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Va Beach VH Fan
08-26-2009, 11:06 PM
I find this fascinating...

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SIOUX FALLS, S.D. — Wind farms have been blamed for disrupting the lives of birds, bats and, most recently, the land-bound sage grouse.

Now the weather forecaster?

The massive spinning blades affixed to towers 200 feet high can appear on Doppler radar like a violent storm or even a tornado.

The phenomenon has affected several National Weather Service radar sites in different parts the country, even leading to a false tornado alert near Dodge City, Kansas, in the heart of Tornado Alley. In Des Moines, Iowa, the weather service received a frantic warning from an emergency worker who had access to Doppler radar images.

The alert was quickly called off in Kansas and meteorologists calmed the emergency worker down, but with enough wind turbines going up last year to power more than 6 million homes and a major push toward alternative energy, more false alerts seem inevitable.

New installations are concentrated, understandably in windy states like Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado and Iowa, all part of Tornado Alley.

Texas, which has more tornadoes than any other state, also has the most wind power capacity.

Dave Zaff, science and operations officer with the National Weather Service office in Buffalo, N.Y., describes the wind farms 20 to 35 miles to the southeast as "more of a pimple or a blotch on your face" that 99 percent of the time will not pose a problem.

But what about those busy, high-stress periods when a meteorologist is tasked with making quick decisions as storms grow violent? In a worse-case scenario, a forecaster could disregard a real storm for turbine interference, but, more likely, would err on the side of caution, Zaff said.

"If you take a glance and then all of the sudden you see red, you might issue an incorrect warning as a result," he said.

Problems began to surface about three years ago, and seem to occur where a wind farm is built within about 11 miles of a Doppler site, said Tim Crum, with the weather service's radar operations center in Norman, Okla.

That could become a bigger problem because the same terrain is attractive for both weather radar and wind farms.

"They want to be out in relatively exposed areas, high terrain, those sorts of things," Crum said. "So we sometimes are looking for the same ground, although we're already there."

Software can easily filter out buildings, cell towers and mountain ridges on radar screens. Yet because weather radar seeks motion to warn of storms, there's no way to filter out the spinning blades.

Microwave radio signals are beamed toward a particular point and meteorologists listen for the "reflection." Experts can pick out the shape of a storm, or a tornado.

The splatter of green, yellow, orange and red on Doppler screens that are caused by wind farms can look very much like a tornado or a storm.

In Kansas, it was a computer program that picked up on the pattern and issued the alert. A meteorologist who was aware of the phenomenon quickly called off the alert.

The weather service is trying to improve its technology so that meteorologists during severe weather events can more easily tell the difference between dangerous storms and wind farms.

But there are now discussions about shutting down the wind farms when bad storms roll in.

The weather service has no say in where wind farms are sited, though it has analyzed some 500 proposed wind projects in an attempt to cut down on false alarms through better siting and layouts, said Crum.

It is also meeting regularly with AWEA, the wind power trade group.

Laurie Jodziewicz, AWEA's manager of siting policy, said the association is making sure its members understand the emerging issue and that they consider their projects' potential effects sooner rather than later.

"You can move turbines around as you're planning, but once they're in the ground they're really, really difficult to move," Jodziewicz said.

FORD
08-26-2009, 11:11 PM
Now watch the corporate energy industry run with this, and tell us that wind turbine energy is a "national security risk" because it fucks with radar.

ZahZoo
08-27-2009, 08:18 AM
Seems some reprogramming of the weather software will solve this...

It could be as simple as monitoring the behavior and radar interaction during non-storm conditions on these turbines. Their stationary rotation should be highly predicable under all conditions... once enough data is gathered and analyzed 99% of the wind turbine activity can be filtered.

Virtually all storms are under constant movement... wind turbines are stationary... In simple terms you filter stationary rotation and key focus on moving rotation. I'll lay good odds someone is already figuring this out or has and this article is a day late and a dollar short...

Igosplut
08-27-2009, 11:53 AM
They've been trying for years to get a wind farm in Nantucket Sound. Depending on who you listen to it could be the best, or the worst thing in the world.

Here's some info.... Cape Wind :: America's First Offshore Wind Farm on Nantucket Sound (http://www.capewind.org/)

Nitro Express
08-27-2009, 12:17 PM
We can't have nuclear, we can't burn coal, now windmills are bad. I guess I will just have to burn wood this winter to keep warm but that puts CO2 and carbon in the air. Maybe I should just shoot myself in the head to reduce the CO2 emissions but the gunpowder pollutes the air and the lead contaminates the environment.

