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FORD
11-06-2007, 02:47 AM
Olbermann: On waterboarding and torture
Olbermann: Bush may not observe the rules, but the country abides by them
SPECIAL COMMENT
By Keith Olbermann
Anchor, 'Countdown'
updated 6:42 p.m. PT, Mon., Nov. 5, 2007

It is a fact startling in its cynical simplicity and it requires cynical and simple words to be properly expressed: The presidency of George W. Bush has now devolved into a criminal conspiracy to cover the ass of George W. Bush.

All the petulancy, all the childish threats, all the blank-stare stupidity; all the invocations of World War III, all the sophistic questions about which terrorist attacks we wanted him not to stop, all the phony secrets; all the claims of executive privilege, all the stumbling tap-dancing of his nominees, all the verbal flatulence of his apologists...

All of it is now, after one revelation last week, transparently clear for what it is: the pathetic and desperate manipulation of the government, the refocusing of our entire nation, toward keeping this mock president and this unstable vice president and this departed wildly self-overrating attorney general, and the others, from potential prosecution for having approved or ordered the illegal torture of prisoners being held in the name of this country.

"Waterboarding is torture," Daniel Levin was to write. Daniel Levin was no theorist and no protester. He was no troublemaking politician. He was no table-pounding commentator. Daniel Levin was an astonishingly patriotic American and a brave man.

Brave not just with words or with stances, even in a dark time when that kind of bravery can usually be scared or bought off.

Charged, as you heard in the story from ABC News last Friday, with assessing the relative legality of the various nightmares in the Pandora's box that is the Orwell-worthy euphemism "Enhanced Interrogation," Mr. Levin decided that the simplest, and the most honest, way to evaluate them ... was to have them enacted upon himself.

Daniel Levin took himself to a military base and let himself be waterboarded.

Mr. Bush, ever done anything that personally courageous?

Perhaps when you've gone to Walter Reed and teared up over the maimed servicemen? And then gone back to the White House and determined that there would be more maimed servicemen?

Has it been that kind of personal courage, Mr. Bush, when you've spoken of American victims and the triumph of freedom and the sacrifice of your own popularity for the sake of our safety? And then permitted others to fire or discredit or destroy anybody who disagreed with you, whether they were your own generals, or Max Cleland, or Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, or Daniel Levin?

Daniel Levin should have a statue in his honor in Washington right now.

Instead, he was forced out as acting assistant attorney general nearly three years ago because he had the guts to do what George Bush couldn't do in a million years: actually put himself at risk for the sake of his country, for the sake of what is right.

And they waterboarded him. And he wrote that even though he knew those doing it meant him no harm, and he knew they would rescue him at the instant of the slightest distress, and he knew he would not die — still, with all that reassurance, he could not stop the terror screaming from inside of him, could not quell the horror, could not convince that which is at the core of each of us, the entity who exists behind all the embellishments we strap to ourselves, like purpose and name and family and love, he could not convince his being that he wasn't drowning.

Waterboarding, he said, is torture. Legally, it is torture! Practically, it is torture! Ethically, it is torture! And he wrote it down.

Wrote it down somewhere, where it could be contrasted with the words of this country's 43rd president: "The United States of America ... does not torture."

Made you into a liar, Mr. Bush.

Made you into, if anybody had the guts to pursue it, a criminal, Mr. Bush.

Waterboarding had already been used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed and a couple of other men none of us really care about except for the one detail you'd forgotten — that there are rules. And even if we just make up these rules, this country observes them anyway, because we're Americans and we're better than that.

We're better than you.

And the man your Justice Department selected to decide whether or not waterboarding was torture had decided, and not in some phony academic fashion, nor while wearing the Walter Mitty poseur attire of flight suit and helmet.

He had put his money, Mr. Bush, where your mouth was.

So, your sleazy sycophantic henchman Mr. Gonzales had him append an asterisk suggesting his black-and-white answer wasn't black-and-white, that there might have been a quasi-legal way of torturing people, maybe with an absolute time limit and a physician entitled to stop it, maybe, if your administration had ever bothered to set any rules or any guidelines.

And then when your people realized that even that was too dangerous, Daniel Levin was branded "too independent" and "someone who could (not) be counted on."

In other words, Mr. Bush, somebody you couldn't count on to lie for you.

So, Levin was fired.

