Some good info on eddie's brown sound...

[Rat Salade]

http://www.legendarytones.com/brownsound.html

with a nice little diagram of Eddie's setup for the the 1st van halen album.

http://www.legendarytones.com/EVHDiagram.jpg

[cdwillis]

It would be helpful if you added this information for that diagram:


Typical Early Edward Van Halen Studio Setup Diagram

1. MXR e.q. set up as midboost (* only occasionally used depending on the guitar)
2. Marshall plexi Super Lead, unmodified, although simple modifications such as a cascaded input stage or added gain through capacitor/resistor exchanges may have been made.
3. Ohmite VARIAC set to approximately 90 Volts A/C
4. Dummy Load
5. MXR Flanger
6. MXR Phase 90 (** This was sometimes put in front of the amp instead of after the dummy load)
7. Echoplex EP3
8. (***Equalization sometimes added prior to power amp)
9. H & H power amp
10. Various Marshall cabinets (sometimes two, sometimes four) used with various Celestion and JBL speakers

[Rat Salade]

yea, realized that, but i'm lazy :lol:

[DLRdelight!]

man i saw that ages ago. i had forgotten about that site

[BrownSound1]

The effects chain is something I've heard many conflicting stories on. I've been told several times that the Phase 90 and Flanger were in FRONT of the amp, which actually makes a lot more sense to me. Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them, and that's what you got to have going to the power amp. Also, I've heard some amps from around the same serial number as Ed's amp, and they have that tone, regardless of the shit listed in that diagram. 12XXX series '68 Super Lead is what you need, or a facsimile thereof. :D

[Redballjets88]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
The effects chain is something I've heard many conflicting stories on. I've been told several times that the Phase 90 and Flanger were in FRONT of the amp, which actually makes a lot more sense to me. Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them, and that's what you got to have going to the power amp. Also, I've heard some amps from around the same serial number as Ed's amp, and they have that tone, regardless of the shit listed in that diagram. 12XXX series '68 Super Lead is what you need, or a facsimile thereof. :D



when it comes to people talking about eds tone, i only listen to you

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by Redballjets88
when it comes to people talking about eds tone, i only listen to you

I appreciate that, but don't only listen to me. :D There are several guys who have nailed that tone in the amp builders world. Funny how none of them use a setup like the one listed on that page is all I'm saying. :D

[Rat Salade]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
The effects chain is something I've heard many conflicting stories on. I've been told several times that the Phase 90 and Flanger were in FRONT of the amp, which actually makes a lot more sense to me. Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them, and that's what you got to have going to the power amp.

that's what the dummy load was for.

A dummy load is a device used to simulate an electrical load, usually for testing purposes.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
The effects chain is something I've heard many conflicting stories on. I've been told several times that the Phase 90 and Flanger were in FRONT of the amp, which actually makes a lot more sense to me. Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them, and that's what you got to have going to the power amp. Also, I've heard some amps from around the same serial number as Ed's amp, and they have that tone, regardless of the shit listed in that diagram. 12XXX series '68 Super Lead is what you need, or a facsimile thereof. :D

True dat. Also everything I've read says Ed didn't start using the H&H/Dummy load set up until the mid-80s...

Let's also not forget the amount of intentional subterfuge regarding his set up over the years...:rolleyes:

[Hyman Roth]

Originally posted by jhale667
True dat. Also everything I've read says Ed didn't start using the H&H/Dummy load set up until the mid-80s...

Let's also not forget the amount of intentional subterfuge regarding his set up over the years...:rolleyes:

Yeah...like taking 3 year old guitar strings and boiling them. How many of us did that when we were kids only to find the improved brightness in the strings only lasted 20 minutes until they sounded deader than ever and the process took about 2 hours when you consider de and re-stringing!!


