It seems the debate is not over

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • scamper
    Commando
    • May 2005
    • 1073

    It seems the debate is not over

    Global-Warming Skeptics Raise A Storm In New York

    "Human contribution is small, probably not zero, and it's small compared to these other factors which we cannot change," such as the sun and ocean currents, said one conference participant.

    March 10, 2009
    By Nikola Krastev
    NEW YORK -- These are tough times to be a skeptic about global warming.

    Two years ago, an international United Nations panel concluded with near certainty that human activity plays a role in the planet's rising temperatures. And now, the new U.S. administration has vowed to spearhead international efforts to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions.

    But more than 600 people gathered in New York City this week at the International Conference on Climate Change say they are up to the challenge.

    Joseph Bast, president of the Heartland Institute, which organized the conference, argues that the extent and causes of global warming are far from proven. The goal of the gathering, he tells RFE/RL, is to provide a forum to challenge people like former U.S. Vice President Al Gore with a healthy dose of skepticism.

    "We think we have a great story to tell that more and more prominent scientists are coming out saying global warming is not a crisis, that the question of what causes it and how extensive it's going to be are wide open in the scientific community," Bast said.

    "And that message is not effectively reaching enough people," he adds. "So, by holding an event like this we hope that we can get the attention of more people and eventually have an effect on public policy."

    There is a special urgency at this year's gathering. Governments around the world are working on plans to further tax greenhouse-gas emissions, while U.S. President Barack Obama has proposed to roll greenhouse-gas emissions back to their 1990s levels.


    But many conference participants say those efforts are misguided. Those who acknowledge global warming is happening say the Earth is going through a natural, periodic cycle, with industrial activity contributing very little to the process.
    By the ideology which uses or misuses it -- it has gradually turned into the most efficient vehicle for advocating extensive government intervention into all fields of life and for suppressing human freedom and economic prosperity.


    The Heartland Institute bills itself as a free-market think tank. Until 2006, the Chicago-based group received money from oil giant Exxon Mobil, although that has now stopped. The institute has not shied away from taking up other controversial causes. For example, it also seeks to decrease high taxes on cigarettes and curbs on smokers.

    The keynote speech was delivered by Czech President Vaclav Klaus, who has become well-known for his opinions on the issue. Speaking to students at Columbia University a day later, he reaffirmed his vocal opposition to the concept that global warming is man-made.

    "The problem is not global warming," Klaus said. "By the ideology which uses or misuses it -- it has gradually turned into the most efficient vehicle for advocating extensive government intervention into all fields of life and for suppressing human freedom and economic prosperity."


    Al Gore has won worldwide acclaim for his environmental activities and especially for raising awareness about climate change with the film "An Inconvenient Truth." In 2007 he won the Nobel Peace Prize along with the UN panel for his climate-change-awareness activities.

    Bast of the Heartland Institute argues that although Gore is the most prominent spokesman for the man-made climate-change cause, his arguments lie "way outside the mainstream scientific community."

    Czech President Vaclav Klaus is a well-known skeptic of climate change.
    "Very few qualified scientists would say that Al Gore and what he says in his film is accurate. He grossly overstates the possibility of sea-level rise for example," Bast says.

    "There's simply no peer-reviewed scientific literature that would justify predictions of a 20-foot [6-meter] rise in sea level, and yet that's very prominent in his film."

    Dr. Howard MacCabee, an oncologist in California and a conference participant, says that even very liberal estimates show that industrial pollution by itself has negligible or little effect on global warming.

    "Human contribution is small, probably not zero, and it's small compared to these other factors which we cannot change. We cannot change the sun, we cannot change [the sun's] multidecadal oscillations, we can't change ocean currents, we can't stop El Nino," MacCabee says.

    "El Nino was the biggest spike on the temperature for the past 40 years. That was in 1998 and the hottest year in our recent history was the 1998, the year of El Nino, which has nothing to do with CO2 [carbon dioxide]," he adds.

    For now, the conference participants seem to be losing the argument.

