Piping vocals in - how does it work

[dave_is_vh]

Can someone explain how the piping in of vocals works technically? Does Al listen to a prerecorded track with the background vocals on them to make sure the timing synchs up? Or does someone push a button?

[brianjayy]

Actually, I picture a dude sittin' backstage, drinkin' Heineken and holding a microphone, got a monitor, maybe, waiting for his "parts" to come up...sing some back-up, swig the brewski...nice job if you can get it...I'm not convinced it's not Wolf...but if it ain't Wolf, then a pro singer backstage would be an easy, uncomplicated solution...

[dave_is_vh]

It is prerecorded. It is not some dude backstage. And I think the vocals are actually Ed and Wolf. They just aren't doing it live for some reason.

I am just curious how it works from a timing standpoint because the timing has to be perfect. I am pretty convinced that Al is listening to and playing off of prerecorded tracks that have the vocals on them. That is the only way I can think of that they can time it perfectly.

But I am not a musician or in the music biz, so perhaps someone more knowledgeable can comment on this.

[WelshJon]

Bon Jovi do it this way, and yes, I got this from one of the band:

The vocal is pre-recorded. Separate phrases are assigned to keys on the keyboard for the keys player to trigger at the appropriate time so the track doesn't have to be played to a click.

[katie]

Pro-tools, double tracks and REVERB Baby!

[WelshJon]

Originally posted by katie
Pro-tools, double tracks and REVERB Baby!

Yup. More bands than would care to admit it use them.

[dave_is_vh]

Originally posted by katie
Pro-tools, double tracks and REVERB Baby!

What are these things and how do they work?

[katie]

........google is your friend

[Casemeister]

Originally posted by WelshJon
Bon Jovi do it this way, and yes, I got this from one of the band:

The vocal is pre-recorded. Separate phrases are assigned to keys on the keyboard for the keys player to trigger at the appropriate time so the track doesn't have to be played to a click.

That's how it's done.

I used to post at another forum and there was a dude there who was with VH on the F.U.C.K. tour. IIRC, he was a roadie. He said each key on the keyboard had a word or phrase assigned to it. He was a very reliable poster, and he had no reason to lie about it. They would be doing the same thing on this tour. In 2004 they didn't seem to have any "help," and it was easy to hear that it was just Ed and Mike. The backing vocals just didn't sound as full. (Although I haven't listened to any of the boots from that tour for a while, so maybe my memory is distorting things.)

Is it cheating? To a degree, perhaps, but Wolf and Ed are still singing. The backings just fatten the sound.

[WelshJon]

Originally posted by Casemeister


Is it cheating? To a degree, perhaps...

I don't reckon so. These days, when every gig is going to end up on You Tube or a camera phone etc, the bands have got to give a visually good show AND get every note right too, and make the BVs sound as good as the CD, which isn't the easiest thing while 'performing'.
All of this has got to be consistent, too.
As long as the main singer isn't lip syncing and the band are singing along with, not instead of, the sampled vocs, bring it on.

[rocknrolldork]

Originally posted by WelshJon
The vocal is pre-recorded. Separate phrases are assigned to keys on the keyboard for the keys player to trigger at the appropriate time so the track doesn't have to be played to a click.

I'm not convinced the backing vox are piped in but if they are..... This is how it is done.

[Panamark]

Well for this theory to work, there would have to be
a fixed tempo, if a track is pre-recorded.

That would mean Al would need to listen to
a click...

And we all know what Al thinks of Click !!!

[Panamark]

although on short phrasings, you could probably get
away with slight tempo variations..

[WelshJon]

They've probably got more like single words than phrases sampled to individual keys so no click is needed. Just someone 'on the ball' to trigger the right ones.
I mean, I 've been in cover bands that do this, and we set it up ourselves (record vocals, edit to samples, assign to FX units, keys etc) so it's not really a big deal at all.

[ELVIS]

C'mon Panamark, you're smarter than that...

Todays computerized sync tracks have the ability to sync themselves as programmed to a particular song or beat...

The band doesn't worry about playing to a particular sync track, it's the other way around...

There are even drum sequencers and MIDI machines that are able to follow along with a guitar or other instrument that's being played...

Current technology is amazing...


:elvis:

[Little Lamont]

How long has this shit been going on?
Was Styx doing it in the 70's?

[ELVIS]

No...

