Any thoughts on the new 23 trillion cost of free healthcare?

[GAR]

Okayee..

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the new estimate for the Dem's package is still too LOW at just over $23 trillion.

The reason I say that is, it's supposed to apply to the supposed 42 million uninsured only.

But when you do the math,
$23,000,000,000 / 42million = only $5, 476.19 each person!


If you were to throw in a few hundred thou cancer cases, one mil or so aids cases, fifty thou kidney dialysis cases - then how is this gonna work out?

I forget the rough estimate for dollar expenditure from true healthcare pay basis, but it's something like 40 percent of it all is admin costs such as billing, coding for service, and collections. The doctor only really sees 60 cents or less of that dollar!

So how will this work then, subtracting admin costs, when they're also estimating another 60 million middle class jumping ship from private healthcare to a government entitled provision, for the simple fact if its free why pay for it?

SHIT was I even paying $5400 a year for myself, I think I was paying like $180 a month for Kaiser, and they fucking SUCKED.

I don't see it passing. I was watching Hannity on Fox this evening, and they had some clips of Democrats selling this bullshit at townhall meetings trying to explain their way thru it while getting laughed at and heckled by the citizens.

This sure as hell isn't representation: if it is, the Democratic Congress is only representing Bostonian Kennedian drug and insurance concerns for the biggest insurance sale in history.. and I would like to know who's getting the commision on this policy if it isn't the Kennedeys business affiliates.

Then Obama wants to have everyone vote on it without reading it - but they keep filling it with provision this and provision that!

Boehner did another thing on CSpan with the printout, he dropped it on the table in two volumes like a pair of Los Angeles telephone book listings.. thunk thunk..

Again, teh Democrats trying to rip the fucking people off, to Kennnedy's puppet cry of "this bill must be passed"

It ain't gonna pass..

[GAR]

oh I forgot to add, the obvious second equation in this is the 23 trillion divided by 100 million subscribers dillutes the wonder of free medical for everyone down to just 2300.00 for each person.

Our gross national product in a bad year is 9 trillion, the government averages about ten percent of that, so how do you give away 25 times more than what you take in taxes if that's only 900 billion in a bad year?

The math don't lie, and even a third grader can figure THAT out!

If it were possible, we'd have to have a 900 trillion dollar economy.. then of course we could afford free healthcare for everybody. But it's just not physically, fiducially possible!

Plus, if the cap n taxtrade taxes don't work out, you hook millions of people on free healthcare for one year, then you gotta kick em off the next?

Obama's a fucking bullshit artist.. and thats not the worst part: he tells Congress to work it out. In other words, the Messiah hath spoken "I'm so popular, this will pass because I so wish it therefore you guys work out the details amongst yourselves.."

Not only does it not work mathematically, it's not fair to the taxpayer who Obama wants to stick with the bill.

[FORD]

I'd rather spend "23 trillion" on keeping people alive than on murdering them in senseless wars. Funny how there's always enough money for that bullshit.

[letsrock]

Kaiser does suck. They are about as efficient as the VA.

[Seshmeister]

GAR your math is fucking woeful. :)

Don't give up the day job...

[Nickdfresh]

I'm pretty sure he's equally incompetent at his day job...

[letsrock]

Remember everyone believes they are entiltled.
It will be fun to see when a person goes to ER for an injury.

Something like this.

Nurse: What brings you in tonight?
Unemployed person: i got hurt at my job.
Nurse: Where do you work?
Unemployed Person: Any corner i can.
Nurse looks surprised, but knows she shes this all the time now.

Nurse: So what happened?
unemployed Person: I got stabbed over a dime bag.


thanks obama.

[Nickdfresh]

Remember everyone believes they are entiltled.
It will be fun to see when a person goes to ER for an injury.

Something like this.

Nurse: What brings you in tonight?
Unemployed person: i got hurt at my job.
Nurse: Where do you work?
Unemployed Person: Any corner i can.
Nurse looks surprised, but knows she shes this all the time now.

Nurse: So what happened?
unemployed Person: I got stabbed over a dime bag.


thanks obama.

Um, WTF are you talking about? Firstly, you're the one getting free healthcare based on having a temporary job you got paid for...

[Igosplut]

What the hell's GARgle whining about? Don't the indigent/homeless get free health care in California anyways???

[letsrock]

Um, WTF are you talking about? Firstly, you're the one getting free healthcare based on having a temporary job you got paid for...

No i dont get free healthcare based on a temp job.
Who gave you that idea?
But being a Veteran i took use my VA benefits for my diabetes care.
Back to taking pointless shots again arent you.

[letsrock]

Um, WTF are you talking about? Firstly, you're the one getting free healthcare based on having a temporary job you got paid for...

So your saying that the US Military and its veterans are all temp workers.
What the hell is wrong with you?

[Seshmeister]

Temporary is a term that denotes a finite period of time, with a defined beginning and an end. It is derived from the Latin temporarius "of seasonal character, lasting a short time," from tempus (gen. temporis) "time, season." It is the opposite of permanent.

How is it not temporary work?

A cynic might say that tying health care into military service helps politicians to recruit people from disadvantaged backgrounds into illegal or unnecessary wars.

[letsrock]

How is it not temporary work?

A cynic might say that tying health care into military service helps politicians to recruit people from disadvantaged backgrounds into illegal or unnecessary wars.

Well based on that then one could say that the military is used as a toll for future free healthcare.

[Seshmeister]

Yes or further education.

But it doesn't apply to richer families.

[letsrock]

Right, it leave a lot to be desired.

[GAR]

I'd rather spend "23 trillion" on keeping people alive than on murdering them in senseless wars.

Keeping fuckers alive another 20 years while they shit themselves away in retirement isn't fair to the younger generation who has to pay for it.

ESPECIALLY when the older generation agrees once confronted with the costs involved that it really isn't fair to the younger generation.

Now, talk about fair: if one war a decade in the Middle East prevents nine or ten, isn't that fair too?

Diplomacy only goes so far with them Mohammedfucks before you gotta show them the slaughter and our military does slaughter really, really well. I'm always proud of that!

If you're NOT get the fuck out..

[GAR]

Remember everyone believes they are entiltled.
It will be fun to see when a person goes to ER for an injury.

I'm entitled to keeping the Fed's sticky fingers out of my bank account.

We already figured that if I have to pay an additional 7 percent on the company copay for workers insurance, that I'm keeping my FUCKING insurance because I like it.

I'm just gonna pass the cost along to new hires, that's all - and since I let em all go in April EVERYONE's a new hire.

That means: if you want health benefits, you're paying The Black Messiah that extra 7 percent for not partaking of the govt. medical plan. And word on the street is Kaiser is being positioned to share its provider network by the Dems -or else- so no matter what, my Kaiser is gonna get fucked up by the Black Messiah's plan if it passes.

[GAR]

GAR your math is fucking woeful. :)

Don't give up the day job...

Total Bailout Cost = $23.7 Trillion Dollars | The Big Picture (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/total-bailout-cost-237-trillion-dollars/)

Total Bailout Cost = $23.7 Trillion Dollars (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/total-bailout-cost-237-trillion-dollars/)


This is a WTF number:

“U.S. taxpayers may be on the hook for as much as $23.7 trillion to bolster the economy and bail out financial companies, said Neil Barofsky, special inspector general for the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program.


The Treasury’s $700 billion bank-investment program represents a fraction of all federal support to resuscitate the U.S. financial system, including $6.8 trillion in aid offered by the Federal Reserve, Barofsky said in a report released today.


“TARP has evolved into a program of unprecedented scope, scale and complexity,” Barofsky said in testimony prepared for a hearing tomorrow before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.


Costs include $2.3 trillion in programs offered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., $7.4 trillion in TARP and other aid from the Treasury and $7.2 trillion in federal money for Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, credit unions, Veterans Affairs and other federal programs, he said.

[sadaist]

Some people have slammed Kaiser. I want to tell you that you are correct, Kaiser sucks...but only at entry level. Once you get past the front lines and actually see specialists, they are terrific. At least in San Diego. But getting past that front line of defense is nearly impossible.

When I say specialist departments, I mean Oncology and the likes.

[ELVIS]

I'd rather spend "23 trillion" on keeping people alive than on murdering them in senseless wars. Funny how there's always enough money for that bullshit.

You're delusional...

[Seshmeister]

Why does everyone in this thread keep saying 23 trillion?

What does money spent saving banks have to do with free health care?

[Nickdfresh]

So your saying that the US Military and its veterans are all temp workers.
What the hell is wrong with you?

It was for me!

And good for you for treating your diabetes and getting the care you need. But if you hadn't served, you might be fucked...

[Nickdfresh]

Why does everyone in this thread keep saying 23 trillion?

What does money spent saving banks have to do with free health care?

I don't know, but if I keep seeing bullshit statistics like this thrown out, then I am canning these shit threads...

[LoungeMachine]

Total Bailout Cost = $23.7 Trillion Dollars | The Big Picture (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/total-bailout-cost-237-trillion-dollars/)

Total Bailout Cost = $23.7 Trillion Dollars (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/07/total-bailout-cost-237-trillion-dollars/)


This is a WTF number:

“U.S. taxpayers may be on the hook for as much as $23.7 trillion to bolster the economy and bail out financial companies, said Neil Barofsky, special inspector general for the Treasury’s Troubled Asset Relief Program.


The Treasury’s $700 billion bank-investment program represents a fraction of all federal support to resuscitate the U.S. financial system, including $6.8 trillion in aid offered by the Federal Reserve, Barofsky said in a report released today.


“TARP has evolved into a program of unprecedented scope, scale and complexity,” Barofsky said in testimony prepared for a hearing tomorrow before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform.


Costs include $2.3 trillion in programs offered by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., $7.4 trillion in TARP and other aid from the Treasury and $7.2 trillion in federal money for Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, credit unions, Veterans Affairs and other federal programs, he said.



So, moron...... WTF does that have to do with "free healthcare", you fucking braindead oxygen thief.

:gulp:

I'm with Nick. This dumbass bullshit should go to the DUMP.

Go play make believe there, fuckbag.

[FORD]

You're delusional...

...says the NURSE without his own health care coverage.

[GAR]

You're delusional...

That's basically the classic argument for the Democratic Distraction.

I saw a clip on Hannitys show, with Pelosi saying in an interview "..one of the best things we do up here, is distraction of the Republicans from what we really intend."

When FORD pulls THAT ol' gag from 2003 of ".. but Bush, Bush and Bush" he does it mnemonically from watching too much television, not that he truly understands why or how he absorbed it along the way.

But I noticed it works for him in the DLR forums because just as in normal conversation, the minute someone answers to your distraction, you relieve control of the discussion to the distractor.

Pelosi loves this Clintonian technique because.. it works! However, it is childish and sooo 2003.. she and her bunch have run it into the ground leaving no substance.

AND: tonite she's announced she's got enough votes to pass this Healthcare Spendulus bill in Congress before summer break when a) just as of yesterday she was short 43 of her own Democratic votes (mostly bluedog dems) and all but 11 Repubs.

If she doesn't have the votes after that announcement it'll become the sword she chose to die on after her CIA tussle!

[Nickdfresh]

That's basically the classic argument for the Democratic Distraction.

I saw a clip on Hannitys show, with Pelosi saying in an interview "..one of the best things we do up here, is distraction of the Republicans from what we really intend."

When FORD pulls THAT ol' gag from 2003 of ".. but Bush, Bush and Bush" he does it mnemonically from watching too much television, not that he truly understands why or how he absorbed it along the way.

But I noticed it works for him in the DLR forums because just as in normal conversation, the minute someone answers to your distraction, you relieve control of the discussion to the distractor.

Pelosi loves this Clintonian technique because.. it works! However, it is childish and sooo 2003.. she and her bunch have run it into the ground leaving no substance.

AND: tonite she's announced she's got enough votes to pass this Healthcare Spendulus bill in Congress before summer break when a) just as of yesterday she was short 43 of her own Democratic votes (mostly bluedog dems) and all but 11 Repubs.

If she doesn't have the votes after that announcement it'll become the sword she chose to die on after her CIA tussle!

You took your mouth off a cock to notice all that, huh? Did the store near the ally have Fox Snewz on?

[standin]

Gar you are a Wacko Winger.

[FORD]

Posted by a Canadian at Democratic Underground



Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts)

Tue Jul-21-09 12:29 PM

Words you'll never hear in the Canadian health care system

As a Canadian I marvel at all of these terms that are so common to Americans, but are virtually unknown to us.

Here's a partial list off the top of my head:

1. "Out of network"
There are no "networks" in Canada. Doctors and hospitals are not affiliated with private insurance companies. Doctors are private business entities and hospitals are usually run by non-profit boards or regional health associations.

2. "COBRA"
Health coverage is NOT tied to your place of employment in any way. So any COBRA-like scheme is unnecessary.

3. "Co-Pay"
The government pays 100% of basic care, 100% of the time. Drugs are not covered, but are subsidized by government to a point. And because of mass buys, discounts are obtained from the drug companies. That's why our prices are so much lower. Most employers offer a drug plan that pays for 100% of drug cost coverage.

4. "monthly premium\deductible"
Wazzat? We don't consider our health to be the same as our possessions.

5. "waiting for approval"
Doctors are the sole decision makers for health care. NOBODY influences or delays their decisions, warns them of costs or prevents them from giving treatment for any reason.

6. "Government interference"
The provincial government in each province PAYS for whatever services doctors provide. No questions asked. Unless the procedure is experimental, not medically necessary or unwarranted, doctors cannot deny basic care - by law.

7. "Health insurance lobby"
There are NO insurance companies for basic care, only companies for providing insurance for travelers. No money to be made here.

8. "bureaucracy"
When we visit a hospital or doctor's office, we walk in, get treated, walk out. No "applications", "registrations" or any other kind of paperwork is required. We NEVER have to talk to a single "government official" or wait for a "judgment".

9. "PRE-EXISTING CONDITION"
This is such a foreign concept to us. A Canadian's usual reaction to the explanation of this term is astonishment.


I'm glad to see that a sane health care system is within reach in America. Fight for it. It's WORTH it.

Would any of our Hoser friends like to add anything to his comments?

[ELVIS]

...says the NURSE without his own health care coverage.

Government mandated, or Socialized medicine (which is exactly what it is) is in no way intended to help americans, dumbass...

it will increase abortions, ration healthcare (especially for the elderly as well as people beyond the useful working age) and generally tax us ALL to death, not to mention mandatory FEES that will have to be involved. Right now I could buy healthcare for $150 a month. I choose not to. Under Obaahaahaahaahaahaahaahma's plan, I wouldn't have that FREEDOM OF CHOICE!

But it's not going to pass. NO WAY!


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Where's the freedom of choice not to pay trillions on attack sorry I mean 'defence'.

Why not privatize the US military so that the 'christians' can give their income towards mercenary armies to invade other countries and other people can opt out?

This would leave good people more money to allow them to pay for the treatment of their children and parents when they get sick.

[ELVIS]

Write congress and tell them...

The US population has no say in anything anymore...

Most people can't tell you what the first and second amendments are, much less what theit intent was or is...

[Seshmeister]

Perhaps the problem is being stuck with a bunch of rules from slavers hundreds of years ago and it's time for the US to get a modern constitution to protect the people from those that are abusing the old flawed one.

[ELVIS]

The US is at the end of it's days if you ask me...

Nobody hardly knows whats going on and it seems that less even care...

The problem is that this country was built on self government, and i've yet to meet more than ten people in my life who can even digest that idea, much less get involved...

FORD thinks he's involved, but he's part of the problem, not the solution. Unless he's bullshitting us on a daily basis, and I highly doubt that...


:elvis:

[ZahZoo]

Why does everyone in this thread keep saying 23 trillion?

What does money spent saving banks have to do with free health care?

Lack of basic math skills, common sense and shock factors...

Most people can't even grasp what a billion or trillion is.

[letsrock]

The US is at the end of it's days if you ask me...

Nobody hardly knows whats going on and it seems that less even care...

The problem is that this country was built on self government, and i've yet to meet more than ten people in my life who can even digest that idea, much less get involved...
FORD thinks he's involved, but he's part of the problem, not the solution. Unless he's bullshitting us on a daily basis, and I highly doubt that...


:elvis:

Most are afraid to try to run for office.

[letsrock]

I tried and failed, but at least i tried.

[ELVIS]

Good for you...

I sort of have it in mind on a very local level, but I need to grow in the church and the community first, but people know me and i'm well liked, so...who knows...

[Seshmeister]

It can be done.

Elvis impersonator wins a council seat in Spain (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_10758.shtml)




Elvis impersonator wins a council seat in Spain


An Elvis impersonator has been elected as councillor in the local elections in the town of Reus near Barcelona for the independent CORI party.

http://www.typicallyspanish.com/spain/uploads/1/arielsantamaria.jpg

Ariel Santamaría, a former postman, based his election campaign around a series of concerts across the town, but his manifesto is of particular note...

He proposed that marihuana be planted in all green areas across the town and also that the Guardia Urbana carry a GPS satellite system at all times so they can find people who forget their lighters so they can he given a light for their spiff.

He also said the Town Hall should be painted pink, and the town square be converted into a swimming pool for nudists.

Sñr Santamaría also believes in new technology with a web page, and his press secretary has been attending to the press demands dressed as a pirate, eye patch included.

He obtained more than 1,800 votes to be elected as councillor.



I'd vote for him!

Much more sensible policies too rather than trying to gain support amongst the superstitious invisible cloud worshippers.

[ELVIS]

Dude, you're so intelligent, but seem so afraid of God, it's silly...

You are an absolutely great guy, but the the thought that you think the end of your earthly life is the end baffles me...

God is real! I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I pray you let down your guard and your incredibly analytical mind (I have that trait myself) and look at it with an innocent attitude...

It's not easy, I know, but dude, you're missing out...

And I wouldn't bother if I didn't care...


:)

[Seshmeister]

Good slogan - Stop thinking and let god into your life! :)

I can't anyway as I've already promised myself to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Thanks for the concern in any case... :)

[ELVIS]

Hahahaha...:biggrin:

That was pretty damn funny!