    A recent opinion poll in the United States showed that 58 percent of respondents believe climate change is at least partly caused by humans. But another poll, by the Pew Research Center, indicates that in these times of economic turmoil, addressing climate change is not a top priority for many Americans.
  • scamper
    Commando
    • May 2005
    • 1073

    #2
    Link:

    Global-Warming Skeptics Raise A Storm In New York - Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty © 2009

    Comment

    • Andy Taylor
      Banned
      • Jan 2009
      • 918

      #3
      Das right, nigga! We need to hear more of this side and less from the evil Clint/Gore's.

      Comment

      • LoungeMachine
        DIAMOND STATUS
        • Jul 2004
        • 32555

        #4


        stfu with that shit.


        Just re-watched An Inconvenient Truth last weekend.

        Keep you head in sand, people. Denial = ignorance.

        Originally posted by Kristy
        Dude, what in the fuck is wrong with you? I'm full of hate and I do drugs.
        Originally posted by cadaverdog
        I posted under aliases and I jerk off with a sock. Anything else to add?

        Comment

        • Andy Taylor
          Banned
          • Jan 2009
          • 918

          #5
          ...
          Originally posted by loungemachine
          denial = ignorance.
          ..

          Comment

          • Combat Ready
            Foot Soldier
            • Mar 2007
            • 572

            #6
            "In 50 years New York City is going to be underwater from global warming," – 2002, former president Bill Clinton.

            I think the statement is bullshit. I'll bet a Benjamin that NYC won't be underwater in 2052...Any takers?
            Last edited by Combat Ready; 03-11-2009, 02:16 PM.

            Comment

            • sadaist
              TOASTMASTER GENERAL
              • Jul 2004
              • 11625

              #7
              Originally posted by LoungeMachine
              Just re-watched An Inconvenient Truth last weekend.

              Keep you head in sand, people. Denial = ignorance.


              I watched that movie. Was interesting. I've also seen a lot of articles & news pieces that refute much of the "facts" used in the film. I'm not sold on the Global Warming idea and I believe it's bullshit to push personal agendas.

              With that said...what the fuck is wrong with having a cleaner environment?
              “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

              Comment

              • Nickdfresh
                SUPER MODERATOR

                • Oct 2004
                • 49125

                #8
                March 9, 2009
                Skeptics Dispute Climate Worries and Each Other
                By ANDREW C. REVKIN

                More than 600 self-professed climate skeptics are meeting in a Times Square hotel this week to challenge what has become a broad scientific and political consensus: that without big changes in energy choices, humans will dangerously heat up the planet.

                The three-day International Conference on Climate Change — organized by the Heartland Institute, a nonprofit group seeking deregulation and unfettered markets — brings together political figures, conservative campaigners, scientists, an Apollo astronaut and the president of the Czech Republic, Vaclav Klaus.

                Organizers say the discussions, which began Sunday, are intended to counter the Obama administration and Democratic lawmakers, who have vowed to tackle global warming with legislation requiring cuts in the greenhouse gases that scientists have linked to rising temperatures.

                But two years after the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded with near certainty that most of the recent warming was a result of human influences, global warming’s skeptics are showing signs of internal rifts and weakening support.

                The meeting participants hold a wide range of views of climate science. Some concede that humans probably contribute to global warming but they argue that the shift in temperatures poses no urgent risk. Others attribute the warming, along with cooler temperatures in recent years, to solar changes or ocean cycles.

                But large corporations like Exxon Mobil, which in the past financed the Heartland Institute and other groups that challenged the climate consensus, have reduced support. Many such companies no longer dispute that the greenhouse gases produced by burning fossil fuels pose risks.

                From 1998 to 2006, Exxon Mobil, for example, contributed more than $600,000 to Heartland, according to annual reports of charitable contributions from the company and company foundations.

                Alan T. Jeffers, a spokesman for Exxon Mobil, said by e-mail that the company had ended support “to several public policy research groups whose position on climate change could divert attention from the important discussion about how the world will secure the energy required for economic growth in an environmentally responsible manner.”

