe....

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Have you EVER even MET a real Marine? I mean really even come face to face with anyone in the Military service?

Do you know anything about their core values? If you answered no to any of these questions then you aren't qualified to defend either verbally or non-verbally on anything regarding the war in Iraq or any other such military maneuvers.

You're missing the entire point. The Marines and the soldiers aren't to blame for this insane and illegal clusterfuck. Nobody, to my knowledge, ever said they were - with the possible exception of those pitiful few who definitely DID act dishonorably, like the shit for brains hillbillies at Abu Ghraib.

The majority of them did their jobs the best they could under the circumstances, but that does NOT justify the fact that the circumstances themselves are wrong.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) says that illegal orders can be REFUSED. If a war is illegal, then any order given in that war is arguably illegal as well. Lt. Ahren Watada believes this, so he refused to go. Thanks to him, that question will be debated in court, as it should be.

There is nothing at all "dishonorable" about ending this fucking travesty NOW and bringing the boys home. Nobody I know would accuse them of failure for aborting a so-called (undefinable) mission which they never should have been forced into in the first place.


And don't give me anymore BCE crap all of the branches were created WAY before your BCE came to "power". Maybe the Scientology aliens will come and whisk you away from all of this soon. But mind your ass, I hear aliens like to probe....

Who the hell brought Scientology into this? Have you been over at Links or something??

The BCE is in this discussion because they are the ones who have consistently abused the military over the last 50 years.

The United States military has not been used according to its constitutional role since WWII.

Korea is not the United States. Nor is Vietnam. Nor is Iraq.

This shit needs to end, and the Armed Forces of the United States should NEVER AGAIN be used for any other purpose than defending the United States of America. The one and only exception to that would be contributing troops to a UN multinational relief effort like in Africa, or in the event of a serious national disaster, like the Asian tsunami a couple years back.

Fuck this corporatism enforced by the barrel of a gun shit. There is NOTHING honorable about that.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Roy Munson
God, I love threads like this. Elly is showing you guys your assholes through a magnifying glass, but be careful you don't drop the magnifying glass INTO your asshole cause you will lose it forever.

It all boils down to this...

We are fighting a war right now. It doesn't fucking matter how or why it started at this point. We are there and we need to WIN THIS WAR HOWEVER POSSIBLE. If we get out, or set a timetable to get out, then WE LOSE.



This is simple...

Dems want us to lose and leave with our tails between our legs.

Reps want to WIN and finish the job.

The Dems are making HUGE asses of themselves right now in Congress with all of this posturing and procrastinating while our troops NEED THE FUCKING MONEY.

History will tell what these shameless assholes are really made of.

What the hell is the definition of "winning" this war? What IS the fucking job? When the Iraqi's end their civil war? Do you really think our presence in Iraq is going to make these people get along with each other, in the name of democracy or anything else? Nobody is going to withhold money from the troops regardless of Reid's posturing, and I think you know that. Your wool is showing.

"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Ok, first off, Knuckleboner has it right...the soldiers feel that they made a promise to those people when they took out the Iraqi government and kept seeing insurgency trying to take it's place.

GREAT article Nick! Honestly...but it furthers the above point. What's been happening is that the troops are becoming more and more disconnected from the Administration because of:
1) no nukes found (yes there has been caches of chemical weapons found but no nuclear materials);

2) the insurgency ends up being nothing more than ordinary citizens and in some cases they've killed a lot of civilians because they were "told" that they were armed insurgency....they ended up being insurgency just possibly not armed at the time. (soldiers feel like murderers)

3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

So, the opinion of the Administration (including the darling Democratic Senate) has steadily declined, and the opinion of even being there in the first place is declining.

They're training Iraqis and it takes them 2 times as long to learn as it did their American counterparts. It's a daily struggle to keep the Iraqi soldiers from throwing down their guns and bolting when a fire-fight occurs, or an Iraqi police officer from beating a petty thief within an inch of their life in a market street. It feels like they know what they need to do but the Iraqi's just refuse to try.

