I've got a troublesome problem [Archive] - The Diamond David Lee Roth Army

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Dr. Love

03-13-2009, 12:18 AM

So here's the backstory.

During the whole time I lived with my parents (until about 10 years ago, and then 5 more off and on while I was in college), I and other members of my family (my sister, mother) have had what I'll call "strange occurances" at the houses we've lived.

In some cases it was a sudden and overwhelming feeling of unease, where you become acutely aware of a presence nearby where there was not on before. Kind of like when you can tell someone enters a room behind you; a feeling of difference in the air pressure in the room.

In some cases, it was hearing footsteps crunching the carpet in the room as you try to sleep, or pressure on the bed next to you, or the blanket being slowly pulled off of you. Or when you look at your digital alarm clock and realize you can only see half or less of the numbers. :)

Sometimes it's the feeling of being followed around. Sometimes followed uncomfortably close. On one occassion, I was chased. Sometimes you hear things -- the clicking of heels on tile, or steps on a staircase. Thumping around on above you as if someone was walking around heavily in the room above you (in 2 story houses).

Sometimes, you see it. For me, it was like seeing the air above assphalt on a hot day in reverse; A spot in the room would seem like the air was more condensed than the air around it, and it would move... walk... around. For my sister, she would see the person. Sometimes they would come in the room she was in and sit and look at her.

In both of our cases, it was seeing it not with your eyes, but with your mind's eye. Like you see your daydreams. You get the impression you see it, but you don't REALLY see it. When I was small, I could hear them in the house, saying my name ... over and over and over. It would drive me outside because I couldn't stand it.

Several years ago, there was one place that was particularly bad. People would be pushed around. It would pull on the blankets when you slept. It would poke people in the back of the neck, or pull their hair. You could hear it walking around, and slam doors.

The first day we moved into the house, my sister saw it. He introduced himself to her as Robert, and told her one of the rooms was his. We were still picking rooms so she thought it was one of my friends (they were helping me move) and thought he was joking.

I don't know anyone named Robert.

Fast forward a few years, I've moved out, my sister's moved out, gotten married and had kids. My parents have moved a bit and haven't really had many problems. I haven't had any. My sister hasn't had any.

My youngest nephew, since Christmas, has been acting oddly. I've seen it. My sister and parents have seen it. When he's at my parent's house, he sometimes says, "He isn't going to hurt me, is he?" This is something he says when he meets strangers. Normally we tell him, "No, that's a friend." or "We don't know him." or "He's a nice person."

You know, he's 3 years old. It's something he does. Anyway, he's started asking us that out of the blue. Usually we ask him who, and he'll say:

Him.

For a while each of us dismissed it. We'd say "Him who?" and he'd just say "Him". We figure he's playing or being weird. He's 3. Well, in the last month or two, that's changed.

He started saying it again. A lot. And he won't stay in a room by himself. When he stays at home, he'll play in his room alone. He'll get up in the night and go pee. He's fine. When he stays at my parents house, he won't stay alone. If he falls asleep and you put him in his own bed, away from you, he'll pee in the bed rather than get up. He's scared, all the time. And he constantly wants to know, "Will he hurt me?"

It's disconcerting. But not as disconcerting as what has been going on in the last 3 weeks.

He was at my mom's house, and was talking to my Mom, and suddenly cut off and watched something walk by. Later, he was sitting with my Mom, and did it again, but this time he watched it walk over right next to him, and looked up higher and higher, like when you watch someone walk up to you that is tall. He then got very anxious, not wanting to be alone, crying and pressing up against my Mom. He wanted to know "Is he going to hurt me?"

Finally enough people had seen enough that they started asking questions. They asked who. He said "Him." We showed him some pictures of family members who had died, and he said no and said it's not <insert family member name here>. They kept asking and he kept getting more agitated and pointed and shouted "HIM!"

This has happened regularly since then. My Mom babysits him fairly often. Sometimes he's fine for a few days, but fairly regularly he wants to know if someone who is not there will hurt him. We've told him the person isn't there. He insists he is. He can describe what he looks like. He tells us that it's not a boy, it's a tall man. My nephew gets very agitated whenever he is around.

Yesterday it happened again, and again my Mom told him there was no one there. And again he insisted he was and pointed. My Mom looked and asked who he was talking about -- no one is there. And so my nephew told her.

Robert.

We've never talked about this with my nephew. He's 3 years old. We don't want to scare him. Honestly, I haven't thought about it in a long time, usually only around halloween when people tell ghost stories. But when they told me, it was like a cold chill down my spine.

In any event, we had a family meeting to talk about it. We've all noticed the same behavior but haven't talked much about it until recently. Additionally (and I lend very little credence to this), my parents have talked to people about this before, and have been told there's something in their house.

At the time (late last year), they denied it, saying they've had no problems. Apparently they were told it was there, and that it would make itself known in time, and more than that, it's one that they've had problems with before.

So I dunno. Draw your own conclusions. To me, I don't want my nephew to go through the experiences I went through -- especially if it is the same Robert. It was terrifying at times. Not something to put a 3 year old through.

Apparently something like this happened to my Aunt when she was about the same age... an old couple, a man and a woman, followed her around. She would talk to my grandmother a lot about it, and would be told no one was there. Eventually, my grandmother got tired of it and had my aunt show her exactly where they were.

Then, my grandmother told got on "their" case and told them to leave my Aunt alone, to go away and that they were not welcome and were bothering my Aunt and were causing problems. Supposedly my Aunt never saw them again. My parents are going to try that next time my nephew sees him.

I hope whatever it is, if anything, goes away. I'd hate for them to do that and my nephew to say that it didn't. For my nephew's case, and because it's damn creepy enough as it is. My nephew is an extraordinarily honest kid. He doesn't make up stuff for attention; he's sweet and loving and very genuine. A good kid. I don't think he's making this stuff up, especially given how genuinely agitated he gets and how he will suddenly react. He can be in the middle of talking to you and something will just catch his attention that isn't there and completely cut him off, and he'll get very agitated.

Even worse, I suppose, would be if they tell Robert to go away, and he did... to my nephew's house. :|

Anyway, I know this is a very odd topic and I'm just basically curious if anyone has any insight or experience or suggestions. Even hilarious ones.

Little Texan

03-13-2009, 01:20 AM

I've never had any experience with ghosts or spirits, but my mother told me when she and her husband used to live in Denton (TX), they lived in this house and she would hear strange noises at night while she was there alone such as pans banging around in the kitchen and footsteps. She said she hated to be alone in that house at night because it scared the shit out of her.

hideyoursheep

03-13-2009, 06:00 AM

Dude, call ghostbusters...
The Atlantic Paranormal Society (TAPS) (http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/communicate/contactus.html)

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 06:08 AM

It's your imagination. The build up of air behind you may be caused by eating too many beans.

The kid has an imaginary friend like many kids have and you've unconsciously freaked him out by your reactions. The more you react the more he'll do it.

Trust me there are no ghosts, spirits, sprites, goblins, werewolves or invisible badgers.

Cheers!

:gulp:

hideyoursheep

03-13-2009, 06:27 AM

CVH Rulz

03-13-2009, 08:01 AM

Children can see ghosts that adults can't. I don't know the reasoning behind it other than maybe they don't have the idea in their head that they don't exist.

Do you ever watch the "Ghost Whisperer?" You'll learn a lot. It's on tonight. If nothing else, the chick's hot.

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 08:05 AM

Children can see ghosts that adults can't.

Yeah and they shit themselves and find Barney entertaining...

LoungeMachine

03-13-2009, 02:53 PM

Here's where Sesh and my views on "religion", spirituality, afterlife, diverge....

Without getting into detail of my own experience, I ABSOLUTELY know [not believe] there is something out there past this dimension/life/world.

That doesn't mean there's any truth to the Book of Talking Snakes, or any other "organized" religion.

But there IS something else out there, and NO ONE is going to ever convince me otherwise after what I experienced.

Good story, Dr. Love.

:gulp:

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 03:13 PM

... Without getting into detail of my own experience, I ABSOLUTELY know [not believe] there is something out there past this dimension/life/world...

... But there IS something else out there, and NO ONE is going to ever convince me otherwise after what I experienced.

Good story, Dr. Love.

:gulp:

I agree with that.
I also have my own experience and heard some, from trustworthy people that have no interest in lying about those things...

There IS something (everyone names it differently) and that something, sometimes reaches out for us. I think it's just a matter of being open and receptive to it or not.

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 03:22 PM

When I was a kid I saw a ghost in our apartment frequently, and I, too, was too scared to go to the bathroom at night that either I would wake up my brother to walk to the bathroom with me or hold it in until the morning. I didn't tell my parents about seeing the ghost because I couldn't believe my eyes either. My dad doesn't believe in ghosts so I felt safe with him around because his presence drove away any ghosts.

About 10 years ago, I had visited a fortune teller who told me there were 3 ghosts in the apartment where we lived, but they were harmless. I was stunned upon hearing this as I had only seen one little ghost girl and had never told anyone about what I saw at home. The woman gave instructions to banish them. We burned incense and scattered some rice onto the ground. I didn't see any ghosts for a while after that. Until about 6 years ago, I had experiences with waking up suddenly at night feeling a heavy weight upon me. All my limbs were immobile, and I tried calling out to my brother and my parents but could not get my vocal chords to work. All that came out was a hoarse whisper. It was terrifying. It happened to my mom, too, one time when she took an afternoon nap. We moved out of that apartment ASAP.

