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Nickdfresh
08-19-2009, 11:09 AM
Health Care Hypocrisy
Many of the pundits attacking government health insurance rely on government health insurance for their own families.
By Daniel Gross
Posted Wednesday, Aug. 19, 2009, at 9:46 AM ET

You have to give Whole Foods CEO John Mackey credit for having the courage of his convictions. Last week, the libertarian penned an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal arguing that national health care was a step toward socialism and advocating a series of alternative steps—including healthier eating and high-deductible insurance policies of the type that Whole Foods employees are offered. A Whole Foods spokeswoman told me that Mackey "participates in the same plan that is offered to all of our Whole Foods Market team members," which includes a "combination of high-deductible health insurance and a Personal Wellness Account." (Whole Foods pays the premium for full-timers' health insurance and puts up to $1,800 into the savings accounts.) In Mackey's case, what's good for the free-range goose is good for the free-range gander.

The same can't be said for the legions of people you hear on television, or read in the op-ed pages, or chat with at weekend barbecues, raging about taxpayer-funded health care as an unworkable, inefficient, Orwellian evil.

This is a something of a Churchillian moment. Never before have so many known so little about so much. The meme that my Slate colleague Timothy Noah has been tracking about Medicare not being a government program has two sources: ignorance and mendacity. Some people may really not know that Medicare is taxpayer-funded health care. That's ignorance. Many more people know it—and know the degree to which taxpayers are already funding lots of health care for them and their loved ones—and argue otherwise. That's mendacity.

As we've noted before, if you add the failure of employer-linked health care with Medicare, Medicaid, government employment, and the military, a huge chunk of Americans already have taxpayer-funded health care. It's a diverse lot. Rich old people and poor kids, university professors, congressmen, teachers, DMV clerks and their families. Pretty much everybody you see on CNBC yelling about socialism? Their parents and grandparents (if they're still living) get taxpayer-funded health insurance. Mine do. Charles Grassley, the septuagenarian Iowan who is doing his darnedest to torpedo meaningful health care form, has it. Arthur Laffer, the 69-year-old economist who went on television and suggested that Medicare isn't a government health care program, is eligible for Medicare. Dick Armey, who spent many years teaching at a state university and served several terms in Congress, has had taxpayer-funded health insurance for much of his adult life. Same for Rudy Giuliani and Newt Gingrich. Democratic senators like Max Baucus, Kent Conrad, and Ben Nelson? Yes, yes, and yes. Law professors at the University of Tennessee have it. The employees of George Mason University, which houses the free-market Mercatus Center, do, too. Policy analyst Betsy McCaughey, currently reprising her 1990s role of health care bamboozler, will be eligible for it in a few years' time.

Obvious? Yes. But it's still worth pointing out. All these people rely on—or have relied on—the government to pick up the tab for their health care and for their health insurance. And that hasn't caused euthanasia or the abolition of private property. Funny how you don't hear any complaints from worthies about taxpayer-funded health insurance when it's covering them, their staffs, and their loved ones. For many of these people, especially the older ones, there literally is no affordable alternative. Insurance companies prefer to insure healthy people, not sick people—that's how they make money. And older people are more likely to run into health trouble requiring expensive care. Dick Armey, who is suing to get out from under the tyranny of Medicare, is apparently under the illusion that insurance companies are really eager to cover 69-year-old men at a low cost. House Minority Leader John Boehner is a 59-year-old smoker whose skin has an orange hue. What do you think Aetna would charge him per month for a good policy?

After the stock-research scandals of the 1990s, analysts were required to disclose whether they or their families owned stock in the companies they were talking about. That has since emerged as a key gauge of credibility. I'd like to see something similar for the health care debate. Before they weigh in on the prospects for health care reform, interview subjects—pundits, talking heads, policy wonks, editors, members of Congress—would have to disclose whether they or their family members rely on taxpayer-funded health insurance.