BUT, their compassion is greater than ours. They know we're battling over politics over here, they know every possible element is working against them, but they feel like they made the mess and they should clean it up. They don't want to come home feeling like they tore a country down and then left it to ruin. One of the videos the soldier said, "We left them in '91 and they remember that."

Right now, the US Servicemen/and women that are serving in Iraq are mentally disconnected from everything. They don't feel the Administration knows what the fuck they're doing, they know they're having to become somewhat independent and work daily to earn the trust of the Iraqi's that they're surrounded by, and they know the whole world is including them (individually) in their opinion of the war. They're over there alone at this point...and for them to see news coverage of "peaceful" protestors setting fire to a set of stuffed camoflage while an idiot defecates on the flag within 10 feet...well we just alienate them even more.

Now, 2 questions....

1) How come when a video or article or web site is posted here that has information on it that might not be what you agree with, it's touted as being a fraud? Do you really think you're that right in everything? Are you that narrow-minded to believe that everyone on the planet has only one mind-set? Are you really that paranoid to think there's a conspiracy behind everything?

2) Why in the world would anyone be surprised that there are permanent barracks going up in Iraq? There are barracks in every country that we've been at war with since what.....1941? Did you really think we wouldn't have a post in Iraq?

Seriously, WTF are you talking about?

Is Xanax that much of a trip?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Have you EVER even MET a real Marine? I mean really even come face to face with anyone in the Military service?

Yes. I talked to two MPs at a friends wedding years ago...


Do you know anything about their core values? If you answered no to any of these questions then you aren't qualified to defend either verbally or non-verbally on anything regarding the war in Iraq or any other such military maneuvers.

LMFAO. Hun,' your fucking delusional. Sorry, but there it is. The thin self-righteousness of your posts, seeped in self-serving ignorance, is telling to the point of offensiveness...

How about you're not "qualified" to make such overweening, gratuitous generalizations.

The "core values" of the two Marines I met was to go out to a certain lesbian bar so they could pick up bisexual girls for threeways. In short, they were pretty much up there with any men their age, only they were less educated and refined...

And I knew some pretty big cunts when I was in the US Army too, so you can spare me the lecture of the holy martyrs that walk on water, past snipers and IEDs. I don't think most soldiers want to be characterized in that way. I certainly didn't.

I mean, to idolatrize them is silly. And the vast majority that I've met range from severally disgruntled to moderately tolerant with Bush's policies. And people have every right to express their opinion. I think in fact that there is nary a NeoCOn war supported on this board that has ever seen any sort of service, and certainly not any combat. What gives them the right to claim to "support the troops" that are on their third tours because there simply are not enough servicemen to occupy Iraq properly? And then attack anyone posting the Walter Reed scandal article?

Oh, and BTW, I hate to break this to you: but a lot of US "boots on the ground" can't stand the Iraqis whom they often see as corrupted, incompetent, and infiltrated with Sunni resistance and Shiite Militias. I think the idealism presented by these posts is largely contrived by NeoCon Republican partisans seeking to cover Dumbya's ass rather than to seek any sort of solution in Iraq.....


And don't give me anymore BCE crap all of the branches were created WAY before your BCE came to "power". Maybe the Scientology aliens will come and whisk you away from all of this soon. But mind your ass, I hear aliens like to probe....

Really? Like your crap post about Democrats and Al Jazeera "inventing" US War crimes stories? We found chemical weapons in Iraq? Um, sorry, not really. Not the WMDs...

Jesus, easy on the Zoloft...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
You and your fellow Democrats are causing the Al Qaeda supported insurgency to use more catastrophic attacks against us and Iraqi forces. You will see more SVBIED’s with chlorine gas, more VBIED’s against civilians and security forces every time you and other Democrats open your mouths.

I'm not owning up to being a democrat, but I take offense to this statement.

gw&friends have lost all credibility with anyone who pays attention. Their incompetence has cost them any trust that we had in them.