I really believe that ghosts exist. Now when I step into an empty room or empty hallway, I approach slowly and cautiously getting a feel for the atmosphere. I don't want to offend or disturb any spirits if they are around. Sometimes I wonder if the ones I saw were in some kind of trouble or distressed about something from their past lives, something they had not had a chance to finish doing before they died and were seeking help from me? I don't know. I'm too terrified to find out what they want from me. Chills are going down spine as I'm typing this.

Chills as I'm reading this, Chan.!

I used to be afraid, land ike you, wake up people to escort me in the dark of the night... But since I got very ill last summer (and was diagnosed to die), something happened to me spiritually... I am not afraid of that kind of "unknown" at all anymore!

A miracle happened to me and I beleive that there is something mighty good out there that is stronger than the bad (SOMETIMES)!

Although, I also beleive there is evil but it doesn't scare me...

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 03:24 PM

It's true. Take a baby house hunting, and if the baby cries for no reason, there's something not right with the house/apartment.

We bought a house last spring and brought our 1 year 1/2 old son everytime we visited...
It would be interesting to have you here and talk about that stuff, over a couple bottles of wine Chan.!

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 03:26 PM

Kids don't make stuff up if they haven't been fed the "material" to do so before (at that age)...
And it is easy to tell when a kid is lying.
Good luck with that and thanks for sharing, Dr. Love!

Nickdfresh

03-13-2009, 05:06 PM

Dr. Love, is your parents house located in the general vicinity of power lines? (serious question)...

Guitar Shark

03-13-2009, 05:17 PM

Without getting into detail of my own experience, I ABSOLUTELY know [not believe] there is something out there past this dimension/life/world.

That doesn't mean there's any truth to the Book of Talking Snakes, or any other "organized" religion.

But there IS something else out there, and NO ONE is going to ever convince me otherwise after what I experienced.

Finally, the mystery of LoungeMachine's identity is solved. He is Sammy Hagar.

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 05:28 PM

It's true. Take a baby house hunting, and if the baby cries for no reason, there's something not right with the house/apartment.

Also if you hear a badger squeal on the way to view a house you must take off your socks, put them on your ears and say felchineep three times or the evil spirits who live under your bed will eat you.

Panamark

03-13-2009, 05:34 PM

Sesh is an expert regarding evil spirits, just read his posts ! :biggrin:

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 06:05 PM

GAR

03-13-2009, 06:50 PM

There is no such thing as ghosts in the sense as used here in Dr Love's tale of boo.

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 07:20 PM

There is no such thing as ghosts in the sense as used here in Dr Love's tale of boo.

Why do you think that Dr. Love (or anyonelse in this thread) would be lying about their experiences?
Since you weren't there when it happened?
Because you haven't encountered anything yourself, doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

blonddgirl777

03-13-2009, 07:24 PM

I'm not one of the people here that seems to have smoked so much that they're getting mixed up about what happened to them and what they saw in a movie.:)

So far we have 6th Sense, Poltergeist and Ghostbusters... :)

Don't forget Amitiville! L.O.L.

But what if someone you fully trust and respect (and doesn't smoke dope) tells you about something "strange" that happened to them... Would you beleive them?

bastardson

03-13-2009, 07:31 PM

But there IS something else out there, and NO ONE is going to ever convince me otherwise after what I experienced.

Just because you prayed your "funny" uncle would die and the
ass rapings would stop and he did proves nothing.
It was just his time.
Maybe it was something hereditary.
That's probably wishful thinking.

Guitar Shark

03-13-2009, 07:33 PM

I am a skeptic by nature, particularly when it comes to things like religion. But I don't know if I view "ghosts" or the "supernatural" the same way.

Doc, all kidding aside, that's a creepy story and I hope it works out ok for your nephew and his family.

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 07:35 PM

Don't forget Amitiville! L.O.L.

But what if someone you fully trust and respect (and doesn't smoke dope) tells you about something "strange" that happened to them... Would you beleive them?

I would believe that's what they felt or imagined or maybe there was a coincidence or a natural phenomena but that doesn't make it ghosties or dragons or flying spaghetti monsters.

LoungeMachine

03-13-2009, 07:35 PM

I am a skeptic by nature, particularly when it comes to things like religion. .

Exactly my feelings.

Which is why it had such an impact on me, as I had to re-think my beliefs.

Still doubt that Old World Reader's Digest crap of a book, however. ;)

:gulp:

Reverberator

03-13-2009, 07:49 PM

I don't believe in religion but I do believe in the things that I've experienced and that's good enough for me.

Angel

03-13-2009, 07:52 PM

Have to say this is one of the few times I'm not in agreement with Sesh... I too, believe in "ghosts"...

Blaze

03-13-2009, 08:25 PM

Dr. Love, is your parents house located in the general vicinity of power lines? (serious question)...

Very good question.

I apologize Chan, I had stepped away after reading and posted when I got back....

Little Texan

03-13-2009, 08:46 PM

Until about 6 years ago, I had experiences with waking up suddenly at night feeling a heavy weight upon me. All my limbs were immobile, and I tried calling out to my brother and my parents but could not get my vocal chords to work. All that came out was a hoarse whisper. It was terrifying. It happened to my mom, too, one time when she took an afternoon nap. We moved out of that apartment ASAP.

That sounds like it may be this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)

Dr. Love

03-13-2009, 08:50 PM

With regard to power lines: In previous hosues, no. I'd have to check where they are at but I don't believe so. It's something that's occurred to me, too.

Also, I don't eat beans very often. Not my thing.

Normally I'm very scientific. I typically believe that when you die, you're dead, that's that. Given it all, I don't know what to think. Even given my own wide set of experiences (some of them so irrationally and uncontrollably terrifying it would induce tears and give rise to a fight or flight instinct so overwhelming it was almost impossible to resist) I'm still inclined to be skeptical.

I typically try to keep an open mind and look for any evidence I can, even circumstantial, and think about the likelihood of all things. The hard part of it all to reconcile for me is my nephew. He's not doing it for attention. When he first started asking about the person, it was very quiet and he would do it quietly and would not make a big issue out of it.

To date, he's become much, much more agitated, asking us if the person will hurt him, if he's going with us when we go to dinner, and at times has asked us to tell him to go away. The kid is clearly very bothered by something. The Robert thing could be coincidental but honestly it bothers me to think about it.

I dunno. I'd personally like to have the issue resolved and not have my nephew freaked out from time to time, suddenly and inexplicably.

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 08:53 PM

That sounds like it may be this. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis)

Mr Texan is correct. This is a well documented and understood condition. I had a friend when I was a kid who it used to happen to.

Unpleasant but not ghosties...

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 08:55 PM

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 08:56 PM

Apologize? Please. I don't have a monopoly on this. We can both be curious about the vicinity of power lines possibly having an effect on ghostly sightings. :)

It's that goddamn magical electrickery attracting the ghosties... :)

Blaze

03-13-2009, 08:56 PM

Apologize? Please. I don't have a monopoly on this. We can both be curious about the vicinity of power lines possibly having an effect on ghostly sightings. :)

Thanks!
I am not up to explaining it and researching a cohesive science based explanation. However, from off the top of my head.....
Electrical fields create variations in magnetic fluctuations, these fluctuations are known to cause anomalies in beings (and things of matter)

Even electrical wire concentration as small as a concentration of home wires can cause certain persons to notice anomalies in and around their beings.

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 09:00 PM

There have been a huge amount of studies on power lines and they've never found any decent evidence.

It's the same with mobile phone towers but hey I signed the petition against one being put up near our house.

Better safe than sorry and all that but ultimately you have to go with the evidence and there isn't any.

Blaze

03-13-2009, 09:07 PM

Not all anomalies are harmful, some are just annoying. :hitch:

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 09:08 PM

Why do you think that Dr. Love (or anyonelse in this thread) would be lying about their experiences?
Since you weren't there when it happened?
Because you haven't encountered anything yourself, doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

About 20 years ago I was out one night and became aware of a strange hovering light which looked about 2 miles away.

It seemed to move a little, it shimmered but it absolutely was not a plane. I wondered if it could be a helicopter but there was no reason for one to be there at that time of night. It certainly wasn't the moon as it was there in another part of the sky and it was much too small but too big to be a star.

I looked at it for 20 minutes or so thinking well that's a bit fucking odd. I had seen a UFO.

The next day the newspaper reported that nearly a hundred people had phoned the police station seeing the same thing.

None of them were telling lies or trying to deceive people.

Turned out it was Venus in an unusually bright low position.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Blaze

03-13-2009, 09:14 PM

Uhuh, sure it was.....:biggrin:
That's what the EEC, NWA, and the Illuminati wants you to believe!:biggrin:

Seshmeister

03-13-2009, 10:02 PM

Buzzed by those damn Venusians and their ghostie ways.