[rocknrolldork]

None of the backing vox lines are long enough that it would require having individual keys for individual words. It would be hit the key, "oh woah woah Jamie's Cryin'." They have played the tunes enough times that the tempo doesn't change enough to make a difference. I still think it is more likely there is a keyboard player singing under or behind the stage, if they are using any additional vox at all.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by rocknrolldork
None of the backing vox lines are long enough that it would require having individual keys for individual words.

What...:confused:

They have played the tunes enough times that the tempo doesn't change enough to make a difference.

What...:confused:

I still think it is more likely there is a keyboard player singing under or behind the stage, if they are using any additional vox at all.

Yeah, he's in that big box in front of Edward...:rolleyes:




LMAO!

:elvis:

[rocknrolldork]

LOL. Always busting my balls dude.

I still think the backing vox are live and not piped in. From what I've seen, Ed's effects box on this tour only holds his stompboxes and channel switches for the amp. There is no mother trigger at the main soundboard and the computers that were running were operating the lights, operating some of the cameras, and recording the video/audio of the show. Our soundman ran the main stage monitor mix for the Indy show. When I asked him about piped in vox, he said all the vox were live.

[TVGUY]

I not really typing the reponse. It's being entered in by some guy in the other office drinking red bull!!

[Panamark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
C'mon Panamark, you're smarter than that...


There are even drum sequencers and MIDI machines that are able to follow along with a guitar or other instrument that's being played...

Current technology is amazing...


:elvis:

Agree, but the quantitizing software I have seen (and perhaps
I havent seen the best) is still a little hit/miss.
The obvious glitch I have noticed is that if a band was to
play a song quite noticeably faster or slower on a given night,
the tempo corrector can sometimes glitch and suddenly you
have the chipmonks doing backups due to pitch change :)
(In its attempt to sync the alternate tempo backing track)

Now I know there are tempo correctors and pitch correctors
in one, but even those make the track sound crappy if the
tempo of the original is changed too much..

Seems to work "most" the time, but I dunno if I would be relying
on that for those big shows.. They would have less problems
if they stuck thereabouts to a pre-agreed tempo ie:
120bpm and had the backing singer trigger the backing
track..

What if Ed wanted to throw in an extended lead break or
something spontaneous ??

[TVGUY]

Originally posted by TVGUY
I not really typing the reponse. It's being entered in by some guy in the other office drinking red bull!!

I need to fire that guy... He can't proof read at all!!

[brianjayy]

Originally posted by WelshJon
The vocal is pre-recorded. Separate phrases are assigned to keys on the keyboard for the keys player to trigger at the appropriate time so the track doesn't have to be played to a click.

Originally posted by Casemeister
Is it cheating? To a degree, perhaps, but Wolf and Ed are still singing. The backings just fatten the sound.
These ideas make the most sense, although it would seemingly be a clusterfuck constantly waiting to happen...but with Ed's tongue surgery and Wolf's lack of experience, the concept of reinforcing their vocals seems like good insurance...maybe glitches in this department have caused some of Ed's meltdowns...especially monitors heaved stage left...

[dave_is_vh]

Originally posted by rocknrolldork
I still think the backing vox are live and not piped in.

I was at the LA show and on MANY occasions Ed was nowhere near a mic with a cigarette in his mouth when the background vocals were being sung. Wolfie can't sing in harmony with himself. It is possible that there is someone backstage singing in harmony with Wolf but I really doubt it.

[katie]

http://www.vhvault.com/vhbass/Pics/mike&dave.jpg

GREAT DAYS!

[brianjayy]

Originally posted by katie
http://www.vhvault.com/vhbass/Pics/mike&dave.jpg

GREAT DAYS!

'Nuff said...that pic says mouthfuls...and in perfect harmony...meanwhile, Wolfie's slowly growing on me...

[Nickdfresh]

For a band like Van Halen, and Diamond Dave giving all sorts of lip service as too how they were the real deal when live, and seeing bands like Pink Floyd live just made him feel like he was "listening to a recording," I think this is just a little appalling...

I'm willing to forgive U2 and Pink Floyd for backing tracks, because their music features/ed complex harmonized backing vocals that two or three guys cannot reproduce live. VH's stuff was meant to be played live and was for the most part played live in the studio for that purpose. It's pretty shit to fire the bassist, stick your fat kid in, and then include all sorts of prerecorded vocal backing tracks (and God knows what else) to compensate. Whatever...IMO

[WACF]

It does not matter how they are doing it...the fact is it seems like they are.

