Chimpy says he will VETO gas price gouging legislation

[FORD]

Will this be enough to wake up the brain-dead 28%???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/plastic_turkeys/1llpissypants.jpg

Bush Threatens Veto Of Gas Gouging Bill
May 24, 2007

By William L. Watts

WASHINGTON (Dow Jones) -- President Bush is likely to veto legislation that would create hefty fines and criminal penalties for gasoline price-gouging, the White House said Wednesday.

The threat came as the House prepared to vote on a Democratic plan aimed at battling rising gasoline prices by requiring the Federal Trade Commission to define "price gouging." The bill would create fines and criminal penalties, including jail time, for industry executives found guilty of gouging.

The White House, in a formal statement of administration policy, said the legislation amounted to price controls that would hinder oil companies and retailers from responding to market signals, potentially worsening fuel shortages.

"Gasoline price controls are an old -- and failed -- policy choice that will exacerbate shortages and increase fuel hoarding after natural disasters, denying fuel to people when they most need it," the White House said, adding that Bush's senior advisers would recommend a veto of the House bill or any similar legislation that makes it to his desk.

The vote comes as lawmakers weigh a number of measures in the face of soaring gasoline prices. The House ignored a veto threat Tuesday to overwhelmingly pass legislation that would allow the Justice Department to sue members of the 11-nation Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, or OPEC, under U.S. antitrust laws.

Democrats defended the anti-gouging package, saying it provides safeguards aimed at protecting small businesses and taking account of supply disruptions created by natural disasters and other problems.

Republicans are "asking this congress to wait until a more perfect time ... to help the American consumer out," said Rep. Bobby Rush, D-Ill. "The American people are suffering right now and they are demanding this Congress take action right now. There can never be a more perfect time for this Congress to take action."

The bill's sponsor, Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich., added a provision to the bill that allows the FTC to pursue price-gouging only after the president has declared an energy emergency. A bill pending in the Senate has the same provision.

Republicans said the addition of the provision was an effort to shore up support for the bill among oil-patch Democrats. The bill is being considered under special rules that require a two-thirds supermajority.

(END) Dow Jones Newswires

05-23-07 1310ET

Copyright (c) 2007 Dow Jones & Company, Inc.

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URL for this article:
http://www.smartmoney.com/bn/ON/index.cfm?story=ON-20070523-000763-1310

[Guitar Shark]

What FORD has done here (add a picture unrelated to the article to make a political point) is exactly the sort of thing the Dems should do here.

Imagine the political points they could score with voters if Bush and the Republicans in Congress vote against ANYTHING designed to reduce gas prices.

Sadly, they'll probably screw it up somehow like they always do.

[ace diamond]

ford, i have been telling people all along that bush,cheney, and bin laden are all profiteering from all of this price gouging.

big oil put a cap on its' supply when ever demand goes up.
this is called a "standard industry practice".

there was enron,the bullshit power shortage out here in so cal in 01,
from which bush and cheney profited.

the military will never cathc bin laden, because if the military has
executive orders to go to the right,
bin laden is warned to go to the left.
he will never be caught alive because 9/11 was an inside job.

if bin laden were captured alive and came clean.........bush and cheney would make nixon and agnew look like saints when he started singing like a canary.

[Big Train]

I agree with their reasoning, we are being gouged. However, the Dems as usual are attacking the problem from the wrong angle.

If they really wanted to get to the heart of the matter, they would go through OSHA or some similar body and tighten up exactly when and how plants can go offline for "routine maintence". There is your gouging right there. You have a huge case of collusion on your hands right there, as all of them have plants which go offline right as the peak driving season starts?

I'm a capitalist and I love my money, but c'mon now..

However, I do wonder why the Dems are not taking this approach. Could it be more than a few of them are in Big Oil's pocket as well?

[FORD]

Mary Landrieu certainly is. But then she's not really a Democrat either.