[Igosplut]

I can't anyway as I've already promised myself to the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.



Is that some kind of deviant of scientology???

[Guitar Shark]

Is that some kind of deviant of scientology???

It's nowhere near as freaky as Scientology... check it out! :D

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/)

[ELVIS]

Keep on living life as a joke. It's easy when you're relatively young and healthy...

Your attitudes will change when that's all gone...

[FORD]

Let's not get too far off the subject here. I still want to know how someone can be a nurse and not have their own health care.

I can't imagine going to a hospital that doesn't even give a shit if their own employees are healthy. Not a very good example they set there. Elvis, do you work for Bill Frist's corporation? (Humana/HCA)

[ELVIS]

It's called Lousy-Ana...

[kwame k]

Looks like it's a dead issue till the Fall.......

WASHINGTON – Senate Democratic leaders on Thursday abandoned plans for a vote on health care before Congress' August recess, dealing a blow to President Barack Obama's ambitious timetable to revamp the nation's $2.4 trillion system of medical care.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., delivered the official pronouncement on what had been expected for weeks, saying, "It's better to have a product based on quality and thoughtfulness rather than try to jam something through."Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul)

[ELVIS]

It

will

never

happen!

[FORD]

Spineless Harry Reid :gun: strikes again.

I hate that worthless motherfucker more than I do any admitted Repuke.

[kwame k]

We'll see some reform but I doubt we'll ever have a national healthcare system like other countries.

[kwame k]

Spineless Harry Reid :gun: strikes again.

I hate that worthless motherfucker more than I do any admitted Repuke.

Reid and Pelosi are two of the most worthless people ever to hold office, IMO.:pullinghair:

[FORD]

As usual, I think Howard Dean has the best strategy for solving this problem....

1) Create a true Public Option to compete with the corporations.

2) People have the choice whether to stay with their corporate plans or go with the public plan.

3) If the corporations don't clean up their act, and everybody goes with the public option, they drive themselves out of business, and we're left with single payer by default. And since we all know the insurance corporations have no intention of changing their criminal ways, that would be the outcome.

Dean's strategy allows this to happen as the choice of the people, rather than the government coming in with HR 676 (the single payer/Medicare for all bill) and saying, "This is it now, you have no choice". Even though recent polls show 75% of the population favors a single payer system.

[kwame k]

Would of been a good plan but sadly it will never happen like that. Whatever comes out of congress will benefit no one but the Drug Makers, Insurance Companies and the Hospitals themselves.

[FORD]

Thom Hartmann just pointed out the fact that President Obama has the Constitutional authority to keep one or both houses of Congress from their vacations......



Article II
Section 3.

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information on the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; he shall receive Ambassadors and other public Ministers; he shall take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed, and shall Commission all the Officers of the United States.

Will Obama (the former Constitutional law professor) play this card? I know I damn well would.

[kwame k]

He's talking in Ohio right now......

CLEVELAND – President Barack Obama stepped up his us-against-them pitch for overhauling health care Thursday, saying the American people need it and must overcome resistance from opponents in Washington, whom he described vaguely as naysayers and skeptics.

"Reform may be coming too soon for some in Washington," Obama told hundreds who packed a high school gym in the Shaker Heights suburb of Cleveland. "But it's not soon enough for the American people."

The president took a few swipes at Republican critics. But his biggest obstacles are fellow Democrats, who control the House and Senate and are moving slowly on his call for widespread changes to U.S. health care.

Senate leaders said Thursday they could not meet Obama's deadline for a vote before the August recess. And a key House committee is struggling to placate moderate Democrats worried about the plan's costs.

Starting with a news conference Wednesday in Washington, Obama increasingly is pitching his remarks directly to American voters, hoping they will pressure reluctant lawmakers. He ratcheted up the rhetoric at the town hall forum here, likening the bid to overhaul health care to the manned missions to the moon 40 years ago.

"There are those who see our failure to address stubborn problems as a sign that our best days are behind us," Obama said before taking audience questions. "Well, I believe that this generation, like generations past, stands ready to defy the naysayers and the skeptics."Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama;_ylt=At92ViJerCdo6lN2W29rF6is0NUE;_ylu=X3 oDMTJxMWFucmltBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkwNzIzL3VzX29iYW1h BGNwb3MDMQRwb3MDMgRwdANzZWN0aW9uc19jb2tlBHNlYwN5bl 90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA29iYW1hdHVybnNoZQ--)

[kwame k]

Doubt he will keep them in session, FORD.

[FORD]

July 22, 2009

The Honorable Barack Obama
President of the United States of America
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington, DC

Dear President Barack Obama,

On behalf of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, we write to you regarding healthcare reform.

Thank you for your leadership on this issue and for prioritizing the working poor in accessing guaranteed, affordable and quality healthcare.

We have been watching and engaging in the healthcare debate over the past five months and we were particularly encouraged by your commitment to the public option.

As the healthcare proposal continues to move forward in the House and Senate, we ask that you continue your commitment to the inclusion of a strong public option and do not weaken the language that has already passed through two committees.

Let us be clear: a strong public option is already a compromise for the CPC. Many of us strongly supported a single-payer approach. We will not support a weakened public option.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus stands united to provide high quality, affordability and accessibility in healthcare choices for all Americans.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus believes the public plan should provide a guarantee of coverage, affordable, high-quality and accessible healthcare, and lower costs -- regardless of income, health status, race, employment or gender. We strongly oppose any conditions or triggers undermining and limiting the availability of the public option.

We look forward to our continued involvement in the process.

CPC membership list can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Progressive_Caucus)

[Blackflag]

The Honorable

:hee: :duh:



Barack Obama
President of the United States of America
1600 Pennsylvania Ave NW
Washington, DC

Dear President Barack Obama,

On behalf of the Congressional Progressive Caucus, we write to you regarding healthcare reform.

Thank you for your leadership on this issue and for prioritizing the working poor in accessing guaranteed, affordable and quality healthcare.

We have been watching and engaging in the healthcare debate over the past five months and we were particularly encouraged by your commitment to the public option.

As the healthcare proposal continues to move forward in the House and Senate, we ask that you continue your commitment to the inclusion of a strong public option and do not weaken the language that has already passed through two committees.

Let us be clear: a strong public option is already a compromise for the CPC. Many of us strongly supported a single-payer approach. We will not support a weakened public option.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus stands united to provide high quality, affordability and accessibility in healthcare choices for all Americans.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus believes the public plan should provide a guarantee of coverage, affordable, high-quality and accessible healthcare, and lower costs -- regardless of income, health status, race, employment or gender. We strongly oppose any conditions or triggers undermining and limiting the availability of the public option.

We look forward to our continued involvement in the process.


:poofters:

[jacksmar]

Drug user, karaoke slut, and Halfrican queen performs for the press and the AMA.

Barry to Louis Wolcott: Your calypso act can't hold a candle to my Tina Turner impression.

[letsrock]

Doesnt look like they will have the votes.

[letsrock]

Guess they will find something new to tax us to death on.

[Angel]

Posted by a Canadian at Democratic Underground



Would any of our Hoser friends like to add anything to his comments?

He pretty much covered it all there, FORD. The misconceptions regarding our health plan down there blow our minds! All I can say is - if I was in the States, I'd be dead.

I have a "pre-existing condition" (pacemaker). Nobody would give me insurance down there, and if they did, the premiums would probably be at least $1000/mo.

I choose which doctor I go to. Yeah, I might have to wait a long time for that knee or hip surgery, but I get my new pacemaker when I need it, and I've known numerous people who have gone to emergency for something, and had their surgery within the next 3 days.

A HUGE difference is that we practice preventive medicine, because we don't have to worry about paying for doctors/lab fees, etc. Many cancers are caught in the early stage, when they are still treatable... and your government spends a hell of a lot more on health care per capita than ours does.

[FORD]

Hey, look how long Eddie Van Halen had to wait for hip surgery, and he's a rich guy in the US!

[ELVIS]

Yeah...

Obama's leadership in healthcare reform, although he admittedly has not read the bill...

[ZahZoo]

Was on a road trip last weekend and listened to quite a bit of talk radio to kill the boredom. There was some woman on an NPR program discussing one of the Medicare/Medicaid modification provisions.

It's on page 425 of the house bill... it provides guidelines for mandatory counseling for the "elderly" with their physicians, family, attornies, etc... regarding End of Life provisions and stipulations for life threatening medical conditions.

The bill covers most of the standard stuff regarding patient wishes for a living will, do not resucitate instructions and common treatment provisions and discussion of options for extended care, rest homes, home hospice, assisted living, etc...

The main focus of the discussion was inclusions in the bill to include mandatory counseling with considerations leaning towards self induced euthanasia when a life threatening illness or disease is diagnosed. Methods of nutrition or hydration reductions to facilitate death at a more rapid rate than what would naturally occur.

Interesting subject matter... the NPR person was focusing only on if the mandatory counseling would be primarily focused on pressuring the elderly to chose taking them sleves out rather than expensive medical interventions for life threatening illnesses.

I personally don't have a problem with counseling and presenting all possible options. Having dealt with elder care the last several years it's a tough arena... especially difficult when the older person hasn't given consideration to their wishes before their mental capacity has deteriorated beyond being able to effectively participate in the decision process.

How far do y'all think such mandatory counseling should go?

[ELVIS]

Thank you Zah...couldn't have said it better...

I heard the exact same show and the only part you left out is that the NPR host seemed to be glorifying the whole thing...

But it was scary to listen to, and most people have no idea that these things are indicated in the bill...

[ZahZoo]

Agreed the NPR person was solely focused on the self euthanasia aspects... which was somewhat over the top in the way it was presented.

It did prompt me to go read that sub-section... which only contains one mention of artificial nutrition/hydration considerations. The primary focus in the bill was living will and health care/assisted care considerations.

[ELVIS]

Which will be reduced in unimaginable proportions...

Thank you again...

[FORD]

You guys realize that you're talking about hospice care for the terminally ill here, not some sort of neo-Hitlerian extermination program from a bad sci-fi movie.

Elvis (as a nurse) should certainly know better.

[ELVIS]

I do...

That's why i'm entirely against this...

[ELVIS]

And you can compare it to a "sort of neo-Hitlerian extermination program from a bad sci-fi movie."

[ZahZoo]

You guys realize that you're talking about hospice care for the terminally ill here, not some sort of neo-Hitlerian extermination program from a bad sci-fi movie.

Elvis (as a nurse) should certainly know better.

I wouldn't say that the case Ford... It's much more comprehensive. Have you read the section 1233?

The PDF format doesn't copy well but here's the main portion of the section.


SEC. 1233. ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION.
16 (a) MEDICARE.—
17 (1) IN GENERAL.—Section 1861 of the Social
18 Security Act (42 U.S.C. 1395x) is amended—
19 (A) in subsection (s)(2)—
20 (i) by striking ‘‘and’’ at the end of
21 subparagraph (DD);
22 (ii) by adding ‘‘and’’ at the end of
23 subparagraph (EE); and
24 (iii) by adding at the end the fol25
lowing new subparagraph:
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425
1 ‘‘(FF) advance care planning consultation (as
2 defined in subsection (hhh)(1));’’; and
3 (B) by adding at the end the following new
4 subsection:
5 ‘‘Advance Care Planning Consultation
6 ‘‘(hhh)(1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the
7 term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a con8
sultation between the individual and a practitioner de9
scribed in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning,
10 if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has
11 not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such
12 consultation shall include the following:
13 ‘‘(A) An explanation by the practitioner of ad14
vance care planning, including key questions and
15 considerations, important steps, and suggested peo16
ple to talk to.
17 ‘‘(B) An explanation by the practitioner of ad18
vance directives, including living wills and durable
19 powers of attorney, and their uses.
20 ‘‘(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the
21 role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
22 ‘‘(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list
23 of national and State-specific resources to assist con24
sumers and their families with advance care plan25
ning, including the national toll-free hotline, the ad-
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426
1 vance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal
2 service organizations (including those funded
3 through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
4 ‘‘(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the
5 continuum of end-of-life services and supports avail6
able, including palliative care and hospice, and bene7
fits for such services and supports that are available
8 under this title.
9 ‘‘(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of
10 orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar
11 orders, which shall include—
12 ‘‘(I) the reasons why the development of
13 such an order is beneficial to the individual and
14 the individual’s family and the reasons why
15 such an order should be updated periodically as
16 the health of the individual changes;
17 ‘‘(II) the information needed for an indi18
vidual or legal surrogate to make informed deci19
sions regarding the completion of such an
20 order; and
21 ‘‘(III) the identification of resources that
22 an individual may use to determine the require23
ments of the State in which such individual re24
sides so that the treatment wishes of that indi25
vidual will be carried out if the individual is un-
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427
1 able to communicate those wishes, including re2
quirements regarding the designation of a sur3
rogate decisionmaker (also known as a health
4 care proxy).
5 ‘‘(ii) The Secretary shall limit the requirement
6 for explanations under clause (i) to consultations
7 furnished in a State—
8 ‘‘(I) in which all legal barriers have been
9 addressed for enabling orders for life sustaining
10 treatment to constitute a set of medical orders
11 respected across all care settings; and
12 ‘‘(II) that has in effect a program for or13
ders for life sustaining treatment described in
14 clause (iii).
15 ‘‘(iii) A program for orders for life sustaining
16 treatment for a States described in this clause is a
17 program that—
18 ‘‘(I) ensures such orders are standardized
19 and uniquely identifiable throughout the State;
20 ‘‘(II) distributes or makes accessible such
21 orders to physicians and other health profes22
sionals that (acting within the scope of the pro23
fessional’s authority under State law) may sign
24 orders for life sustaining treatment;
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428
1 ‘‘(III) provides training for health care
2 professionals across the continuum of care
3 about the goals and use of orders for life sus4
taining treatment; and
5 ‘‘(IV) is guided by a coalition of stake6
holders includes representatives from emergency
7 medical services, emergency department physi8
cians or nurses, state long-term care associa9
tion, state medical association, state surveyors,
10 agency responsible for senior services, state de11
partment of health, state hospital association,
12 home health association, state bar association,
13 and state hospice association.
14 ‘‘(2) A practitioner described in this paragraph is—
15 ‘‘(A) a physician (as defined in subsection
16 (r)(1)); and
17 ‘‘(B) a nurse practitioner or physician’s assist18
ant who has the authority under State law to sign
19 orders for life sustaining treatments.
20 ‘‘(3)(A) An initial preventive physical examination
21 under subsection (WW), including any related discussion
22 during such examination, shall not be considered an ad23
vance care planning consultation for purposes of applying
24 the 5-year limitation under paragraph (1).
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1 ‘‘(B) An advance care planning consultation with re2
spect to an individual may be conducted more frequently
3 than provided under paragraph (1) if there is a significant
4 change in the health condition of the individual, including
5 diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a
6 life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening
7 injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a
8 long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or
9 a hospice program.
10 ‘‘(4) A consultation under this subsection may in11
clude the formulation of an order regarding life sustaining
12 treatment or a similar order.
13 ‘‘(5)(A) For purposes of this section, the term ‘order
14 regarding life sustaining treatment’ means, with respect
15 to an individual, an actionable medical order relating to
16 the treatment of that individual that—
17 ‘‘(i) is signed and dated by a physician (as de18
fined in subsection (r)(1)) or another health care
19 professional (as specified by the Secretary and who
20 is acting within the scope of the professional’s au21
thority under State law in signing such an order, in22
cluding a nurse practitioner or physician assistant)
23 and is in a form that permits it to stay with the in24
dividual and be followed by health care professionals
25 and providers across the continuum of care;
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430
1 ‘‘(ii) effectively communicates the individual’s
2 preferences regarding life sustaining treatment, in3
cluding an indication of the treatment and care de4
sired by the individual;
5 ‘‘(iii) is uniquely identifiable and standardized
6 within a given locality, region, or State (as identified
7 by the Secretary); and
8 ‘‘(iv) may incorporate any advance directive (as
9 defined in section 1866(f)(3)) if executed by the in10
dividual.
11 ‘‘(B) The level of treatment indicated under subpara12
graph (A)(ii) may range from an indication for full treat13
ment to an indication to limit some or all or specified
14 interventions. Such indicated levels of treatment may in15
clude indications respecting, among other items—
16 ‘‘(i) the intensity of medical intervention if the
17 patient is pulse less, apneic, or has serious cardiac
18 or pulmonary problems;
19 ‘‘(ii) the individual’s desire regarding transfer
20 to a hospital or remaining at the current care set21
ting;
22 ‘‘(iii) the use of antibiotics; and
23 ‘‘(iv) the use of artificially administered nutri24
tion and hydration.’’.
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431
1 (2) PAYMENT.—Section 1848(j)(3) of such Act
2 (42 U.S.C. 1395w-4(j)(3)) is amended by inserting
3 ‘‘(2)(FF),’’ after ‘‘(2)(EE),’’.
4 (3) FREQUENCY LIMITATION.—Section 1862(a)
5 of such Act (42 U.S.C. 1395y(a)) is amended—
6 (A) in paragraph (1)—
7 (i) in subparagraph (N), by striking
8 ‘‘and’’ at the end;
9 (ii) in subparagraph (O) by striking
10 the semicolon at the end and inserting ‘‘,
11 and’’; and
12 (iii) by adding at the end the fol13
lowing new subparagraph:
14 ‘‘(P) in the case of advance care planning
15 consultations (as defined in section
16 1861(hhh)(1)), which are performed more fre17
quently than is covered under such section;’’;
18 and
19 (B) in paragraph (7), by striking ‘‘or (K)’’
20 and inserting ‘‘(K), or (P)’’.
21 (4) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendments made
22 by this subsection shall apply to consultations fur23
nished on or after January 1, 2011.
24 (b) EXPANSION OF PHYSICIAN QUALITY REPORTING
25 INITIATIVE FOR END OF LIFE CARE.—
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[ELVIS]

I'm glad i'm not a family practitioner MD, because i'd probably give it up...

My guess is, many MD's will throw in the towell if this crap passes...but it wont...it can't!

[FORD]

Here's a case for you, Nurse Presley......