The time has come to remove their hands from the reigns of power.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
It never WAS the "war we went into" because the war we were TOLD we were going into NEVER EXISTED.

Even Poppy Bush knew better......

Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under the circumstances, there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different— and perhaps barren— outcome.

Poppy wrote that in a book in 1998. I despise the man, and for good reason, but he NAILED that one. Too bad his idiot son ignored his words.

NO ONE thought that it would be a roll over and turn into a guerrilla war. Well, no one but generals, military strategists, and other informed individuals. how hard would it have been to secure the main ammo dumps that we knew of? :confused:

And bush is so god-damn correct up there it's mind-boggling. I felt it was a shame to see the UN's authority get violated by the US.

Then again, they were suckling from saddam's teat with all that oil for food money.

sigh. :rolleyes:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I'm just trying to shed some light that it's not the Policians stance that we should be looking to for guidance on this war. The feet on the ground is the BEST source of information.

And it's the one I choose to base my decision on.

No it's not. It's ONE source of information. One that can lead to interesting insights. But to truly understand a regional conflict with global consequences, I think you need to hear from more people than soldiers who are in charge of one street corner and receive access to limited media from filtered sources.

Too bad the CIA didn't listen to you when we needed more human intel and they fucked around with satellites.

Why didn't we see Saddam hiding the WMDs? Incompetence. Who's fault? I wonder what warham thinks...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
There are so many people who do not value the ideas of honor and integrity. These two words represent more than any picture could could show...more than the skill that I have to describe. Its something that many have experienced and know intimately. The Japanese had it right....honor is worth dieing for. It's that big. I support it. I teach my kids, "Always honor your promises, no matter how bad it hurts." Therein lies honor, integrity and respect. Am I on the wrong planet or am I on to something here?

If you're trying to make a pro-war argument, go ahead and look at the "honor and integrity" of the dipshits that got us stuck in this guerilla war.

Give me a fuckin break. :rolleyes:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by studly hungwell
To live forever as a gutless coward?.....a shame greater than death. Therein lies our impasse. Stripped down to its simplest terms.....life or death....your politics contradict themselves.

There are alot of wholes in this arguement....and I do so love debate. Find them.

Hey studly, you need to go get Sun Tzu's The Art of War, and a dictionary, and shut the fuck up.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I'm not owning up to being a democrat, but I take offense to this statement.

gw&friends have lost all credibility with anyone who pays attention. Their incompetence has cost them any trust that we had in them.

The time has come to remove their hands from the reigns of power.

I'm sorry that you're offended, but I didn't write that. That was part of "A word from [Gunnery]Sergeant Krueger, USMC, to Speaker Pelosi
By Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger" that I found.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yes. I talked to two MPs at a friends wedding years ago...

LMFAO. Hun,' your fucking delusional. Sorry, but there it is. The thin self-righteousness of your posts, seeped in self-serving ignorance, is telling to the point of offensiveness...

How about you're not "qualified" to make such overweening, gratuitous generalizations.
You're really not one to talk about self-righeousness, seeped in self-serving ignorance to the point of offensiveness....you actually take pride in stomping around in this board. But, I digress.



I think in fact that there is nary a NeoCOn war supported on this board that has ever seen any sort of service, and certainly not any combat. What gives them the right to claim to "support the troops" that are on their third tours because there simply are not enough servicemen to occupy Iraq properly? And then attack anyone posting the Walter Reed scandal article?

Anyone who sees this or any other war as an instance where people die has a right to be empathetic and supportive. And that's the only part of that paragraph I'm touching. My opinion is just as valid as yours. NeoCon, Moonbat....we're all entitled. I choose the stance that I'm hearing all around me now.