[studly hungwell]

Here is a dirty little secret....the DNC takes donations from 'the energy industry' too. The difference is, when the Dems recieve money it's from 'the energy industry', when pubs recieve it's from 'BIG OIL'. Same with pharmaceuticals as well.

[steve]

Peak Oil is on the way.
Maybe it's already happened. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in 5 years, who knows exactly, but even if it's in 20 years that's pretty soon.

In Europe folks pay 7 and 8 bucks a gallon, and it's the ONLY reason folks use less gas and are more apt to invest and use public transit there. None of this bullshit about them being so superior becasue they are more eco-friendly, etc etc. They decided long ago that because gas importing was a national security liability that they should persuade folks not to use so much.

It's the ONLY reason they are less relient on Middle East oil than us.
They don't even HAVE "CAFE" standards in Europe. Why? Because they don't work as a means to get folks to consume less gas, only to bankrupt car companies. Thus, GM and Ford make and sell some of the most popular and profitable small gas-thrifty cars in Europe, but cannot sell those same cars here because they would not be profitable.

Our gas consumption rate is a threat to this nation's security.

And we're complaining about $3 a gallon? Even at that price, the average monthly gas bill is still less than half of a person's average car payment.

I'm fairly liberal on most things, but I don't agree with FRAUDING the American people on gas prices.

In fact, we should begin taxing gas more and more. It's the only way we'll stop all of these future wars we're just starting to get into now.

Demanding low gas prices now is a round-about way of justifying high military taxes and wars-pending to secure the foriegn oil fields needed to provide that cheap gas.

[scamper]

Originally posted by steve


In fact, we should begin taxing gas more and more. It's the only way we'll stop all of these future wars we're just starting to get into now.


You do realize that the more gas costs the more your milk and lettuce etc... costs.

[steve]

Originally posted by scamper
You do realize that the more gas costs the more your milk and lettuce etc... costs.

You're right - it's gotta drive to my dinner plate and be farmed with machinery somehow.

But why are we in Iraq right now and not Sudan? Becasue they have oil there. Whatever good intentions went along with the invasion (and that is a whole 'nother debate), no one doubts that the catalyst for caring about Iraq or Venezuela or Iran as opposed to other dictatorships is because of their OIL - which the planet is running out of.

Cheap oil is nice, but from now on, we are going to be invading countries for it. Comfortable with that? We are already living it, but it will get worse unless we are willing to change out habits.

[scamper]

Originally posted by steve
it will get worse unless we are willing to change out habits.

I agree

[FORD]

Steve, there's two reasons why the gas prices must be reigned in.

1) The effect that it has on the price of everything else, dragging the economy down.

2) The fact that the people who can afford these prices the least now have to work two or three jobs just to keep gas in their tanks AND food on the table. Not to mention their other bills. And this is while the greedy oil corporate bastards continue to rack up record profits every quarter, because they have LIED about the supply vs demand issue.

There's no shortage of oil, at least in the short term. Obviously it's NOT a renewable resource and we need to stop using the shit. But driving the American people into bankruptcy while the corporations profits exponentially increase is NOT the solution.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
...
If they really wanted to get to the heart of the matter, they would go through OSHA or some similar body and tighten up exactly when and how plants can go offline for "routine maintence"....

Oh shit! If OSHA gets in there, we'll be paying $8.00 for all the violations they'll find...:D

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by FORD
Steve, there's two reasons why the gas prices must be reigned in.

1) The effect that it has on the price of everything else, dragging the economy down.

2) The fact that the people who can afford these prices the least now have to work two or three jobs just to keep gas in their tanks AND food on the table. Not to mention their other bills. And this is while the greedy oil corporate bastards continue to rack up record profits every quarter, because they have LIED about the supply vs demand issue.

There's no shortage of oil, at least in the short term. Obviously it's NOT a renewable resource and we need to stop using the shit. But driving the American people into bankruptcy while the corporations profits exponentially increase is NOT the solution.

How do you propose they "reign" in gas prices?

[Nickdfresh]

By kicking it Beijing style and executing oil and gas executives for corruption?