Originally posted by BrownSound1
The effects chain is something I've heard many conflicting stories on. I've been told several times that the Phase 90 and Flanger were in FRONT of the amp, which actually makes a lot more sense to me. Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them, and that's what you got to have going to the power amp. Also, I've heard some amps from around the same serial number as Ed's amp, and they have that tone, regardless of the shit listed in that diagram. 12XXX series '68 Super Lead is what you need, or a facsimile thereof. :D

Personally, I never bother with an effects loop. Even with a signal processor I run it directly in front of my amp (if that's the same thing as saying in between my guitar and the amplifier in the signal chain...I'm not to bright with technical stuff...although sometimes I am technically stiff).

Its just more "in your face". And if there is a phrase besides "brown sound" that could be applied to Ed's old sound, I would say its "in your face".

[Rat Salade]

having effects in front of the amp subjects the effects to the compression/distortion of the power tubes. this kills effects like flangers - flangers have a cool effect if the sweep is not distored by the power tubes. completely different sound than in front of the amp.

[Hyman Roth]

Yes - I agree - completely different. Although often I have enough of my own distortion going on so as not notice any inadvertant clippling. And if I am going for the clean sound - I can do without the flange and phase - my Roland JC120 takes care of the chorus for me in that situation. I have the JC bi-amped with a marshall head and 4x12 when everything is set up just right (currently my guitar rig is in two seperate pieces).

[Rat Salade]

right now all i have is a Laney Pro Tube Lead AOR, and a yamaha cabinet with 4 X 12" celestion greenbacks.

I usually use my Dean Razorback because of the Dimebucker pickup and with the gain and preamp maxed - it gets damn close to the raw EVH sound of Van Halen I/II.

If i want a rounder sound i plug in my gibson black beauty.

right now i'm working on a strat with an EVH custom shop pickup, we'll see how that sounds.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Yeah...like taking 3 year old guitar strings and boiling them. How many of us did that when we were kids only to find the improved brightness in the strings only lasted 20 minutes until they sounded deader than ever and the process took about 2 hours when you consider de and re-stringing!!


Funny, I always thought the boiling thing was to pre-stretch them for the Floyd Rose...though I never tried it.
Too much of a pain in the ass. I just stretch the crap out of them as I'm stringing it...
I've teched for one well-known bassist who swears by boiling his strings...

The general consensus is time based effects (flangers, chorusing, delays) sound better in a loop as they are vulnerable to gain changes.
Any gain-altering or envelope effect you're of course gonna want in front of your amp.
I currently run an EVH Phase 90 and a Line 6 MM-4 and DL-4 in my Boogie's loop, and it sounds amazing...:cool:

[DLRdelight!]

you guys are going to think im a fucking idiot for asking this but what exactly do you mean by "in front of the amp"

do you mean pluuged in before the amp???

[jhale667]

Originally posted by DLRdelight!
you guys are going to think im a fucking idiot for asking this but what exactly do you mean by "in front of the amp"

do you mean plugged in before the amp???

You are correct! :D

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/cluelessness.jpg

I keed! I make joke with you! :lol:

[GO-SPURS-GO]

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
Yeah...like taking 3 year old guitar strings and boiling them.


:lol:

That quote made me laugh so hard and brought back tons of memories. There were many times when would steal 20 dollars out my dad’s wallet and then I would come to a tough decision, buy a bag of weed or a pair of new bass strings. I think you guys know from my incoherent babble what I chose. I might have been too stoned to tell, but I always thought that boiling my bass strings did work.

[GO-SPURS-GO]

Originally posted by jhale667
I've teched for one well-known bassist who swears by boiling his strings...


Billy Sheehan?

[Panamark]

Isn't there also some conjecture on the variac (number 4)
in this diagram ?
If he was running a dummy load, why the need to lower
the AC input ? I notice they dont specify what load it is ??

THD, Mr Brownsound ??

Do they still sell those H & H poweramps driving the
Cabs/celestions ??

[Hyman Roth]

Originally posted by GO-SPURS-GO
:lol:

That quote made me laugh so hard and brought back tons of memories. There were many times when would steal 20 dollars out my dad’s wallet and then I would come to a tough decision, buy a bag of weed or a pair of new bass strings. I think you guys know from my incoherent babble what I chose. I might have been too stoned to tell, but I always thought that boiling my bass strings did work.