Because if it ever got out what he'd concluded, and the lengths to which he went to validate that conclusion, anybody who had sanctioned waterboarding and who-knows-what-else on anybody, you yourself, you would have been screwed.

And screwed you are.

It can't be coincidence that the story of Daniel Levin should emerge from the black hole of this secret society of a presidency just at the conclusion of the unhappy saga of the newest attorney general nominee.

Another patriot somewhere listened as Judge Mukasey mumbled like he'd never heard of waterboarding and refused to answer in words … that which Daniel Levin answered on a waterboard somewhere in Maryland or Virginia three years ago.

And this someone also heard George Bush say, "The United States of America does not torture," and realized either he was lying or this wasn't the United States of America anymore, and either way, he needed to do something about it.

Not in the way Levin needed to do something about it, but in a brave way nonetheless.

We have U.S. senators who need to do something about it, too.

Chairman Leahy of the Judiciary Committee has seen this for what it is and said "enough."

Sen. Schumer has seen it, reportedly, as some kind of puzzle piece in the New York political patronage system, and he has failed.

What Sen. Feinstein has seen, to justify joining Schumer in rubber-stamping Mukasey, I cannot guess.

It is obvious that both those senators should look to the meaning of the story of Daniel Levin and recant their support for Mukasey's confirmation.

And they should look into their own committee's history and recall that in 1973, their predecessors were able to wring even from Richard Nixon a guarantee of a special prosecutor (ultimately a special prosecutor of Richard Nixon!), in exchange for their approval of his new attorney general, Elliott Richardson.

If they could get that out of Nixon, before you confirm the president's latest human echo on Tuesday, you had better be able to get a "yes" or a "no" out of Michael Mukasey.

Ideally you should lock this government down financially until a special prosecutor is appointed, or 50 of them, but I'm not holding my breath. The "yes" or the "no" on waterboarding will have to suffice.

Because, remember, if you can't get it, or you won't with the time between tonight and the next presidential election likely to be the longest year of our lives, you are leaving this country, and all of us, to the waterboards, symbolic and otherwise, of George W. Bush.

Ultimately, Mr. Bush, the real question isn't who approved the waterboarding of this fiend Khalid Sheik Mohammed and two others.

It is: Why were they waterboarded?

Study after study for generation after generation has confirmed that torture gets people to talk, torture gets people to plead, torture gets people to break, but torture does not get them to tell the truth.

Of course, Mr. Bush, this isn't a problem if you don't care if the terrorist plots they tell you about are the truth or just something to stop the tormentors from drowning them.

If, say, a president simply needed a constant supply of terrorist threats to keep a country scared.

If, say, he needed phony plots to play hero during, and to boast about interrupting, and to use to distract people from the threat he didn't interrupt.

If, say, he realized that even terrorized people still need good ghost stories before they will let a president pillage the Constitution,

Well, Mr. Bush, who better to dream them up for you than an actual terrorist?

He'll tell you everything he ever fantasized doing in his most horrific of daydreams, his equivalent of the day you "flew" onto the deck of the Lincoln to explain you'd won in Iraq.

Now if that's what this is all about, you tortured not because you're so stupid you think torture produces confession but you tortured because you're smart enough to know it produces really authentic-sounding fiction — well, then, you're going to need all the lawyers you can find … because that crime wouldn't just mean impeachment, would it?

That crime would mean George W. Bush is going to prison.

Thus the master tumblers turn, and the lock yields, and the hidden explanations can all be perceived, in their exact proportions, in their exact progressions.

Daniel Levin's eminently practical, eminently logical, eminently patriotic way of testing the legality of waterboarding has to vanish, and him with it.

Thus Alberto Gonzales has to use that brain that sounds like an old car trying to start on a freezing morning to undo eight centuries of the forward march of law and government.

Thus Dick Cheney has to ridiculously assert that confirming we do or do not use any particular interrogation technique would somehow help the terrorists.

Thus Michael Mukasey, on the eve of the vote that will make him the high priest of the law of this land, cannot and must not answer a question, nor even hint that he has thought about a question, which merely concerns the theoretical definition of waterboarding as torture.

Because, Mr. Bush, in the seven years of your nightmare presidency, this whole string of events has been transformed.

From its beginning as the most neglectful protection ever of the lives and safety of the American people ... into the most efficient and cynical exploitation of tragedy for political gain in this country's history ... and, then, to the giddying prospect that you could do what the military fanatics did in Japan in the 1930s and remake a nation into a fascist state so efficient and so self-sustaining that the fascism would be nearly invisible.