Va Beach VH Fan
08-27-2009, 01:04 PM
Some people think they're eyesores, I think they look very picturesque...

I think it's a no-brainer to utilize the potential that wind energy can provide, but that's just dopey me....

Kristy
08-27-2009, 01:31 PM
Tornadoes themselves are scary. I was unlucky enough to be too close to one on Pratt, Kansas one summer and the sound of the oncoming wind is something you never forget. Even to this day, I get traumatized whenever a see a massive, dark and ominous thunderhead approaching; believe I have a irrational fear of them.

sadaist
08-27-2009, 03:09 PM
believe I have a irrational fear of them.

Nothing irrational about being afraid of a tornado.

sadaist
08-27-2009, 03:12 PM
Some people think they're eyesores, I think they look very picturesque...


There is a huge area a couple hours outside San Francisco of these. I always love driving through that part. It's also used now as a marker everyone I know uses when going across the state. "Where are you guys?"..."We just passed the windmills".

Kristy
08-27-2009, 03:14 PM
Nothing irrational about being afraid of a tornado.

True. But I was more talking about those dark, anvil-shaped thunderheads in mid-summer.

sadaist
08-27-2009, 03:18 PM
True. But I was more talking about those dark, anvil-shaped thunderheads in mid-summer.

lol. I drove from CA to Kansas City before. Once I got past Denver and into the long flat part of eastern CO I was watching for those. Just waiting for one to cruise by with a cow and a trailer floating around in it.

FORD
08-27-2009, 03:37 PM
I drove through a tornado in Denver a few years back and didn't even realize it until I watched the local news later that day. I just thought it was a really heavy rain storm. There had been dry thunderstorms all week long. Never saw a funnel cloud or anything.

kwame k
08-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Been through 3 of them in Michigan. Totally scary but really cool, too. Back in my younger/dumber days I even went chasing them. Yes, drugs were involved.

A quick question.......wind farms aren't in residential areas or even populated areas are they and if so, I imagine they're fenced off or guarded, right?

Igosplut
08-27-2009, 03:45 PM
True. But I was more talking about those dark, anvil-shaped thunderheads in mid-summer.

Oughta try going through those on an old fishing dragger in a Nor-easter in the middle of the winter..

Couple of times I woulda cried for my mommy if I'd thought it'd helped....

Igosplut
08-27-2009, 03:48 PM
lol. Just waiting for one to cruise by with a cow and a trailer floating around in it.

To Pink Floyd playing in the back round? Wizard of OZ flashbacks???

kwame k
08-27-2009, 03:49 PM
To Pink Floyd playing in the back round? Wizard of OZ flashbacks???

Or that movie that had Helen Hunt in it and a shitty soundtrack ;)

sadaist
08-27-2009, 05:55 PM
Back in my younger/dumber days I even went chasing them. Yes, drugs were involved.



Did that with a hurricane about 20 years ago. We don't get them on the west coast, but one was heading into Baja. A friend & I drove down to a small coastal fishing village and checked it out. Massively powerful.

Va Beach VH Fan
08-27-2009, 06:54 PM
A quick question.......wind farms aren't in residential areas or even populated areas are they and if so, I imagine they're fenced off or guarded, right?

Well, obviously not close to "towns".... But in areas where they've been up and running for several years now, there's no need for fencing, in fact there's very minimal impact to agriculture...

kwame k
08-27-2009, 07:01 PM
Well, obviously not close to "towns".... But in areas where they've been up and running for several years now, there's no need for fencing, in fact there's very minimal impact to agriculture...

Cool, never have seen one or researched anything about where they are located, thanks.

FORD
08-27-2009, 07:13 PM
The only objection I've ever heard of to windmills came from Native Americans who were opposed to building them in the Columbia River Gorge. The Gorge is windy as Hell, so it would be a natural location, but the Natives were afraid that eagles (sacred in their belief system) would fly into the blades and get chopped up. And chopped eagles wouldn't be good for anyone :(

I'd like to believe eagles are smarter than that though. If they can see a fish or a small animal from several hundred feet in the air, they can certainly see a big spinning blade in front of them.