Oh, and BTW, I hate to break this to you: but a lot of US "boots on the ground" can't stand the Iraqis whom they often see as corrupted, incompetent, and infiltrated with Sunni resistance and Shiite Militias.
You're right on target, and that's part of my point of the long post that you quoted saying that I needed Zoloft. They've got the Iraqi's to contend with, but what do they have back home to look forward to? A vast sea of American's calling them "baby killers" and telling them that they can't finish their job. Because that's how they see this, that's how it translates to their ears. I keep hearing how this war is like the Vietnam war, well you're damn right....but it's ALL of the Vietnam war, not just the reason we went there. It's the aftermath too. Count on it, when these soldiers do finally come home, it'll be like 1975 all over again. No welcome home, and all because they were SENT there. Does that make sense?

My whole point? Don't you think we're alienating the same people we claim to be trying to save?


I think the idealism presented by these posts is largely contrived by NeoCon Republican partisans seeking to cover Dumbya's ass rather than to seek any sort of solution in Iraq.....
Of course you do. And that's why I mentioned Scientology....It's all conspiracy unless it's aligned with your way of thinking.



Really? Like your crap post about Democrats and Al Jazeera "inventing" US War crimes stories? We found chemical weapons in Iraq? Um, sorry, not really. Not the WMDs...
"Inventing" US War crimes? Um, that's not what I said at all...I said 3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

I can't help how you translate shit Nick.

We didn't find any chemical weapons? So where's the Chlorine gas, that's being used right now, coming from? But does it really matter? If I were able to prove it through some article or video all of you would dismiss it as being "Busheep" propaganda.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I'm sorry that you're offended, but I didn't write that. That was part of "A word from [Gunnery]Sergeant Krueger, USMC, to Speaker Pelosi
By Gunnery Sgt. Stephen F. Krueger" that I found.

I understand that you didn't write it. I can read the heading of an article
;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

And bush is so god-damn correct up there it's mind-boggling. I felt it was a shame to see the UN's authority get violated by the US.



Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

[Ellyllions]

Nobody is handing anyone their ass.

They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party".

At least they're consistent.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
You're really not one to talk about self-righeousness, seeped in self-serving ignorance to the point of offensiveness....you actually take pride in stomping around in this board. But, I digress.



I may indeed be a tea kettle here.

But how do I take anymore "pride in stomping around this board" than anyone else?


Anyone who sees this or any other war as an instance where people die has a right to be empathetic and supportive. And that's the only part of that paragraph I'm touching. My opinion is just as valid as yours. NeoCon, Moonbat....we're all entitled. I choose the stance that I'm hearing all around me now.

Quite contraire. I never said your opinion wasn't as valid. I think you were the one telling others that they cannot have an opinion.



You're right on target, and that's part of my point of the long post that you quoted saying that I needed Zoloft. They've got the Iraqi's to contend with...

Fine. But maybe that's why their mission sucks and is not workable at this point.

My targets are politicians hiding behind the soldiers, with their ridiculous statements.

Not the soldiers. Hell, I have a lot more empathy for them than that cunt Cheney does..



...but what do they have back home to look forward to? A vast sea of American's calling them "baby killers" and telling them that they can't finish their job....

That's it! Right there. you see, you've really grown to annoy me. Because you write a bunch of solid, if debatable points, then you go and make these retarded statements that have no basis in fact. NOBODY IS CALLING THEM "BABYKILLERS!" Okay, and extreme minority of very few. But the current anti-War movement has been largely pro-soldier, seeing them as victims, not the perpetrators...

"They can't finish their job?" Maybe their job sucks. Maybe most of them, I suspect, think that this thing is a sick joke not worthy of getting blown to hell for?



Because that's how they see this, that's how it translates to their ears.

Who is "they?" Who do you have a right to speak for, other than yourself?


I keep hearing how this war is like the Vietnam war, well you're damn right....but it's ALL of the Vietnam war, not just the reason we went there. It's the aftermath too. Count on it, when these soldiers do finally come home, it'll be like 1975 all over again. No welcome home, and all because they were SENT there. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I can tell their gov't is already underfunding their health-care.

And what does this have to do with the current state of affairs?