But at last this frightful plan is ending with an unexpected crash, the shocking reality that no matter how thoroughly you might try to extinguish them, Mr. Bush, how thoroughly you tried to brand disagreement as disloyalty, Mr. Bush, there are still people like Daniel Levin who believe in the United States of America as true freedom, where we are better, not because of schemes and wars, but because of dreams and morals.

And ultimately these men, these patriots, will defeat you and they will return this country to its righteous standards, and to its rightful owners, the people.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21644133/


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jharp84
11-06-2007, 02:52 AM
UNREAL! HE HAS NOT BEEN ASSINATED! SPELL CHECK!

Nitro Express
11-06-2007, 03:46 AM
Bullets only kill the mortal and not the chosen ones of Satan.

<a href="http://www.satanspace.com"><img src="http://www.satanspace.com/m_pictures/AntiChrist-Bush.gif" border="0" /></a><br/><a href="http://www.satanspace.com" style="font-size:10px;"><b>Horror Pictures at satanspace.com</b></a>

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 12:06 PM
This was one of Keith greatest special comments.

And I think he really nailed it with Mukasey.

They were using Fredo Gonzalez as their shield, just as they did in Texas, and if the new AG was to call WB torture, Bush could literally be tried and jailed.

Schumer and Feinestein did this country a huge diservice by voting to confirm this rat.

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 12:28 PM
The best thing about NBC's broadcast of Sunday Night Football was when thbey went dark and shut the fuckin lights out on Keith Overdone. WTF is he ruining football for now. I would have no problem doing a little boardin on that douchebag myself. What a mind full of mush that is. I hope Keith is ASSinated...Fuckin Loser!

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
The best thing about NBC's broadcast of Sunday Night Football was when thbey went dark and shut the fuckin lights out on Keith Overdone. WTF is he ruining football for now. I would have no problem doing a little boardin on that douchebag myself. What a mind full of mush that is. I hope Keith is ASSinated...Fuckin Loser!


LMMFAO

Jim, jim , jim....

In the world in which you reside, where the "experts" are named Brit Hume, Sean Hanity, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Bill O'Reilly, et al.....

Keith Olbermann is a brilliant journalist.

Tune in and learn something.

And while you're waiting for the next bit of wisdom from Keith, tune in to Thom Hartmann.

There's still hope for you, my brother.

We can get you back from the Dark Side. I have Hope and Faith [no, not the strippers]

Just Say No to deficits, torture, Pax Americana, and the destruction of the Constitution.

Love,

The Bright Ones.

:gulp:

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 12:40 PM
Just out of curiosity Jimbo...

Can you quote a paragraph or so that you so disagree with in Keith's comments?

Where exactly is he off-base?

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Olbermann: On waterboarding and torture
Olbermann: Bush may not observe the rules, but the country abides by them
SPECIAL COMMENT
By Keith Olbermann
Anchor, 'Countdown'
updated 6:42 p.m. PT, Mon., Nov. 5, 2007

It is a fact startling in its cynical simplicity and it requires cynical and simple words to be properly expressed: The presidency of George W. Bush has now devolved into a criminal conspiracy to cover the ass of George W. Bush.

All the petulancy, all the childish threats, all the blank-stare stupidity; all the invocations of World War III, all the sophistic questions about which terrorist attacks we wanted him not to stop, all the phony secrets; all the claims of executive privilege, all the stumbling tap-dancing of his nominees, all the verbal flatulence of his apologists...

All of it is now, after one revelation last week, transparently clear for what it is: the pathetic and desperate manipulation of the government, the refocusing of our entire nation, toward keeping this mock president and this unstable vice president and this departed wildly self-overrating attorney general, and the others, from potential prosecution for having approved or ordered the illegal torture of prisoners being held in the name of this country.

"Waterboarding is torture," Daniel Levin was to write. Daniel Levin was no theorist and no protester. He was no troublemaking politician. He was no table-pounding commentator. Daniel Levin was an astonishingly patriotic American and a brave man.

Brave not just with words or with stances, even in a dark time when that kind of bravery can usually be scared or bought off.

Charged, as you heard in the story from ABC News last Friday, with assessing the relative legality of the various nightmares in the Pandora's box that is the Orwell-worthy euphemism "Enhanced Interrogation," Mr. Levin decided that the simplest, and the most honest, way to evaluate them ... was to have them enacted upon himself.