I found with bass strings it worked a bit better IF the strings were old and dead first. You could get about 2 or 3 good hours of bright tone if you boil them and clean all the grit our from between the wounds. But with brand new Rotosound (which suck these days, but that's what I was using back then, I use GHS Boomers for my 5 string now) - if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

BTW - the other day I was bored and checked out your MySpace. I listened to all 4 tunes. I REALLY thought it was good, good stuff - especially the first song about Lolita....you have a great voice too.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
Those pedals won't handle a line level signal without distorting them


I've done it without distorting the signal, but the noise level is unmanagable. I believe he had them in front of the amp...

BTW, I thought he used a '67 Super Lead...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

BTW again...

I have a set of Bass Strings i've been boiling for years...

They sound great each time...


:elvis:

[jhale667]

Originally posted by GO-SPURS-GO
Billy Sheehan?

Nope, haven't yet had the honor of working for him, but have met him several times...very cool guy! :baaa:

[Eyes of the Night]

Great thread ...

[GO-SPURS-GO]

Originally posted by Hyman Roth
I use GHS Boomers for my 5 string now)

I use those strings too.

BTW - the other day I was bored and checked out your MySpace. I listened to all 4 tunes. I REALLY thought it was good, good stuff - especially the first song about Lolita....you have a great voice too.

THANK YOU. I wrote the lyrics and music for “Sweet Lolita” but I didn’t sing it. I played bass, acoustic and rhythm guitars on that CD and all the vocals were done by Deon Clark. He also was the drummer too. Thanks for taking the time to listen to our songs. :cool: If you get bored again, you can listen to rest of that CD at this web-site.
http://www.garageband.com/artist/blennd

[Don Corleone]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
12XXX series '68 Super Lead is what you need, or a facsimile thereof. :D

If I remember rightly the 12XXX series was a transitional series in terms of the circuitry that Marshall was using in the amps.

[Hyman Roth]

Originally posted by ELVIS
BTW again...

I have a set of Bass Strings i've been boiling for years...

They sound great each time...


:elvis:

'pends what sound you're going for. If you want to sound like John Entswistle in 1996, your approach wont work (maybe for that first hour each time after you boil and re-string it...dunno, I never boiled a set of strings twice...).

On the other hand, if you are going for the Brian Wilson summer of love sound - have at it!! But eventually, one of your strings is going to break and then I recommend, if I may, that you replace the set, not just the broken string.

GO SPURS GO - will do!

And I am not qualified with knowledge to put this idea forward, but to keep this thread rolling - re: 12XXX '68 Marshall Super lead circuitry, didn't Ed have his amp circuitry modified before the first album? That may be a stupid or at least an irellevent question.

EDIT: and how much stock in the brownsound was the pick up responsible for? Didn't Ed used to rip out a PAF from a 335 and stick it in his bastard strat?

[rustoffa]

Don't forget.....Ed played a piece of shit guitar with the action @ ten stories. OUT OF TUNE.

He really wasn't lying about his head being modded....
:D

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by Rat Salade
that's what the dummy load was for.

A dummy load is a device used to simulate an electrical load, usually for testing purposes.

The dummy load dropped the signal down to a LINE level. That's usually what you'd use with rack effects, not stomp boxes. The way this dummy load works is you have the big resistors to handle the output of a Marshall wide open. Then a bit of signal was tapped to get the equivalent of the line level for input into the power amp. A line level is too hot for a stomp box, and you'll get a nice shitty sounding fuzz by doing this.

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I've done it without distorting the signal, but the noise level is unmanagable. I believe he had them in front of the amp...

BTW, I thought he used a '67 Super Lead...


:elvis:

'67? That amp is the almost identical to a Super Bass, and it has a shared cathode on the front. Not enough gain my friend to get Ed's tone. His amp was a '68 12xxx series amp, which as Don pointed out was a transitional period for Marshall. They were going from the '67 types towards the '69 circuit. Lots of weird things on the 12XXX series from '68.

I should point out though that a '67 could have been used in the club days. If you listen to the old boots you can tell that his tone isn't quite the same, and the gain is different. For the majority of the studio albums though a '68 all the way.