Whether recorded, played or sung offstage it is all doable.

Nick is right...dump the bass player and this is what you get.

Whether Ed wants to admit it or not Mike was a very key part of the classic sound.

If Dave wants to say they are the real deal when it comes down to it($$$$) they will ensure they do what they have to in order to fill those seats and keep them comming.

Now they deal with it...


Another week and a half and I get my turn to check it out.

[katie]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It's pretty shit to fire the bassist, stick your fat kid in, and then include all sorts of prerecorded vocal backing tracks (and God knows what else) to compensate. Whatever...IMO

Agree 100% - 5 stars to you

[Panamark]

Whatever they are doing, sounds better than they did with
MA anyhow....

Flame away ! :)

Its disgusting that Eddie isnt playing the synth during
Jump too, if you are into that logic..

90% of what we are hearing is CVH, and I will take that
over anything Eddie and Alex have attempted since 1984..

[Nickdfresh]

No. No, the recordings with Micheal Anthony and pre-wastoid Ed playing and singing sound much better...

I guess what they have is better than nothing, but, certainly not better than things could be...

[Panamark]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No. No, the recordings with Micheal Anthony and pre-wastoid Ed playing and singing sound much better...

I guess what they have is better than nothing, but, certainly not better than things could be...

I cant argue with you on this one as I havent heard any
studio recordings with Wolf and Ed, yet !

Lets wait until then for that debate ;)

[Baby's On Fire]

Originally posted by WACF
It does not matter how they are doing it...the fact is it seems like they are.

Whether recorded, played or sung offstage it is all doable.

Nick is right...dump the bass player and this is what you get.

Whether Ed wants to admit it or not Mike was a very key part of the classic sound.

If Dave wants to say they are the real deal when it comes down to it($$$$) they will ensure they do what they have to in order to fill those seats and keep them comming.

Now they deal with it...


Another week and a half and I get my turn to check it out.


It has nothing to do with the bass player you morons.

Eddie is the reason pre-recorded vocals are needed, not Wolfgang.

You can't be this dumb. Tell me you're play acting.

[dave_is_vh]

Originally posted by Baby's On Fire
It has nothing to do with the bass player you morons.

Eddie is the reason pre-recorded vocals are needed, not Wolfgang.

You can't be this dumb. Tell me you're play acting.

Excellent point.

[Nickdfresh]

Then why is Ed on the track?

[naturochem]

Show me any band in any genre with this level of production and $$ behind a tour of this magnitude, and I'll assure you that technology will prevail on likely far more than fucking background vocals... and I believe this is all the "cheating" that is happening on this tour...

If bassplayer would have gotten the call, same end result would have ensued.

I understand the reservations & displeasure as it relates to the historically "live" feel/promise of all CVH, however, like analog recording, the "EVERYTHING LIVE" tour is simply a thing of the past....

Digidesign, & Pro Tool's have changed the music world forever...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by naturochem
Show me any band in any genre with this level of production and $$ behind a tour of this magnitude, and I'll assure you that technology will prevail on likely far more than fucking background vocals...

If that were the case, Ozzy weould be singing on the note...


:elvis:

[Panamark]

By the way, if anyone can tell me either the software, sequencer
or hardware device that will do both tempo and pitch
correction accurately on the fly, live, I want it !!

[naturochem]

Originally posted by ELVIS
If that were the case, Ozzy weould be singing on the note...

:elvis:
Even if it sounds like shit much of the time, you don't believe any of Ozzy's live performance is canned??

[naturochem]

Originally posted by Panamark
By the way, if anyone can tell me either the software, sequencer
or hardware device that will do both tempo and pitch
correction accurately on the fly, live, I want it !!
Try an Eventide H8000FW Ultra-Harmonizer Effects Processor, coupled with a Pro Tools HD workstation & I'm sure you'll be able to acomplish duplication of the Mormon Tabernacle's entire new release, or whateverelse suits your fancy...

I'm not a certified Pro Tools engineer, but have several friends that are, a few of whom are even virtual magicians with the equipment...

As I'm sure you are aware, Pro Tools options are many & quite varied... (http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?langid=1&navid=24)