Daniel Levin took himself to a military base and let himself be waterboarded.

Mr. Bush, ever done anything that personally courageous?

Perhaps when you've gone to Walter Reed and teared up over the maimed servicemen? And then gone back to the White House and determined that there would be more maimed servicemen?

Has it been that kind of personal courage, Mr. Bush, when you've spoken of American victims and the triumph of freedom and the sacrifice of your own popularity for the sake of our safety? And then permitted others to fire or discredit or destroy anybody who disagreed with you, whether they were your own generals, or Max Cleland, or Joe Wilson and Valerie Plame, or Daniel Levin?

Daniel Levin should have a statue in his honor in Washington right now.

Instead, he was forced out as acting assistant attorney general nearly three years ago because he had the guts to do what George Bush couldn't do in a million years: actually put himself at risk for the sake of his country, for the sake of what is right.

And they waterboarded him. And he wrote that even though he knew those doing it meant him no harm, and he knew they would rescue him at the instant of the slightest distress, and he knew he would not die — still, with all that reassurance, he could not stop the terror screaming from inside of him, could not quell the horror, could not convince that which is at the core of each of us, the entity who exists behind all the embellishments we strap to ourselves, like purpose and name and family and love, he could not convince his being that he wasn't drowning.

Waterboarding, he said, is torture. Legally, it is torture! Practically, it is torture! Ethically, it is torture! And he wrote it down.

Wrote it down somewhere, where it could be contrasted with the words of this country's 43rd president: "The United States of America ... does not torture."

Made you into a liar, Mr. Bush.

Made you into, if anybody had the guts to pursue it, a criminal, Mr. Bush.

Waterboarding had already been used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed and a couple of other men none of us really care about except for the one detail you'd forgotten — that there are rules. And even if we just make up these rules, this country observes them anyway, because we're Americans and we're better than that.

We're better than you.

And the man your Justice Department selected to decide whether or not waterboarding was torture had decided, and not in some phony academic fashion, nor while wearing the Walter Mitty poseur attire of flight suit and helmet.

He had put his money, Mr. Bush, where your mouth was.

So, your sleazy sycophantic henchman Mr. Gonzales had him append an asterisk suggesting his black-and-white answer wasn't black-and-white, that there might have been a quasi-legal way of torturing people, maybe with an absolute time limit and a physician entitled to stop it, maybe, if your administration had ever bothered to set any rules or any guidelines.

And then when your people realized that even that was too dangerous, Daniel Levin was branded "too independent" and "someone who could (not) be counted on."

In other words, Mr. Bush, somebody you couldn't count on to lie for you.

So, Levin was fired.

Because if it ever got out what he'd concluded, and the lengths to which he went to validate that conclusion, anybody who had sanctioned waterboarding and who-knows-what-else on anybody, you yourself, you would have been screwed.

And screwed you are.

It can't be coincidence that the story of Daniel Levin should emerge from the black hole of this secret society of a presidency just at the conclusion of the unhappy saga of the newest attorney general nominee.

Another patriot somewhere listened as Judge Mukasey mumbled like he'd never heard of waterboarding and refused to answer in words … that which Daniel Levin answered on a waterboard somewhere in Maryland or Virginia three years ago.

And this someone also heard George Bush say, "The United States of America does not torture," and realized either he was lying or this wasn't the United States of America anymore, and either way, he needed to do something about it.

Not in the way Levin needed to do something about it, but in a brave way nonetheless.

We have U.S. senators who need to do something about it, too.

Chairman Leahy of the Judiciary Committee has seen this for what it is and said "enough."

Sen. Schumer has seen it, reportedly, as some kind of puzzle piece in the New York political patronage system, and he has failed.

What Sen. Feinstein has seen, to justify joining Schumer in rubber-stamping Mukasey, I cannot guess.

It is obvious that both those senators should look to the meaning of the story of Daniel Levin and recant their support for Mukasey's confirmation.

And they should look into their own committee's history and recall that in 1973, their predecessors were able to wring even from Richard Nixon a guarantee of a special prosecutor (ultimately a special prosecutor of Richard Nixon!), in exchange for their approval of his new attorney general, Elliott Richardson.

If they could get that out of Nixon, before you confirm the president's latest human echo on Tuesday, you had better be able to get a "yes" or a "no" out of Michael Mukasey.