My whole point? Don't you think we're alienating the same people we claim to be trying to save?

No. Actually, yes. I think we're alienating them by not debating this enough. The cost of this War in blood and treasure. And the retarded statements of a pResident that is only interested of saving his legacy, and not offering any real solutions to exiting Iraq, so he can pin it on the Democrat that follows...

Isn't that fucking disgraceful? It is to me!:mad:



Of course you do. And that's why I mentioned Scientology....It's all conspiracy unless it's aligned with your way of thinking.

Whatever. If soldiers in Iraq started an anti-War website called www.getusout.org, they be charged with sedition though. But some yahoos, who may or may not be soldiers, can run around trying to blame Democrats, the party that has been out of power for years until last Nov., for all their troubles. I find that very suspicious.




"Inventing" US War crimes? Um, that's not what I said at all...I said 3) At this point, they're so restricted on use of force because there are crazy "watchdog" organizations just waiting to pounce with a report to Al-Jazeera or the Democrats that American soldiers are slaughtering civilians. So they end up "sitting ducks" and soldiers HATE that.

"Crazy watchdog organizations?" Oh come the fuck on baby!:rolleyes: The military investigates its own! Did anyone make up the fact that a few US troops raped a 14-year old girl, then killed her and her entire family? What are we supposed to do? Cover this up so we can show the insurgents that their propaganda is right and make MORE insurgents to kill more of our guys.

BTW, the media also reported that US troops saved a Sunni girl form being raped by our "allied" Shiite run security forces.

Do you know what kind of cred that gives us with the Sunnis we're fighting?


I can't help how you translate shit Nick.

Well, what can I say...


We didn't find any chemical weapons? So where's the Chlorine gas, that's being used right now, coming from? But does it really matter? If I were able to prove it through some article or video all of you would dismiss it as being "Busheep" propaganda.

Um, the chlorine is the kind used in pools. You just get a lot of it together and put it next to a big explosive, and wallah, you have a homemade chemical weapon. This was not what we were looking for...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

Dude, the only ass you "hand" is the one you pry your head out of, dickweed...

And thanks for offering substance to this debate :rolleyes:

I mean, I know you're in awe that someone can actually post more than three sentences, or even three coherent words, for a post without the aid of a cut and spam article.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, heaven forbid the United States does ANYTHING without the approval of the UN.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BTW - it's pretty funny seeing OD and Nick getting their asses handed to them by Elly. Warham and I have done it enough, it's now her turn. :D

uh, number one, read the next sentence

and #2

I don't recall her making any decent retorts to me.

Man you're fuckin clueless.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Nobody is handing anyone their ass.

They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party".

At least they're consistent.

What are you talking about? Give me a fuckin break.

:rolleyes:

Your cliched view of this topic is cute sometimes, but this is big boy talk. I tell BBB the same thing all the time and he doesn't get it. He keeps running his yap.

Like GS mentioned earlier, I gave you a couple good sentences to chew on, and all you could come back to me with was clarifying the author of the article? Like I couldn't read that at the top of the post?

Like I said, give me a fuckin break.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Dude, the only ass you "hand" is the one you pry your head out of, dickweed...

And thanks for offering substance to this debate :rolleyes:

I mean, I know you're in awe that someone can actually post more than three sentences, or even three coherent words, for a post without the aid of a cut and spam article.

What are we gonna do Nick? After reading this thread, its evident that MANY people are totally removed from reality and have nothing left to say.

Really, the debate in here is pathetic these days. I don't say that to insult (very much), I say it to give you people a kick in the ass!!

Read some articles with facts. Try to put together a coherent viewpoint on your own.

:rolleyes:

[BigBadBrian]

See what I mean, people?

Nick and OD got OWNED...big time!!!

The even have to try to keep defending their silly, pathetic pride.

Classic!!!

:killer:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
See what I mean, people?

Nick and OD got OWNED...big time!!!

The even have to try to keep defending their silly, pathetic pride.

Classic!!!