I felt violated. Not the full anal probe thing like Hagar but they took the piss out of me and it was naughty.

Dr. Love

03-13-2009, 11:29 PM

For me, if there is a lack of physical manifestation I'll chalk it up to the mind playing tricks. When there's a clear pattern of incidence, with physically manifesting effects, and more than one person encounter it together and in isolation, I start to be more open minded.

Ghosts or not, whatever it is, something is occuring. What it is, I don't know.

blonddgirl777

03-14-2009, 08:28 AM

... Turned out it was Venus in an unusually bright low position.

Cheers!

:gulp:

WOW!!!
So... Is she a blonde, a brunette or a redhead? :)

Panamark

03-14-2009, 08:43 AM

I have a ghost in my house that keeps drinking all my beers !!
He is friendly like casper as he always leaves a couple for me....

hideyoursheep

03-14-2009, 09:30 AM

I have a ghost in my house that keeps drinking all my beers !!
He is friendly like casper as he always leaves a couple for me....

Do you ever see him when you're shaving?
:biggrin:

hideyoursheep

03-14-2009, 09:43 AM

I'm gonna keep you busy tonight!

Get the lube...

Nickdfresh

03-14-2009, 11:36 AM

Sorry, if I may butt in. Does electricity have anything to do with this? The reason that I ask is I frequently get shocked when I come into contact with things and people. The most bizarre thing to happen recently was that the paper shredder in the office at work turned off as soon as I stood in front of it. That paper shredder is on all the time and doesn't have a sleep mode.

Butt in anytime you like :)...

I've read a little on parapsychology, and one of the more "scientific" theories is that electrical fields within spaces can effect the human brain and cause disruptions in our consciousness and perceptions. I think I saw something on the Discovery Channel where a parapsychologist believed that the rather disturbingly violent haunting of a house was caused by the inhabitants being surrounded by a powerful electrical field of power-lines that was intensified by an underground water flow. One of the incidents was that the husband claimed he was 'attacked' by something in the shower and saw visions of blood and soil going down the drain. The people seemed more believable than your normal sort.

We can argue whether the electrical fields cause internalized hallucinations from within the human brain, or if they open up something that is external, supernatural, and possibly quantum physic. But there is little argument that electrical fields can have a huge impact on the human brain, both negative and positive, as magnets can be used to relieve depression for instance...

Nickdfresh

03-14-2009, 11:41 AM

Dr. Love

03-14-2009, 11:54 AM

Cite one. :)

That's "[citation needed]"

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

katie

03-14-2009, 01:23 PM

Here's where Sesh and my views on "religion", spirituality, afterlife, diverge....

Without getting into detail of my own father raping me experience, I ABSOLUTELY know [not believe] there is something out there past this dimension/life/world.

But there IS something else out there, and NO ONE is going to ever convince me otherwise after what I experienced.

Good story, Dr. Love.

:gulp:

I'm sorry to hear that Lounge.

Do you ever get flashbacks?

.

LoungeMachine

03-14-2009, 04:42 PM

I'm sorry to hear that Lounge.

Do you ever get flashbacks?

.

Rewriting quotes?

Come back when you have some game, dear.

Your little vacation we gave you didn't do the trick.

Hope you get better soon. Stay on the Valtrex.

:gulp:

Nickdfresh

03-14-2009, 04:47 PM

Is that you, Sesh? :D

Nationwide ghost debunking exercise launched by Professor - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/4986289/Nationwide-ghost-debunking-exercise-launched-by-Professor.html)

FORD

03-14-2009, 06:05 PM

Summer of 1996 I shared this house with a couple of friends. Between all the political organizing during the day, and the parties at night, we were rarely alone, but there seemed to be a fourth person living with us, even though we didn't see them. And when some friends and I were performing a Native American "house cleansing" ceremony, we all felt the presence of this spirit being there. We didn't get the impression that the spirit was malevolent or wished any sort of harm on us, just that it was "confused" and didn't know how to leave and move on to a place where spirits belong.

Of course my housemates weren't present when I did this particular ceremony. If they had been, I might have heard the back story on the "uninvited guest". That came several weeks later. One of my housemates freaked out about some circumstances that had nothing to do with ghosts, spirits, or anything else relevant, but all the same it eventually meant we had to give up the house. The other housemate was a delegate to the national Democratic convention that year, so his parents had to move his stuff out of the house while he was out of town.

His mom says, "Oh, looks like Harvey's going to be moving back in with us"

I ask "Harvey? who's that?"

"He's the ghost that goes wherever this flag is".

Oh..... sure would have been nice if Don had mentioned that to us!

This was one of those "official" US issued flags. Like the ones they put on the coffins at military funerals, and then fold up into a triangle and present to the widow or other designated next of kin. Except this was a 48 star version, so it would have been older.

So did we have the ghost of some old veteran "living" with us, and confused as to why he was "evicted" from his home in Orting, and then the student housing at Evergreen? Draw your own conclusions, but I believe it.

And aside from this story, I've seen numerous other things in my life that indicate a reality not explained by what we know of the physical world, but none that really fit this thread, like that story does.

hideyoursheep

03-14-2009, 11:03 PM

If there are such a thing a spirits, or whatever, and they get pissed over me owning a piece of furniture they no longer use, then they'd better use it!

When they do, I'll be sure to post the video.
;)

hideyoursheep

03-14-2009, 11:27 PM

You would make a great bodyguard because you're well versed in MMA and are a non-believer in ghosts.

And if you do post such a clip, I won't be watching it. :scared14:

Don't put too much confidence in me...:notworthy:

We would both be in trouble!

FORD

03-14-2009, 11:28 PM

Rob Zombie would probably buy something like that hoping it had some spirits attached. And if anything weird happened as a result, he's got a movie plot. Although my own experience with poor old "Harvey" wasn't exactly "Poultergeist IV" material.

hideyoursheep

03-14-2009, 11:38 PM

Rob would probably try and have sex with it, then release the video!:anal:

hideyoursheep

03-15-2009, 12:19 AM

Like Scooby Doo and Shaggy? :lmao:
ZOINKS!

At least you don't believe in ghosts, so you have that going for you.I personally don't have any hard evidence that they do exist, nor have I had any experiences myself...

Whether or not there is an afterlife of some sort will have to enter into the discussion here. That is something that I can believe in after witnessing a certain occurrence.

But I've yet to experience anyone coming back to visit.;)

I hope that makes sense.

Redballjets88

03-15-2009, 12:20 AM

I don't know if I believe, but I would like to have something paranormal happen to/around me. I think it could really change a persons outlook.

hideyoursheep

03-15-2009, 12:44 AM

I don't know if I believe, but I would like to have something paranormal happen to/around me. I think it could really change a persons outlook.

Well if it doesn't, you're probably already dead!

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 01:09 AM

YIKES! This is why I do not buy antique or pre-owned anything. I don't know who owned it before me, and maybe the previous owner wants it back...

Back in 1995, my husband and I went to an antique exposition in San-Fransisco. I absolutely LOVE antiques.

A lot of old Americana and some European objects were exposed. We came to a booth that was from pre-civil war. Some articles you could actually touch...
I grabed this collar made of thick brown leather with a little plaid bow and a carved gold medal on it. It really looked like a dog collar.
As I held it in my hands, I felt a strange vibe going through my spine. Some chills and sadness, weird and not really understandable.
Without thinking further, I quickly let the thing fall on the table. Then, the rep. told me it was a slave collar that had been kept in a wealthy family from the southern U.S.
I looked at my husband and told him': "Look at that... All the sweat and blood that must have poored on that object... I feel bad... Let's go..."

It was one experience I could have done without!

FORD

03-15-2009, 01:55 AM

Back in 1995, my husband and I went to an antique exposition in San-Fransisco. I absolutely LOVE antiques.

A lot of old Americana and some European objects were exposed. We came to a booth that was from pre-civil war. Some articles you could actually touch...
I grabed this collar made of thick brown leather with a little plaid bow and a carved gold medal on it. It really looked like a dog collar.
As I held it in my hands, I felt a strange vibe going through my spine. Some chills and sadness, weird and not really understandable.
Without thinking further, I quickly let the thing fall on the table. Then, the rep. told me it was a slave collar that had been kept in a wealthy family from the southern U.S.
I looked at my husband and told him': "Look at that... All the sweat and blood that must have poored on that object... I feel bad... Let's go..."

It was one experience I could have done without!

I'd hate to think that the poor ghost of some long dead slave was still bound to the same chains that kept him prisoner in life :(

I don't know how I'd react to seeing something like that. If I could afford to buy it, I probably would.... just to burn the damn thing. I'm not opposed to it being a museum piece somewhere, so it can be used in a historical context, but I'm not sure about selling something like that as an "antique".

Dr. Love

03-15-2009, 02:05 AM

I don't know if I believe, but I would like to have something paranormal happen to/around me. I think it could really change a persons outlook.

Gauging from many of my personal experiences, I think you really would not like to have something like that happen to you. Depending on the type and severity it can be terrifying in the extreme. I had a friend say the same thing, stay with us (many times) and eventually come to regret that statement. He never stayed with us again.