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by Panamark
Isn't there also some conjecture on the variac (number 4)
in this diagram ?
If he was running a dummy load, why the need to lower
the AC input ? I notice they dont specify what load it is ??

THD, Mr Brownsound ??

Do they still sell those H & H poweramps driving the
Cabs/celestions ??

Well Mark, the Variac is not really going to change the volume per se. Most people agree that Ed ran his amp @ 90 volts, which will lower the plate voltage on the tubes. This causes the sound to be "browner" for lack of a better term, but it is still Marshall loud, if you know what I mean. Now I know EVH used to say he'd crank it up to 140 volts, but I'm throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

I've heard that the dummy load was actually higher than 16 ohms, which from what I understand from some old valve gurus isn't going to hurt anything. If it had been lower, well then you're frying the output tranny in a little while.

One thing on the speakers...the Celestions were Greenbacks and sometimes Blackbacks, but low powered just the same. You won't get that tone with freaking Celestion Vintage 30s or G12T75s. The JBL speakers mentioned are a possibility too and were supposedly mixed in the cabs along with the Greenbacks.

[Eddie's Booze]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
Well Mark, the Variac is not really going to change the volume per se. Most people agree that Ed ran his amp @ 90 volts, which will lower the plate voltage on the tubes. This causes the sound to be "browner" for lack of a better term, but it is still Marshall loud, if you know what I mean. Now I know EVH used to say he'd crank it up to 140 volts, but I'm throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

I've heard that the dummy load was actually higher than 16 ohms, which from what I understand from some old valve gurus isn't going to hurt anything. If it had been lower, well then you're frying the output tranny in a little while.

One thing on the speakers...the Celestions were Greenbacks and sometimes Blackbacks, but low powered just the same. You won't get that tone with freaking Celestion Vintage 30s or G12T75s. The JBL speakers mentioned are a possibility too and were supposedly mixed in the cabs along with the Greenbacks.

The transformers in the Vintage Plexi's are very prone to catching fire due to the way they were designed.

As much as I'd like to own a Plexi they just aren't reliable enough.....

They are ALOT of Amps out can get the Plexi sound for alot less money....just my 2 cents.

:)

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by Eddie's Booze
The transformers in the Vintage Plexi's are very prone to catching fire due to the way they were designed.

As much as I'd like to own a Plexi they just aren't reliable enough.....

They are ALOT of Amps out can get the Plexi sound for alot less money....just my 2 cents.

:)

I dunno, I've seen plenty of vintage Plexis that haven't had an OT replaced. However, I wouldn't GIG with one, just because of the cost of replacing the amp.

There are enough boutique manufacturers who build Plexi replicas that one can get that old tone without costing an arm and leg. These amps are also 100 times better than the shit Marshall has been putting out as a Plexi replica. It's a shame when the originators of that amp can't build it like the old days anymore.

[ELVIS]

I played through two Marshall Super Leads for years with zero major problems...

My biggest problems were dirty tube sockets, dirty switches dirty jacks and dirty pots which all contributed to noise, hum and occasionally one or the other may not have produced any output at all until I did some quick cleaning and troubleshooting, but I always successfully got them working pretty quickly...

These are the sole reasons I switched to my Fender Hot Rod Deluxes. They work great and basically sound exactly like my Marshalls the way I run them...

BTW BS, I always read and assumed that the variac was used in the studio to cut feed back by lowerving the voltage to 90 volts or so while keeping the amp's controls wide open...

And as far as the effects after the dummy load, I think Ed put his Echoplex at that point in the chain, but that's all...

Who really knows...:D


:elvis:

[DLRdelight!]

Originally posted by jhale667
You are correct! :D

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h217/jhale667/cluelessness.jpg

I keed! I make joke with you! :lol:

lol yeah i know

[ELVIS]

BS1 and I post all that good info and you reply to that crap ??

Don't take us for granted...

We don't go around just giving secrets to just anyone...

We try to help you because we respect you...