Such a disclosure might eat into valuable airtime. But it would clarify the debate. We're witnessing a conversation between various people who are dependent on taxpayer-funded health insurance telling the public why tens of millions of people shouldn't have access to it. Most of the opponents of universal health care don't really think the public provision of health insurance services is immoral, evil, or socialistic—after all, they'd be at risk of bankruptcy without it. And most aren't opposed to deficit spending as a matter of principle. (How do they think we're paying for the Medicare prescription drug entitlement the Republicans rammed through a few years ago?) In effect, they believe that taxpayer-funded health insurance is appropriate and crucial for some people—themselves, their staffs, their parents—but not for others; that some are entitled to it, and that others simply aren't. In Washington, unlike at Whole Foods, they want us to believe that what's good for the goose will poison the gander.
Daniel Gross is the Moneybox columnist for Slate and the business columnist for Newsweek. You can e-mail him at moneybox@slate.com and follow him on Twitter. His latest book, Dumb Money: How Our Greatest Financial Minds Bankrupted the Nation, has just been published in paperback.

Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/id/2225664/)

Nickdfresh
08-19-2009, 11:11 AM
Obama Endorses Socialized Medicine!
Wait till the hard right finds out.
By Timothy Noah
Posted Tuesday, Aug. 18, 2009, at 5:54 PM ET

The White House may be hedging on its insistence that health care reform contain a public option, but in an Aug. 17 speech, President Obama endorsed something far more radical: a scheme in which hospitals and doctors work directly for the government. A concept less "uniquely American" would be difficult to imagine. Yet this collectivist arrangement is already in place and has been in one form or another since 1811!

It falls to me to sound the klaxon because Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck are too fainthearted to criticize the president's enthusiasm for a plan even more socialistic than Canada's or France's dread single-payer systems. Indeed, when Obama last spring briefly considered a free-enterprise alternative, Limbaugh attacked him for being stingy!

"We're dramatically increasing funding for veterans health care," the president told a Veterans of Foreign Wars convention.

This includes hundreds of millions of dollars to serve veterans in rural areas, as well as the unique needs of our growing number of women veterans. We're restoring access to V.A. health care for a half-million veterans who lost their eligibility in recent years—our Priority 8 veterans.

Priority 8 veterans have injuries that aren't service-related. Some of these freeloaders have incomes approaching $40,000. And get this: They became eligible by working for the very same government on whose teat they now suck. Where's the outrage?

Obama continued:

And since there's been so much misinformation out there about health insurance reform, let me say this: One thing that reform won't change is veterans' health care. No one is going to take away your benefits—that is the plain and simple truth. [Applause.] We're expanding access to your health care, not reducing it. [Applause.]

You want to know what really burns my butt? The health care these veterans will receive has been certified by the New England Journal of Medicine, the Rand Corp., and the National Committee for Quality Assurance to exceed in quality the care available to paying customers in more authentically American private-sector fee-for-service hospitals. The VA hospital system's mere existence is an affront to everything true patriots hold dear. That it manages to offer an emphatically successful model for socialized medicine in the United States insults the very principles on which our republic was founded.

Quick, somebody tell Betsy McCaughey. This could be bigger than death panels.
Timothy Noah is a senior writer at Slate.

Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/id/2225618/)

ELVIS
08-19-2009, 12:11 PM
President Obama endorsed something far more radical: a scheme in which hospitals and doctors work directly for the government.

And get paid with what ??

jhale667
08-19-2009, 12:14 PM
And get paid with what ??

Wood and rocks, dummy.

ELVIS
08-19-2009, 12:24 PM
That's what I thought...

Thanks

Big Train
08-19-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm still waiting on these indisputable facts everyone is carrying on about...as far as I know everything but the kitchen sink has been proposed on and off.

When the administration gets their act, fact and message unified, perhaps a recognized set of facts will emerge.

Nickdfresh
08-19-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm still waiting on these indisputable facts everyone is carrying on about...as far as I know everything but the kitchen sink has been proposed on and off.

When the administration gets their act, fact and message unified, perhaps a recognized set of facts will emerge.

Um, it's mostly with Congress, and since the opposition is doing nothing but bulwarking against anything, the facts will come out soon. The GOP will marginalize itself by pandering to the extremist vote...

jhale667
08-19-2009, 11:49 PM
Teabaggers are ignorant on basic facts in general, as it turns out...here's why.

This is some scary shit right here, but certainly explains a lot.