Ideally you should lock this government down financially until a special prosecutor is appointed, or 50 of them, but I'm not holding my breath. The "yes" or the "no" on waterboarding will have to suffice.

Because, remember, if you can't get it, or you won't with the time between tonight and the next presidential election likely to be the longest year of our lives, you are leaving this country, and all of us, to the waterboards, symbolic and otherwise, of George W. Bush.

Ultimately, Mr. Bush, the real question isn't who approved the waterboarding of this fiend Khalid Sheik Mohammed and two others.

It is: Why were they waterboarded?

Study after study for generation after generation has confirmed that torture gets people to talk, torture gets people to plead, torture gets people to break, but torture does not get them to tell the truth.

Of course, Mr. Bush, this isn't a problem if you don't care if the terrorist plots they tell you about are the truth or just something to stop the tormentors from drowning them.

If, say, a president simply needed a constant supply of terrorist threats to keep a country scared.

If, say, he needed phony plots to play hero during, and to boast about interrupting, and to use to distract people from the threat he didn't interrupt.

If, say, he realized that even terrorized people still need good ghost stories before they will let a president pillage the Constitution,

Well, Mr. Bush, who better to dream them up for you than an actual terrorist?

He'll tell you everything he ever fantasized doing in his most horrific of daydreams, his equivalent of the day you "flew" onto the deck of the Lincoln to explain you'd won in Iraq.

Now if that's what this is all about, you tortured not because you're so stupid you think torture produces confession but you tortured because you're smart enough to know it produces really authentic-sounding fiction — well, then, you're going to need all the lawyers you can find … because that crime wouldn't just mean impeachment, would it?

That crime would mean George W. Bush is going to prison.

Thus the master tumblers turn, and the lock yields, and the hidden explanations can all be perceived, in their exact proportions, in their exact progressions.

Daniel Levin's eminently practical, eminently logical, eminently patriotic way of testing the legality of waterboarding has to vanish, and him with it.

Thus Alberto Gonzales has to use that brain that sounds like an old car trying to start on a freezing morning to undo eight centuries of the forward march of law and government.

Thus Dick Cheney has to ridiculously assert that confirming we do or do not use any particular interrogation technique would somehow help the terrorists.

Thus Michael Mukasey, on the eve of the vote that will make him the high priest of the law of this land, cannot and must not answer a question, nor even hint that he has thought about a question, which merely concerns the theoretical definition of waterboarding as torture.

Because, Mr. Bush, in the seven years of your nightmare presidency, this whole string of events has been transformed.

From its beginning as the most neglectful protection ever of the lives and safety of the American people ... into the most efficient and cynical exploitation of tragedy for political gain in this country's history ... and, then, to the giddying prospect that you could do what the military fanatics did in Japan in the 1930s and remake a nation into a fascist state so efficient and so self-sustaining that the fascism would be nearly invisible.

But at last this frightful plan is ending with an unexpected crash, the shocking reality that no matter how thoroughly you might try to extinguish them, Mr. Bush, how thoroughly you tried to brand disagreement as disloyalty, Mr. Bush, there are still people like Daniel Levin who believe in the United States of America as true freedom, where we are better, not because of schemes and wars, but because of dreams and morals.

And ultimately these men, these patriots, will defeat you and they will return this country to its righteous standards, and to its rightful owners, the people.
© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21644133/


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This should just about do it! BTW Keith has a show now? When did this happen, I though he just hung out in the NBC studios waiting for Bob Costas to go by and do the Sunday night show. Actually, I listened to Thom Hartmann some on Friday to the suggestion by our good friend Ford and I have a firm grasp on the core issues the far left are deeply concerned about. But Lounge with all due respect to you and the other "Bright Ones", I am very confident and grounded in my beliefs the main principals of conservatism are the proper course for the future of this country just as you are about yours.

Best Regards,

The Dark ONE

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 01:05 PM
UPDATE!!!! Mukasey just approved 11-8. HE better call Obermann to find out how to properly fulfill the obligations as the Attorney General of the United States of America. Any sane minded individual would. Maybe Keith could do a liitle boarding demo for the AG, being the TV commentator Patriot that he is.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini


I am very confident and grounded in my beliefs the main principals of conservatism are the proper course for the future of this country just as you are about yours.

Best Regards,

The Dark ONE

And how do you feel about the Republican Party, and this administration's handling of your "main principles" [ I'm assuming you didnt mean the leaders of local High Schools ;) ]

Even the staunchest of right-wing wackjobs must be sick to their stomachs with regards to the last 7 years, not to mention the path it's on.