[Lqskdiver]

I guess that's a start.

Any more bright ideas, Greenspan?

[WACF]

Originally posted by scamper
You do realize that the more gas costs the more your milk and lettuce etc... costs.


I do not know about down there but up hear Gas is much higher than Diesel...so truckers are not feeling as bad a pinch as the rest of us.

The cheapest I have seen Diesel here this week is .87/L while all gas is up to $1.21 per litre..down from $1.25 last weekend.

The same debate goes on about regulating prices but is it the government's job in a capatalist system.
While we can all agree we are getting fucked I think iit s more up to the consumer...ban certain companies until they need to lower the price to compete.

[WACF]

....Or do what Nick suggested...that is what may actually bring change.

[FORD]

I'm all for executing the oil bastards myself. I was for that before I heard of the Chinese case.

As far as I'm concerned, they are committing high treason by deliberately trashing the national and world economy through their greed. And last time I checked, the death penalty applied to treason.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Oh shit! If OSHA gets in there, we'll be paying $8.00 for all the violations they'll find...:D

Violations, workmens comp suits etc..

This is true, but you gotta pick your poision.

[ace diamond]

Originally posted by WACF
....Or do what Nick suggested...that is what may actually bring change.

that would be an effective start.......the question then becomes"where do we go from here?"

[Big Train]

10 dollar gas is the only way to get to mass produced renewable energy.

It moves people who aren't "tree huggers" into the fold and changes the economics of scale. If there are millions of people who want say solar power (I'll keep my precious biodiesel out of the conversation lol..), there is incentive to make the changes necessary on a mass scale. With the scale comes cost reductions and further expansion.

Take heating costs. Wood stove sales are up something like 200% in the last two years in the midwest, faster than they can be made. Cords of wood are just plain cheaper than heating oil. It reached that tipping point.

WACF just said the phrase "Feeling the pinch". Feeling the bleeding gunshot hole in the budget is what is going to do it. A pinch you can live with.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
10 dollar gas is the only way to get to mass produced renewable energy.



I said in here over a YEAR ago that gas is too cheap in the US.

It should be twice what it is now , but with most of it going back into research, infrastructure, light rail, border security, etc, etc.


It's beyond time to regulate the BIG OIL INDUSTRY MACHINE.

FORD's right, and they're literally driving us to WAR.

Let 'em choose. Regulation or Redaction.

*** Exemptions of course would be plenty, and fraud and graft would ensue. duh.

But the path we're on now doesn't end well under any scenario.

Play it out to the end, and this administration's "war on terra" starts to make sense.

Good thing them terraists all happen to live on big pools of oil.

:cool:

[Big Train]

Lounge,

I agree with you except for the point of where the profits go.

There is already plenty of research and prototypes out there. All they need at this point is private investment or the public markets. The demand and upside for the logical and easily implementable ones (biodiesel, solar) only need a small push to reach mass scale. Others, such as wind, might take more government intervention (for things like land use etc..).

It's all there, but there are a lot of fence sitters driving gasoline V8 pickups because it just doesn't hurt enough yet.

[LoungeMachine]

WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/223/


BT is absolutely right [here.]

Fuck, that pisses me off.

:gulp:

[Steve Savicki]

Gas has a role to play in this role... yet the same history continues...

[Big Train]

Thanks for the credit.

My personal opinion is that the electric car killed the electric car. It was a stupid design. I liken it to string up tons of individual light bulbs to light up your backyard.

While some of the innovations of the electric car absolutely SHOULD be part of EVERY car design (regenetrative braking for ex-no idea if I spelled that correctly), that design ultimately wasn't practical enough to replace existing cars and trucks.

10 gas is good for the bad press alone, let them keep their profits.

[FORD]

Again, if the entire economy wasn't so hopelessly bound to petroleum products (due to the fact that every method of shipping burns the shit) then I might be agreeable to ridiculous gas prices.