87 year old woman in complete renal failure. The kidney damage was directly caused by heart medication, so obviously there's another organ going down hill fast.

Patient is suffering in extreme pain and rarely conscious. Maybe due to the physical condition or the pain meds she's on (probably morphine)

Do you attempt dialysis and prolong her suffering, or do you let nature take its course?

[ELVIS]

You let her and her immediate family make that decision after consultation with the doctor, and/or her specialist doctors...

[Blackflag]

You let her and her immediate family make that decision after consultation with the doctor, and/or her specialist doctors...

Exactly. Only a bureaucrat-lover like Ford would think they should make that decision for somebody.

[FORD]

You let her and her immediate family make that decision after consultation with the doctor, and/or her specialist doctors...

Which is exactly what was done. And then Grandma went to be with Jesus :(

And I've hated the pharmaceutical industry ever since........

But in your earlier posts you seemed to think it was somehow "wrong" to allow patients and/or their families the right to make those decisions. As hard and painful as they are.

[Dolemite!]

If we're talking about God and heaven then, this is apropriate.

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[ZahZoo]

Actually under this bill... Grandma's physicians would have been required to counsel her and the family on the scenarios and preferred treatment or non-treatments long before the renal failure and other stuff had her suffering.

I think the key provision which I'm in favor of... is requiring comprehensive consultations before being confronted with a critical situation. Hopefully while the patient is still in a mental state to understand and make informed decisions on their future treatments. Then it's documented and goes wherever the patient goes. Key feature...

This prevents doctors from ordering up treatments and passing the patient off to the next guy who orders up more tests, treatments, etc... There's a complete lack of continuity among the medical community unless you live in some very small town or similar.

[ELVIS]

But in your earlier posts you seemed to think it was somehow "wrong" to allow patients and/or their families the right to make those decisions. As hard and painful as they are.

Well...

I was probably making replies to various things...

But my last reply represents my true feelings, and I act as such professionally...

[FORD]

Actually under this bill... Grandma's physicians would have been required to counsel her and the family on the scenarios and preferred treatment or non-treatments long before the renal failure and other stuff had her suffering.

As I mentioned, her heart wasn't in the greatest shape, and she was in and out of hospitals because of that. Eventually had to be tied to a portable oxygen tank and moved in with my parents because she couldn't be on her own. The only thing surprising in all of that was that her kidneys ended up being what killed her, rather than her heart. And it was the heart medication that did it.



I think the key provision which I'm in favor of... is requiring comprehensive consultations before being confronted with a critical situation. Hopefully while the patient is still in a mental state to understand and make informed decisions on their future treatments. Then it's documented and goes wherever the patient goes. Key feature...

This prevents doctors from ordering up treatments and passing the patient off to the next guy who orders up more tests, treatments, etc... There's a complete lack of continuity among the medical community unless you live in some very small town or similar.

Well I'm not sure how they do it in Texas (or Louisiana), but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what is done, in every case I've seen in Washington or Arizona, at least.

[ELVIS]

Well, thanks for giving some insight and sorry to hear the outcome...

God Bless you grandmother...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Thanks.... that was way back in 1996, so it hurts a lot less now than it did then. But I lost a lot of faith in "modern medicine" through that, and a few other similar processes through the years. Sure, people get old, their bodies fall apart and they die. But it doesn't make any sense to me that you would take a drug to help one organ that kills another.

[ELVIS]

Exactly, but thanks again...

[ELVIS]

And I understand...

[standin]

Moreover, this is not just an old person’s issue, Elvis.
When I was dying from "heart failure" and I spoke to my doctor about stopping all medications and let nature take its course, instead of an exploratory operation, there was nothing in place to address my choice. In addition, it brought fear to my doctor; I could see it in his eyes.
Grant the outcome was different. Either due to his fear or desperation of not wanting to help a patient pass, which made him dig deep into any and every test, therefore finally found what the medical condition was.

However, had the medical community not been run by profit and pharmacopeias my condition would have been managed long before it became a crisis.


My sympathy to you Ford for your experience and loss of a loved on through the US health industry.

[Seshmeister]

I'm glad i'm not a family practitioner MD,


Given your superstitions about vaccinations everyone else is glad too.:)

[VanHalener]

We're gonna have to chat standin.
I am in heart failure and afib, but with a high quality of life and a smiling "We all have to go from something" attitude. They gave me 5 to 10 years to rock out to the real Van Halen and I said, "OWWWWW YEAH!"
My case was an emergency, and they way I was feeling made me decide to head into D.C. to the VA ER and be seen by a doctor STAT. I have to say that I have been given excellent timely care and monitoring.
Going to the VA spared me the cash game and delays inherent in a public hospital.
Thank you God and country.
What would the best health care system be anyway? People should be able to walk into any hospital anywhere and just say, "I'm sick" and be treated by a doctor that day, but until greed is overcome many people will continue to suffer by the wayside.
~There's gotta be a better way~

[standin]

Pop over to my blog here VanHalener, I have a chat module set up. Or, drop me a PM and I’ll give you an accessible yahoo chat ID or restricted email that can carry off line conversations.
Heart failure is quite an adventure in its self. People that have not experienced their heart stopping for brief periods cannot understand the feeling.

There was talk about a heart afib for me, but my decent was happening fast. As screwed up as it sounds I would not want to have not experienced what I did. I am not thrilled that I did experience it. But, there is a direct connection to life and your heart and people that have not crossed that threshold don’t quite grasp the intensity of that connection.

It is a long shot to an extent, depending on your background, and experimental, nevertheless, noninvasive and not expensive.

[bueno bob]

Cut military spending.

Fund universal health care.

Problem solved, easy as that.

[Big Train]

All this pissing and moaning from both sides but no real discussion on WHY things cost so much and how to control that. Just "Who is gonna pay for it".

Single payer does not solve that root issue.

While I'm no medical expert, the basic problems seem to be two fold.

1. Medical companies right to fully exploit patents on medical tech and drugs.
2. Legal possibilities and the attendant needs to insure to protect against it.

The answers aren't any simpler. What is being proposed just shifts those same burdens from private companies to the government. I don't see how either of those issues get easier under a single payer or what the benefit of it might be.

Until those needs are addressed, who is paying for it doesn't make it any more effecient.

[letsrock]

Pop over to my blog here VanHalener, I have a chat module set up. Or, drop me a PM and I’ll give you an accessible yahoo chat ID or restricted email that can carry off line conversations.
Heart failure is quite an adventure in its self. People that have not experienced their heart stopping for brief periods cannot understand the feeling.

There was talk about a heart afib for me, but my decent was happening fast. As screwed up as it sounds I would not want to have not experienced what I did. I am not thrilled that I did experience it. But, there is a direct connection to life and your heart and people that have not crossed that threshold don’t quite grasp the intensity of that connection.

It is a long shot to an extent, depending on your background, and experimental, nevertheless, noninvasive and not expensive.

Hey how is your status now? Are you feeling better? Still in crisis mode? Have you recovered any?
i hope that your doing better and on the way to good health.
It sucks being sick.

John

[FORD]

WHY things cost so much is simple. You have corporations running the show, and corporations motive is profit, not the health of the patient.

A single payer system would take that bullshit completely out of the equation, at least as far as the insurance companies go. Since the government wouldn't be running the hospitals themselves, they would probably still attempt to overcharge. But with the government being the sole insurer, that would also leave an obvious public interest basis for serious regulation and oversight of the medical & pharmaceutical industries for their billing practices, which are (to put it mildly) less than honest under the current corporate system.

A true public option, as proposed by Howard Dean, would arguably keep the corporations in check by forcing them to compete with a more efficient public system. And if the corporations didn't clean up their act, they would be cutting their own throats, eventually forcing themselves out of the game.

Any shell game played by the Baucus/Schumer/Conrad types in the Senate will leave us with either a mandatory corporate Romneycare system, or state/local based "co-ops" which cannot possibly compete with insurance corporations, because in the insurance game, the biggest number is always the size of your "pool". And I don't mean the cement pond behind the mansion of United Health Care's CEO.

[Big Train]

That is oversimplified.

Overall healthcare would suffer in the pissing contest between the government and the insurers. Many companies will leave medical altogether, since it is now an all or nothing proposition. Either the government plays ball with you or not. What company is gonna pour billions into R&D for a new miracle drug that the government will buy for cost or less? Not many. Ditto many surgeries that the government would deem not neccesary or excessive. Without private ins. which would allow those options to those who can pay for them, they will not be available.

There will be less choice, less options and less overall innovation.

You WANT that?

[FORD]

I don't things like boob jobs and face lifts should be eligible for a public system. Insurance corporations could still sell supplemental coverage for things like that.

Thom Hartmann mentioned this morning that there are European countries where a private/public system exists, BUT it's also the law in those countries that regular health care is NOT a for profit business.

[Big Train]

But that's just it, what is and what is not funded by the public system? Tonsils according to the President are just being overdone.

What if the drug you need is not available because of the government? What if it is priced very high since such a small number of people have access to it? Have you solved ANYTHING by being single payer?

The only way to reduce cost is to reduce reward. The Obama admin wants to go after profits as if profits were a bad thing. The way to do that and remain productive is for government to massively ramp up R&D on it's dime, which reduces the amount of patents companies and individuals can be a party to and enjoy. Has that even been put on the table?

No, Pelosi is ranting "the ins. companies are the villians!!". Ditto the drug companies. Even though she could clearly benefit from their wares.

This plan would be useful if the President actually did "made it about him". Make it a plan every member of Congress and the Government uses, with the same level of care. No special plans for them, no add ons. Let them pay for it like we will. Then I would take them seriously.

[Seshmeister]

The R&D thing is a bit of a myth really. It's surprising because they ram that argument down our throats all the fucking time but if you look at the accounts of big pharma companies R&D makes up only about 15&#37; of their budget and marketing over 40%. Plus your argument is typically US insular.

There are more customers of drug companies outwith the US in government schemes than in the US. Why would you want to subsidize the rest of the world any way by overpaying?

The present system is also not helpful because companies spend all their resources researching drugs that people will have to take for a long time like ADT drugs or Viagra to maximise profits rather than making the stuff we really need like new antibiotics.

[letsrock]

Arent most drug companies testing the new products of the poor in Africa. I heard that at one point, no idea if its true.

[LoungeMachine]

Arent most drug companies testing the new products of the poor in Africa. I heard that at one point, no idea if its true.

Then why not educate yourself and do your own fucking research and come back and tell us what you learned, rather than just regurgitating something you heard on the radio while you weren't working?

What a mindless fucking post. :rolleyes:

You have no idea if something is true, and rather than finding out, you just spew it here and wait for us to tell you what you don't know.

:gulp:

You really bring nothing to this forum, moron...

[LoungeMachine]

This took all of 4 seconds to find......

Is Africa the dumping ground for Pharmaceutical company experimental drugs?
This report reinforces my long held view that Africa is the dumping ground for Drug company's experimental drugs.
What do you think?

BBC NEWS | Africa | Anger at deadly Nigerian drug trials (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6768799.stm)

Anger at deadly Nigerian drug trials
By Senan Murray
BBC News website, Kano

In school, Anas Mohammadu's mates call him "horror" and make fun of him.

When the 14-year-old goes to bed at night, he dreams of becoming a soldier.


Anas survived the treatment, but was permanently damaged His father, Muhammadu Mustapha, knows his son's dream is unlikely to come true. "It's only a pipedream. You don't become a soldier with weak and wobbly legs and a permanently drooling mouth," he says bitterly. "He tires too quickly. The other day, he was trying to draw water from a well and the small bucket almost pulled him into the well."

But Anas is lucky to be alive.

Deformities

Many other children who were used in the controversial 1996 drug trial by US pharmaceutical giant Pfizer died.

The Americans and some local Nigerian doctors gave Anas this evil drug Anas's father

Anas, then only three years old, was the first child to be given the experimental antibiotic Trovan at the Infectious Diseases Hospital, Kano, during the drug trial.

Pfizer tested the then unregistered drug in Nigeria's north-western Kano State during an outbreak of meningitis which had affected thousands of children.

Officials in Kano say more than 50 children died in the experiment, while many others developed mental and physical deformities.

But Pfizer says only 11 of the 200 children used in the drug trial died.

"From our records, the fatalities were only 11, but the survival rate was 94 per cent," Pfizer spokesman in New York, Bryant Haskins, told the BBC News website.

Following pressure from rights groups and families affected by the trial, the Nigerian government set up an expert medical panel to review the drug trial.

The experiment was "an illegal trial of an unregistered drug", the Nigerian panel concluded, and a "clear case of exploitation of the ignorant".

'Verbal consent'

Pfizer denies any wrongdoing and reiterates its position that its trial of Trovan was conducted in accordance with Nigerian regulations.

Hajara survived the trials but cannot now hear or speak

"These allegations against Pfizer, which are not new, are highly inflammatory and not based on all the facts," Mr Haskins, recently told Reuters news agency.

He also said the trial had helped save lives.

The company has previously said that "verbal consent" had been obtained from the parents of the children concerned and that the exercise was "sound from medical, scientific, regulatory and ethical standpoints".

But Mr Mustapha is still burning with anger.

"My son was ill and we took him to the hospital like any other family would. Then the Americans and some local Nigerian doctors injected Anas with this evil drug."

Another man, Hassan Sani, says his daughter Hajara, 14, was also given the drug.

He says the pill made his daughter deaf and unable to speak, and he wants the doctors involved to be treated as criminals.


We did not suspect that our children were being used for an experiment

Hajara's father
"The American doctors took advantage of our illiteracy and cheated us and our children. We thought they were helping us," Mr Sani says.

"We did not suspect that our children were being used for an experiment. They have cheated us and our children. All I can say is that God will judge them according to their evil deeds.

"Where there is a crime, there must be punishment."

'Charges'

After more than a decade of silence, the Nigerian government has decided to sue Pfizer, seeking $7bn (&#163;3.5bn) in damages for the families of children who allegedly died or suffered side-effects in the experiment.

Kano State government has also filed separate charges against Pfizer.

But Mr Sani says compensation will not be enough.

"In addition to the compensation, they should be killed like the children they have killed," he says.

The Pfizer experiment was cited by many as a reason for the mass rejection of polio vaccinations in many parts of northern Nigeria in recent years.

Some local Islamic preachers said there was a western plot to sterilise Muslim women.

After several tests were carried out to proving the vaccine's safety, the programme has now been resumed.

Whether the families ever receive compensation, it will never be enough to bring back Anas's lost dreams of becoming a soldier.

[WACF]

When the hospital is in it to make a profit...and the only way an insurance company makes money is by turning down some claims...I would say you are fucked.

There are many models in the world today.

Take them...look at them...and try to make the best one you can.

Who cares if every one pays into it but some reap more from it because...they got sick.

I hope to get through life without a tragic health condition...and I am happy to know my tax dollars help those that are.

....because it is only right to help our fellow countrymen/women when in need.

[Big Train]

The R&D thing is a bit of a myth really. It's surprising because they ram that argument down our throats all the fucking time but if you look at the accounts of big pharma companies R&D makes up only about 15% of their budget and marketing over 40%. Plus your argument is typically US insular.

There are more customers of drug companies outwith the US in government schemes than in the US. Why would you want to subsidize the rest of the world any way by overpaying?

The present system is also not helpful because companies spend all their resources researching drugs that people will have to take for a long time like ADT drugs or Viagra to maximise profits rather than making the stuff we really need like new antibiotics.

Well yea, I'm from the US. When I get on the U2 fan forums, we can I'll make it more UK centric for you...

The R&D layout is a big number, as is the marketing. But over the life of the patent, both numbers are paid in full many times over. The key point I'm trying to make is that nobody will lay out billions in risk for the research without tens of billions of reward in patents. The only way to circumvent that and keep the path of innovation to new drugs and cures is for the government to ramp up R&D on it's dime.

[FORD]

Well yea, I'm from the US. When I get on the U2 fan forums, we can I'll make it more UK centric for you...


Why would you be more UK centric for an Irish band?

[Blackflag]

the government to ramp up R&D on it's dime.

But a dollar of government research does not equal a dollar of private sector research.

The whole problem here is the something-for-nothing mentality. People want drugs without having to pay for the development costs. People want medical care without paying for insurance. It's all bullshit.

[Nickdfresh]

But a dollar of government research does not equal a dollar of private sector research.

The whole problem here is the something-for-nothing mentality. People want drugs without having to pay for the development costs. People want medical care without paying for insurance. It's all bullshit.

Oh lawds! Saves us in the pharmaceutical industries!!!

https://wootcontestimages.s3.amazonaws.com/209-2.jpg

[Blackflag]

You've been waiting a really long time to use that picture, haven't you?

Do you think your hard on for me will ever subside? Ever? :biggrin:

[ELVIS]

I don't things like boob jobs and face lifts should be eligible for a public system.

How 'bout abortion ??

[Nickdfresh]

You've been waiting a really long time to use that picture, haven't you?

Do you think your hard on for me will ever subside? Ever? :biggrin:

You love that picture, and no, I Googled it last night after drinking heavily...

[WACF]

How 'bout abortion ??

We have that moral issue as well.

While I believe abortion is wrong...it is also wrong to impose my beliefs on someone else...

When medically required there should be no issues...as birth control...I really do not like it and think it should be paid out of pocket...but there is so much more good than bad with our health care.

You should look at health care as something that will be coming...and do your best to help shape instead of sink it.

You might get something close to what you want...

[jhale667]

How 'bout abortion ??



And about that.... why are you delusional enough to think Healthcare reform will increase them somehow?

[FORD]

And about that.... why are you delusional enough to think Healthcare reform will increase them somehow?

Because that's the current right wing spin to get their base pissed off about health care... "Obama wants you to pay for killin' babies and old people". They'll find a way to bring the gays into it eventually. Same old right wing propaganda, slightly modified for the new subject matter....

[Big Train]

Why would you be more UK centric for an Irish band?


I need to take my time to be pithy, not in a rush. How about European centric?