Well, you have no facts to back up any of your other assertions, so why start now?

This is like a microcosm of DC the last seven years.

:rolleyes:

[scamper]

Read some articles with facts. Try to put together a coherent viewpoint on your own.


I see people doing that but when they offer those viewpoints they get slammed by the other side (which ever it is) as stupid, uninformed....when it is their opinion. I don't see how some people refuse to accept the fact that maybe, just maybe their wrong. That's called having a closed mind, it doesn't matter what side your on. More people on this forum need to research both sides, not just the side they THINK is right.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
See what I mean, people?

Nick and OD got OWNED...big time!!!

The even have to try to keep defending their silly, pathetic pride.

Classic!!!

:killer:

Look at BigDumbBrian cuntinue to add nothing to the conversation but retarded, Orwellian cheerleading...


He must feel like it's school again, and he's accidentally slipped into the AP class from the special education resource room, and felt intimidated and bedazzled by his intellectual betters...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by scamper
I see people doing that but when they offer those viewpoints they get slammed by the other side (which ever it is) as stupid, uninformed....when it is their opinion. I don't see how some people refuse to accept the fact that maybe, just maybe their wrong. That's called having a closed mind, it doesn't matter what side your on. More people on this forum need to research both sides, not just the side they THINK is right.

I agree with half of what you said. I rarely see a conservative or right-minded viewpoint here that isn't ill-informed or selfish. Many such viewpoints are based on superstition instead of proven scientific knowlege and common sense. We have to point that out. It might be tough, but that's life.

I think many of the more liberal posters here try to debate and get nothing of substance back from the right.

That said, I'll admit when I'm wrong. That's the result of a decent debate. To LEARN something. I used to learn things from all kinds of posters here. Not so much anymore except learning how ignorant and closed minded some people can be about certain issues.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime

I think many of the more liberal posters here try to debate and get nothing of substance back from the right.

That said, I'll admit when I'm wrong. That's the result of a decent debate. To LEARN something. I used to learn things from all kinds of posters here. Not so much anymore except learning how ignorant and closed minded some people can be about certain issues.

Taking the high road doesn't suit you, OD.

Please point out one time when you've been wrong. There have been plenty. :cool:

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I agree with half of what you said. I rarely see a conservative or right-minded viewpoint here that isn't ill-informed or selfish. Many such viewpoints are based on superstition instead of proven scientific knowlege and common sense. We have to point that out. It might be tough, but that's life.

I think many of the more liberal posters here try to debate and get nothing of substance back from the right.

That said, I'll admit when I'm wrong. That's the result of a decent debate. To LEARN something. I used to learn things from all kinds of posters here. Not so much anymore except learning how ignorant and closed minded some people can be about certain issues.

I think this post is hilarious. I mean teary-eyed, side-splitting, can't breathe funny.

Especially the part about "supersition".

Oh and in reference to this:


Your cliched view of this topic is cute sometimes, but this is big boy talk. I tell BBB the same thing all the time and he doesn't get it. He keeps running his yap.

Like GS mentioned earlier, I gave you a couple good sentences to chew on, and all you could come back to me with was clarifying the author of the article? Like I couldn't read that at the top of the post?

I especially like the "cute" and then the "big boy talk" line.

But my main reason for quoting this was to calmly let you know that the only reason I clarified the author of the article was to let you know that I had no intention of offending you. Sometimes the eyes read faster than we want them to. But now, who cares? I stand by my words, "They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party". And with this last post, you further drive my point home.

If there isn't an argument....find one, right?

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Taking the high road doesn't suit you, OD.

Please point out one time when you've been wrong. There have been plenty. :cool:

Whatever man. You still haven't done anything but stir things up. You've added nothing.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
I think this post is hilarious. I mean teary-eyed, side-splitting, can't breathe funny.

Especially the part about "supersition".

Oh and in reference to this:



I especially like the "cute" and then the "big boy talk" line.