Dr. Love

03-15-2009, 02:10 AM

Here's one of the stories that really cracks me up about some of the things that went on was when I first came home from college and stayed in the guest room (Robert's Room). I'd been there about two weeks and was still being unnerved by the feeling of either the blanket being slowly pulled off the bed from the foot all night or the random feeling of someone sitting on the bed from time to time in different spots (sometimes next to me, sometimes at the foot of the bed) when I was just about to fall asleep one night and I opened my eyes a little bit and written on the cieling above me, barely visible was the word "Hello".

I about jumped out of my skin. Turns out one of the previous owner's kids (I'm assuming) thought it would be funny to right that in glow in the dark paint on the cieling. Funny the next day ... but I just about had a heart attack when I saw it the first time. :D

rustoffa

03-15-2009, 02:16 AM

Growing up in south crackalackey, I was afforded no shortage of paranormalities. Tales of Spanish bloodletting paled in comparison to matchdogs wimpering about some extremely low tide....like right after a gaggle of wild pigs ran like schoolgirls in a thunderstorm! Think 1/2 of a lunar magnetism in 10 minutes. I was all like, "check out the sand bar"....next thing I hear is "I'm running into the fucking woods!" I musta layed there in the palmettos for like 4 hours with wimpering bulldogs 'til the sun came up. Motherfuckers @ the boat ramp were amazed @ our paranoia when we walked up asking why they had our dogs.....they were all like "WE FOUND THEM HIDING IN THE BOSTON WHALER!!....WHERE HAVE Y'ALL BEEN??!!"

Barrier island time stoppage......invigorating like no tomorrow!!!

hideyoursheep

03-15-2009, 02:25 AM

hideyoursheep

03-15-2009, 02:58 AM

Panamark

03-15-2009, 06:11 AM

Just hook up with Jesus Folks !
He has a good mate called Moses who
has a tablet for everything ....

Just remember

Jesus Saves
Moses Invests

Moses must be exploring his short selling options
at the moment...

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 11:18 AM

I'd hate to think that the poor ghost of some long dead slave was still bound to the same chains that kept him prisoner in life :(

I don't know how I'd react to seeing something like that. If I could afford to buy it, I probably would.... just to burn the damn thing. I'm not opposed to it being a museum piece somewhere, so it can be used in a historical context, but I'm not sure about selling something like that as an "antique".

Without knowing at first what it was... I felt those bad vibes, I tell you!

After the person explained, I felt even worst. Then, he went on showing us more articles and furniture that had belonged to the estate. We saw whips and clothes exposed together with guns, horse cariages etc...

Of course, he was not the owner but he seamed proud of it all.

I told my husband; "That slavery stuff shouldn't have been kept... It is sacrilege and no family should take pride in owning it..."
But he (who's father is black) replied; "Why hide it? It's part of the U.S' history... A part to be ashamed of..."

He 's right.

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 11:22 AM

And all the history of witch hunting...
I wouldn't want to live in those ereas!

twonabomber

03-15-2009, 01:51 PM

back in '89 i moved into a house with my friend, it was her grandparent's house and they had both died there. one in the bedroom i ended up with, and the other in the living room. it's an old house and it would creak, settle, whatever, and if the right windows were open the doors would swing...normal old house stuff.

this guy my friend was dating was there during the day while we were at work. he called her at work and claimed that he was hearing things and that when he went out to the car to get something the stereo cranked up on its own...i told him that if the grandmother was really still in the house she'd probably be trying to pull him off of my friend while they were goin' at it. :D

i did have one friend that refused to sit on the piece of furniture that my friend's grandmother died on.

FORD

03-15-2009, 02:48 PM

this guy my friend was dating was there during the day while we were at work. he called her at work and claimed that he was hearing things and that when he went out to the car to get something the stereo cranked up on its own...i told him that if the grandmother was really still in the house she'd probably be trying to pull him off of my friend while they were goin' at it. :D

Not only that, but if ghost granny had been the one fucking with his car stereo, wouldn't it have been playing Lawrence Welk or something?

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye3ecDYxOkg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ye3ecDYxOkg&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Nickdfresh

03-15-2009, 05:24 PM

I don't think I either believe or disbelieve in ghosts necessarily, although I had some weird shit happen to me when I was a little kid and I try to keep an open mind. But even if there were "ghosts" per say, that doesn't necessarily mean they are disembodied spirits with a consciousness. It could also be some sort of paranormal, holographic recording from the past that some how "plays" during certain conditions, or that's what I've read as one of the theories...

Anyone watch "Ghost Hunters" in Sci Fi? Seriously some weird shit on there.

knuckleboner

03-15-2009, 05:39 PM

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 07:39 PM

... Anyone watch "Ghost Hunters" in Sci Fi? Seriously some weird shit on there.

I never beleive in anything of the sort that was recorded, especially for TV.
I only take serously what I hear from people I fully trust (and NOT the friend of a brother's daughter, etc...).

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 07:42 PM

Oh no! That's terrible keeping a slave collar for so many years and now putting it up for sale? Who the heck did they think they would sell it to? ...

Most articles where exposed to be auctioned during the week...
"Ho, a slave collar... Let's bid on that... Yes! I got it! Now where am I gonna put it... On the mantle would be nice...!"

Sick!!! :barf:

Dr. Love

03-15-2009, 07:44 PM

Now he just needs an antique slave.

Nickdfresh

03-15-2009, 08:04 PM

I never beleive in anything of the sort that was recorded, especially for TV.
I only take serously what I hear from people I fully trust (and NOT the friend of a brother's daughter, etc...).

They actually debunk a lot of stuff...

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 08:04 PM

... Maybe you have a psychic talent. I think it's called psychometry where one has the ability to sense violence attached to an item.

Ho, don't I wish!
I would totally use that to help finding people that got kidnapped...

Apparently, there are some mediums that are good at that?

I was 22 when my Dad. passed away. He was murdered as taking a walk in the park, for the content of his wallet.
Long story short, the detective in charge asked me to help. Devastated and mad, I told him to "Fuck Off" and to do his job. Then, he told me that by looking at my gestures and the movement of my eyes, he could tell I had some ability to "detect" and that my hanger should be my fuel...

I accepted, only if he promised (in writing) that I would never get to see the murderer(s) once they cought him, unless I wanted to read all about it in the papers...

I cooperated and they found the bastard shortly. As I was doing that, I was talking to my Dad. constantly. "Help me, help us... And when it will be done, justice will be served... Go on protecting Mom. and sister and help me find the man of my life. A good man. Then, show me the way to my happiness, PLEASE..."

6 months later I met my husband and we took off to California for 8 years. Those where some good times and I could (somehow) relax and change my mind.

A couple years ago, I saw a medium. Not a fortune teller that will predict your future but one that communicates with the dead. Without knowing me at all, she told me that my father was gone and how... Among many things that happened in her appartment that evering, I felt his hand on my back and I smelled his after shave lotion... I cried like I never did. She told me then, to never come back for her to try and communicate with him again... To just, let him go. And I did.

Besides talking to him every days and laying besides his tombstone sometimes, I don't want him to "come back" anymore. He must do that "trajectory" that we will all do some day, and I shall let him go...

I think that this is what everyone sould do... Let go of the deads!

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 08:05 PM

They actually debunk a lot of stuff...

Yes but how can you make 100% sure this is not all of a Hollywood set up?

Nickdfresh

03-15-2009, 08:09 PM

Watch the show and decide for yourself...

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 08:12 PM

Now he just needs an antique slave.

I can't imagine going to someone's house and having them explained that they bought that and the reason why...
I would want to know, what could motivate someone to do that (unless they really get off on racism thoughts...)?

blonddgirl777

03-15-2009, 08:13 PM

Watch the show and decide for yourself...

O.K., I will... Now, too many people talk about it.
I will try.

Nitro Express

03-15-2009, 09:35 PM

Oh no! That's terrible keeping a slave collar for so many years and now putting it up for sale? Who the heck did they think they would sell it to?

Maybe you have a psychic talent. I think it's called psychometry where one has the ability to sense violence attached to an item.

Actually it's good people keep stuff like that. We need to keep some of a warts from history to remind us not to do it again. I'm glad they didn't bulldoze Auzschwitz. It's a good reminder of how horrible things can get if you let assholes run your govt.

Nitro Express

03-15-2009, 09:44 PM

I had an out of body experience when my health went due to serious resperatory problems. I had the feeling I shouldn't fall asleep because I wouldn't be waking up again. Next thing I know I'm feeling healthy, like Superman and I'm starring down at my body on the couch. There was no pull of gravity and I felt smarter than I ever have been like I knew everything in an abstract way. I have astral projected but this was way different. I think I died and came back.

Nitro Express

03-15-2009, 10:05 PM

I have been into martial arts for years especially the spiritual end of it. Some call it Life Force Energy and the Chinese call it Chi. The American Hopi Indians have a different name for it. It's simply energy that can be used. You can actually use this energy to throw harder punches or ward off evil. You can actually build it up like a capacity and discharge it at will. Sometimes when I sense evil, I charge up the energy and give the evil a blast of it. It seems to work. Anyone can learn to do it and the energy is all over for the taking.