[WACF]

Because that's the current right wing spin to get their base pissed off about health care... "Obama wants you to pay for killin' babies and old people". They'll find a way to bring the gays into it eventually. Same old right wing propaganda, slightly modified for the new subject matter....

Not only right wing.

I know lefties here that do not agree with abortion being funded publicly.

It is a moral isssue.

The difference is...rights are rights...and you can not make someone do something because of your beliefs.

Should it be used as birth control and funded....no.

Should a woman have access to abortion...yes.

But...here it is publicly funded....it is what it is...and anytime it gets brought up...the left wingers here raise hell and cry about human rights...the evil right taking away women's rights...it gets ridiculous.

Politics....if you killed off the extremes at both ends of the right and left...you would actually have something.

[Big Train]

But a dollar of government research does not equal a dollar of private sector research.

The whole problem here is the something-for-nothing mentality. People want drugs without having to pay for the development costs. People want medical care without paying for insurance. It's all bullshit.

It's not all bullshit, it is an alternate solution. A dollar of government research properly spent is worth three dollars of privately spent money on research. It is just never properly spent because like all government ventures, it has a layer of management and patronage jobs which sucks out a vast portion of the value of those dollars.

However, private money equals patent protection and insane amounts of money to acquire the finished product, mostly because of the patent protections.

It's good economics. I'm happy with either way.

I'm just offering it up as an alternative proposal to the single minded single payer system. Cost control is the real source of the problem. Perhaps have an economic mindset applied to the problem might be a better exercise.

[FORD]

I need to take my time to be pithy, not in a rush. How about European centric?

Sesh is Scottish. You should have gone with the Bay City Rollers. :biggrin:

[Guitar Shark]

http://www.wunderkraut.com/art/town_williekilt.gif

[Blackflag]

A dollar of government research properly spent is worth three dollars of privately spent money on research.

Never has happened, never will happen. Otherwise, I see your point.

[ELVIS]

Not only right wing.

I know lefties here that do not agree with abortion being funded publicly.

It is a moral isssue.



Exactly...

Under Obama's delusion, taxpayers will be funding abortion whether they like or not...

That is WRONG!


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Once they are out of the cunt though you strongly support taxpayers paying for their death whether they like it or not.

http://shahrzaad.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/32_8709280687_l600.jpg

Why is it exactly you have a screaming fit about the flushing of a handful of cells 99&#37; of the time but delight in the bombing of children.

Why is it cool for you to pay for an Iraqi doctors child to be killed yet you worry so much about some cells in an American whore?

It can't be a racial thing because everyone knows America is full of people from all over the world.

[Blackflag]

but delight in the bombing of children.

Yeah, I'm sure he "delights" in the bombing of children. :umm: Good argument.

Have you taken up huffing since I was gone?

[Seshmeister]

I never noticed you were gone.

You can't deny the spectacular BS of crying about the lack of individual voter consent for abortions v. the consent for bombing the fuck out of people.

[Blackflag]

I never noticed you were gone.

Yet more evidence of huffing.




You can't deny the spectacular BS of crying about the lack of individual voter consent for abortions v. the consent for bombing the fuck out of people.

Isn't the same lame-ass argument as abortion vs. executions? Holy shit, think of something original. The one has nothing to do with the other.

More to the point, do you really think he finds "delight in the bombing of children?" Or did you just show yourself as a really lame motherfucker?

[FORD]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eBog1R0i_Ag&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eBog1R0i_Ag&color1=0xb1b1b1&color2=0xcfcfcf&feature=player_embedded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[VanHalener]

... I got stabbed over a dime bag...


Great title for a hard rock jam.
Best played at Christmas

[ELVIS]

Once they are out of the cunt though you strongly support taxpayers paying for their death whether they like it or not.

http://shahrzaad.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/32_8709280687_l600.jpg

Why is it exactly you have a screaming fit about the flushing of a handful of cells 99&#37; of the time but delight in the bombing of children.

Why is it cool for you to pay for an Iraqi doctors child to be killed yet you worry so much about some cells in an American whore?

It can't be a racial thing because everyone knows America is full of people from all over the world.

I'm sorry and basically appalled that you draw that conclusion about me...

In fact, I don't believe you think those ideas are in my head, or anything I support...

If you're merely just making a point, I get it, but don't lay it on me...


Cheers!
:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Yet more evidence of huffing.

Isn't the same lame-ass argument as abortion vs. executions? Holy shit, think of something original. The one has nothing to do with the other.

Oh right, there's nothing to the fact that many morons adhering to the sanctity of life arguments are all for killing "criminals" in droves (even if the might be innocent, which I've actually seen argued here.)


More to the point, do you really think he finds "delight in the bombing of children?" Or did you just show yourself as a really lame motherfucker?

No. But his tax dollars have gone for it all the same. We're now quibbling over healthcare that will cost as much in a decade as two years of the US defense budget...

And dude, you're such a fucking asshole. Who they fuck told you which were valid arguments and which weren't? We have to shut down the debate now because your panties are in a bind?

[hideyoursheep]

Once they are out of the cunt though you strongly support taxpayers paying for their death whether they like it or not.

http://shahrzaad.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/32_8709280687_l600.jpg

Why is it exactly you have a screaming fit about the flushing of a handful of cells 99% of the time but delight in the bombing of children.

Why is it cool for you to pay for an Iraqi doctors child to be killed yet you worry so much about some cells in an American whore?

It can't be a racial thing because everyone knows America is full of people from all over the world.

I take it Scotland doesn't have a military?

BTW, Iraqis NEVER bomb each other indiscriminately, do they?

:rolleyes:

Really Shesh...that was pointless.

[VanHalener]

... you taken up huffing since I was gone?


I used to huff white vinegar, but I gave it up for balsamic.

[Blackflag]

Who they fuck told you which were valid arguments and which weren't? We have to shut down the debate now because your panties are in a bind?

Yeah, that was quite a "debate." "You like to kill babies!" "No I don't!" :umm:

[Blackflag]

I used to huff white vinegar, but I gave it up for balsamic.

White wine vinegar is the best.

[Bandit02tn]

Posted by a Canadian at Democratic Underground



Would any of our Hoser friends like to add anything to his comments?

:soapbox:l have two words for that HORSE SHIT! My cousins wife needs a heart transplant..... Obviously US healthcare will not pay for it and she has no insurance because she is "here" illegaly so we make a mad dash to take her to her family in Canada thinking that their healthcare will help her get her heart transplant being that she is a Canadian citizen and the great healthcare system . Nope but they are going to perform surgery on her cataracts.......:019: Can't figure that one out

[FORD]

:soapbox:l have two words for that HORSE SHIT! My cousins wife needs a heart transplant..... Obviously US healthcare will not pay for it and she has no insurance because she is "here" illegaly so we make a mad dash to take her to her family in Canada thinking that their healthcare will help her get her heart transplant being that she is a Canadian citizen and the great healthcare system . Nope but they are going to perform surgery on her cataracts.......:019: Can't figure that one out

Ignore that "thanks"... it was an accident. Because I'm calling bullshit on your post. As I'm sure our Canadian friends here will do the same.

[Seshmeister]

:soapbox:l have two words for that HORSE SHIT! My cousins wife needs a heart transplant..... Obviously US healthcare will not pay for it and she has no insurance because she is "here" illegaly so we make a mad dash to take her to her family in Canada thinking that their healthcare will help her get her heart transplant being that she is a Canadian citizen and the great healthcare system . Nope but they are going to perform surgery on her cataracts.......:019: Can't figure that one out

Who knows without more details but it's very possibly due to the fact that most people don't carry donor cards.

A transplant is always the absolute last option as although its not technically that difficult to do the rejection thing very often kills you one way or the other.

To be honest I think you need to prepare yourself for the fact she's probably fucked...

[Seshmeister]

I'm sorry and basically appalled that you draw that conclusion about me...

In fact, I don't believe you think those ideas are in my head, or anything I support...

If you're merely just making a point, I get it, but don't lay it on me...


Cheers!
:gulp:

So you are against the war now?

If I post a single picture of a casualty of the war all the people that supported it get all pissy at me like I have done something wrong.

Why is that?

[WACF]

:soapbox:l have two words for that HORSE SHIT! My cousins wife needs a heart transplant..... Obviously US healthcare will not pay for it and she has no insurance because she is "here" illegaly so we make a mad dash to take her to her family in Canada thinking that their healthcare will help her get her heart transplant being that she is a Canadian citizen and the great healthcare system . Nope but they are going to perform surgery on her cataracts.......:019: Can't figure that one out

Well...it is illegal to buy an organ.

Like anywhere...you get put on a list... if one becomes available you get lucky.

It's not like they have fridges full of them.

Sorry to hear your story.

All the more proof that a single payor system is good...what would happen if the heart was available and you had no insurance...or...where denied because of some little glitch within your policy.

[FORD]

After Weeks of Delays, Republicans Release Controversial "Single Prayer" Healthcare Plan
August 01, 2009 09:58 PM EDT



Washington, D.C. - Citing a growing impatience amongst their constituency, House Republicans have released their long awaited alternative to the Democratic Healthcare Bill. Utilizing the power of prayer, H.R. 777, dubbed the "Single Prayer" Plan, is likely to cause quite a stir inside the beltway

Under the new plan, American Citizens would spend between 15 and 30 minutes daily praying for the country's infirmed. House Minority Leader John Boehner was amongst the first of Representatives to tout what he perceives as the merits of the bill; "It seems like a no brainer to me." he said, "In the past six months, we've seen this country engage in a rapid decline into Godless communism. We're not going to fix healthcare in this country by continuing the course we're on. Rather, we need to exploit the most powerful and underutilized resource this country has, prayer, in order to heal the nation's sick." New Congressman John Fleming, MD (R, La.) lent some of his credibility as a longtime family physician "The healing power of prayer is not only documented many times in the Bible, but has even been proven by science as having concrete medical benefits. So whether you go by the democrat god of science, or the Real Republican God™, you have to admit that prayer works."

Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann also lauded the plan; "I, as well as all the wonderful people of Minnesota, applaud this bill as not only a way of helping Americans remove themselves from the tyranny of high health care costs, but as a way of bringing God back into a country that has forsaken Him for far too long. If Christianity was good enough for all of this country's founding fathers, it should be good enough for us.

When it was suggested that perhaps not all of the country's founding fathers were Christian, Representative Bachman became combative; "You're one of those Godless liberals, aren't you?" Bachmann demanded, "Once my HOORAA bill becomes law, people like you won't be able to walk the streets without facing the scorn you so rightly deserve!" HOORAA or Helping Out by Ostracizing and Resenting Atheists and Agnostics, would require those who have a non-belief in God or are on the fence with regard to their belief in God, to receive several brands on parts of their body, at least one of which must be on prominent display at all times while out in public. The bill is currently in committee.

Anticipating a great amount of confusion regarding the details of the House bill, Representative and part-time theologian Spencer Bachus brought out a large cardboard panel to explain further how the bill would provide cost effective, even free medical services to the country's sick; "As you can clearly see by this chart my dear grandson helped me make with his wondrous electronic answer box, while even the smallest prayers are answered in some respect by the Lord Almighty, as the amount of active and simultaneous prayers are increased, the healing power increases quadratically. So much so that by the point you reach 100 simultaneous prayers, inflictions even as terrible as homosexuality or liberalism can easily be cured." Communications with Representative Bachus's grandson revealed the referenced box to be an 18 month old laptop with Microsoft's popular Powerpoint presentation software.

Not all House members, however, expressed the same amount of optimism regarding the efficacy of H.R. 777. Ohio's 10th District Representative Dennis Kucinich expressed his reluctance to support such a bill on the House floor; "While I deeply respect the religious views of the House members who have crafted this bill, I don't feel confident that prayer alone can solve the nation's healthcare crisis. As a supplemental bill, I could see myself getting behind this. But for the millions of this country's poor and uninsured, traditional western medicine and therapy will be required, and unfortunately, that will require large amounts of money and not just prayer alone." Missouri Representative Roy Blunt shot back out of turn; "I'd expect to hear nothing less from a Godless vegan like Representative Kucinich." Kucinich, a long time Catholic, simply responded with a puzzled stare.

Still others wonder how a bill such as H.R. 777 could be enforced equitably if even at all. An anonymous congressional page noted "I don't see how a bill like this is enforceable in the least. I mean, even if they managed to mandate the 15 to 30 minutes of prayer a day through some kind of God Czar, how could they be sure that those praying are actually praying for the health of U.S. citizens? What if they instead choose to pray for an end to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? What if they choose to pray for world peace?" When presented with the conundrum, House Leader Boehner responded "While it may never be possible to determine precisely what the citizens under this plan are praying for, God will know. And my God is not one to be mocked." Boehner added "God Czar, huh? I like that!"

Atheists and Agnostic groups have predictably responded less than favorably to the bill. Co-Founder of the atheist activist group Rational Response Squad, Brian Sapient had this to say; "While frankly I think it's silly to have to address a bill as silly as H.R. 777, I believe its passage would be disastrous in terms of turning a country that is already overly reliant on religion, into one that is even closer towards becoming a theocracy. If prayer is so effective, why is it that God has never once provided an amputee with his or her limbs back? While modern medical advances are far from perfect, it is man and technology that has provided increased mobility to the many thousands of veterans who have lost limbs in service to this country, not God."

Former Governor and current MILF Sarah Palin immediately held a press conference to combat the statement by the drive-by media member; "While God is all-knowing and all powerful, he reserves his tremendous gifts only for the deserving. If your prayers toward God go unanswered, there's a darn good reason for it.(Palin winks awkwardly) You betcha!" The comment immediately stirred the members of the media in the presser. One unknown journalist commented; "You're not actually saying that the men and women of the U.S. military who have sacrificed one or more limbs on the battlefield are actually deserving of their condition, are you?!" Palin only responded by saying "They know what they did."

Senate Democrats face the bill with the unusual position of being in a strong majority, yet strongly encouraged to moderate their legislation to appease the Republican minority. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid had this to say; "I'm very much looking forward to seeing a finished H.R. 777. While the bill doesn't seem perfect as of yet, I'm confident that through reconciliation, we should able to make this a bill that benefits all citizens." Democratic Senator and chairman of the Senate Finance Committee Max Baucus expressed similar enthusiasm for the bill; "While there is much to like in this bill, I'd very much like to see more be done to help with the nation's most needy." Baucus then promptly invited the nation's top pharmaceutical groups representatives to a closed door session to determine just how the needy could further benefit from the bill. Less than a half an hour later, Baucus exited the conference room and promptly called for another presser. Pulling a handkerchief from his jacket pocket, Baucus quickly wiped off his chin before stepping to the podium; "I have long advocated for a more Godly healthcare system in this country. And with as many merits as H.R. 777 has, it doesn't go far enough. For many decades, this country's pharmaceutical corporations, HMOs and health insurance corporations have given selflessly to ensure the public good. With the passage of H.R. 777, they'll be able to do their job even more effectively. But it wouldn't be fair to them for us to expect so much more of them without them getting a little something in return. That's why I'm proposing 'Cap and Pray'. You see, there is plenty of evidence that due to their intense knowledge of the healthcare system, the prayers of these saintly health insurers, HMOs and pharmaceutical corporations members are doubly, perhaps even triply as effective as the prayers of common folk. That's why we need their prayers more than ever. I have proposed that for each additional prayer man hour expended over the course of a year, these corporations will receive a one thousand dollar tax deduction. Of course we understand that CEOs don't always have time for prayers due to their steadfast work in guiding their companies through these tumultuous economic times, that's why we've allowed their employees to pick up the slack. If you have 100 employees and they each manage a meager 10 hours of additional prayer over the course of the year, that's a million dollar tax reduction right there."

Confident that House Democrats would be able to reach a deal soon on the House bill, House Leader Nancy Pelosi grabbed the hands of Harry Reid and Max Baucus and raised them triumphantly. "For years I've been trying to rub off this seemingly indelible label I've had as a Godless San Francisco liberal. With the passage of a Single Prayer healthcare system, not only will the country benefit greatly, but I'm sure that my Republican peers in the House will finally see me as I really am." Representative Bachmann shot back "That's exactly what I'd expect a Godless San Francisco liberal to say!" Pelosi smiled in return.

After Weeks of Delays, Republicans Release... | Gather (http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474977759459&grpId=3659174697254264)

[hideyoursheep]

If I post a single picture of a casualty of the war all the people that supported it get all pissy at me like I have done something wrong.

Why is that?

Is it a casualty of war, or a casualty of terrorism? Because the kid is dead doesn't automatically make it the fault of the right-wing Christians against abortion and stem cell research...it could have been a Sunni for all you know.

Post all the casualty of war pics you want. I just think it's tasteless sensationalism.

[hideyoursheep]

Remember everyone believes they are entiltled.
It will be fun to see when a person goes to ER for an injury.

Something like this.

Nurse: What brings you in tonight?
Unemployed person: i got hurt at my job.
Nurse: Where do you work?
Unemployed Person: Any corner i can.
Nurse looks surprised, but knows she shes this all the time now.

Nurse: So what happened?
unemployed Person: I got stabbed over a dime bag.


thanks obama.

You are soooo fucking stupid.

You ARE aware that if you are a victim of a violent crime, that the city in which you were attacked is responsible for the medical bills incurred for your injuries, and that OBAMA had nothing to do with that?

You need to :sign0090: and get both feet out of your mouth.

Imbecile.

[Angel]

:soapbox:l have two words for that HORSE SHIT! My cousins wife needs a heart transplant..... Obviously US healthcare will not pay for it and she has no insurance because she is "here" illegaly so we make a mad dash to take her to her family in Canada thinking that their healthcare will help her get her heart transplant being that she is a Canadian citizen and the great healthcare system . Nope but they are going to perform surgery on her cataracts.......:019: Can't figure that one out

If she's not a resident of the country, she doesn't have the medical coverage. Pretty fucking simple. You have to live in a province for 3 months before you can have coverage in that province.

Our healthplan is for those who actually LIVE here. She's lucky she's getting the cataract surgery, I'm not sure how she even managed that one.

If I was to move out of Canada (never happen), I'd at least have the brains to know that I would need health insurance.