But it's the poorest people who suffer. Even if they can take the bus to work - and if they have to work 2 or 3 jobs, that's not going to be easy. But even then, consider the poor folks food budgets. Whether they're using cash or food stamps at the grocery store, the amount of money they have to spend hasn't increased in the last 7 years, but the price of food has doubled at least in most cases. How is it fair to ask more of these people, when they're already paying most of the price.

And I mean that in more ways then one, since it ain't the rich fucks who are losing their sons, brothers, fathers, mothers, and daughters in this insane and illegal fuckup of a war.

How about $10/gal gas for Busheep and $1.50/gal gas for the rest of us? I'd say that's fair.

[steve]

Originally posted by FORD
...And this is while the greedy oil corporate bastards continue to rack up record profits every quarter...
Ford, you are correct about the oil executives being greedy, but it does not refute Peak Oil. Don't take my word for it, don't take the greedy oil execs word for it. Look up info for yourself. Yes, the Oil Execs are the carpetbaggers of our current day. But just as the carpet baggers only took advantage of the fact that there was a Civil War, Oil Execs are taking advantage of the beginning of Peak Oil.


Originally posted by FORD
...There's no shortage of oil, at least in the short term.

Where have you been? There's no more oil in the US. Our former biggest supplier, Mexico, has recently passed their peak oil production and is now seeing declines of almost 10% a year. Why do you think we went to Iraq?! You of all people, know why. Just look at the numbers: As recently as the early nineties, we still were a majority domestic oil producer (shortly before Gulf War I). Now, it's what, 15-20% domestic production? I could be slightly off, but that's about the ballpark. Is that a coincidence?

I almost want to say, "If you want cheap oil, you want wars to get it" (with some sort of angry exclaimation point!), but this, to me, puts too high a moral burden on peoples' mere shocking disbelief that our way of life is coming to an end. I prefer to keep beating the obvious truth (we're running out of oil) into folks' heads, no matter how hard it is to accept.

You've got to put aside the Bush administration and do a google search on the subject, think about it fresh, read what the geologists, scientists, economists, etc have to say (the oil industry is far more optimistic than any of them - trust me, they are not the ones pushing peak oil-their stocks would collapse!). There is plenty of info out there and even the most optimistic projections are for peak oil in 20 years or so - which might as well be tomorrow considering how slowly a society can reinvent it's foundation.

That said, oil production (barrels out of the ground) was higher in 2005 than either 2006 or 2007.

Now...back to taxing gasoline (incremented slowly over 8 years) in a desperate attempt to change our habits to avoid going to war against Venezuela, Nigeria, and Iran too...

My concept is this:
1. ALL gas tax money goes to suport the military budget.
2. After 8 years, the military budget/"War on Terror" is then 100% supplied by the new flat Federal gas tax.
3. Federal income taxes are CUT (progressively more than 50% for the poor, 30% for the wealthy) -since almost half the Federal income tax revenue goes to the military budget and war on terror.

4. The Federal Gas Tax is dubbed the "Patriot Tax" and all those against are dubbed unpatriotic ;).

The choice is ours: use less gas or start fighting constant wars to keep it cheap.

Plus, this gives folks who don't support a certain war a true means to protest it.

I don't deny that this would mean short term pain while our energy usage, land development practices, and transport modes find new equilibriums, but it is certainly better than constant war, no??

[FORD]

How about higher gas prices ONLY in "red states"??

It's not right to ask the people who did not want this bullshit war to pay for it.

I'm well aware that the LONG TERM supply of oil is fucked. When I say short term, I'm referring to all the lies these fucking bastards tell about refineries and pipelines, when the only reason these things aren't producing enough is that THEY deliberately shut them down to keep the gas prices artificially high in the first place.

The only time during this Fraudministration where there was ever TRULY even a temporary loss of oil supply was the immediate aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, where the Gulf oil ports were temporarily shut down. And even then, Chimpy refused to open up the oil reserves so not to cause a drop in the supply.