Seshmeister

03-15-2009, 10:10 PM

Dr. Love

03-15-2009, 10:16 PM

I have a word for it too....

:lol:

Seshmeister

03-15-2009, 10:48 PM

That's what acupuncture is all about - chi or qi. Hit the right point where the blockage of qi is and the body feels better afterwards because the qi can flow freely.

With all due respect that's fucking garbage.

Acupuncture does work to a small degree as a placebo or by releasing some endorphins. If you stick pins in people and they think it will help it does a little.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/science-proves-acupuncture-is-sound-medicine-1644893.html

The key point though is that it doesn't matter a flying fuck where you stick the pins because it's a placebo and all that 'energy' shit is nonsense. I the same way Feng Shui people are full of it.

Which is why of course if you actually have something seriously wrong you would go to a proper Western health facility and would not fuck around with idiotic Chinese superstitions which only do two things - provide placebos and cause the completely unnecessary killing of rare and exotic wildlife.

There is a technical scientific term for alternative medicine which works - we call it medicine.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Seshmeister

03-15-2009, 10:57 PM

Yeah, like the Japanese deny the atrocities that they committed against the Chinese during the Japanese occupation of China. They want to not include that part of history in the curriculum and in textbooks. Deny all they want, but there are still living witnesses.

They killed maybe 4 times as many people as the Nazis killed Jews. Figures vary but between 20 and 35 million.

Completely unimaginable - 8000 9-11's?

It's almost never mentioned in the West at all...

Panamark

03-15-2009, 11:30 PM

I wonder if Cato knows about this ??

GAR

03-16-2009, 12:44 AM

Oh no! That's terrible keeping a slave collar for so many years and now putting it up for sale? Who the heck did they think they would sell it to?

I um, might have a few thrills with it one of these rainy evenings.. how much was it?

Did it come with a full set of furred wrist and ankle restraints?

GAR

03-16-2009, 12:46 AM

FORD

03-16-2009, 01:09 AM

I um, might have a few thrills with it one of these rainy evenings.. how much was it?

Did it come with a full set of furred wrist and ankle restraints?

Again, nobody wants to hear about what you and Jizzy do in the privacy of your mom's basement. :barf:

FORD

03-16-2009, 01:16 AM

Actually it's good people keep stuff like that. We need to keep some of a warts from history to remind us not to do it again. I'm glad they didn't bulldoze Auzschwitz. It's a good reminder of how horrible things can get if you let assholes run your govt.

I agree with keeping such relics for historical purposes. I just don't think you should be able to buy slave collars at antique sales. Or a piece of an oven from Auschwitz, for that matter.

(and no, I'm not talking about the kind of collars they sell at the "marital aids" store)

FORD

03-16-2009, 01:28 AM

With all due respect that's fucking garbage.

Acupuncture does work to a small degree as a placebo or by releasing some endorphins. If you stick pins in people and they think it will help it does a little.

Science proves acupuncture is sound medicine - Health News, Health & Wellbeing - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/science-proves-acupuncture-is-sound-medicine-1644893.html)

The key point though is that it doesn't matter a flying fuck where you stick the pins because it's a placebo and all that 'energy' shit is nonsense. I the same way Feng Shui people are full of it.

Which is why of course if you actually have something seriously wrong you would go to a proper Western health facility and would not fuck around with idiotic Chinese superstitions which only do two things - provide placebos and cause the completely unnecessary killing of rare and exotic wildlife.

There is a technical scientific term for alternative medicine which works - we call it medicine.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Sesh, I know you want to have the atheistic "hard science" explanation for everything, but denying the presence of energy doesn't make sense at all. Granted there maybe medical explanations beyond "chi" and "qi" for why some body can't seem to properly energize, but on the other hand, there may be things going on that medicine hasn't yet figured out a full explanation for.

As far as Chinese medicine goes, I'm not sure about the "powdered rhino horn" sort of things, but they have been using herbal remedies longer than anyone, and in many cases, they work better than so called "modern" medicine.

My dad's primary care physician is a Chinese immigrant. He was a licensed MD back in China, but had to start completely over when he moved to this country, because Western medicine has become so focused on the profit motives and treating the symptoms rather than prevention or cure. Naturally, he can't practice a lot of what he knows legally in this country, but he's made a few "off the record" recommendations over the years. Accupuncture being one of them.

hideyoursheep

03-16-2009, 03:29 AM

I have been into martial arts for years especially the spiritual end of it.

Really?:cato2:
What are you into, Nitro?
Shoot me a pm it you want..

Seshmeister

03-16-2009, 05:47 AM

Sesh, I know you want to have the atheistic "hard science" explanation for everything, but denying the presence of energy doesn't make sense at all. Granted there maybe medical explanations beyond "chi" and "qi" for why some body can't seem to properly energize, but on the other hand, there may be things going on that medicine hasn't yet figured out a full explanation for.

As far as Chinese medicine goes, I'm not sure about the "powdered rhino horn" sort of things, but they have been using herbal remedies longer than anyone, and in many cases, they work better than so called "modern" medicine.

My dad's primary care physician is a Chinese immigrant. He was a licensed MD back in China, but had to start completely over when he moved to this country, because Western medicine has become so focused on the profit motives and treating the symptoms rather than prevention or cure. Naturally, he can't practice a lot of what he knows legally in this country, but he's made a few "off the record" recommendations over the years. Accupuncture being one of them.

Bollocks.

The golden rule is replace the word 'energy' with bullshit.

People in fucking huts with a life expectancy of 25 used traditional herbal remedies, that's why they had a life expectancy of 25.

Aspirin is a herbal remedy but one that has been proved to work. That is the only difference between aspirin and a alternative herbal remedy. If the alternative herbal remedy worked it would be called a medicine.

The reason Chinese medicine is shit is the same reason that their huge civilization couldn't even come up with a knife and fork. Rice is a fucker to grow. It takes hour and hour after hour of time in the paddy field which leaves you a lot less time to invent shit so you come up with idiotic shortcuts like eating a tigers dick makes you horny or whatever.

What your Chinese doctor 'knows' is at best fucking nonsense which is why it is illegal to practice not because 100s of thousands of clinicians are part of some secret conspiracy to make you buy expensive drugs.

The funny thing is that deep down you all know this hocus pocus energy bullshit is bogus which is why if your dad is in a car accident today he will not be phoning Dr No asking him for a prescription for a cheetahs scrotum, he'll be going as fast as he can to the ER.

Seshmeister

03-16-2009, 05:52 AM

I wonder if Cato knows about this ??

Knows about it?

He did most of it... :)

binnie

03-16-2009, 01:50 PM

Bollocks.

The golden rule is replace the word 'energy' with bullshit.

People in fucking huts with a life expectancy of 25 used traditional herbal remedies, that's why they had a life expectancy of 25.

Aspirin is a herbal remedy but one that has been proved to work. That is the only difference between aspirin and a alternative herbal remedy. If the alternative herbal remedy worked it would be called a medicine.

The reason Chinese medicine is shit is the same reason that their huge civilization couldn't even come up with a knife and fork. Rice is a fucker to grow. It takes hour and hour after hour of time in the paddy field which leaves you a lot less time to invent shit so you come up with idiotic shortcuts like eating a tigers dick makes you horny or whatever.

What your Chinese doctor 'knows' is at best fucking nonsense which is why it is illegal to practice not because 100s of thousands of clinicians are part of some secret conspiracy to make you buy expensive drugs.

The funny thing is that deep down you all know this hocus pocus energy bullshit is bogus which is why if your dad is in a car accident today he will not be phoning Dr No asking him for a prescription for a cheetahs scrotum, he'll be going as fast as he can to the ER.

Woah there Sesh, you're usually much, much calmer than this. You're letting your passions get the better of you. Painting Chinese culture as backward because they don't use knives and forks is a little reductive and smacks of Western superiority - it's just their way of eating. The Chinese had the printing press long before Europeans, had a major Empire long before anybody in Europe (following the fall of Rome), and will inevitably be the next 'global' world power regardless of their 'superstitions' (hate that term, it implies that Western culture doesn't have any myths or fantasies - even atheists subscribe to some.)

On the point about 'alternative medicines' being largely nonesense, I am in agreement with you. However, if the 'placebo' works for some people, then what harm are they doing? If it makes you feel better than for no other reason than you believe it will, then so be it.

blonddgirl777

03-16-2009, 03:05 PM

... there may be things going on that medicine hasn't yet figured out a full explanation for...

There IS...
My oncologist, 2 radio-therapists, along with my gynecologist and family doctor agree 100% with that.
They told me so.

I had a crew of specialists "working" on me last summer and they all told me that there where some things that their science, that science they beleive in so much to have spent years of their lives studying, traveling the world to learn more about and still consulting worldwide, to come up with the best treatments for their patients...
Those specialists told me flat out to accept the fact that this science had some limits (still to this day) and that I had to accept it!

I tell you Seish., when there you find yourself pushed at the wall and feel like there are no issues... You start beleiving in "something" else!

blonddgirl777

03-16-2009, 03:14 PM

... he's made a few "off the record" recommendations over the years. Accupuncture being one of them.