[ELVIS]

Yeah, to pay for your brain transplant...

[ELVIS]

So you are against the war now?

If I post a single picture of a casualty of the war all the people that supported it get all pissy at me like I have done something wrong.

Why is that?

Yes I am, but i'm not pissy...

People can actually change their minds, you know...

I've admitted I was wrong about supporting the was(s) several times...

[ELVIS]

To be honest I think you need to prepare yourself for the fact she's probably fucked...

Nice to see you choose your words so delicately...

[Nickdfresh]

Is it a casualty of war, or a casualty of terrorism? Because the kid is dead doesn't automatically make it the fault of the right-wing Christians against abortion and stem cell research...it could have been a Sunni for all you know.

Post all the casualty of war pics you want. I just think it's tasteless sensationalism.

Nevertheless, the United States invaded Iraq and set forth a cataclysm that killed 600,000+ Iraqis. Not directly necessarily, but the security meltdown caused by the rapid destruction of Iraq security forces and the subsequent societal breakdown is partially the US' fault...

[Big Train]

I came across this and I found it very interesting. This list isn't meant to bash on other countries, but to just point out what is good about our current system.

Hoover Institution - Hoover Digest - Here&rsquo;s a Second Opinion (http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html)

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers, and academics beat the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes that their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. Before we turn to government as the solution, however, we should consider some unheralded facts about America’s health care system.

1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the United Kingdom and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit from statin drugs, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, are taking them. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons, and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

* Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).

* Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.

* More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).

* Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).

5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

This essay appeared on the website of the National Center for Policy Analysis on March 24, 2009. An earlier version was published in the Washington Times.

Scott W. Atlas is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor of radiology and chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical School.

[Baby's On Fire]

Dude, you're so intelligent, but seem so afraid of God, it's silly...

You are an absolutely great guy, but the the thought that you think the end of your earthly life is the end baffles me...

God is real! I know it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I pray you let down your guard and your incredibly analytical mind (I have that trait myself) and look at it with an innocent attitude...

It's not easy, I know, but dude, you're missing out...

And I wouldn't bother if I didn't care...


:)


Of course God is real. I saw him just today looking down from the clouds. He waved, and gave me a big old thumbs up and said "Hey Dude".

Plus, the Virgin Mary was seen in a stack of flap jacks. So how could anyone ever doubt?

[Baby's On Fire]

When the hospital is in it to make a profit...and the only way an insurance company makes money is by turning down some claims...I would say you are fucked.

There are many models in the world today.

Take them...look at them...and try to make the best one you can.

Who cares if every one pays into it but some reap more from it because...they got sick.

I hope to get through life without a tragic health condition...and I am happy to know my tax dollars help those that are.

....because it is only right to help our fellow countrymen/women when in need.


The lunatic right-wingers call that communism.

A moderate degree of Socialism is a very important element of true democracy. All for one and one for all. Isn't that what democracy really means?

The every-one-for-themseves (if you can afford it) in the US healthscare system is not democracy.

[Baby's On Fire]

Ignore that "thanks"... it was an accident. Because I'm calling bullshit on your post. As I'm sure our Canadian friends here will do the same.


Maybe Bandit thinks you can get a heart by popping some coins into a vending machine.

Organs-on-Demand. One hell of an idea. Who woulda thunk it?

[Baby's On Fire]

Is it a casualty of war, or a casualty of terrorism? Because the kid is dead doesn't automatically make it the fault of the right-wing Christians against abortion and stem cell research...it could have been a Sunni for all you know.

Post all the casualty of war pics you want. I just think it's tasteless sensationalism.

60 Minutes did a segment on this story. It was a US bomb that killed the little boy.

You know 60 Minutes? The most reputable news show ever?

Face it. Your beloved illegal and immoral war actually has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

[FORD]

Keith Olbermann steps up to the plate and hits a "bi-partisan" home run......

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[standin]

I tell ya'. Since letting my TV go, I DO miss watching Olbermann. I wish Hulu would get put him on lineup.

[VanHalener]

..."He tires too quickly. The other day, he was trying to draw water from a well and the small bucket almost pulled him into the well."...

Man we gotta ship some bottled water to that little motherphucker, STAT!:xmasunwrap2:

[Seshmeister]

Keith Olbermann steps up to the plate and hits a "bi-partisan" home run......

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That's all very good but why isn't the rest of the media screaming the same thing and why can't the US people see that their politicians are completely owned?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Not just the Republicans, he goes after the Blue Dogs as well...

DUPE....

[ELVIS]

I just watched that garbage...

What was his point ??

[Nickdfresh]

Dupe, already posted in this thread...

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Oopsie, sorry....

[Nickdfresh]

Oopsie, sorry....

Don't be. You're not going to fire me, are you? :biggrin:

[standin]

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[Va Beach VH Fan]

Don't be. You're not going to fire me, are you? :biggrin:

I'll let it slide this time... ;)

[Big Train]

It's 10 mins of "you disagree with me and took money from people I disagree with". Not Olby's finest work in my opinion.

Quoting campaign contribution numbers, quite small in the overall scheme of their total collections, and using that as the basis for the argument, with no other meaningful followup, isn't the best.

It would have been more effective if he hadn't pulled his "how dare you sir" schtick (which is up there with Michael Moore's Bassett hound "Isn't this a shame" schtick) and actually added more substance to his argument.

[FORD]

It's 10 mins of "you disagree with me and took money from people I disagree with". Not Olby's finest work in my opinion.

Quoting campaign contribution numbers, quite small in the overall scheme of their total collections, and using that as the basis for the argument, with no other meaningful followup, isn't the best.

It would have been more effective if he hadn't pulled his "how dare you sir" schtick (which is up there with Michael Moore's Bassett hound "Isn't this a shame" schtick) and actually added more substance to his argument.

I thought the substance of his argument was rather obvious.

1) Health care is a major crisis in this country.

2) Congress could solve the problem, but refuses to do so because...

3) So many of them are too busy doing for insurance corporations what Monica Lewinsky did for Bill Clinton. :blow:

[Sucker of Satan's Penis]

Yeah...

Obama's leadership in healthcare reform, although he admittedly has not read the bill...


Hey just shut the fuck up about my Messenger, Buraq.

I am Allah, just STFU.. he is my King from the South from the loins of his Kenyan father, as predicated in your Book and all he's gonna do is wreck your government for a takeover by the EU.

Buraq is *AAAAA* okay, in my Buq. So just SHUT thee Fuq Up!

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You can call me Al if you like..

[Sucker of Satan's Penis]

1) Health care is a major crisis in this country.

That's a lie, being without insurance is not a crisis.

Every emergency room filled to overflowing is a crisis, INFIDEL

[thome]

Coming SOON! To a world near YOU!!!

Cash for Clunker People!!

Dateline 2019....... We spent trillions, the stimulus of our new "AmeriWorldHealth" care system, and now we need YOU to get to the closest hospital and get your arm cut off for america.

We will be giving you $4500 toward your BRAND NEW CAR I mean brand new!! Prosthetic Arm!!!

We have bailed them out this far, lets make sure we protect our tax dollars!!

LIMBS FOR STIMULUS!!!

I want to go on record with this statement.

[FORD]

You can call me Al if you like..

How about I call you a douchebag, GAyR?

[Sucker of Satan's Penis]

You did not receive permission to address Allah like a DIQ
HEAD!

One (1) groan for you, Son of Whore..

[FORD]

Your new alias sucks even worse than Blumpkin Chump.

[Sucker of Satan's Penis]

you take that back

[Blackflag]

Your new alias sucks even worse than Blumpkin Chump.

Dude, look in a mirror.

[FORD]

Funniest thing about this latest lame alias, is that you probably couldn't even find Mecca on a map.

[houseofpain]

Okay, being the guy here with 15 years experience in healthcare, I'm going to start tell everyone one time why I think its wrong.

1) What's the incentive for the docs? Or for that matter, the kids thinking about medschool? I mean, in all seriousness, 90% of these people are INFINITELY smarter than you and I, but what is the incentive to go into a speciality such as cardiology, orthopoedics, OB/GYN, neurology etc.? Why should I specialize when it has no value. And since I can't PRACTICE MEDICINE, but rather I have to do what a government agency tells me to do, why do I care?

2) You gotta staff those hospitals with a variety of ancillary staff. I pretty much hate nurses (glorified button pushers), but now why the hell would any of them consider nursing school since they are no longer patient advocates.

3) The stuff with the elderly...everybody is fucked up on this. Youthanasia is pretty fucking illegal in this country, so why does the government get to play God? Especially since they won't let God in anything else, unless his name is Allah...Guys, I agree, there's something to be said for quality of life and productivity to society. Here's what's really fucked up. Social Security was always intended to be used by the old and paid for by the young. Nobody just thought preventative medicine would help people live to 90 on a regular basis. But why the fuck do I care, I'm 36, I got about 30 good years left if my family history indicates anything.

4) Here's a scenario that's going to fuck you up so try to stay with it, I'm going to be across the board:

1999 - 46 year old White male, non-smoker, private insurance (HMO), comes in to the ER complaining on shortness of breath. On ECG its revealed he has a widened QRS Complex (suggests heart failure) and is bradycardiac (slow rhythm). He is sent to the cardiac cath lab, where on catheterization, its revealed that he has blockage in all 3 major coronary arteries, and 2 of the minor branches, and an ejection fraction of 23. Patient is very obviously in congestive heart failure, and at risk for sudden death syndrome. He needs to recieve Cardiac Re-Synchronization Therapy (bi-ventricular defib I will reference this later) to cure the CHF before he can be stable enough to be bypassed. Everything goes off as planned, and the patient is doing well 8 weeks post CRT/6 weeks post quintuple bypass surgery.

headed to the future, 2005: Needs to have the Bi-ventricular defib replaced to continue receiving CRT. Pay attention class...the bi-v defib's battery typically needs to be replaced every 7 years, 5 if the patient's co-morbidities make it more active. BUT everytime you open that pocket up, the risk of infection goes up. Nevertheless, they do it in 2005, the patient tolerates it well, and somehow manages not to present himself with an infection.

headed to the future again 2011: Patient needs to have the battery replaced again. Universal Healthcare Plan tells the doctor which brand to use, which model to use, what day of the week to do the procedure. A) they're going to say use the cheapest, not the best brand, then they are going to say use the cheapest model as well. Guys I'm talking about a life saving device that I hope none of you or your families ever have to deal with. But because they've told us we're going to use a cheap brand, the patient is coming back sooner, and they told us to use the cheapest model, so now that 5-7 years is now 3-4 years. And oh, by the way, the patient had to wait 18 months to get the new battery, the old one was dead for 9 months, and CHF had set in again and we have to nurse the guy back to productivity, which screws the system to the tune of about $175,000 per patient, per time. But Lord forbid we let the doctor practice medicine, and here's a new twist, we're not even considering preventative medicine any more.

It gets better, 2013, the electrophysiologic cardiologist who implanted the devices discovers that his patient is running an unexplained fever. Why? Because in 20011, the doctor had the pocket opened too long because of all the hoops he had to jump through to get the patient on the table, and for the 4th off brand pacer company to find their cheap model (and here's where it really affects me) and one of their 8 reps that covers the whole fucking country, and the Phillipinnes (don't laugh, this will be true) couldn't get their shit together quick enough to close the pocket, and remember, everytime we open it up, the patient is at a higher risk for developing an infection. So now we have to get the bi-v defib, the atrial lead, the right ventricular lead, and the left ventricular lead out, because the infected pocket is just growing shit that crawls down those leads into the heart and the gold standard therapy is call the laser rep, lets reopen the pocket (which smells great by the way with all this shit baking in there), get a lead locking device on all 3 of those leads, and pass the laser catheter over all 3 leads to ablate the leads away from the scar tissue so you can pull them out. Send the leads and bi-v defib to patholgy to be cultured, drop lots of antibiotics into the pocket directly, sew it up, admit the patient to the hospital and treat with 5-10 days of antibiotic therapy. BUT WAIT!!!!!! Universal Healthcare isn't a fan of the laser because the one company that makes it (Spectranetics) does not budge on pricing, and also does not, nor will not contribute to a healthcare lobby. They say, you need to find a differeent way to treat that patient. WAIT A FUCKING SECOND! I thought the doctor got paid to practice medicine not the fucking washington suits?

You laugh, you think I'm nuts. Healthcare is 1/7th of the U.S. Economy. If there is no incentive to practice medicine, there is no incentive for my company to invest in R&D, and there's no incentive to cure rather than treat patients. Why the fuck do you think healthcare powerhouses like Columbia went out of business? You can't take a bunch of businessmen and put them in a room and let them decide what the best way to practice medicine is. That's why Columbia went belly up. And the best part is Columbia basically turned into 3 different companies, that all are buying hospitals and their business models look exactly like Columbia's. I hope those hospitals are looking forward to committing fraud because that is what's coming. Guys, Americans don't go to Canada, France, NewZealand, Or England to have procedures done. However, Canadiens, French pussies, New Zealanders, and the Brits come here. Because we have the best healthcare in the world. And lots of American docs go to third world countries on medical missions. You might as well count on that being gone too. They won't be able to get suture and sponges, let alone anti-biotics.

No Doubt it needs reformed, but universal healthcare isn't the answer.

[houseofpain]

and no, I don't work for Spectranetics. I am a sales rep as most of you know. I'll not tell you the company, but given my history ad how many of you guys know me, its pretty safe to say I sell to cardiologists.

[FORD]

Healthcare reform, as its currently being discussed in this country, is about overhauling (or my preference would be eliminating) the corporate insurance system. The scenario you describe would seem to require a lot more than that (government owned hospitals, etc.)

It's the insurance companies now that refuse treatment, or try to force it on the cheap to maximize their profits. And it's also the insurance companies that create all the extra paperwork and "hoops you have to jump through to get the patient on the table".

And also, if more people can see a doctor on a regular basis, doctors & hospitals will eventually have to buy more equipment, so more sales for you!

[GAR]

Why is it cool for you to pay for an Iraqi doctors child to be killed yet you worry so much about some cells in an American whore?


It's cool because we're nipping the problem in the bud, from them growing up and blowing themselves up regardless of what happens if our military are there or not.

[GAR]

Healthcare reform, as its currently being discussed in this country, is about overhauling (or my preference would be eliminating) the corporate insurance system. The scenario you describe would seem to require a lot more than that (government owned hospitals, etc.)

It's the insurance companies now that refuse treatment, or try to force it on the cheap to maximize their profits. And it's also the insurance companies that create all the extra paperwork and "hoops you have to jump through to get the patient on the table".

And also, if more people can see a doctor on a regular basis, doctors & hospitals will eventually have to buy more equipment, so more sales for you!

You're so promiseblinded that you can't see what's going on regarding what's being called "healthcare reform" which is really "govt mandated health insurance."

For example, did you know that if you don't pay under the goverment's plan, you'll be penalized almost 4% and if you're an employer and don't sign up and diss your current plan, you'll be penalized almost twice that?

Can't you see Obama's been lying to you the whole time about not taxing those under 250K/ann. income?

Why won't you confess your boy fuckin' outright lied to the world in order to gain the oval office? Why FORD

[FORD]

You're so promiseblinded that you can't see what's going on regarding what's being called "healthcare reform" which is really "govt mandated health insurance."

For example, did you know that if you don't pay under the goverment's plan, you'll be penalized almost 4% and if you're an employer and don't sign up and diss your current plan, you'll be penalized almost twice that?



That's not the plan I'm talking about at all. That's the RomneyHillaryCare bullshit that people like Baucus and Schumer are trying force through under the name of "bipartisanship"

And if Obama signs a piece of shit like that, I'll be the first one to call him a fucking idiot for doing so. But he said he would veto any bill without a real public option, so we'll see........

[ELVIS]

It's the insurance companies now that refuse treatment, or try to force it on the cheap to maximize their profits. And it's also the insurance companies that create all the extra paperwork and "hoops you have to jump through to get the patient on the table".



So, you think under Oblamma care, this will somehow decrease ??

Tell me it ain't so...tell me it ain't so...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Nice post HOP, but nurses are NOT "glorified button pushers" at least not most, but in the defense of the ones that are, it's because of liability issues, and yes FORD, insurance companies are more concerned about documentation than actually delivering care...These problems are bound to multiply under Oblamma care...

And HOP, your statement of "everytime you open that pocket up, the risk of infection goes up" is a bit misleading. Sure, there's risk of infection with any surgical procedure, but replacing a pacemaker is pretty straightfoward these days. Now, replacing a pacer with a pre-infected piece of chinese garbage isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but the rest of your story is a fictional, worst case scenario. But I get your point and i'm totally with you...

BTW, Columbia went belly up because they had two sets of books. They were cheating the system in terms of billing insurance companies the costs of entire hospital floors being filled to capacity, when, in fact, they were EMPTY!

And I agree...

Universal healthcare isn't the answer, and it does need some reform. BUT NOT FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT!


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

And also, if more people can see a doctor on a regular basis, doctors & hospitals will eventually have to buy more equipment, so more sales for you!

With what money ??

[Big Train]

It's the insurance companies now that refuse treatment, or try to force it on the cheap to maximize their profits. And it's also the insurance companies that create all the extra paperwork and "hoops you have to jump through to get the patient on the table".

And also, if more people can see a doctor on a regular basis, doctors & hospitals will eventually have to buy more equipment, so more sales for you!

This is the core of where you and I differ. I don't make the assumption that they government won't deny care or do it "on the cheap". I actually assume they will and that I will have no choice to upgrade even if I have the money. I've seen government cheese, I've seen government motors, I've seen government assisted living and I've seen some government hosptials (VA). None of those are pretty sights, nor would I wish that same entity to handle grandma's healthcare.

I double down on the idea that they would buy new gear. If anything, they will wait and wait and wait to buy new gear. Look at how we handle our other forms of infrastructure.

See my post above about our healthcare advantages now vs. other countries. I'm not willing to give that up.

Side question, do you advocate healthcare for ALL under this public option? For example, "Visitors" from another country? That is going to affect the math quite a bit. Would you deny them care?

[ELVIS]

Trying to confuse FORD with logic...again ??