This aint your father's Republican Party.

:gulp:

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
UPDATE!!!! Mukasey just approved 11-8. HE better call Obermann to find out how to properly fulfill the obligations as the Attorney General of the United States of America. Any sane minded individual would. Maybe Keith could do a liitle boarding demo for the AG, being the TV commentator Patriot that he is.

Actually the former Assistant AG for BushCO, Daniel Levine actually WAS waster-boarded as a test.

He determined that it was IN FACT torture......



He, of course, was fired by BushCO for being "too independent"

:rolleyes:

Nitro Express
11-06-2007, 01:32 PM
Kieth is one of the few unbiased TV journalists. I think he gives everyone a fair shot Republican or Democrat. Plus, he looks better on TV than the rest of them. He's the only one I watch for real news.

Most of my news watching is spent lusting after Republican biased news babes on FOX or CNBC. Not that I like what they are saying. I just want to fuck em and fuck em hard! :D

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
And how do you feel about the Republican Party, and this administration's handling of your "main principles" [ I'm assuming you didnt mean the leaders of local High Schools ;) ]

Even the staunchest of right-wing wackjobs must be sick to their stomachs with regards to the last 7 years, not to mention the path it's on.

This aint your father's Republican Party.

:gulp:

Right- wing wackjobs- I resemble that comment

Principles- shit you got me! This is correct thank you!

Taxation- B+/ should have made tax cuts permanent

Domestic Spending- D/ Expansion of the Federal Gov rediculous

Soc Security- C/ Never pushed privitazation as promised

Iraqi front in the War against Radical Islam- B-/ Should have been way more agressive in the beginning as opposed to "mission accomplished" attitude

Overall handling of War- B+/ 7 years running no terrorist attack on american soil.

Wiretapping- You nor I or your mom nor my mom have been eavesdropped on unless we all have been receiving phone calls from terrorist hot beds across the globe.

Torture- No terrorist attacks on American Soil since 2001. Anyway to get information to protect You, Ford, Thome or anbody else is the most important thing to me. American first, war criminal sympathizer way down the list. At least they get to keep their heads after all the waterboarding. If the roles were reversed, we would not have that luxury.

So overall, you are right I have not been completely satisfied with the "current principals" of the conservative principles.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 01:41 PM
Torture doesnt NOT get the truth, all studies have shown that...

Torture gets you false info.

Ask McCain.

Why are we allowed to flip the bird to The Geneva Convention?

And you're a bright guy, IRAQ had/has NOTHING to do with any "war on terror"


:rolleyes:

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Actually the former Assistant AG for BushCO, Daniel Levine actually WAS waster-boarded as a test.

He determined that it was IN FACT torture......



He, of course, was fired by BushCO for being "too independent"

:rolleyes:


I know, Keep Overstatin said that in his rant last night.

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Torture doesnt NOT get the truth, all studies have shown that...

Torture gets you false info.

Ask McCain.

Why are we allowed to flip the bird to The Geneva Convention?

And you're a bright guy, IRAQ had/has NOTHING to do with any "war on terror"


:rolleyes:

I do not like the term war on terror. Does not make any sense. You have to define your enemy. Iraq-I beleive it has had everything to with the war against redical islam especially when last week alone the main the Supreme "Radical" Commander BinLaden was trying to rally the followers in IRAQ. Torture- IDK how did we get all the info out of sheik mohammed, offer him ethnic food and more virgins? Thank you for the bright compliment BTW, means alot coming from "THE BrightSide"

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 01:56 PM
Saddam Was one of our greates ALLIES against radical islamic terorists.

We played right into OBL's hands, gave him a wet dream for Christmas, by invading Iraq.

Had this admin been serious, we would have taken OBL from the Taliban when he was offered in 2001 [he had to be turned over to a third party country for trial]

Had this admin been serious about "terror" we would have clamped down in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

This admin didnt want OBL, they wanted the issue. They wanted the fear. They wanted the terror.

In the last 7 years profits have soared for Halliburton, Black Water, and for Big Oil.

Gas is 3X what it was when Bush took office.

And the REPUBLICAN congress spent/stole like drunken sailors...

You're doing a heckuva Job, Jimmie. ;)

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Saddam Was one of our greates ALLIES against radical islamic terorists.

We played right into OBL's hands, gave him a wet dream for Christmas, by invading Iraq.