Our provincial health care won't pay for alternative medecine and it's a pitty. Except for *some cases. Although, I understand it would cost a fortune...
But when getting a benifit package from an employer, you get accupuncture as well as physical therapy, massage therapy, psycholigist and a bunch of others...

*Many hospitals provide (free of charge) accupuncture for women in labor, patients that suffer great pain and other cases as well. Some people even use that practice instead of anaesthesia for operations, teeth pulling etc...

Accupuncture is THE oldest medecine in the world!
So, there is one Chinese medecine that has proven itself, if not, no insurance cies. (even less our gvrnmt) would want to pay for it.

blonddgirl777

03-16-2009, 03:33 PM

Watch the show and decide for yourself...

Last night, I watched 2 episodes...
The one with the old abandonned sanetarium in Kentuckey and another one in a woman's house (some guy had commited suicide in her bedroom)...

"Can you hear this... Did you see that?..." On their recording devices...

I am so not convinced! :umm:
Sorry... I kept laughing, the whole time... :hee:

Dr. Love

03-16-2009, 09:23 PM

Yeah, Sesh! Don't be judging people for eating with sticks! Do you consider cavemen to be backward and uncultured too!?

Nickdfresh

03-16-2009, 10:01 PM

Nickdfresh

03-16-2009, 10:05 PM

They killed maybe 4 times as many people as the Nazis killed Jews. Figures vary but between 20 and 35 million.

Completely unimaginable - 8000 9-11's?

It's almost never mentioned in the West at all...

You can find old Japanese newspaper articles on two Japanese lieutenants that had a contest to see who could decapitate the most Chinese civilians with their samurai swords. I think one had to forfeit after over 100 because he got something akin to "tennis-elbow."

I believe the Chinese suffered the highest death rate proportional to population in WWII...

Seshmeister

03-16-2009, 10:25 PM

Sesh, stop sugar-coating it!!

If you can't say it like it is on the internet where can you?:)

Actually the one that bugs me the most is homeopathy and it hasn't even been mentioned. :)

Dr. Love

03-16-2009, 11:56 PM

If you can't say it like it is on the internet where can you?:)

Actually the one that bugs me the most is homeopathy and it hasn't even been mentioned. :)

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_1266_11ab.jpg

Nickdfresh

03-17-2009, 12:57 AM

If you can't say it like it is on the internet where can you?:)

Actually the one that bugs me the most is homeopathy and it hasn't even been mentioned. :)

I found that putting leeches on your balls is great for headaches. Mainly because you don't give a fuck about a headache with giant fucking leeches on your balls...

Panamark

03-17-2009, 01:59 AM

I found that putting leeches on your balls is great for headaches. Mainly because you don't give a fuck about a headache with giant fucking leeches on your balls...

Wow !
You must get bad headaches...
Do you leave them in place during sex ?

Or is it like, not tonight dear, I have my leeches !

blonddgirl777

03-17-2009, 09:50 AM

I found that putting leeches on your balls is great for headaches...

What in hell gave you the idea to do that in the first place?
Leeches... :hee:

Guitar Shark

03-17-2009, 11:38 AM

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_1266_11ab.jpg

LMFAO. I fucking love this.

Nickdfresh

03-17-2009, 01:07 PM

What in hell gave you the idea to do that in the first place?
Leeches... :hee:

Leeches just love my balls:

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FORD

03-17-2009, 01:13 PM

Try acupuncture, Nick. Sticking needles in your balls will make you forget all about those leeches. :D

blonddgirl777

03-17-2009, 07:18 PM

... Sticking needles in your balls...

Everytime I lay on the accupuncture table, before the practician enters the room, I look at those charts... The ones that show where all the pressure points are.

Needles can be poked on testicles, scrutum, penis and mostly everywhere.

Seshmeister

03-17-2009, 08:04 PM

NCAHF Position Paper on Acupuncture (http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html)

NCAHF Position Paper on Acupuncture (1990)

Summary

Acupuncture involves the stimulation of certain points on or near the skin by the insertion of needles or by other methods. It has been used as a treatment in Asia for several thousand years but has not been proven effective by modern standards.

Acupuncture is being promoted as both an "alternative" treatment and an adjunct to standard treatment. In China, it was banned in 1929 but underwent resurgence in the 1960s during the Cultural Revolution. In the United States, it is used mainly for pain relief. Some states permit only licensed physicians to perform acupuncture, while others license lay persons as well. While acupuncture organizations are trying to standardize training, researchers are still attempting to determine whether acupuncture is effective.

NCAHF believes:

1. Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment;
2. Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge;
3. Research during the past twenty years has failed to demonstrate that acupuncture is effective against any disease;
4. Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter- irritation, operant conditioning, and other psychological mechanisms;
5. The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings;
6. Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture treatment; and
7. Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.

Theory and Practices

Acupuncture is based on ancient Chinese medical philosophy, which views illness quite differently than does contemporary science [1]. In ancient China, diseases were not systematically described or classified [2]. Internal organs, which were felt to be intermediaries between the body and nature, were assigned qualities representing emotional states, colors, and seasons. Some organs, such as the "triple warmer," were imaginary. There were no concepts of modern physiology, biochemistry, nutrition or mechanisms of healing. There was no knowledge of the existence of cells, the circulation of the blood, the function of nerves, or the existence of hormones. Dissection of the human body was not done, so that even knowledge of anatomy was incomplete.

Diagnosis

Traditional Chinese diagnosis does not correlate with modern scientific concepts. An ill person was considered out of balance with nature and its two opposing forces, yin and yang. Yin represented the feminine, passive, or accepting qualities, and yang the masculine, aggressive, or forceful ones. Diseases were not described or named. Diagnoses were made by examining the pulse (of which there were supposedly six variations) and the tongue, which was said to vary in appearance with certain disease states. Today we know that there is only one pulse, which corresponds to the pumping action of the heart, and that the appearance of the tongue is seldom a clue to the diagnosis of disease in other parts of the body.

Traditional Chinese treatments were directed at reestablishing "balance" and "harmony," which supposedly occur as symptoms improve. Since there was no formal study of diseases or description of their natural history, the ancient Chinese could rarely determine how an illness actually improved. Treatments were chosen by trial and error, and perpetuated by personal experience. Since there were no scientific criteria for success or failure, the judgment that "healing" had taken place was based on the word of the therapist or the patient. The natural course of the disease usually took place unaltered by treatment.

Acupuncture points were assigned to "meridians" on the surface of the body. These supposedly represent channels through which flows the life force, "Ch'i" or "Qi.." Fourteen channels were said to permit maximal influence on the flow of Ch'i inside the body. Insertion of needles at the designated points was said to increase or decrease the flow of Ch'i to achieve a more normal and harmonious state. Originally there were 365 acupuncture points, corresponding to the days of the year, but the number identified by proponents during the past 2,000 years increased gradually to over 2,000. [3]

The life force, Ch'i, has no basis in human physiology. The meridians are imaginary; their locations do not relate to internal organs, and therefore do not relate to human anatomy. Acupuncture points are also imaginary. (Various acupuncture charts give different locations for the points.) These fanciful concepts continue to form the basis of modern acupuncture therapy even though extremely sophisticated methods are used to measure its reputed biochemical effects. Although scientific methods may be applied to biochemical studies, many published reports are based solely and uncritically on clinical anecdotes and tradition [4].

Acupuncture is not difficult to perform. It involves a variety of procedures performed at "acupuncture points" on the skin. The modalities include:

* Insertion of needles. Fine stainless steel needles are inserted to varying depths with an in-and-out twirling motion until there is a local feeling of numbness (a temporary reaction to injury). They are left in place for about twenty minutes, then removed.
* Burning of vegetable fibers (moxibustion). [5]
* Suction by cups containing heated air (cupping)
* Injected solutions
* Low-voltage current applied to needles (electroacupuncture), a relatively recent development

Other variations and offshoots include:

* Trigger point therapy. Some proponents claim that acupuncture points coincide with "trigger points' - areas at which the injections of a local anesthetic can relieve regional pain. However, trigger points are not anatomically demonstrable and vary from individual to individual. Any effects from acupuncture are likely to be due to nonspecific mechanisms rather than location of the "points".
* Auriculotherapy. This is based on the notion that the body and organs are represented on the ear [6].
* Needles are placed in the imaginary points representing the diseased organs. There is no scientific evidence that these points exist or that auriculotherapy has any therapeutic value [7].
* Staplepuncture. Staples are placed at acupuncture points on the ear, typically to aid smoking cessation or drug withdrawal.
* Acupressure, firm digital pressure on trigger points or acupuncture points.
* "Touch for Health," developed by a chiropractor using acupressure points and an unreliable muscle-testing method ("applied kinesiology"). The therapist claims to diagnose nutritional and glandular "deficiencies" that are then "corrected" by manipulation or nutrition supplements.