[Seshmeister]

Okay, being the guy here with 15 years experience in healthcare, I'm going to start tell everyone one time why I think its wrong.

1) What's the incentive for the docs? Or for that matter, the kids thinking about medschool? I mean, in all seriousness, 90% of these people are INFINITELY smarter than you and I, but what is the incentive to go into a speciality such as cardiology, orthopoedics, OB/GYN, neurology etc.? Why should I specialize when it has no value. And since I can't PRACTICE MEDICINE, but rather I have to do what a government agency tells me to do, why do I care?

2) You gotta staff those hospitals with a variety of ancillary staff. I pretty much hate nurses (glorified button pushers), but now why the hell would any of them consider nursing school since they are no longer patient advocates.

3) The stuff with the elderly...everybody is fucked up on this. Youthanasia is pretty fucking illegal in this country, so why does the government get to play God? Especially since they won't let God in anything else, unless his name is Allah...Guys, I agree, there's something to be said for quality of life and productivity to society. Here's what's really fucked up. Social Security was always intended to be used by the old and paid for by the young. Nobody just thought preventative medicine would help people live to 90 on a regular basis. But why the fuck do I care, I'm 36, I got about 30 good years left if my family history indicates anything.

4) Here's a scenario that's going to fuck you up so try to stay with it, I'm going to be across the board:

1999 - 46 year old White male, non-smoker, private insurance (HMO), comes in to the ER complaining on shortness of breath. On ECG its revealed he has a widened QRS Complex (suggests heart failure) and is bradycardiac (slow rhythm). He is sent to the cardiac cath lab, where on catheterization, its revealed that he has blockage in all 3 major coronary arteries, and 2 of the minor branches, and an ejection fraction of 23. Patient is very obviously in congestive heart failure, and at risk for sudden death syndrome. He needs to recieve Cardiac Re-Synchronization Therapy (bi-ventricular defib I will reference this later) to cure the CHF before he can be stable enough to be bypassed. Everything goes off as planned, and the patient is doing well 8 weeks post CRT/6 weeks post quintuple bypass surgery.

headed to the future, 2005: Needs to have the Bi-ventricular defib replaced to continue receiving CRT. Pay attention class...the bi-v defib's battery typically needs to be replaced every 7 years, 5 if the patient's co-morbidities make it more active. BUT everytime you open that pocket up, the risk of infection goes up. Nevertheless, they do it in 2005, the patient tolerates it well, and somehow manages not to present himself with an infection.

headed to the future again 2011: Patient needs to have the battery replaced again. Universal Healthcare Plan tells the doctor which brand to use, which model to use, what day of the week to do the procedure. A) they're going to say use the cheapest, not the best brand, then they are going to say use the cheapest model as well. Guys I'm talking about a life saving device that I hope none of you or your families ever have to deal with. But because they've told us we're going to use a cheap brand, the patient is coming back sooner, and they told us to use the cheapest model, so now that 5-7 years is now 3-4 years. And oh, by the way, the patient had to wait 18 months to get the new battery, the old one was dead for 9 months, and CHF had set in again and we have to nurse the guy back to productivity, which screws the system to the tune of about $175,000 per patient, per time. But Lord forbid we let the doctor practice medicine, and here's a new twist, we're not even considering preventative medicine any more.

It gets better, 2013, the electrophysiologic cardiologist who implanted the devices discovers that his patient is running an unexplained fever. Why? Because in 20011, the doctor had the pocket opened too long because of all the hoops he had to jump through to get the patient on the table, and for the 4th off brand pacer company to find their cheap model (and here's where it really affects me) and one of their 8 reps that covers the whole fucking country, and the Phillipinnes (don't laugh, this will be true) couldn't get their shit together quick enough to close the pocket, and remember, everytime we open it up, the patient is at a higher risk for developing an infection. So now we have to get the bi-v defib, the atrial lead, the right ventricular lead, and the left ventricular lead out, because the infected pocket is just growing shit that crawls down those leads into the heart and the gold standard therapy is call the laser rep, lets reopen the pocket (which smells great by the way with all this shit baking in there), get a lead locking device on all 3 of those leads, and pass the laser catheter over all 3 leads to ablate the leads away from the scar tissue so you can pull them out. Send the leads and bi-v defib to patholgy to be cultured, drop lots of antibiotics into the pocket directly, sew it up, admit the patient to the hospital and treat with 5-10 days of antibiotic therapy. BUT WAIT!!!!!! Universal Healthcare isn't a fan of the laser because the one company that makes it (Spectranetics) does not budge on pricing, and also does not, nor will not contribute to a healthcare lobby. They say, you need to find a differeent way to treat that patient. WAIT A FUCKING SECOND! I thought the doctor got paid to practice medicine not the fucking washington suits?

You laugh, you think I'm nuts. Healthcare is 1/7th of the U.S. Economy. If there is no incentive to practice medicine, there is no incentive for my company to invest in R&D, and there's no incentive to cure rather than treat patients. Why the fuck do you think healthcare powerhouses like Columbia went out of business? You can't take a bunch of businessmen and put them in a room and let them decide what the best way to practice medicine is. That's why Columbia went belly up. And the best part is Columbia basically turned into 3 different companies, that all are buying hospitals and their business models look exactly like Columbia's. I hope those hospitals are looking forward to committing fraud because that is what's coming. Guys, Americans don't go to Canada, France, NewZealand, Or England to have procedures done. However, Canadiens, French pussies, New Zealanders, and the Brits come here. Because we have the best healthcare in the world. And lots of American docs go to third world countries on medical missions. You might as well count on that being gone too. They won't be able to get suture and sponges, let alone anti-biotics.

No Doubt it needs reformed, but universal healthcare isn't the answer.

This is such a crock of shit, you should get out more.

People won't become doctors? Like they don't become doctors in every other country? You hate nurses that's nice.

I don't know what the youth in Asia have to do with any of this... :) If it's something to do with provision then the whole point of universal healthcare is to stop the swindle of health insurance companies finding ways not to treat health care. You then cut and paste a scenario in order to try and show you know what you are talking about because it contains some clinical language.

Just to settle some crazy ideas you have about public health care at least in any system I've come across.

1) The clinician has automony on treatment. If you are worrying about 3rd rate equipment being used it doesn't happen.

a) Because that would be a waste of money
b) Because clinicians choose the devices used.

So in the case of your field in the UK all the latest devices are used mainly Medtronic or St Jude however I bet we pay less for them which is maybe where your real problem lies. Government can negotiate better rates for these companies because a universal health care provider is a very powerful customer. The doctor doesn't need to be involved in these issues though he just picks the device he wants. Often he won't even know how much it costs.

If new technology comes out which is in competition and clinicians decide to use it then that's what happens eg recently a lot of hospitals here are moving from Reveal Monitors to the St Jude implantable loop monitors.

You talk about hoops, how about the hoops of not being covered? If someone here needs the latest ICD device they get it whether they are rich or poor or black or white.

And finally I don't know who sold you this myth about people from all over the world traveling to the US for treatment but unless Ozzy falls down the stairs and lands on his kids this month I bet it's in the single digits.


Cheers!

:gulp:

[GAR]

Just to settle some crazy ideas you have about public health care at least in any system I've come across.

.. the inadequate one in the UK that's running destructive defecits, you mean?

[Va Beach VH Fan]

The White House has set up a "Reality Check" webpage for all the bubbas out there....

Get the facts about the stability and security you get from health insurance reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check (http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/?e=10&ref=text)

[ULTRAMAN VH]

The White House has set up a "Reality Check" webpage for all the bubbas out there....

Get the facts about the stability and security you get from health insurance reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check (http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/?e=10&ref=text)

A guy from Virginia calling concerned citizens bubbas, thats a hoot.:umm:

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Vancouver Island Health Authority to cut jobs, sell assets, hike fees to balance budget

The health authority is scrambling to avoid a budget shortfall of $45 million - about 3.1 per cent of its budget.

By Rob Shaw, Times ColonistJuly 16, 2009Comments (42)





The Vancouver Island Health Authority will cut jobs, sell land, increase fees and cap the number of elective surgeries as it grapples with a funding shortfall.

The cuts are outlined in a VIHA letter to staff and doctors yesterday. Similar letters were sent by the province's five other health authorities after their recent submission of budgets and financial statements to the provincial government.

VIHA runs hospitals and care centres on the Island. Despite $95 million in new provincial money this year, it is scrambling to avoid a shortfall of $45 million -- about 3.1 per cent of its budget. "One of the things we will attempt to do is not increase our wait times," said VIHA board chairman Jack Kreut. "We know how important that is to people."

However, VIHA is proposing to cut the rising number of non-emergency surgeries, called elective surgeries, to stay within last year's levels. That means people looking for such things as hernia and gallbladder surgery might face longer waits.

VIHA is also proposing to curb staff overtime, raise parking fees, and freeze spending for gardening and non-essential maintenance. Surplus land, such as property near Victoria General Hospital in View Royal, could be up for sale.

"These reductions will involve job losses, and are extremely difficult and unsettling for staff across our organization, but are necessary to ensure that every available dollar is put towards caring for patients," VIHA CEO Howard Waldner wrote to staff in yesterday's memo.

VIHA is one of the largest employers on the Island, with 17,000 employees. The number of lost jobs is unknown.

Waldner said it's possible some health-care facilities could be converted to urgent care centres, which handle cases like an emergency room but don't allow overnight stays. As well, Waldner's letter discussed transferring some acute-care beds to community services outside a hospital, and consolidating residential-care beds to supportive housing and group care.

VIHA had already announced cuts to travel and administrative services.

The B.C. government has budgeted $15.7 billion for health care this year, of which $8.9 billion goes directly to health authorities. Health Minister Kevin Falcon said health authority money transfers will increase 20 per cent over three years. The total health budget increases to $17.5 billion by 2011-12.

However, the province's six health authorities say that leaves shortfalls this year of around 3.5 per cent of their health budgets, or $360 million provincewide.

Normally, the provincial government steps up with extra cash. But the economic slump has pushed the province into a growing deficit. "We are in a situation right now where there is no more money, there is no question about it," Falcon said yesterday.

Falcon said he expects to create a financial penalty for CEOs and board chairmen unable to meet financial restrictions.

The shortfalls were hinted at in budget footnotes and draft service plans as far back as February. NDP health critic Adrian Dix said health authorities deliberately withheld final service plans until after the May 12 election so as not to embarrass the government and Premier Gordon Campbell.

"They knew it was coming before the election and they hid," said Dix. "There's a price to be paid. And unfortunately, that price won't be paid by Mr. Campbell and Mr. Falcon or others politically. It's going to be paid by people waiting for health care on Vancouver Island."

rfshaw@tc.canwest.com

&#169; Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Elective surgeries to be cut by 35 per cent during Olympics


By Jeff Lee, Vancouver SunJuly 15, 2009Comments (10)


METRO VANCOUVER - Upwards of 2,500 patients waiting for surgery for everything from blocked arteries to cancer to hernias will find their elective surgeries postponed during the 2010 Winter Olympics.

In a pair of decisions just now becoming public, the Vancouver Coastal and Fraser Health Authorities say they have decided to cut by 35 per cent the number of elective surgeries performed over a one-month period in February and March, 2010.

Most of the surgeries - 2,000 in all - were supposed to take place in the busy Fraser region that stretches from Burnaby to Hope. Another 450 or more were scheduled for the Vancouver Coastal authority, not including the Providence Health system that covers St. Paul's Hospital in Vancouver.

The decisions also come as the provincial health minister, Kevin Falcon, told the province's six health regions they are expected to cut $360 million from their operating budgets next year and hold the line on costs.

That dictate has led the Fraser and Vancouver authorities to indicate they will cut staff, raise fees and reduce services.

The health regions say the reduction in surgeries during the Olympics isn't directly related to the event but rather because of what is expected to be a combination of a busy flu season and less demand among patients for service. It will also allow some medical staff to volunteer for the Games, according to Arden Krystal, the vice-president of acute network for Fraser Health.

Krystal said a review of other Olympic cities show that at Games-time many people want to put "low-acuity" surgeries off.

"I think we need to remember that 65 per cent of our surgical capacity continues to run and that people who truly need surgery in that time will get it," she said.

Gavin Wilson, a spokesman for Vancouver Coastal, said the health authority is doing 6,000 more elective surgeries than two years ago and the reduction of 450 during the Games won't hurt health care.

Critics say the plan is nothing more than an attempt to save money at the expense of patient health.

NDP health critic Adrian Dix told reporters the Olympics is being used as an excuse for health authorities to cut services.

Krystal estimated the Olympic-period postponements will save Fraser Health $1-2 million. The authority plans to keep the estimated 60-120 surgical beds over the region's 12 sites open for medical services.

But Rick Baker, the head of Timely Medical Alternatives, a private health service brokerage that finds patients fast treatment in the United States, expects people won't accept the delays.

Baker said many of the so-called "elective" surgeries involve urgent medically-necessary interventions. He doesn't accept the health authorities' argument that peoples' health won't be put at risk.

"It really has nothing to do with the Olympics. I think some person in the health ministry was taking a shower and said "hey, I know how we can save some money, we'll cut elective surgeries during the Olympics". They'll use any way to cut elective surgeries to save money."

Baker isn't really complaining; he expects to be busy during the Olympics as patients who can't wait for surgery turn to his company for help.


jefflee@vancouversun.com

&#169; Copyright (c) The Vancouver Sun

[Baby's On Fire]

Sesh's point about people not going to the US for heatlcare procedures is spot on.

A lot of the holistic cancer treatment centres are in Mexico, because the FDA forces people to use pharmaceutical based treatment. It should be up to the patient to decide if he or she wants to go natural with treatment, not some drug-pushing doctor.

However, would any public healthcare plan allow alternative treatments? I have no idea.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

A guy from Virginia calling concerned citizens bubbas, thats a hoot.:umm:

Nice try, but I'm not from Virginia... Retired here for work after spending 20 years defending your freedom in the military....

[fryingdutchman]

Well...it looks like the Dems are suddenly against the concept of a dissenting opinion about the government's position.

Nancy Pelosi is apparently calling the protests "Un-American" in an Op-Ed piece in USA Today...

WASHINGTON — As supporters and opponents of overhauling the health care system try to shape public opinion at congressional town-hall-style meetings, both sides face a big complication: Public opinion on the issue is complex in ways that defy an easy Republican-Democratic divide.

Analysis of a recent USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds views on what priority to emphasize, how fast to act and what's important to protect vary and sometimes conflict depending on a person's age and region of the country, whether he or she has insurance, and is healthy or ailing.

Seniors are by far the most resistant to the idea of changing the current system — an opening for opponents who have focused on proposed cuts in Medicare spending and accusations about planning for "end-of-life" care. The idea of controlling insurance costs has broader support overall than expanding coverage for the uninsured, which has prompted the White House to begin describing its goal as "insurance reform."

Meanwhile, in an op-ed article in today's USA TODAY, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, both Democrats, decry what they call "un-American" tactics used to disrupt some congressional forums.

Ummmm....Nancy...

Isn't the right to a dissenting opinion one of the foundations of the country?

[jhale667]

Dissent is great, but the Healthcare-Industry planted "Astroturf" segment of the protesters has NO interest in a logical, civil discussion of the issue...they're out to SHUT DISCUSSION DOWN ENTIRELY, which is extremely Un-American.

[Seshmeister]

Sesh's point about people not going to the US for heatlcare procedures is spot on.

A lot of the holistic cancer treatment centres are in Mexico, because the FDA forces people to use pharmaceutical based treatment. It should be up to the patient to decide if he or she wants to go natural with treatment, not some drug-pushing doctor.

However, would any public healthcare plan allow alternative treatments? I have no idea.

Alternative medicine which is tested and shown to work is called medicine.

Why would you want public money to be pissed away and wasted on a bunch of conmen who lie to people in their most vinerable and desparate times in order to defraud them? The FDA is quite right.

Ludicrously until very recently some public money in the UK was wasted on homeopathy, might as well buy some magic beans...

[Big Train]

I'm not health care industry planted and i'm not seeing a lot of discussion period. In fact what i'm seeing is "this is best, let's hurry up and pass this while we have a supermajority", which is not all american in anyway.

[LoungeMachine]

UNTIL we have TRUE lobbying reform, and stop with the legalized bribery we have in congress, we will never have any actual CHANGE that benefits the American Taxpayer.

WALL STREET
BANKING
PHARMA
DEFENSE CONTRACTORS

THEY are the only real constituents congress give a shit about. Without them, they can't get re-elected.

:gulp:

We've privitized the US Government.....

[Baby's On Fire]

Alternative medicine which is tested and shown to work is called medicine.

Why would you want public money to be pissed away and wasted on a bunch of conmen who lie to people in their most vinerable and desparate times in order to defraud them? The FDA is quite right.

Ludicrously until very recently some public money in the UK was wasted on homeopathy, might as well buy some magic beans...


I have to disagree strongly. "Medicine" is synthetic chemicals created as derivatives of natural substances. All mand made chemicals are toxic, including so-called "medicine". That is what causes side effects...toxicity.

It is well-proven that many natural compounds can prevent and cure many diseases. However, that is a topic for a different thread.

I wasn't suggesting social healthcare should cover alternative remedies and homeopathy, as much as I believe in it. I was simply agreeing with you that it isn't quite true that people from around The World travel to the US for special healthcare. Certain operations, perhaps. But not for treatments.

But, if a patient chooses to pursue "alternative therapy" that should be his or her right. Why should only the drug comapnies be paid? Drug side effects are within the top 3 causes of death in the USA.........

[Seshmeister]

But, if a patient chooses to pursue "alternative therapy" that should be his or her right.

Because it doesn't work it shouldn't be paid for by everyone else.

Asprin comes from tree bark but can be proved to work so it is called medicine.

Homeopathy is nonsense 19th century pretend so it isn't called medicine.

[Blackflag]

All man made chemicals are toxic, including so-called "medicine".

?



But, if a patient chooses to pursue "alternative therapy" that should be his or her right.

Nobody's stopping you from pursuing your "alternative therapies" on your own...