Had this admin been serious, we would have taken OBL from the Taliban when he was offered in 2001 [he had to be turned over to a third party country for trial]

Had this admin been serious about "terror" we would have clamped down in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

This admin didnt want OBL, they wanted the issue. They wanted the fear. They wanted the terror.

In the last 7 years profits have soared for Halliburton, Black Water, and for Big Oil.

Gas is 3X what it was when Bush took office.

And the REPUBLICAN congress spent/stole like drunken sailors...

You're doing a heckuva Job, Jimmie. ;)

Now its me personally that is doing all of this....My last name is not Carter. But seriously we would not be even talking about this if Mr. Clinton would have taken advantage of all the golden opportunities he had back in the 90's: His words "to much of a hot potato" and my fav. "had no legal authority at the time". WTF Lounge great job!


BTW Rush just played "Panama" as bumper music...Fuckin Limbaugh tryin to associate himself with VH.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 02:06 PM
9/11 happened on who's watch again?

Hmmm....

Biggest breach of our security happened under which administration?

Why hasn't Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the supposed "mastermind" of 9/11 ever been tried ?

Bubba caught, tried, convicted, and imprisoned those thaty hit the WTC on his watch [3 months into his admin]


C'mon Jim....

FORD
11-06-2007, 02:21 PM
**hiccup**

FORD
11-06-2007, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
I do not like the term war on terror. Does not make any sense. You have to define your enemy.

Now, that has to be the first time I have ever seen a Republican admit that.

But how do you define an abstract? Terrorism is not a noun, it's an idea.

More specifically......

Terrorism is best defined as the use of violence, or threat of violence, as a means of creating fear, in order to achieve a political goal.

Certainly that was the purpose of the IRA, who wanted to end British occupation of Northern Ireland.

It could be used to describe BOTH sides of the Israeli-Palestinian clusterfuck.

But doesn't also describe what the BCE has done to THIS country? Even if you don't believe they had any active or passive involvement in the events of 9-11-01, they have certainly USED those events to create a state of constant fear in this country, in order to shred the Constitution.

All in the name of a fictional "world wide terraist threat" which doesn't even exist.

Terrorism is local. The above examples of the IRA and the middle eastern mess testify to that fact. They are concerned about their own issues, and bringing about the desired political outcome in their own country.

The insurgents in Iraq have nothing to do with Al Qaeda, and they are "terrorists" in the same sense that the British called our so-called "founding fathers" terrorists.

Both wanted an occupying power to get the fuck out of their country.

We haven't had a "terraist" attack on this country since 9-11-01 because this fictional boogieman is no more real than the Tooth Fairy, not because of anything the Chimpministration has done.

Jim Shetterlini
11-06-2007, 02:27 PM
Come on Lounge, now I am serious when I say that you seem to me a very intelligent guy, so I am sick and of hearing about 9/11 happened under the Bush Adm, like it wa planned the day before. This was being planned 3 years prior and all the parties were in the counrty long before he took office. BinLaden started planning this when Clinton hauled ass out of Somalia. Then he got emboldend when he did nothing about all the bombings and acts done from 95 until 2000 with the last attack on the USS Cole. Hell Bush's cabinet still was not in place when the attacks thanks to the dems and their incapabilty of handling an election loss. Mohammed tried: like this is a legal matter. Fuck that, get every single ounce of info you can from him then since he happily admitted it already, the Military has responsibility for his future as this is war crimes to the highest degree.

Go to go!

Work is calling my name, my laptop, my livlihood.....

Nickdfresh
11-06-2007, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Come on Lounge, now I am serious when I say that you seem to me a very intelligent guy, so I am sick and of hearing about 9/11 happened under the Bush Adm, like it wa planned the day before. This was being planned 3 years prior and all the parties were in the counrty long before he took office. BinLaden started planning this when Clinton hauled ass out of Somalia.

Uh, no dude. Stop with the retarded propeganda...

What has been said is that Bin Laden started planning after he saw the training camp that Clinton ordered cruise missiles fired on, and several dozen al Qaeda operatives had been killed. Some of the dead were thought to be civilian family members...


Then he got emboldend when he did nothing about all the bombings and acts done from 95 until 2000 with the last attack on the USS Cole.

He tried to kill or capture Bin Laden at least twice.

A nuclear attack sub was stationed near Afghanistan that cruise missiles could be fired with a few hours notice to take out Bin Laden should the opportunity arise...