Proposed Mechanisms of Action

The following mechanisms have been proposed to explain acupuncture's presumed action on pain:

* Release of endorphins (narcotic-like substances produced by the body). Naloxone, which reverses the effects of administered opiates, has been reported to reduce the analgesia produced by acupuncture. However, some studies show no reversal. Even if endorphin release were a real mechanism for acupuncture action, there are simpler and non invasive ways to cause endorphin release.
* The "gate theory." This suggests that if pain fibers carry impulses from an acupuncture site, impulses from a painful body organ will be unable to reach the brain. However, there is no anatomical or physiological basis for this explanation.
* Diversion. Attention can be diverted from a symptom by stimulating or irritating another part of the body.
* Psychological mechanisms. These include suggestion, operant conditioning and other psychological mechanisms, any of which may be involved in the placebo effect.

Current Use in China

Acupuncture anesthesia has been observed by Western anesthesiologists and other medical scientists. American interest was triggered in 1972 by a rumor that New York Times reporter James Reston had received acupuncture anesthesia for an appendectomy while visiting China. Actually, he had had standard anesthesia and received acupuncture for postoperative cramps.

Despite popular claims, acupuncture anesthesia is not used for emergency surgery. It is not used routinely, but only on the 10% to 15% of people who are suggestible and perhaps easily hypnotizable. It is seldom used for abdominal or chest surgery, in which muscle relaxation is necessary (general anesthesia as done in the West is used.) Moreover, when acupuncture is used for surgery, the patient is usually medicated with narcotics and other standard drugs [8-10].

For other medical conditions, acupuncture and herbalism are regarded as elective procedures. Of the forty-six major medical journals published by the Chinese Medical Association, none is devoted to acupuncture, herbalism, and their variants. The great majority of papers are about scientific, rather than traditional Chinese methods. Few articles concern the integration of acupuncture with modern treatments. Reports of acupuncture successes are often not accompanied by reliable measurements.
Scientific Status

The World Health Organization has listed forty conditions for which claims of effectiveness have been made. They include acute and chronic pain, rheumatoid and osteoarthritis, muscle and nerve "difficulties," depression, smoking, eating disorders, drug "behavior problems," migraine, acne, ulcers, cancer, and constipation. Some chiropractors and psychologists have made unsubstantiated claims to improve dyslexia and learning disorders by acupressure. However, scientific evidence supporting these claims is either inadequate or nonexistent.
Experimental Difficulties

The following should be considered when evaluating an acupuncture research paper:

* Symptom relief is difficult to assess because there is no objective standard of measurement.
* Double-blind studies comparing the insertion of needles at acupuncture points and at other points ("sham acupuncture") are difficult to design. If an experienced acupuncturist locates the points, the practitioner's expectations may be transmitted to the patient. If an inexperienced person inserts the points, misplaced needles may undermine the results. Moreover, practitioners may differ about the location of the points, and so many points have been postulated that it may be difficult to find a patch of skin that has not been labeled an "acupuncture point."
* Chronic pain is often cyclic, with periods of relief. Since people often request help when their pain is most severe, spontaneous improvement may occur independent of the treatment [11].
* Most acute (recent onset) pain improves with time and no intervention. Thus, people may report improvement of symptoms from any intervention, even if the method has no effect.
* There is general agreement that 30% to 35% of subjects' pain improves from suggestion or placebo effect alone. Thus, measuring a small difference between placebo and acupuncture requires a large number of subjects (several hundred in each group) to show as little difference as 25%.
* People who volunteer for acupuncture may have a conscious or unconscious bias toward the procedure and thus may be more prone to suggestion.
* Proponents of a method tend to report trials showing positive effects, and not to report trials showing no effect or negative effects.

Despite these difficulties, well controlled trials can be carried out by using: 1) unbiased subjects, 2) random assignment of subjects into treatment and control groups, 3) blinding of both therapists and subjects, 4) blinded evaluations by separate observers, 5) a reliable diary or reporting system if symptom relief is the end point, 6) adequate period of follow-up past the time of treatment, 7) enough subjects to test the significance of any difference found. Few studies have satisfied these requirements.
Scientific Reviews

Richardson and Vincent analyzed 28 studies of effect of acupuncture on pain, all published between 1973 and 1986 in English language peer-reviewed journals. Fifteen showed no difference in effectiveness between acupuncture and control groups. Thirteen showed some effectiveness for acupuncture over control groups, but not all controls were the same. (Some were compared to sham acupuncture, some to medical therapy, etc.) Overall, the differences were small [12-13].

The NCAHF Task Force on Acupuncture evaluated the above studies, as well as more recent ones, and found that reported benefits varied inversely with quality of the experimental design. The greater the benefit claimed, the worse the experimental design. Most studies that showed positive effects used too few subjects to be statistically significant. The best designed experiments - those with the highest number of controls on variables - found no difference between acupuncture and control groups.

In 1989, three Dutch epidemiologists reported similar conclusions about 91 separate clinical trials of acupuncture for various disorders. They also found that the stricter the controls, the smaller the difference between acupuncture and control groups [14].

Acupuncture is being used in drug and alcohol rehabilitation programs. Because there are serious flaws in the way studies on rehabilitation have been performed, the results cannot be considered valid.

A successful medical procedure should be consistently effective in a large majority of trials, and be repeatable in the hands of most therapists. Acupuncture does not satisfy these basic criteria.

The American Medical Association's Council on Scientific Affairs stated in a 1981 report that since acupuncture is an experimental procedure, it should be performed only in research settings by licensed physicians or others under their direct supervision. The report urged state medical societies to seek appropriate laws to restrict the performance of acupuncture to research settings [15].
Acupuncture Training

Acupuncture is not part of the curriculum at most American medical schools. Nevertheless, proponents say that several thousand physicians in the U.S. and Canada use it in their practices. The American Academy of Medical Acupuncture of Berkeley, California, sponsors courses for physicians given under the auspices of medical schools, including UCLA, Jefferson Medical College, and Temple University. The University of Hawaii also sponsors a course. Tuition is as much as $3,600 for a one-week course.

Lay persons who perform acupuncture may use the following degrees and/or titles:

* Certified Acupuncturist (C.A.): This title can be granted to lay persons by a state licensing board after qualifying examination.
* Master Acupuncturist (M.A.): A title granted to some licensed acupuncturists in certain states.
* Diplomate of Acupuncture (Dpl.Ac.): Certified by an organization called the National Commission for the Certification of Acupuncturists (NCCA).
* Oriental Medical Doctor (O.M.D. or M.O.D): This is not a recognized degree.
* Doctor of Philosophy (Ph.D): No American school granting this degree for acupuncture is accredited. One such school is the Center for Chinese Medicine, Monterey Park, California. Its 250-hour course lasts about 30 days and costs $3,500.

Hazards

The frequency of complications of acupuncture needling is not known, since no survey has been done. Nevertheless, serious complications occur even in experienced hands and are reported in medical journals. These include fainting, local hematoma (bleeding from punctured blood vessel), pneumothorax (punctured lung), convulsions, local infections, hepatitis B (from unsterile needles), bacterial endocarditis, contact dermatitis, and nerve damage. The herbs used by acupuncture practitioners are not regulated for safety, potency or effectiveness. There is also the risk that a lay acupuncturist will fail to diagnose a dangerous condition.
Legal Status

All states permit acupuncture to be performed - some by physicians only, some by lay acupuncturists under medical supervision, and some by unsupervised lay persons. Seventeen states permit lay acupuncturists to practice without medical supervision. In 1990 the National Accreditation Commission for Schools and Colleges of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine was recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education as an accrediting agency. [Note: Such recognition is not based upon the scientific validity of what is taught but upon other criteria.]

Many insurance companies cover acupuncture treatment if performed by a licensed physician, but Medicare and Medicaid generally do not. Acupuncture needles are considered investigational (unapproved) devices by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

In California, where acupuncture is being offered for hypertension, obesity, heart failure, arthritis, and smoking and drug withdrawal, the acupuncture law permits acupuncturists to advertise treatment for any ailment except cancer, as long as a cure is not promised. Cancer treatment is prohibited by the California Cancer Law.

Every ethnic group has its own set of medical customs not supported by science. Some proponents argue that Asian populations should have access to their traditional remedies, however ineffective and unscientific they may be. This question is difficult to resolve because it conflicts with the modern principle of consumer protection based on reliability and fulfillment of promised claims. Cultural activities are generally tolerated provided that they do not conflict with laws for the general population and are not dangerous. Chaos would result if the populace could not be protected from misrepresentation, and if insurance companies were forced to pay for all traditional foreign methods.
NCAHF Recommendations

The National Council Against Health Fraud believes that after more than twenty years in the court of scientific opinion, acupuncture has not been demonstrated effective for any condition. We therefore advise the following:
To Physicians:

Note that the scientific literature provides no evidence that acupuncture can perform consistently better than a placebo in relieving pain or other symptoms for which it has been proposed. Most reports claiming positive and statistically significant results for acupuncture are flawed by biased patient selection, poor controls, lack of blinding, or insufficient numbers. There is no physiologic rationale for why acupuncture should work other than for its placebo or counter-irritant and distracting effects. For these reasons, acupuncture should not be offered without full informed consent, reminding patients that acupuncture is experimental, has not been proven more effective than a placebo, and has some risk of complications.
To Consumers:

Beware of misleading and untrue statements made for acupuncture. Some states do not regulate such claims. Because laws are political tools, not scientific ones, the political process often responds to pressures independent of scientific evidence. Acupuncture cures nothing. It may relieve symptoms with the frequency of a placebo. It may be harmful. Consumers wishing to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest.
To Legislators:

Acupuncture licensing should be abolished. Public display of unaccredited degrees by individuals offering any form of health care should be banned. Insurance companies, HMOs and government insurance programs should not be forced to cover acupuncture unless scientific evidence demonstrates that it has value.
References

1. Motokawa T. Sushi science and hamburger medicine. Perspect Biol Med 1989;32:489-504.
2. Kaptchuk TJ. The web that has no weaver, understanding Chinese medicine. New York: Congden & Weed. 1983.
3. Skrabanek P. Acupuncture: past, present, and future. In Stalker D and Glymour C: Examining Holistic Medicine. Buffalo, NY, 1985, Prometheus Books.
4. Patel MS. Problems in the evaluation of alternative medicine. Soc Sci Med 1987;25:669-678.
5. Stemfeld M et al. Cell membrane activities and regeneration mechanisms as therapy mediators in moxibustion and acupuncture treatments: theoretical considerations. Med Hypotheses 1990;31:227-231.
6. Oleson TD, Kroening RI, Bresier DE. An experimental evaluation of auricular diagnosis: the somatic mapping of musculoskeletal pain at car acupuncture points. Pain 1980;8:217-229.
7. Melzack R, Katz K. Auriculotherapy fails to relieve chronic pain: a controlled crossover study. JAMA 1984; 251:1041-1043.
8. Bonica JI. Therapeutic acupuncture in the People's Republic of China: implications for American Medicine. JAMA 1974;228:1544-1551.
9. Kerr FML. Personal communication.
10. Taub A. Quackupuncture? In Barrett S (ed). The Health Robbers. Philadelphia, George F Stickley Co., 1980:257-266.
11. Malone RD, Strube MJ. Meta-analysis of nonmedical treatments for chronic pain. Pain 1988;34:231-244.
12. Richardson PH, Vincent CA. The evaluation of therapeutic acupuncture: concepts and methods. Pain 24:1-13, 1986.
13. Richardson PH, Vincent CA. Acupuncture for the treatment of pain. Pain 24:1540, 1986.
14. Ter Riet G et al. The effectiveness of acupuncture. Huisarts Wet 32:170-175, 176-181, 308-312, 1989.
15. AMA Council on Scientific Affairs. Reports of the Council on Scientific Affairs of the American Medical Association. 1981. Chicago, 1982, American Medical Association.

blonddgirl777

03-17-2009, 08:49 PM

Degrees and references...
The results are the only thing that counts for the ones who benefit from accupuncture!

You know Seish., people use and beleive in whatever works for THEMSELVES and that, you can't even debate on...
Whatever it is (superstition or "real" science), I say let people find their own "drug of choice"!

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:07 PM

I tried to buy some acupuncture needles in Hong Kong but they refused to sell them to me without the propper credentials. I would never use them but wanted some for my weird stuff collection.

Dr. Love

03-17-2009, 09:15 PM

LMFAO. I fucking love this.

Not to hijack my own thread but ... ah fuck it. Here's another pic.

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_4780_e65c.png

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:16 PM

Where are acupuncture needles sold in Hong Kong? I don't want to buy some. Just curious, is all.

In a department store on Nathan Road in Kowloon. They had a glass case full of them in the health section.

blonddgirl777

03-17-2009, 09:21 PM

I tried to buy some acupuncture needles in Hong Kong but they refused to sell them to me without the propper credentials. I would never use them but wanted some for my weird stuff collection.

You ARE weird! L.O.L.
Next time I lay there, prior to the accupucnture lady walking in, I will steel a couple for ya! ;)

Dr. Love

03-17-2009, 09:22 PM

ah why not, another

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_114_566a.png

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:22 PM

blonddgirl777

03-17-2009, 09:22 PM

Not to hijack my own thread but ... ah fuck it. Here's another pic.

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_4780_e65c.png

You are not hijackin' your own thread...
That's totally different stuff and it's all B.S. to me!

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:28 PM

Is it called Yue Hwa?

This was back in the mid 80's. Who knows if the store is still there. Every time I go to Hong Kong they have torn it all down and built something different.

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:31 PM

You ARE weird! L.O.L.
Next time I lay there, prior to the accupucnture lady walking in, I will steel a couple for ya! ;)

I'm the guy that is always holding up the line at customs. I didn't think they were going to let me out of Miami because they didn't like the authentic blow gun and darts I brought back from the Amazon. LOL! I came back from Mexico looking like I lived in the Jungle for months. Long hair, a beard, kacky clothes and a suspect looking bottle of mezcal. I thought I was going to get the bend over and spread em treatment.

Seshmeister

03-17-2009, 09:32 PM

The real question is what is science. Did you know pharmacutical companies send people to live with primitive cultures to see what they use for medicine and how it's used. Then they find out what chemicals in the natural medicine are working and synthesize it in a lab. All modern science comes from alchemy. It all starts with natural medicine.

I don't know why you would need to divide these things.

A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results.

In your example it's very simple. If the natural remedy can be demonstrated to work it will become part of our scientific knowledge. If it fails empirical repeatable tests and has to rely on people just making shit up or saying 'it works because it's been around for a long time', or 'gods made it' or whatever then it's not scientific and it's just pretend.

Despite hundreds of studies acupuncture cannot be shown to work as anything more than a placebo.

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:37 PM

I bought those dried sea horses at a Chinese pharmacy. I have no idea what they are used for but they where cool looking. LOL!

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 09:43 PM

I don't know why you would need to divide these things.

A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results.

In your example it's very simple. If the natural remedy can be demonstrated to work it will become part of our scientific knowledge. If it fails empirical repeatable tests and has to rely on people just making shit up or saying 'it works because it's been around for a long time', or 'gods made it' or whatever then it's not scientific and it's just pretend.

Despite hundreds of studies acupuncture cannot be shown to work as anything more than a placebo.

That is true but the scientific method is at the mercy of data sampling and how the data is interpreted. It increases accuracy but is not 100% fail proof. In some cases scientific fact does not tell the whole story but only confirms one element in the story.

Dr. Love

03-17-2009, 09:56 PM

http://bearsaresmart.com/b/or/bearsaresmart_com_4146_fa29.jpg

Nitro Express

03-17-2009, 10:03 PM

Scientific law is actually relative. It's like trying to define what a photon is. Sometimes it's a particle and other times it's a wave of energy. So you just can't have one law. The law is true under certain circumstances and false under others. It's one reason physicists are making huge breakthroughs in cancer research and other medical areas. They tend to be the most open scientists and approach things differently than the biological area of study. The biggest hinderance to science has always been the egos involved and the almost religious like stubborness of peer approval. Nobody wants to take a chance on looking bad. So the human element always clouds the wholistic picture and always will. If human beings are involved there is always going to be some error or hinderance.

blonddgirl777

03-18-2009, 09:40 AM

blonddgirl777

03-18-2009, 09:46 AM

... Once I got my passport stamped with the entry seal, I thought I was home free and on my way to the exit, but there is always that one customs officer near the exit randomly selecting a traveler to search. I saw him and I kept saying in my head, "Don't pick me, don't pick me." Of course, he waved me over to him and asked what I had in my bag. He said, "Teapot?" He waved me away in disappointment.

L.O.L.
At least, he took your word for it and didn't search your luggage!
THAT is a humiliating experience, to have them go through your personal stuff and leave it all there as a mess for you to put back in the suit case...
They never found anything on me!
Bastards! :fufu:

Nitro Express

03-18-2009, 02:35 PM

Everytime I lay on the accupuncture table, before the practician enters the room, I look at those charts... The ones that show where all the pressure points are.

Needles can be poked on testicles, scrutum, penis and mostly everywhere.

Next time I visit my domamatrix at the S&M club I will request this.

Nitro Express

03-18-2009, 02:38 PM

I had a friend who was a US Customs agent and he could tell some funny and horrid stories about going through people's luggage. He told me it always nice to go through underwear that doesn't reek of ass, tang, and is free of skid marks.

Nitro Express

03-18-2009, 02:39 PM

I think the only difference between a US Customs agent and a proctologist is the Dr. gets paid more.

Nitro Express

03-18-2009, 02:44 PM

Personally, I am not into any big Religious beleifs (certainly not Christianism). But I don't pretend that it gives me (or anyonelse) the right to be condescending any of them.

Arguing about Religion is pointless. Just like agruing about tastes in music!

I don't trust any organized religion. They have a poor historical track record of being nothing more that greedy and controlling. They are nothing more than mini governments. Hell, the Vatican is it's own country and the Mormons run the show in Utah. It's politics.

I look at it all wholistic. I'm not going to shit on Jesus because frankly, I like The Golden Rule. If we lived that we wouldn't have the problems we have as a society. Also. Show me where Jesus actually organized a church? That was all done later. Jesus just preached information and who know how much of it is made up or bastardized. The message and concept is still good even if it could be a made up story.

Jesus Christ

03-18-2009, 02:50 PM

Show me where Jesus actually organized a church?

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18

Now of course, My church was nothing like the organized religions of today, which preacheth the doctrines of men, rather than My teachings. :(