[Baby's On Fire]

White willow bark existed during that period.

There are NO DRUGS ever or will be invented that aren't derivatives of natural compounds. The only reason for a pharmaceutical industry is that natural substances cannot be patented and therefore there is no way to charge astronomical rates.

And by the way, aspirin is not technically a drug or medicine. It is nothing more than ASA, standardized from white willow bark. The same way a vitmain is a standardized extract from a plant.

Aspirin is a natural compound. But that is another thread perhaps later.

In any event, the patient should ALWAYS be allowed to choose his or her "medicine". Why should it just be pharmaceuticals?

Subscription drugs are proven to kill people (via side effects, not just abuse) and yet the government allows them (forces them) to take drugs.........

Hypocrisy at it's most blatant.

[Baby's On Fire]

?


Nobody's stopping you from pursuing your "alternative therapies" on your own...

If you don't believe man made chemicals (including drugs) are all toxic, go do some research. Go read about evolution and the human genome. Or all you have to do is watch a drug company commercial, and watch the long list of side effects that occur. What do you think side effects are? They're your body reacting to the toxicity.


As for pursuing alternative therapies.....socialized healthcare prevents it except for doing so on one's own. And so does medical insurance covergae as well. Point is, THE PATIENT should decide what to use or not use, not the insurance company or health care provider.

Whether or not something "works" has nothing to do with it. It is the drug company stranglehold that forces the use of so-called medicine, and excludes natural remedies. Or maybe you think the drug companies really truly care about your health?




So if drugs are covered, why not alternative therapies, at the patient's choice?

I though that was democracy? A right to choose?

[Big Train]

True, but socialized healthcare prevents it. And so does insurance covergae as well. Point is, THE PATIENT should decide what to use or not use, not the insurance company or health care provider.

So if drugs are covered, why not alternative therapies, at the patient's choice?

I though that was democracy? A right to choose?

Well, in a capitalist society, an ins company could spring up and offer an "alt therapies" policy and cover all this sort of thing. But in Barry O's and Ford's world, NEVER. Single payer damnit!!

[Baby's On Fire]

I'll bet you the drug industry would try and squash that insurance company.

Here is a single example but a great example of the pharmaceutical indsutry KNOWING that natural compounds can prevent disease, and they are trying to not only stop it's use, but is trying to force the FDA to claim it is a drug, even though it is an entirely natural compound.

Pyridoxamine is an entirely natural compound occuring in food. Anyone can buy it as a supplement, just like you can vitamin C for example. (You can lresearch pyridoxamine if you don't believ it).

Now here is an excerpt of an article about the drug industry trying to force the FDA to claim it is a drug, even thoguh the FDA's own rules already agree it is NOT a drug and cannot be classified a drug under law....


The FDA’s Position
Kidney disease causes almost 500,000 Americans to require dialysis or a transplant.22 Diabetes is the leading cause of end-stage kidney disease.23 With today’s epidemic of type 2 diabetes, the market for a drug that protects against diabetic complications is huge.

Based on scientific data documenting its remarkable biologic effects, a drug company paid for studies to prove the efficacy of pyridoxamine in protecting against diabetic complications.

One of these studies showed that pyridoxamine slowed the rate of rise of a marker of kidney failure (creatinine) by 68% and improved certain parameters of kidney function in humans.24 This company spent about $100 million funding various pyridoxamine studies before it ran out of money.25 The FDA wants to protect pharmaceutical financial interests, even if pyridoxamine is never approved as a new drug. According to the FDA, pyridoxamine cannot be marketed as a dietary supplement because:

“pyridoxamine is authorized for investigation as a new drug for which substantial clinical investigations have been conducted and their existence made public…”21

The FDA’s twisted position is that if vitamin companies can offer low-cost pyridoxamine supplements, then there is no incentive for a drug company to invest hundreds of millions of dollars getting it approved as a prescription drug. Said differently, to protect the financial interests of a pharmaceutical company, the FDA is willing to deny every health-conscious American access to the life-saving benefits of pyridoxamine, which include preventing the very disease the drug company is seeking to have pyridoxamine approved to treat!

[Big Train]

Not really, they would be open for business, but it would be a small business, like pet ins. Too small to bother with for big companies.

One of the reasons drugs are so high risk is the FDA approval process, which is essentially an eloborate, "how many angles can this be sued from", as opposed to "how effective is this" type process. A lot of alt. therapies wouldn't pass either test based on their claims, although perhaps some would.

[Baby's On Fire]

The drug companies likely wouldn't get sued and would probably win.

They have the almight disclaimers and side effect warnings, some of which are literally sudden death.

They got all the angles covered.

No natural substance is gonna kill you or hurt you, provided you don't really overdo it. Water can even kill you if you drink too much.

Drug comapnies are in business to make money, NOT to cure you or prevent disease. Money is in sickness and prolonged life, and then death. There is very little money in prevention or God forbid a real cure.

No magic pill is gonna cure a disease. But natural compounds in combinatioins can, provided they are used long-term and to the exclusion of things causing the disease.

Example: it is a proven and verifiable fact that curcumin (turmeric extract) can stop and reverse colon cancer.

Look it up yourself if you don't believe me.

The drug companies DO NOT want this type of information to get out to the general public, and use the FDA to bully anyone touting claims on the health benefits of anything.

A few years ago, the FDA literally raided cherry orchards for saying nothing more than cherries are good for you.

[Seshmeister]

The drug companies likely wouldn't get sued and would probably win.

They have the almight disclaimers and side effect warnings, some of which are literally sudden death.

They got all the angles covered.

No natural substance is gonna kill you or hurt you, provided you don't really overdo it. Water can even kill you if you drink too much.


I don't hold with this 'natural=good' 'man made=bad' ethos. I see it a lot and I can see the comfort in it's simplicity but there are lots of things out there that are 'natural' that will kill you. Snake venom, arsenic, nightshade, wedding cake etc etc.

Living beyond 40 isn't really natural for humans.

What could be more natural than childbirth and look how dangerous that was to mothers before we had modern medicine.

Also if you are going to go 'natural' that should really mean no dairy products since we only developed tolerence to them about 15000 years ago.

Everyone should be completely free to do whatever they like if it doesn't harm others but you can't have publically funded alternative medicine if there is no proof that it works. There has to be empirical proof of the efficacy of a treatment whether it be a modern drug or rubbing a crystal on your nuts.

[Baby's On Fire]

I wasn't talking about snake venom.

But arsenic is an essential nutrient for humans, just in miniscule amounts obtained in food. There is arsenic in apples....and wedding cake isn't natural.

Sesh, I do believe today you are talking out of your ass.

It's simple, any made made chemical is toxic to the human genome. Humans have not evolved to adapt to any of it. And by the way dairy is still toxic to humans. Despite the bullshit marketing of the milk industry. And milk is also BAD for your bones, because it's incredibly acidic inside the body, which causes boines to release minerals to neutralize the acidic blood.

It takes hundreds-of-thousands of years for the human genome to adapt. Even the great Stephen Hawking has stated that humans are the same at the genome level we were 150, 000 years ago.

[Blackflag]

If you don't believe man made chemicals (including drugs) are all toxic, go do some research.

Hershey's chocolate is man made. And that's good enough for me.




As for pursuing alternative therapies.....socialized healthcare prevents it except for doing so on one's own.

So go do it on your own. What do you want, a fucking cookie? Are you really saying there should be no regulation over drugs? Any company can sell whatever they want, and your insurance company has to pay for it, too? Seriously?




Whether or not something "works" has nothing to do with it.

Uh... what??

[LoungeMachine]

...and wedding cake isn't natural.

.

It's actually fatal.

:gulp:

One bite and life is over.....

[Baby's On Fire]

I'm saying there are very little regulations over the drugs.

Any regulation has little to do with true public safety, because the drugs themselves are toxic.

Once again, the drug companies have total dominance over the FDA. Read the article I posted.

Regulation has nothing to do with your health; it's all about protecting the drug companies' patents and making it appear as though the drugs are safe.

They are not safe. If they were safe there wouldn't be such severe side effects. Just watch the next drug commercial on CNN, and be in awe at the side effects rhymed off quickly at the end. No joke,. I remember a PMS drug ad where the risks included sudden death! Advertised right on CNN. It's astonishing.

The reason for those side effects being rhymed off are for protection against lawsuits...

"Well, we TOLD YOU there was a risk of sudden death, but you still decided to take the drug. It's not our fault".

It's all a sham.

[Blackflag]

It's all a sham.

So don't take the drugs. Nobody's forcing you to, dickhead!

You act like somebody's holding you down and forcing you to take pharmaceuticals...while simultaneously preventing you from going and spending your $10 on powdered deer penis.

Nobody cares what you do, d-bag. Go for it.

[Seshmeister]

It's actually fatal.

:gulp:

One bite and life is over.....

I think our hippy friend missed it was a gag... :)

[Baby's On Fire]

You can't really be this dumb can you?

It must be the prescription drugs.

The idea of fact and debate is lost on you entirely.

Maybe you should take lots of prescription drugs. As many as possible like it's candy. Go ahead, it's perfectly safe. The drug companies and FDA said so.

Smoking is good for you too.

[Baby's On Fire]

I think our hippy friend missed it was a gag... :)

So being informed of health is being a hippy?

Sesh you're off today. You're soundling a little like Thome.

And no I didn't miss the joke.

[Blackflag]

You can't really be this dumb can you?

It must be the prescription drugs.

The idea of fact and debate is lost on you entirely.

Maybe you should take lots of prescription drugs. As many as possible like it's candy. Go ahead, it's perfectly safe. The drug companies and FDA said so.

Smoking is good for you too.

You're just pissed because everybody else isn't paying for your powdered penis.

Well, I won't pay for your cock fix. I won't do it!!

[Baby's On Fire]

I rest my case.........

[LoungeMachine]

You're soundling a little like Thome.



.

Uncalled for, and waaaay below the belt. :biggrin:

:gulp:

[Baby's On Fire]

All this talk of prescription drugs has caused me to lose all judgment.

Sesh I apologize. It's the drugs. Or maybe Blackflag's ignorance.

[Blackflag]

I have that effect on people.

[LoungeMachine]

I was gonna say.....

[Igosplut]

I have that effect on people.

You DO have a way of whipping the crowd into a frenzy, I will say that....

[LoungeMachine]

You DO have a way of whipping the crowd into a frenzy, I will say that....

Much like the big-headed mascot at a college football game.

Didn't make the team, but shows up to root them on anyway...

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

Much like the big-headed mascot at a college football game.

Didn't make the team, but shows up to root them on anyway...

:gulp:

That would be a good analogy...if you thought anybody here could ever actually make a team. This whole group is like the "team" from Old School.

And, thanks for your kind words, Igosplut.

[Seshmeister]

So being informed of health is being a hippy?


I can't agree that thinking that you should never take drugs because the drug companies make money is being informed.

If you wish to go against the odds and not take any drugs for anything ever then that's fine have fun with that. That's a choice.

But saying that the whole field of pharmacology is to create toxins to make money and its' all a con or that alternative therapies are more effective; that's not making a choice it's just being factually incorrect.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[FORD]

Sesh, you previously mentioned the fact that aspirin is made from tree bark but is an accepted "establishment" medical drug, because it has been proven to work.

True enough, but the question is, if a willow bark extract was discovered today, and proven effective at everything from curing headaches to blood thinning to reducing fever, wouldn't it be dismissed by the very same people who dismiss natural medicines today?

They dismiss them because they can't patent them and control the supply. This is why big pharma wants to keep marijuana illegal, despite its proven effectiveness in a number of medicinal applications. Because you can't patent a plant. (Though Monsanto is trying to change that, and they're now players in big pharma since they bought Searle a few years back)

From recent family experience, I can tell you that the medical establishment is trying to push patented poisons like Plavix for the exact same things that aspirin is known to handle as well or better, so even though it's a long established medicine, they still hate the fact that it can't be patented (since it comes from a tree and not from a test tube)

[Blackflag]

True enough, but the question is, if a willow bark extract was discovered today, and proven effective at everything from curing headaches to blood thinning to reducing fever, wouldn't it be dismissed by the very same people who dismiss natural medicines today?

They dismiss them because they can't patent them and control the supply.

It could be patented if it were discovered today. Aspirin was patented when it was first discovered.

wtf? :hee:

:alien:

[Baby's On Fire]

Aspirin was not patented. It was the standardization method that was patented, and the name Aspirin was probably TM. ASA is a natural compound and cannot be patented.

Other producers of ASA have devised their own extraction method, and sell it under different names. Aspirin is not a product, it is a brand name of a product.

Just like you can't patent a vitamin.

[Baby's On Fire]

Sesh, you previously mentioned the fact that aspirin is made from tree bark but is an accepted "establishment" medical drug, because it has been proven to work.

True enough, but the question is, if a willow bark extract was discovered today, and proven effective at everything from curing headaches to blood thinning to reducing fever, wouldn't it be dismissed by the very same people who dismiss natural medicines today?

They dismiss them because they can't patent them and control the supply. This is why big pharma wants to keep marijuana illegal, despite its proven effectiveness in a number of medicinal applications. Because you can't patent a plant. (Though Monsanto is trying to change that, and they're now players in big pharma since they bought Searle a few years back)

From recent family experience, I can tell you that the medical establishment is trying to push patented poisons like Plavix for the exact same things that aspirin is known to handle as well or better, so even though it's a long established medicine, they still hate the fact that it can't be patented (since it comes from a tree and not from a test tube)

Precisely.

Sesh I never said I don't take drugs because pharmaceutical make money off them. I don't take them because they're toxic.

FORD nailed it. Still today, the public doesn't accept that natural turmeric / curcumin has been proven to kill colon cancer. Yet in 10 years time, when some witch doctor at a pharmaceutical company patents a derivative drug of turmeric that does the same thing, suddenly the general public will accept it.

Aspirin is the perfect example.

Human beings cannot improve on Nature. And they never will.

[FORD]

So curry is medicinal too? Great news, I love Thai food!

[Blackflag]

Aspirin was not patented. It was the standardization method that was patented, and the name Aspirin was probably TM. ASA is a natural compound and cannot be patented.

Other producers of ASA have devised their own extraction method, and sell it under different names. Aspirin is not a product, it is a brand name of a product.

Just like you can't patent a vitamin.

Dude, don't be stupid. Aspirin was patented when it came out. Try and split hairs between the compound and the name...whatever. The bottom line is - if you wanted to buy an aspirin, you had to buy from the company that held the patent. I love how everybody's a knowitall on this forum.

:fucku:

[Baby's On Fire]

Read my post again, or get your interpreter to do it.

Aspirin is a brand name for ASA. ASA was NEVER patented and can never be patented.

[Baby's On Fire]

I can't believe I'm wasting my time with you on this, but here is one example. Notice how the patent description identifies it is a method of producing ASA solutions....not a patent on ASA itself:

US Patent 6306843 - Method for producing stable acetylsalicylic acid solutions. US Patent Issued on October 23, 2001. Estimated Patent Expiration Date: ...
Method for producing stable acetylsalicylic acid solutions - US Patent 6306843 Claims (http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6306843/claims.html) - Similar

[LoungeMachine]

Oh, Jesus H..... GOOGLE/CUT/PASTE


By Mary Bellis

Aspirin or acetylsalicylic acid, is a derivative of salicylic acid that is a mild, nonnarcotic analgesic useful in the relief of headache and muscle and joint aches. The drug works by inhibiting the production of prostaglandins, body chemicals that are necessary for blood clotting and which also sensitize nerve endings to pain.

The father of modern medicine was Hippocrates, who lived sometime between 460 B.C and 377 B.C. Hippocrates was left historical records of pain relief treatments, including the use of powder made from the bark and leaves of the willow tree to help heal headaches, pains and fevers.

By 1829, scientists discovered that it was the compound called salicin in willow plants which gave you the pain relief.

According to "From A Miracle Drug" written by Sophie Jourdier for the Royal Society of Chemistry: "It was not long before the active ingredient in willow bark was isolated; in 1828, Johann Buchner, professor of pharmacy at the University of Munich, isolated a tiny amount of bitter tasting yellow, needle-like crystals, which he called salicin. Two Italians, Brugnatelli and Fontana, had in fact already obtained salicin in 1826, but in a highly impure form. By 1829, [French chemist] Henri Leroux had improved the extraction procedure to obtain about 30g from 1.5kg of bark. In 1838, Raffaele Piria [an Italian chemist] then working at the Sorbonne in Paris, split salicin into a sugar and an aromatic component (salicylaldehyde) and converted the latter, by hydrolysis and oxidation, to an acid of crystallised colourless needles, which he named salicylic acid."

Henri Leroux had extracted salicin, in crystalline form for the first time, and Raffaele Piria succeeded in obtaining the salicylic acid in its pure state.

The problem was that salicylic acid was tough on stomachs and a means of 'buffering' the compound was searched for. The first person to do so was a French chemist named Charles Frederic Gerhardt. In 1853, Gerhardt neutralized salicylic acid by buffering it with sodium (sodium salicylate) and acetyl chloride, creating acetylsalicylic acid. Gerhardt's product worked but he had no desire to market it and abandoned his discovery.



In 1899, a German chemist named Felix Hoffmann, who worked for a German company called Bayer, rediscovered Gerhardt's formula. Felix Hoffmann made some of the formula and gave it to his father who was suffering from the pain of arthritis. With good results, Felix Hoffmann then convinced Bayer to market the new wonder drug. Aspirin was patented on February 27, 1900.

The folks at Bayer came up with the name Aspirin, it comes from the 'A" in acetyl chloride, the "spir" in spiraea ulmaria (the plant they derived the salicylic acid from) and the 'in' was a then familiar name ending for medicines.

Aspirin was first sold as a powder. In 1915, the first Aspirin tablets were made. Interestingly, Aspirin &#174; and Heroin &#174; were once trademarks belonging to Bayer. After Germany lost World War I, Bayer was forced to give up both trademarks as part of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

History of Aspirin (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blaspirin.htm)

[Blackflag]

"the United States disagreed, granting a patent to Hoffman and the Bayer Co. on Feb. 27, 1900 (Patent No. 644,077). This gave Bayer a monopoly from 1900 to 1917,"

Inventor of the Week: Archive (http://web.mit.edu/invent/iow/hoffman.html)

:hee:

[Dolemite!]