YouTube - The Gap Between What Fox News Viewers Think Is True vs. What Really Is True (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05O3U_G_N4)

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/t05O3U_G_N4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/t05O3U_G_N4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Big Train
08-20-2009, 03:17 PM
Um, it's mostly with Congress, and since the opposition is doing nothing but bulwarking against anything, the facts will come out soon. The GOP will marginalize itself by pandering to the extremist vote...

I mean fuck, if that is the case, how is anyone out parading that they KNOW the facts, Congressional members and major "news" networks included?

jhale667
08-20-2009, 04:02 PM
I mean fuck, if that is the case, how is anyone out parading that they KNOW the facts, Congressional members and major "news" networks included?

We know for a fact the kill grandma/fund abortion/cover illegals stuff is all lies...

Big Train
08-20-2009, 04:17 PM
Except if they continue go to an emergency room, where they can't be denied. And their children...American citizens with no ability to pay...will also not be denied. But yea, complete lies and all..your right. Status quo maintained..

Health Care for Illegal Immigrants? 'Simply Not True,' Says Obama -- Politics Daily (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/20/health-care-for-illegal-immigrants-simply-not-true-says-oba/)

Callers to Michael Smerconish's radio show on Thursday fought through their nerves to ask President Obama about the nuts and bolts of health care reform and other issues.

With Smerconish and his crew set up in the Diplomatic Room of the White House, Obama took caller questions on everything from health care reform to cash for clunkers to the release of the Lockerbie bomber.

Smerconish led off the questioning, asking about the unprecedented expansion of government into several areas of the economy. Obama said he did not start the intervention into the banking or auto industries. "They were started by a conservative Republican administration." He said he felt government expansions this year have been necessary, and not ideological, adding, "On health insurance, I would love the private marketplace to handle this without government interference. The problem is it's not working."

When a caller asked about illegal immigrants under health care reform, Obama said the topic is one of many where misinformation has taken root. "This has been an example of just pure misinformation out there. None of the bills that have been voted on in Congress, and none of the proposals coming out of the White House propose giving coverage to illegal immigrants -- none of them," he said. "That has never been on the table; nobody has discussed it. So everybody who is listening out there, when you start hearing that somehow this is all designed to provide health insurance to illegal immigrants, that is simply not true and has never been the case."

Smerconish followed up by asking if illegal immigrants would still be treated at emergency rooms, as is often the case now. "That will continue," Obama said. He explained that if a child with tuberculosis goes to an ER, that child should be treated regardless of immigration status. "I think there is a basic standard of decency where if somebody is in a death situation or a severe illness, that we're going to provide them emergency care," he said. "But nobody has talked about providing health insurance to illegal immigrants. I want to make that absolutely clear."

The House bill, H.R. 3200, specifically excludes anyone who is not a "legal resident" of the United States from coverage of extended insurance provisions.

One caller, Joe, told the president, "I'm scared out of my mind talking to you," but then said he was frustrated by Obama's willingness to compromise with Republicans. "I'm getting a little ticked off; it feels like the knees are buckling," the caller said.

Obama told Joe, "I guarantee we're going to get health care done."

jhale667
08-20-2009, 04:23 PM
..your right.



My right to what?







Oh - missing contraction. :umm:

MUSICMANN
08-20-2009, 05:15 PM
Health reform really comes down to how much more is this gonna cost the american taxpayers. If you sit back and analyze the situation, is a government run health system the best option for this country.

You have the people that can afford a health policy, those that can't but really want to pay for one and then those that want to ride the government for everything it's worth.

I really do believe that everyone agrees that the health system needs working on. I don't believe it needs a total overhaul. Does the insurance companies need some restrictions set in place on continuous rising costs, yes they do.

Does the overcost of health care need to be made more affordable for everyone, yes it does. You have to look at few things that make the cost of health care rise each and everyday.

Let's take the illegal's that swamp the emergency rooms across this country everyday. How much do you think that costs the hospitals. How much does that take away from an american getting the help they need. They can walk into a hospital and get free health care and we pay for it and that in turns make the cost of health insurance go up.

Let's not also forget about the countless examples and stories of other countries who has a government run system, that in times runs short on funding and has to negelct treating people for lengths of time much longer that could have prevented all types of cancers or ailments.