You should honor, respect and protect that...;)


:elvis:

[Eddie's Booze]

Originally posted by ELVIS
These are the sole reasons I switched to my Fender Hot Rod Deluxes. They work great and basically sound exactly like my Marshalls the way I run them...

I tried out a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe today. They are very nice sounding Amplifiers. You can get the Marshall type of sound from them pretty easily.

:)

[ELVIS]

And for a good price...

[Panamark]

I think I want one.. (re: fender hot rod)

Why dont marshall release a 15-20 watt
tube head for home/studio use ??

One that you could crank to 11 without
dummy loads and police smashing on
the doors !!

Ive got a 10 watt practice Marshall, but
its solid state (and is only there if we run out
of amps for small jams)

I hear you guys talking about low wattage
boutique tube amps a lot, but I haven't seen
much over this side of the globe..
Any recommendations ?

Elvis, whats your Fender ?? a 40 or 60 ??
I bet that sounds ace with the MP1..
Feeding 12AX7's into more 12AX7's !! :)

[Panamark]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
Well Mark, the Variac is not really going to change the volume per se. Most people agree that Ed ran his amp @ 90 volts, which will lower the plate voltage on the tubes. This causes the sound to be "browner" for lack of a better term, but it is still Marshall loud, if you know what I mean. Now I know EVH used to say he'd crank it up to 140 volts, but I'm throwing the bullshit flag on that one.

I've heard that the dummy load was actually higher than 16 ohms, which from what I understand from some old valve gurus isn't going to hurt anything. If it had been lower, well then you're frying the output tranny in a little while.

One thing on the speakers...the Celestions were Greenbacks and sometimes Blackbacks, but low powered just the same. You won't get that tone with freaking Celestion Vintage 30s or G12T75s. The JBL speakers mentioned are a possibility too and were supposedly mixed in the cabs along with the Greenbacks.

G'day Eric,

We run our heads at 240AC without a variac.. lol !
So maybe ed switched his head to 240, and ran
the variac at 140 ?? :D

I dont get the advantage or sense of running the
effects after the load ??? Wouldn't they be better
in the effects loop on the head itself, or in
line with the input ???

I wonder how accurate that block diagram is ??

[ELVIS]

A Hot Rod Deluxe is 40 watts...

They also make a Blues Deluxe that is basically the same amp without the extra distortion channel...

I like them because they are not too big, not too loud and they work when you plug 'em in...

They look good too, that's always a good thing...

I see they have a red one out now that looks cool...

I have a blonde one, a green one and a sunburst, and I have also seen purple, white, tan and even BLACK!

But, I love'em...

Good amps for a good price...


:elvis:

[Eddie's Booze]

Originally posted by Panamark
I think I want one.. (re: fender hot rod)

Why dont marshall release a 15-20 watt
tube head for home/studio use ??

One that you could crank to 11 without
dummy loads and police smashing on
the doors !!

Ive got a 10 watt practice Marshall, but
its solid state (and is only there if we run out
of amps for small jams)

I hear you guys talking about low wattage
boutique tube amps a lot, but I haven't seen
much over this side of the globe..
Any recommendations ?

Elvis, whats your Fender ?? a 40 or 60 ??
I bet that sounds ace with the MP1..
Feeding 12AX7's into more 12AX7's !! :)

The one I played thru was a 40 Watt and you know....it gets fucking loud very quick indeed. :D

They do sound great but they are not quite as warm as a Marshall.

This might be something to look into in:-(it comes in a Head as well)....

Soldano Astroverb 16

by Greg Grant [As reprinted from GUITAR May 1998]

A bout three years ago, Michael Soldano found himself at a crossroads. Known as a boutique maker of high-end/high-gain amps used by a number of professionals - including Eric Clapton and Lou Reed -- Soldano needed to expand his company's image in order to capture a market he had been missing. He wanted to build a handmade, all-tube 1x12 combo amp that would retail under $900, but also wanted to capture the sound his other, more expensive amps, were known for. Enter the Astroverb 16, an all-tube combo, which is just as comfortable practicing in the upstairs bedroom as it is rocking out on-stage.