                Joseph L. Bast, the president of the Heartland Institute, said Exxon and other companies were just shifting their stance to improve their image. The Heartland meeting, he said, was the last bastion of intellectual honesty on the climate issue.

                “Major corporations are painting themselves green around global warming,” Mr. Bast said, adding that the companies have shifted their lobbying and public relations efforts toward trying to shape climate legislation in their favor. He said that contributions, over all, had continued to rise.

                But Kert Davies, a climate campaigner for Greenpeace, who is attending the Heartland event, said that the experts giving talks were “a shrinking collection of extremists” and that they were “left talking to themselves.”

                Organizers expected to top the attendance of about 500 at the first Heartland conference, held last year. They also point to the speaker’s roster, which included Mr. Klaus and Harrison Schmitt, a geologist, Apollo astronaut and former senator.

                A centerpiece of the 2008 meeting was the release of a report, “Nature, Not Human Activity, Rules the Planet.” The document was expressly designed as a challenge to the reports from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

                This year, the meeting will focus on a more nuanced question: “Global warming: Was it ever a crisis?”

                Most of the talks at the meeting will challenge climate orthodoxy. But some presenters, including prominent figures who have been vocal in their criticism in the past, say they will also call on their colleagues to synchronize the arguments they are using against plans to curb greenhouse gases.

                In a keynote talk Sunday night, Richard S. Lindzen, a professor at M.I.T. and a longtime skeptic of the mainstream consensus that global warming poses a danger, first delivered a biting attack on what he called the “climate alarm movement.”

                There is no solid scientific evidence to back up the models used by climate scientists who warn of dire consequences if warming continues, he said. But Dr. Lindzen also criticized widely publicized assertions by other skeptics that variations in the sun were driving temperature changes in recent decades. To attribute short-term variation in temperatures to a single cause, whether human-generated gases or something else, is erroneous, he said.

                Speaking of the sun’s slight variability, he said, “Acting as though this is the alternative” to blaming greenhouse gases “is asking for trouble.”

                S. Fred Singer, a physicist often referred to by critics and supporters alike as the dean of climate contrarians, said that he would be running public and private sessions on Monday aimed at focusing participants on which skeptical arguments were supported by science and which were not.

                “As a physicist, I am concerned that some skeptics (a very few) are ignoring the physical basis,” Dr. Singer said in an e-mail message.

                “There is one who denies that CO2 is a greenhouse gas, which goes against actual data,” Dr. Singer said, adding that other skeptics wrongly contend that “humans are not responsible for the measured increase in atmospheric CO2.”

                There are notable absences from the conference this year. Russell Seitz, a physicist from Cambridge, Mass., gave a talk at last year’s meeting. But Dr. Seitz, who has lambasted environmental campaigners as distorting climate science, now warns that the skeptics are in danger of doing the same thing.

                The most strident advocates on either side of the global warming debate, he said, are “equally oblivious to the data they seek to discount or dramatize.”

                John R. Christy, an atmospheric scientist at the University of Alabama who has long publicly questioned projections of dangerous global warming, most recently at a House committee hearing last month, said he had skipped both Heartland conferences to avoid the potential for “guilt by association.”

                Many participants said that any division or dissent was minor and that the global recession and a series of years with cooler temperatures would help them in combating changes in energy policy in Washington.

                “The only place where this alleged climate catastrophe is happening is in the virtual world of computer models, not in the real world,” said Marc Morano, a speaker at the meeting and a spokesman on environmental issues for Senator James M. Inhofe, Republican of Oklahoma.

                But several climate scientists who are seeking to curb greenhouse gases strongly criticized the meeting. Stephen H. Schneider, a climatologist at Stanford University and an author of many reports by the intergovernmental climate panel, said, after reviewing the text of presentations for the Heartland meeting, that they were efforts to “bamboozle the innocent.”

                Yvo de Boer, head of the United Nations office managing international treaty talks on climate change, said, “I don’t believe that what the skeptics say should provide any excuse to delay further” action against global warming.