And the plan to support Bin Laden's enemies in Afghanistan was largely fermented during the Clinton administration.
It was essentially the plan used to overthrow the Taliban after 9/11...


Hell Bush's cabinet still was not in place when the attacks thanks to the dems and their incapabilty of handling an election loss.

Orelly?

You mean Al Gore fought the results? I was under impression that there were a lot of Democrats that were pissed that he didn't...

In any case, what does that have to do with Bush doing a fuck lot of nothing about Bin Laden for nine months?

Is that Clinton's fault?

And when the Republican Congress scoffed at Clinton for "wagging the dog" when he tried to kill Bin Laden, in retaliation for the African Embassy Bombings, was that Clinton's faulty too? After all, Congress thought his dick more important than say - terrorism!



Mohammed tried: like this is a legal matter. Fuck that, get every single ounce of info you can from him then since he happily admitted it already, the Military has responsibility for his future as this is war crimes to the highest degree.

Go to go!

Work is calling my name, my laptop, my livlihood.....

What if the info is only bullshit he's making up to be not tortured anymore? That happens then?

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by Jim Shetterlini
Come on Lounge, now I am serious when I say that you seem to me a very intelligent guy, so I am sick and of hearing about 9/11 happened under the Bush Adm,

Are you dismissing the PDB's?????

How about the FBI warnings????

Did your VEEP who was placed in charge of the terrorism commiittee hold one single meeting??????

C'mon, Jimbo.

How can you NOT take the rap for 9/11, but in the same thread TAKE THE CREDIT for no new attacks????

Jesus :rolleyes:

FORD
11-06-2007, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine


How can you NOT take the rap for 9/11, but in the same thread TAKE THE CREDIT for no new attacks????

Jesus :rolleyes:

This is the same mentality which credits REAGAN for the economy of the 1990's and blames Bill Clinton for the recession caused by Chimpy's tax "cuts" for the rich who don't pay taxes.

Unchainme
11-06-2007, 04:48 PM
A.)Keith shouldn't be doing SNF in the first place, Neither should Limbaugh. Football is a place a lot of Americans use to STAY AWAY From Politics. Period. End of Story.

B.) Keith isn't a Journalist. Sorry to burst your guy's bubble. He's MSNBC's left wing version of O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Hannity, etc.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Unchainme
A.)Keith shouldn't be doing SNF in the first place, Neither should Limbaugh. Football is a place a lot of Americans use to STAY AWAY From Politics. Period. End of Story.

B.) Keith isn't a Journalist. Sorry to burst your guy's bubble. He's MSNBC's left wing version of O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, Hannity, etc.

Hate to burst YOUR bubble little buddy, but KO was on ESPN before you were born.

And he IS a Journalist in the PUREST sense of the word.

Now, go back to mocking my Seahags like a good boy.

:gulp:

Unchainme
11-06-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Hate to burst YOUR bubble little buddy, but KO was on ESPN before you were born.

And he IS a Journalist in the PUREST sense of the word.

Now, go back to mocking my Seahags like a good boy.

:gulp:

Yeah..I knew that. ;)..I used to watch Sportscenter back in the 90's as a youngun when the Tribe were kicking ass.

But..I'm just saying

Politics and Football Don't Mix Period.

It's just stupid in that aspect. I respect him as an anchor for Sportscente,. As long as he's not saying his opinion on politics during the game or pregame. I'm sure you would agree on that with me?

Losing to The Browns..LMMFAO!..Thats lower than low dude.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Unchainme

Losing to The Browns..LMMFAO!..Thats lower than low dude.

:mad:

Yeah, but you still live in Cleveland.

:D

Unchainme
11-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
:mad:

Yeah, but you still live in Cleveland.

:D

Yeah but you guys are touching canada Closer!

Yuck. :D

FORD
11-06-2007, 05:30 PM
BC Bud. Easier to flee the country when Chimpy attacks Iran.

Being 18, you should be especially concerned about that one.

Unchainme
11-06-2007, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by FORD
BC Bud. Easier to flee the country when Chimpy attacks Iran.

Being 18, you should be especially concerned about that one.

Yeah..Sadly :(

I'm pretty much fucked..

I don't think I'll dodge it though. I would be a hypocrite if I did.

LoungeMachine
11-06-2007, 05:37 PM
Yep :cool:

FORD
11-06-2007, 10:47 PM
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