The Astroverb 16 offers the same price and accessible features as the Atomic, while giving players the use of a tube-buffered Accutronics reverb. Housed in a seven-ply birch cabinet, the Astroverb 16 boasts 20 watts of all-tube power (shouldn't it be called the Astroverb 20 then?). Anyway, the amp's preamp section consists of five 12AX7A tubes with two EL84 power tubes. Soldano has chosen classic black stovetop-style knobs for its control panel and, yes, cats, like all Soldanos, the controls on this little guy go to 11. The amp incorporates simple to follow PC board technology for its circuitry, and the control panel consists of preamp, reverb, bass, middle, treble, and presence knobs with one 1/4" input. The rear of the amp has a three-prong AC power cord, a two-amp SIo-Blo fuse, two 16-ohm speaker outputs and a 12" Soldano speaker, custom made by Eminence to Soldano's specs.

Plugging into the Astroverb 16 with my vintage Les Paul, I soon found out that this amp was more rock-oriented than, say, country-oriented, since it starts to break up pretty quick and generate some cool overdrive sounds (hey, it's only 20 watts--if you want a "clean" amp with lots of headroom, go for something with a larger power section). That said, I was still able to push the clean sound a little bit further by plugging in a G&L ASAT and turning down the treble, so there are definitely a variety of usable clean textures with this amp. And although it's not going to generate as much stage volume as a 100-watt Marshall, you can still easily mic it up and use the Astroverb for gigging--plenty of players do it, believe me. Obviously, this pint-sized Soldano also lends itself brilliantly to studio work. But overall, it really shines in its ability to capture ballsy blues crunch and ripping metal overdrive--a longtime Soldano trademark.

Pushing the preamp a little past 3, moving the bass up to 7, while keeping the middle around 3 and the treble at 6, the Astroverb yielded a very "breathy" and "soulful" blues sound similar to a '60s 50-watt Marshall Plexi. I particularly liked the way the P-90 in my Junior sounded on this setting, but was equally impressed with the more nasal tone of the ASAT. Moving the preamp up to 8, while pushing the treble to 8 as well, yielded my favorite sound. Great for overdriven open chords and in tandem with a line boost or overdrive pedal for leads--a nice, heavy-duty rock sound.

Moving the preamp up to 11 and plugging a Marshall 1x12 extension cab into the external speaker output transported me to Meltdown City. The extra 12" speaker really opened up the Astroverb's sonic capabilities, making it sound much bigger and adding much more bass to the low end. This is especially nice for hardcore/metal applications using the easily movable drop-D chords. The amp's sustain was excellent, but the sound became a little thin sounding for my tastes anytime the bass had a setting lower than 7, especially at higher volumes. The presence control is also a nice feature. I preferred it at a lower setting, but pushing it past 6 gives an edgy, solid-state feel to the amp's distortion characteristics -- good for trying to achieve that Dimebag Darrell attack.

In closing, if you're looking for a very portable, all-American, all-tube, hand-built amplifier with reverb, but don't want to spend more than $900, the Astroverb 16 could be your dream machine.

(I got the review from Soldanos Website)

:)

[ELVIS]

You gonna post that a third time ??

[Eddie's Booze]

Originally posted by ELVIS
You gonna post that a third time ??

My connection messed up apologies for that.

:(

[GO-SPURS-GO]

Originally posted by ELVIS
You gonna post that a third time ??

:lol:

[Panamark]

Thanks Eddies Booze for the info ! Veddy interesting,
I will try one out at a store.. Have you
tried one Elvis ? (I deleted your dupe post for ya EB)

[BrownSound1]

Originally posted by Panamark
G'day Eric,

We run our heads at 240AC without a variac.. lol !
So maybe ed switched his head to 240, and ran
the variac at 140 ?? :D

I dont get the advantage or sense of running the
effects after the load ??? Wouldn't they be better
in the effects loop on the head itself, or in
line with the input ???

I wonder how accurate that block diagram is ??

There's no effects loop on old Plexi heads. :D

[Panamark]

Originally posted by BrownSound1
There's no effects loop on old Plexi heads. :D

I should have known that !!

DOH !