Iraq was not about ensuring the continuation of "cheap oil". The typical right wing Toby Keith loving shitheads cheered on the invasion, because that's what they thought the result would be. As it was when Bush Sr fraudulently raised the price of gas in the fall of 1990, and then dropped again once his invasion of Iraq was over.

But this time control of the oil supply was for different reason...... The Big 4 multinational oil companies want to control the price and keep it high. And to do that, they must control the supply. That's why Iran and Venezula are also targets. Especially Venezuela, because Chavez nationalized the oil, and has even sold it to poor people in the US. And we can't have that, can we?

[Big Train]

Originally posted by FORD
How about higher gas prices ONLY in "red states"??

It's not right to ask the people who did not want this bullshit war to pay for it.



By that same logic, it's not right to allow those who did not fight for it (yes, nick and whoever else, that includes ME) to be allowed to consume it. So basically on soliders should be allowed to drive.

Makes no sense right? If this Peak Oil stuff is true, then what I'm saying about demand and alternative fuel will create such a demand, it will happen sooner than later.

Ford, you have a point, the poor always suffer the most. However, offer them option b, new forms of cheap energy and basic math dictates they will gravitate towards it as fast as possible.

Demanding cheaper oil or sanctions, which results in cheaper oil only slows that natural process down.

The real question is: What happens after Peak Oil? Mideast instability like never before. Why do you think all those governments are so diviserified with those profits? Those poor in those countries will continue to suffer the most.

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by FORD

I'm well aware that the LONG TERM supply of oil is fucked. When I say short term, I'm referring to all the lies these fucking bastards tell about refineries and pipelines, when the only reason these things aren't producing enough is that THEY deliberately shut them down to keep the gas prices artificially high in the first place.


Where do you get your "FACTS"...from the Bizarro Times??? Find me solid evidence that they deliberately shut down to keep gas prices up. Maybe Erin Brokobitch can get on the case.

Listen, the US has not built any new refineries in over 30 years!!! That was in the seventies when ol peanut brain Carter was running the show. Then after it is built it takes a couple of decades for a refinery to see any ROI. If they do shut down, it is because of high maintenance and repair on old equipment.

We import more gas now than ever before from the latin countries as well as Saudi and other parts.. And due to the low quality refining methods from other countries we are forced to pay more $$'s as an incentive to get them to clean up the shit.

It's all about the dependancy and the demand. Building more refineries in the US is a huge hassle due to government red tape and enviromental issues. No one wants to go through that headache.

And drilling in our backyard? How dare we even think about it. Hell, on my way to work I drove by 2 drilling platforms in the middle of some fields close to a Wal-Mart. Where's the fuss? Why can't we get the oil that is out in the middle of nowhere??

Tell you what, the next time any of you sumbitches go up to visit the prestine natural landscape of Alaska's ANWR, I will retract any statement about drilling. Cuz we all know how much of a commodity that frozen tundra is.

[Guitar Shark]

FORD, you have truly gone off the deep end.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Big Train

My personal opinion is that the electric car killed the electric car. It was a stupid design. I liken it to string up tons of individual light bulbs to light up your backyard.

While some of the innovations of the electric car absolutely SHOULD be part of EVERY car design (regenetrative braking for ex-no idea if I spelled that correctly), that design ultimately wasn't practical enough to replace existing cars and trucks.



exactly. in a time where gasoline was still relatively cheap, the electric car was a small vehicle, that had very limited range and had to be fully recharged each night.

so, at BEST, it was only marketable to people who had garages and who had another car in the household. the electric car was a novelty that had no significant consumer base.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
FORD, you have truly gone off the deep end.

When it costs $70 to fill my gas tank, that will happen to you :(

[FORD]

Originally posted by Big Train


My personal opinion is that the electric car killed the electric car.


I thought it was the Stone Cutters?? :confused:

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[knuckleboner]

ha ha!

ford's definitely right on that conspiracy theory!

(fucking steve guttenburg!)