                But he added: “Skeptics are good. It’s important to give people the confidence that the issue is being called into question.”

                An earlier version of this article used the wrong middle initial for the atmospheric scientist at the University of Alabama. His name is John R. Christy.


                Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company

                The debate is all over but the shouting as even major corporate contributors that benefit from the Climate Change-Denier movement are too embarrassed by its pseudo-science...

                Comment

                • binnie
                  DIAMOND STATUS
                  • May 2006
                  • 19144

                  #9
                  Originally posted by sadaist

                  With that said...what the fuck is wrong with having a cleaner environment?

                  Exactly.
                  The Power Of The Riff Compels Me

                  Comment

                  • Guitar Shark
                    ROTH ARMY SUPREME
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 7576

                    #10
                    Originally posted by sadaist
                    I watched that movie. Was interesting. I've also seen a lot of articles & news pieces that refute much of the "facts" used in the film. I'm not sold on the Global Warming idea and I believe it's bullshit to push personal agendas.

                    With that said...what the fuck is wrong with having a cleaner environment?
                    I never understood the argument that people who believe in climate change have an "agenda," let alone a "personal agenda." If the argument is that Gore makes money on his movies, etc., I can understand that, but what about the vast majority of scientists and experts who agree with him? They don't make any more money off their opinion than the experts on the other side.
                    ROTH ARMY MILITIA


                    Originally posted by EAT MY ASSHOLE
                    Sharky sometimes needs things spelled out for him in explicit, specific detail. I used to think it was a lawyer thing, but over time it became more and more evident that he's merely someone's idiot twin.

                    Comment

                    • sadaist
                      TOASTMASTER GENERAL
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 11625

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Guitar Shark
                      I never understood the argument that people who believe in climate change have an "agenda," let alone a "personal agenda." If the argument is that Gore makes money on his movies, etc., I can understand that, but what about the vast majority of scientists and experts who agree with him? They don't make any more money off their opinion than the experts on the other side.
                      If you're looking for a scientists agenda, look for which side will get them published, quoted or interviewed the most...and which will attract the most Federal research money & charitable donations.
                      “Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings.”

                      Comment

                      • Andy Taylor
                        Banned
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 918

                        #12
                        "No, I'm not being conditioned, my mind is my own!"

                        Just in case you thought you weren't being sold propaganda through sources like Hollywood...

                        ... or in this case Fox, and I don't mean through news.

                        TCFTV's Climate Change Commitment Video Video by Shira - MySpace Video

                        Comment

                        • swage33
                          Head Fluffer
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 311

                          #13
                          I'm 38 years old. My contemporaries on this site will remember that back in the '70's it was a big deal to get a transmission "via satellite". Now, we're talking early '70's, late '60's at the best of global satellite technology. That is our real snapshot of global climate. When was the first time any of you heard the term, "El Nino"? The early '90's, right? El Nino is a cyclical weather pattern that may or may not be reoccurring since the beginning of time. My point being that we are ALL very ignorant of the earth's weather cycles. If anyone can agree with this....how fucking looney is it that the FEAR of global warming is now shaping public policy? Can you see how powerful FEAR is? Thats why I say, "If all you got to offer is fear, fuck you!".
                          High quality hate while you wait

                          Comment

                          • Andy Taylor
                            Banned
                            • Jan 2009
                            • 918

                            #14
                            That's what 'global terrorism' is all about.

                            Comment

                            • Combat Ready
                              Foot Soldier
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 572

                              #15
                              Originally posted by sadaist
                              I watched that movie. Was interesting. I've also seen a lot of articles & news pieces that refute much of the "facts" used in the film. I'm not sold on the Global Warming idea and I believe it's bullshit to push personal agendas.

                              With that said...what the fuck is wrong with having a cleaner environment?
                              Great post Sadaist...Spot on.

                              Might make good sense to be building some nuclear power plants right now? Lessens our dependence on fossil fuels, is a clean source of energy, and would put people to work immediately.

                              Any ideas as to why this is not a priority for the politicians?

                              Comment

                              Working...