We honestly have the best health care in the world. We don't need more government control. The system just needs tweaking, so to be more affordable and available to all americans.

jhale667
08-20-2009, 07:39 PM
We honestly have the best health care in the world. We don't need more government control. The system just needs tweaking, so to be more affordable and available to all americans.

We're 38th in the world actually, dude. Sorry. Look it up.

Never mind, here:

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)

Gonna argue with the World Health Org now? :umm:

Big Train
08-20-2009, 08:17 PM
My right to what?







Oh - missing contraction. :umm:

I guess we can debate spelling errors if that is all that is left to debate.

jhale667
08-20-2009, 08:21 PM
I guess we can debate spelling errors if that is all that is left to debate.

Hmm...for example, is that a spelling or a syntax error? ;)

standin
08-20-2009, 08:26 PM
:biggrin:

Big Train
08-20-2009, 08:49 PM
Yup you got me. Hasty responses will get you that.

I'm hoping someday you will graduate to being able to respond to logic questions.

jhale667
08-20-2009, 09:43 PM
Yup you got me. Hasty responses will get you that.

I'm hoping someday you will graduate to being able to respond to logic questions.

He said, as if I didn't, or don't....nice try. Sorry you must've mistaken me for ELVIS...(how did that happen?) :hee:

But yeah, keep hope alive there, sparky...! :tongue0011:

Big Train
08-20-2009, 10:10 PM
Not often enough. No mistake with Elvis either..

Since you won't debate actual issues, I guess I will have to keep hope alive champ...

mwsully
08-20-2009, 11:05 PM
I am sick and tired of some here saying how the "illegals" are causing so much financial problems in the U.S., from taking jobs to health care costs rising because of them!

Why the hell aren't the Hannity and Limbaugh fanatics more up-in-arms with the crooks who have totally milked us citizens of billions because of this financial crisis?

Point your fingers where the real injustice is happening and put your energies there. Not illegal immigration.

jhale667
08-20-2009, 11:07 PM
Not often enough. No mistake with Elvis either..

Since you won't debate actual issues, I guess I will have to keep hope alive champ...

What issue hadn't I been debating with you and everyone else here prior to your getting in a tizzy about the contraction joke, again? Let it go.
:tongue0011:

Seshmeister
08-20-2009, 11:08 PM
We're 38th in the world actually, dude. Sorry. Look it up.

Never mind, here:

The World Health Organization's ranking of the world's health systems (http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html)

Gonna argue with the World Health Org now? :umm:

And spending more than any other country to get that ranking.

People including me sometimes complain about how governments waste money but at the moment over 30&#37; of your private healthcare spending is just going on admin and profit overheads.

Even a shitty government system could beat that...

jhale667
08-20-2009, 11:10 PM
And speaking of hasty responses BT, your syntax error almost made me have to stop for a second and go "huh" and I was busy, hence my hasty response....so watch that shit next time....:lol:

jhale667
08-20-2009, 11:13 PM
And spending more than any other country to get that ranking.

People including me sometimes complain about how governments waste money but at the moment over 30% of your private healthcare spending is just going on admin and profit overheads.

Even a shitty government system could beat that...


OK, but you're not helping BT if you repost where I'm contributing to the debate....silly.

And wouldn't government competition result in a lowering of those admin expenses, and limit profits to an extent?

Seshmeister
08-20-2009, 11:19 PM
You would definitely hope so.

jhale667
08-21-2009, 02:40 AM
Here's one:



Let's take the illegal's that swamp the emergency rooms across this country everyday. How much do you think that costs the hospitals. How much does that take away from an american getting the help they need. They can walk into a hospital and get free health care and we pay for it and that in turns make the cost of health insurance go up.

Even though I won't debate that's an issue - how is that going to change one way or the other with or without healthcare reform?? Immigration is a completely separate issue, sorry.

Big Train
08-21-2009, 03:34 AM
And speaking of hasty responses BT, your syntax error almost made me have to stop for a second and go "huh" and I was busy, hence my hasty response....so watch that shit next time....:lol:

Numbnuts, posts 10 and 11 we were discussing things before you went off the rails about syntax. I was kinda hoping you know, we could stick to that.

But I'll "watch it" and let it go next time sir...