But my main reason for quoting this was to calmly let you know that the only reason I clarified the author of the article was to let you know that I had no intention of offending you. Sometimes the eyes read faster than we want them to. But now, who cares? I stand by my words, "They just give the Democratic party a bad face on this forum with their lack of ability to engage in a debate without the constant name calling and shitty innuendos. And yet expect people to believe that the Democratic party is the "people's party". And with this last post, you further drive my point home.

If there isn't an argument....find one, right?

I know you didn't try to offend me and I know BBB is the reason things are all stirred up.

But you still haven't addressed any of the real points I made or even the ones GS did earlier on.

You just parroted the point that was made in the article you posted, which oddly enough, you've distanced yourself from by making it clear was written by someone else other than youself.

This is like arguing with my girlfriend. It's just retarded.

:rolleyes:

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
I know you didn't try to offend me and I know BBB is the reason things are all stirred up.

But you still haven't addressed any of the real points I made or even the ones GS did earlier on.

You just parroted the point that was made in the article you posted, which oddly enough, you've distanced yourself from by making it clear was written by someone else other than youself.

This is like arguing with my girlfriend. It's just retarded.

:rolleyes:

Nope, we're done.

You keep talking about "points" you've made. I've gone back through and even tried to make points out of the shit you've posted. But all I keep coming up with is one person who has tried very hard to insert himself and got ignored.

[Ellyllions]

Dammit...double post.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Nope, we're done.

You keep talking about "points" you've made. I've gone back through and even tried to make points out of the shit you've posted. But all I keep coming up with is one person who has tried very hard to insert himself and got ignored.

Whatever, like I said, this is just retarded. I really try to debate with you people and you're just not up to the task. It's evident.

I'm going to think twice before I expect anything of substance out of you. I'll still call you on you bullshit though when necessary.

[blueturk]

Once again, what is the "mission" in Iraq? That's all I want to know. What is the definition of "victory"? Can anybody tell me this? Seriously!

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Whatever, like I said, this is just retarded. I really try to debate with you people and you're just not up to the task. It's evident.

I'm going to think twice before I expect anything of substance out of you. I'll still call you on you bullshit though when necessary.

You do what you have to do. But keep in mind that due to your little sexist innuendos, anything you post in retaliation will negate any validity or serious that I give.

So I guess we're even.

[Ellyllions]

Originally posted by blueturk
Once again, what is the "mission" in Iraq? That's all I want to know. What is the definition of "victory"? Can anybody tell me this? Seriously!

I'll take a stab.....Well, we've been told what the mission "was" and yet that seems to have gotten lost in the midst of an unplanned (because no one in the plan room seemed to have figured it plausible for some reason or another) tribal/civil/war of some kind.

As far as the definition of "victory"? I would say that "victory" could only mean that we leave Iraq better than we found it.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions


As far as the definition of "victory"? I would say that "victory" could only mean that we leave Iraq better than we found it.

And that's no longer possible. Chimp & PNAC should have listened to those who told them it never would be. Including his own father, and all the (now retired) generals who certainly know war better than a bunch of draft dodging chickenhawk neocons.

[blueturk]

So it appears that there is no "mission" in Iraq and "victory" (by Ellyion's definition at least) is very likely an impossibility. It would appear that we are staying in Iraq solely to try to validate the Bush/Cheney administration's policies....

"It's bad in Iraq. Does that help?" --George W. Bush, after being asked by a reporter whether he's in denial about Iraq, Washington, D.C., Dec. 7, 20

[FORD]

....or to establish a permanent occupation, as the PNAC plan suggests. You don't spend a billion dollars on a base like "New Babylon" (or the other 13 permanent bases, for that matter) for a temporary occupation that you genuinely want to get out of.

[ODShowtime]

yeah, but the troops say we shouldn't talk about pulling them out. They like helping the Iraqis.

We shouldn't even debate about it. It puts them in harm's way.

[studly hungwell]

I've read the art of was. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze forgive me for the typo.