[Big Train]

No Ford...but it is true, they are keeping Martians under wraps.

[Steve Savicki]

<center>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/noonbear/gouging.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/noonbear/cheaperthangas.jpg</center>

Originally posted by FORD
When it costs $70 to fill my gas tank, that will happen to you :(
Wouldn't hiring a tow truck be cheaper than $70?

[Angel]

I've seen mention of your imported oil from South America, the mideast, etc... but do ANY of you know who your biggest supplier of oil is?

[knuckleboner]

(shsssh! we're 0-2 at invading you guys. you know we're not going to rock the oil boat, eh!)

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by Angel
I've seen mention of your imported oil from South America, the mideast, etc... but do ANY of you know who your biggest supplier of oil is?

There was a study back in 04-05 that stated that Canada was our largest supplier an Algeria came in second. I'm sure it is still the case. But from what I understand, a lot of our own crude is sent to Canada and refined as sent back to us...at a markup of course. Again, having to do with lack of refineries in US.

What does a liter of gas go for over in Leaf country?

[steve]

From the DOE.gov website...
Crude Oil Imports (Top Countries)
(Thousand Barrels per Day)
2006 stats:
CANADA 1,732
MEXICO 1,722
SAUDI ARABIA 1,356
NIGERIA 1,191
VENEZUELA 1,197

...so basically, of our 5 biggest supplies, more than half comes from countries with oppressive dictatorships.

N I C E.


And speaking of Canada, that is an example of a place with a TON of oil (tar sands), but oil that is increasingly very expensive and energy intensive to extract and produce.

[Lqskdiver]

Mexico's peso is kicking the dollars ass right now. Alot of that has to do with the all the oil they are refining. They also just hit a huge find in the Gulf as well.

Like I said, we produce and keep very little. Until that changes WE ARE DEPENDANT ON FOREIGN OIL.

[Nickdfresh]

So Jimmy Carter was right. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_crisis.html) We should have just ate it and subsidized synthetic oil production. It was an expensive proposition, but then again, as Carter put it: "when we enter the moral equivalent of war..."

[Angel]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
What does a liter of gas go for over in Leaf country?

Varies across the country, we're paying around 120.9 right now.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
Mexico's peso is kicking the dollars ass right now.

The US dollar is really taking a slide. We're at $0.93.19 at close today, and their predicting we'll be at par or higher before long.

[WACF]

http://www.gasbuddy.com/

A cool site for checking what your neighbors are paying.


We are pushing Ethanol up here but our limits are much lower than the US.

I am unconvinced on it.

It takes just as much energy to create it and your fuel prices become just a volatile because you are at nature's mercy for your crop.

A bad crop year and look out...

[Big Train]

So, Canadiens are gouging us? Figures...Sorry haven't had time to Canada bash in a while.

Stocks did close at a record high today, we might note.

Gas prices are high, but the economy is showinga lot of underlying strength and nobody knows when the China rally will fall apart, although it appears sooner than later. No worries.

These things are long term concerns and over the long term we need to come up with viable, domestic solutions. There are signs of that happening everywhere. Enjoy it now Canada!!

[WACF]

Big oil is gouging Canada too.

I pay $1.21/litre myself.
That is $4.59 a US gallon...that is most likely a buck more per gallon than you pay...and we have the fucking oil!

We need another refinery...but just like you guys the hoops ya gotta run through to make a new one viable are holding it back.

We have been "talking" about building one here for years.
Much like you guys...I believe while you have been talking about it the Saudis have built one and expect you to buy the finished product.

Our Socialist Provincial government even considered building one to subsidize the people in our province but it never got off the ground.

As it is we have a CO-OP refinery by Angel's city a few hours from here.
The nice thing about buying it's fuel is every June you get a rebate cheque of about .05/litre bought for the year.
Not much but it buys ya a tank of gas or a decent supper.

[Big Train]

With the raw materials you guys have for alternative fuels (Biofuels, ethanol), it simply amazes me such a "progressive" country hasn't gotten it together to do it. Third world nations are way ahead of first world ones on this issue.