Sesh, I do believe today you are talking out of your ass.



I take issue with "today."

It's best to avoid medicine if possible. This was up somewhere today, doctors were saying tamiflu can be worse than the flu and was unneccessary for something that passes in a few days.

[Baby's On Fire]

ASPIRIN was patented. Not ASA. They are not the same thing.

Aspirin is product they named from their extraction method. Read it again:

The problem was that salicylic acid was tough on stomachs and a means of 'buffering' the compound was searched for. The first person to do so was a French chemist named Charles Frederic Gerhardt. In 1853, Gerhardt neutralized salicylic acid by buffering it with sodium (sodium salicylate) and acetyl chloride, creating acetylsalicylic acid. Gerhardt's product worked but he had no desire to market it and abandoned his discovery.

In 1899, a German chemist named Felix Hoffmann, who worked for a German company called Bayer, rediscovered Gerhardt's formula. Felix Hoffmann made some of the formula and gave it to his father who was suffering from the pain of arthritis. With good results, Felix Hoffmann then convinced Bayer to market the new wonder drug. Aspirin was patented on February 27, 1900.


There are other brands of ASA. Aspirin is one of them.

[Blackflag]

Look you ignorant slut... That was the only way to extract it at the time! So if you wanted to buy Aspirin, or ASA - or whatever the fuck you want to call it - you had to buy it from Bayer. Unless you could invent another way of extracting the compound, you weren't going to make it. Because only Bayer could make it.

Get it yet? In 1900, there was one brand on the shelf: Bayer. They had the patent on the one way known to man to make the fucking compound, moron.

[Baby's On Fire]

I take issue with "today."

It's best to avoid medicine if possible. This was up somewhere today, doctors were saying tamiflu can be worse than the flu and was unneccessary for something that passes in a few days.


Sesh's posts are usually brilliant. Maybe today he took too much medicine.

But you're right...even the ancient Greeks knew it "Let food be thy medicine".

Pills don't cure anything, they simply mask the symptoms.

[standin]

I'll bet you the drug industry would try and squash that insurance company.

Here is a single example but a great example of the pharmaceutical indsutry KNOWING that natural compounds can prevent disease, and they are trying to not only stop it's use, but is trying to force the FDA to claim it is a drug, even though it is an entirely natural compound.

Pyridoxamine is an entirely natural compound occuring in food. Anyone can buy it as a supplement, just like you can vitamin C for example. (You can lresearch pyridoxamine if you don't believ it).

Now here is an excerpt of an article about the drug industry trying to force the FDA to claim it is a drug, even thoguh the FDA's own rules already agree it is NOT a drug and cannot be classified a drug under law....


The FDA’s Position
Kidney disease causes almost 500,000 Americans to require dialysis or a transplant.22 Diabetes is the leading cause of end-stage kidney disease.23 With today’s epidemic of type 2 diabetes, the market for a drug that protects against diabetic complications is huge.

Based on scientific data documenting its remarkable biologic effects, a drug company paid for studies to prove the efficacy of pyridoxamine in protecting against diabetic complications.

One of these studies showed that pyridoxamine slowed the rate of rise of a marker of kidney failure (creatinine) by 68&#37; and improved certain parameters of kidney function in humans.24 This company spent about $100 million funding various pyridoxamine studies before it ran out of money.25 The FDA wants to protect pharmaceutical financial interests, even if pyridoxamine is never approved as a new drug. According to the FDA, pyridoxamine cannot be marketed as a dietary supplement because:

“pyridoxamine is authorized for investigation as a new drug for which substantial clinical investigations have been conducted and their existence made public…”21

The FDA’s twisted position is that if vitamin companies can offer low-cost pyridoxamine supplements, then there is no incentive for a drug company to invest hundreds of millions of dollars getting it approved as a prescription drug. Said differently, to protect the financial interests of a pharmaceutical company, the FDA is willing to deny every health-conscious American access to the life-saving benefits of pyridoxamine, which include preventing the very disease the drug company is seeking to have pyridoxamine approved to treat!

This is just a false statement. Pharmaceuticals do provide vitamins.
I take prescription folic acid and can buy it over the counter. Also multi-vitamins are available in prescription and over the counter.

I do understand what you are trying to say about taking a natural substance and creating a synthetic one . And I guess that really depends, would I want a synthetic derivative of a medicine if the natural product was rare, endangered or dangerous to obtain. Yes, I would rather the synthetic.

I would also rather get my vitamins through prescription BECAUSE of the higher regulated quality.

I will say, that the pharmaceutical companies have ethical issues if not corruption issues. I would compare it to the black mold seen after a flood of dirty water of a whole community. Some structures have to be condemned, some just stripped , others just cleaned with bleach.

The only question asked of me from doctors in communities that do not think of cost was, how did you survive infancy and childhood. But until doctors are allowed to PRACTICE medicine again, learned PRACTICES are not going to be available.

BTW, when you speak of much diabetes and much of colon cancer, these are brought on my lifestyles. That if people were going to the doctors on a regular basis, the doctor would give a prescription of lifestyle change*, and that does not come in a pill.
*And sometimes that would be find a better food source with higher nutrition unlike what we get in stores today



On a side note, one day structural engineering DNA and the genome can correct many genetic related illness or birth defects.

[Baby's On Fire]

Look you ignorant slut... That was the only way to extract it at the time! So if you wanted to buy Aspirin, or ASA - or whatever the fuck you want to call it - you had to buy it from Bayer. Unless you could invent another way of extracting the compound, you weren't going to make it. Because only Bayer could make it.

Get it yet? In 1900, there was one brand on the shelf: Bayer. They had the patent on the one way known to man to make the fucking compound, moron.

Exactly ONE BRAND.

A brand is not the same thing as a compound. That's like saying when vitamin C in a supplement form first came out, that it was patented. Maybe the extraction method was patented, but not the vitamin C itself.

They are not the same thing. Somebody else can come along with a different extraction method, and call it something else so they can sell it. That doesn't mean the vitamin C is patented.

[Blackflag]

Exactly ONE BRAND.


It's a distinction without a difference, asswipe. One "brand." One company. One manufacturer. Only one "entity" could produce the fucking shit. It's irrelevant what label you put on the fucking bottle, you ignorant fucking whore. If you wanted ASA in 1900, you bought it from that German company, because they were the only ones that could manufacture it. You fucking buttpirate.

[Baby's On Fire]

This is just a false statement. Pharmaceuticals do provide vitamins.
I take prescription folic acid and can buy it over the counter. Also multi-vitamins are available in prescription and over the counter.

I do understand what you are trying to say about taking a natural substance and creating a synthetic one . And I guess that really depends, would I want a synthetic derivative of a medicine if the natural product was rare, endangered or dangerous to obtain. Yes, I would rather the synthetic.

I would also rather get my vitamins through prescription BECAUSE of the higher regulated quality.

I will say, that the pharmaceutical companies have ethical issues if not corruption issues. I would compare it to the black mold seen after a flood of dirty water of a whole community. Some structures have to be condemned, some just stripped , others just cleaned with bleach.

The only question asked of me from doctors in communities that do not think of cost was, how did you survive infancy and childhood. But until doctors are allowed to PRACTICE medicine again, learned PRACTICES are not going to be available.

BTW, when you speak of much diabetes and much of colon cancer, these are brought on my lifestyles. That if people were going to the doctors on a regular basis, the doctor would give a prescription of lifestyle change*, and that does not come in a pill.
*And sometimes that would be find a better food source with higher nutrition unlike what we get in stores today



On a side note, one day structural engineering DNA and the genome can correct many genetic related illness or birth defects.


Well, let's differentiate pharmaceuticals from neutraceuticals.

Pharmaceuticals by definition are synthetic.

When I am arguing against pharmaceuticals, I'm referring to mand made derivatives of naturally occusing compounds.

We used Aspirin as a good example. ASA (which is the base of Aspirin) occurs naturally. Aspirin is the standardized form of ASA.

[Baby's On Fire]

The ASA itself was not patented.

The method of extracting it was patented. If the ASA was patented, that would have prohibited anyone else from devising any other extraction method from creating standardized ASA.

Which is not the case.

You'll never comprehend it.

By your logic, vitamin C would be patented. It isn't and can't be. Just because someone thought of a way to extract it first, it doesn't make the vitamin C itself patented.

That's enough from you. Eat some cookies and toxic milk, and go to bed.

[standin]

well, let's just say science and nature work together.


I still do not want to destroy endangered materials for my health when we can create them in the laboratory. And I still do not want people dieing to get ... lets just say ...drugs....


M'kay.

[Blackflag]

By your logic, vitamin C would be patented.

No, dipshit. But if I were the only one who knew how to make a pill out of Vitamin C, and I got the patent, everybody would have to buy their Vitamin C from me. I'm the only one who would be able to manufacture it and sell Vitamin C. Get it yet, homo?

[standin]

BTW,........................
cylinder shapes that roll, occur in nature also.....

Just sayin', boba.

[Seshmeister]

I take issue with "today."

It's best to avoid medicine if possible. This was up somewhere today, doctors were saying tamiflu can be worse than the flu and was unneccessary for something that passes in a few days.

Shush the adults are talking.

[Seshmeister]

Aspirin

Side effects and dangers

Overdose
Aspirin is very useful, but it has many side effects and therefore must be used carefully. Like most powerful drugs, an overdose of aspirin or salicylates can be fatal. If a child or adult takes an overdose of aspirin, induce vomiting to empty the unabsorbed medication from the stomach (if the person is still awake and conscious). Obtain emergency medical care right away.

Common side effects
The most common side effects of aspirin are heartburn and other symptoms of stomach irritation such as indigestion, pain, nausea, and vomiting. The stomach irritation may lead to bleeding from the stomach, which may cause black stools. These symptoms may be reduced by taking aspirin with meals, with an antacid, with a glass of milk, or by taking enteric-coated or timed-release aspirin. Also, it is best not to take aspirin with alcohol or coffee (or other beverages containing caffeine, such as tea or cocoa and many soft drinks). Alcohol and caffeine make the stomach more sensitive to irritation. The non aspirin salicylate preparations sometimes are less irritating to the stomach and may be substituted for aspirin by your doctor.

Other effects

A few people develop asthma, hay fever, nasal congestion, or hives from aspirin or NSAIDs. These people should never take aspirin, nor should people who have active stomach or duodenal ulcers. Anyone who has ever had a peptic ulcer should be very careful about taking aspirin because it can lead to a recurrence.

Aspirin is known to interfere with the action of the platelets (blood cells involved in clotting). As a result, some people who take a lot of aspirin experience easy bruising of the skin. Therefore, people who have major bleeding problems should not take aspirin. Also, keep in mind that aspirin should not be taken for 10-14 days before surgery (including surgery in the mouth) to avoid excessive bleeding during or after the operation.

High doses of salicylate may cause ringing in the ears and slight deafness. If these effects occur, reduce your dose and call your doctor for further instructions. Your physician may decide to check your blood aspirin level and may even ask you to tolerate these symptoms without cutting your dose. Sometimes, however, these symptoms indicate mild overdose, which could become more serious. This problem should be discussed carefully with your doctor.

Aspirin and NSAIDs sometimes affect the normal function of the kidneys, or they can cause fluid to accumulate in the body. If you have liver, kidney, or breast disease, get your doctor's advice before taking these drugs. If you begin to swell up, gain a lot of weight, or feel ill while taking one of these drugs, stop taking it immediately and contact your doctor.

Effects on children

Recent reports have said there could be a link between the use of aspirin and the development of Reye's syndrome. Reye's syndrome is a rare but possibly fatal disease seen most often in children and teenagers. It usually affects those recovering from chicken pox or a viral illness such as the flu. These reports have raised concern in pediatricians (doctors who specialize in treating children) and parents of children with arthritis who need to take large doses of aspirin to control their disease.

Presently, there is no conclusive proof showing how often Reye's syndrome occurs in children with arthritis who are or are not taking aspirin. Results from a survey of doctors who specialize in childhood arthritis and related diseases have not shown that children with arthritis who regularly take large doses of aspirin have a high risk of developing Reye's syndrome. There have been some reports of a few children with arthritis developing Reye's syndrome.

At present, there appears to be no reason to limit the use of aspirin in children with arthritis. However, if a child with arthritis who is taking aspirin develops symptoms of chicken pox, flu, or any viral illness that has fever as a symptom, the aspirin should be stopped. The child's doctor should be contacted right away.


All drugs have these crazy lists of side effects which don't happen 99.99&#37; of the cases. Taking them is a calculated risk and the person you expect to do the calculating and advise you is your doctor in conjunction with the pharmacist. That's much more sensible than either making blanket decisions not to take drugs ever or trying to work out whether to take them in particular case. Thats why we spend all these years training our clinicians. Also I have to say that in my experience the internet is really poor when it comes to medicine and often it tends to give the wrong impression to the lay person googling stuff because it isn't good at setting things in context.

We don't really have drug advertising over here so maybe we are arguing about different things. I'll very rarely even take an aspirin if I have a headache.

[Dolemite!]

Shush the adults are talking.


Farting perhaps.

I'm such a fucking moronic little pissant....

Please notice me.

[Seshmeister]

You are such a rude little boy, go to your room.

And no masturbating to 1980s Euro boybands up there...

[ULTRAMAN VH]

Government Medicine Kills
The U.K. and Canada prove it.

By Deroy Murdock


Imagine that your two best friends are British and Canadian tobacco addicts. The Brit battles lung cancer. The Canadian endures emphysema and wheezes as he walks around with clanging oxygen canisters. You probably would not think: “Maybe I should pick up smoking.”

The fact that America is even considering government medicine is equally wacky. The state guides health care for our two closest allies: Great Britain and Canada. Like us, these are prosperous, industrial, Anglophone democracies. Nevertheless, compared to America, they suffer higher death rates for diseases, their patients experience severe pain, and they ration medical services.

Look what you’re missing in the U.K.:

Breast cancer kills 25 percent of its American victims. In Great Britain, the Vatican of single-payer medicine, breast cancer extinguishes 46 percent of its targets.

Prostate cancer is fatal to 19 percent of its American patients. The National Center for Policy Analysis reports that it kills 57 percent of Britons it strikes.

Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development data show that the U.K.’s 2005 heart-attack fatality rate was 19.5 percent higher than America’s. This may correspond to angioplasties, which were only 21.3 percent as common there as here.

The U.K.’s National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) just announced plans to cut its 60,000 annual steroid injections for severe back-pain sufferers to just 3,000. This should save the government 33 million pounds (about $55 million). “The consequences of the NICE decision will be devastating for thousands of patients,” Dr. Jonathan Richardson of Bradford Hospitals Trust told London’s Daily Telegraph. “It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive, and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky, and has a 50 per cent failure rate.”

“Seriously ill patients are being kept in ambulances outside hospitals for hours so NHS trusts do not miss Government targets,” Daniel Martin wrote last year in London’s Daily Mail. “Thousands of people a year are having to wait outside accident and emergency departments because trusts will not let them in until they can treat them within four hours, in line with a Labour [party] pledge. The hold-ups mean ambulances are not available to answer fresh 911 calls. Doctors warned last night that the practice of ‘patient-stacking’ was putting patients’ health at risk.”

Things don’t look much better up north, under Canadian socialized medicine.

Canada has one-third fewer doctors per capita than the OECD average. “The doctor shortage is a direct result of government rationing, since provinces intervened to restrict class sizes in major Canadian medical schools in the 1990s,” Dr. David Gratzer, a Canadian physician and Manhattan Institute scholar, told the U.S. House Ways & Means Committee on June 24. Some towns address the doctor dearth with lotteries in which citizens compete for rare medical appointments.

“In 2008, the average Canadian waited 17.3 weeks from the time his general practitioner referred him to a specialist until he actually received treatment,” Pacific Research Institute president Sally Pipes, a Canadian native, wrote in the July 2 Investor’s Business Daily. “That’s 86 percent longer than the wait in 1993, when the [Fraser] Institute first started quantifying the problem.”

Such sloth includes a median 9.7-week wait for an MRI exam, 31.7 weeks to see a neurosurgeon, and 36.7 weeks — nearly nine months — to visit an orthopedic surgeon.

Thus, Canadian supreme court justice Marie Deschamps wrote in her 2005 majority opinion in Chaoulli v. Quebec, “This case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care.”


Obamacare proponents might argue that their health reforms are neither British nor Canadian, but just modest adjustments to America’s system. This is false. The public option — for which Democrats lust — would fuel an elephantine $1.5 trillion overhaul of this life-and-death industry. Having Uncle Sam in the room while negotiating drug prices and hospital reimbursement rates will be like sitting beside Warren Buffett at an art auction. Guess who goes home with the goodies?

A public option is just the opening bid for eventual nationalization of American medicine. As House Banking Committee chairman Barney Frank (D., Mass.) told SinglepayerAction.Org on July 27: “The best way we’re going to get single payer, the only way, is to have a public option to demonstrate its strength and its power.”

Barack Obama seconds that emotion.

“I don’t think we’re going to be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately,” Obama told a March 24, 2007 Service Employees International Union health-care forum. “There’s going to be potentially some transition process. I can envision [single payer] a decade out or 15 years out or 20 years out.” As he told the AFL-CIO in 2003: “I happen to be a proponent of single-payer, universal health-care coverage. . . . That’s what I’d like to see.”

And why a public option just for medicine? Wouldn’t government clothing stores be best suited to furnish the garments Americans need to survive each winter? And why not a public option for restaurants? Shouldn’t Americans have universal access to fine dining?

All kidding aside, government medicine has proved an excruciating disaster in the U.K. and Canada. Our allies’ experiences with this dreadful idea should horrify rather than inspire everyday Americans, not to mention seemingly blind Democratic politicians.

— Deroy Murdock is a columnist with the Scripps Howard News Service and a media fellow with the Hoover Institution on War, Revolution and Peace at Stanford University.