I understand we don't give a fuck if we can afford, but what's your excuse?

[Angel]

Originally posted by Big Train
With the raw materials you guys have for alternative fuels (Biofuels, ethanol), it simply amazes me such a "progressive" country hasn't gotten it together to do it. Third world nations are way ahead of first world ones on this issue.

I understand we don't give a fuck if we can afford, but what's your excuse?

We're not that much different, remember that BT. Our governments make huge dollars from oil... perhaps that's why we aren't any further ahead in this regard.

[WACF]

Originally posted by Big Train
With the raw materials you guys have for alternative fuels (Biofuels, ethanol), it simply amazes me such a "progressive" country hasn't gotten it together to do it. Third world nations are way ahead of first world ones on this issue.

I understand we don't give a fuck if we can afford, but what's your excuse?


Cost is a big part of it...investment.

The things is too you guys have been building it...meanwhile we study it.
Then...our investers say perhaps since you already have built it, perhaps we should just buy it.
Also...in our part of the world the season allows for only one crop per year...China has 3.

Plus...Ethanol needs high moisture grain...not every spot in Canada is rich in that department.
The best thing that could happen is if they built the plants by feed lots but that does not always happen.

Supposedly an Ethanol plant is going up 4 hrs from here...we will see if that pans out.

Then like I said...one really bad crop year and look out!
You are also competeing for animal feed...pushing up the prices and hurting the ranchers.

[WACF]

...and like Angel said...our government at a Federal level...and Provincial... are making tax money on the price.

As much as they may want to do something they are enjoying the extra cash,

[Big Train]

For ethanol, that's a fine argument (as much as I think ethanol is a completely crappy way to make fuel-harms the envoirnment more than it helps). However, biofuels, utilizing various kinds of feed stocks (animal byproducts, vegetable oil, switch grass), I have no idea why you aren't investing in. I can buy a kit for 4k US to make it. A government with millions of acres of forest and fields, I'll never understand why they aren't trying to do something with it.

[steve]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So Jimmy Carter was right. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_crisis.html) We should have just ate it and subsidized synthetic oil production. It was an expensive proposition, but then again, as Carter put it: "when we enter the moral equivalent of war..."

Jimmy Carter was WAY right and way ahead of his time.
From his speech you linked to:

"Point one: I am tonight setting a clear goal for the energy policy of the United States. Beginning this moment, this nation will never use more foreign oil than we did in 1977 -- never. From now on, every new addition to our demand for energy will be met from our own production and our own conservation. The generation-long growth in our dependence on foreign oil will be stopped dead in its tracks right now and then reversed as we move through the 1980s, for I am tonight setting the further goal of cutting our dependence on foreign oil by one-half by the end of the next decade -- a saving of over 4-1/2 million barrels of imported oil per day."

No one freaking listened, everyone made fun of him for suggesting we "conserve" limit our dependence on foreign oil. "UnAmerican" we said.

Instead we got Raagan, who gave ARMS to Iran for hostages, and decided to play dominos with the Middle East and get in bed with the Saudis and Saddam Hussein - all in the name of MORE, not less, foreign oil.

And we ate it up.

The irony is we still have a chance to listen to Carter, but people won't until the shit hits the fan - which could be anywhere from 10 to 50 years from now.

Regardless, prepare for endless oil wars like Iraq until we decide to make our "energy consumption moon shot".

But they choice is, WHEN do we make this moon shot??
Now, when the economy is relatively good and we could taper in gas taxes over a long period of time? This is the economic equivalent of replacing all of our bones with Atimantium.

Or, do we wait till a great SHOCK (anywhere from 10 to 50 years away) - economists have estimated it will take only a 10% supply reduction to jolt the entire planet into a major major recession - something economies could not react to without years advance notice. What do we do then, invade Venezuela?? Saudi Arabia??

You want cheap gas, you got it. Make your bed, folks.