Kirk & Ray Present: The Origin of Species...Revised

[bueno bob]

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[bueno bob]

...and the counterpoint, brilliantly laid out by my future wife.

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[bueno bob]

Anybody else REALLY offended by Kirk & Ray? Even without the religious context, I can't possibly imagine a worse way to rape and bastardize somebody's work.

[Satan]

Imagine Sammy Hagar writing the liner notes on the remasters of Van HALEN's albums. Pretty much the same thing.... "Hey, let me tell you why my records are better than the ones you just bought"

[sadaist]

The first 1,000 copies come with this neat new toy.


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[Jesus Christ]

Verily, that doll is less embarrassing to Me than Kirk Cameron's videos. :(

[BITEYOASS]

I've got your "Origin of Species" right here!

There are about 26 different copies you can download for free off of this public domain website called "Internet Archive."

Internet Archive Search: creator:"Darwin, Charles, 1809-1882" AND (origin of species (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Darwin%2C%20Charles% 2C%201809-1882%22%20AND%20%28origin%20of%20species%20AND%20m ediatype%3Atexts%29)

Plus they have a shitload of "Grateful Dead" live recordings.

[ELVIS]

Kirk is correct!

His acting isn't going to win any awards, but, his Christianity is real...


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

What a bozo.

It's particularly funny when he states that smart educated people are more likely to be atheists. :D

[ELVIS]

WHAT'S WHONG WITH THAT ??

It's the current education system that's responsible!

Then, in college, young people get exposed to the comparable religion bullshit...

I don't blame them for being atheist...

[Jesus Christ]

Ye aren't making the best case for Me here. Gregory..... :(

[ELVIS]

Shut up, FORD!

[Guitar Shark]

WHAT'S WHONG WITH THAT ??

It's the current education system that's responsible!



lmao... I love when stuff like this happens...

[Jesus Christ]

Kirk and Ray hath some really strange ideas about why My Dad created stuff.......

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[binnie]

Oh dear, oh dear. An 'introduction'............yeah right. If you have to go about badmouthing the author by showing him to sexist, racist and future reading for Hitler, it tells me that your intellectual arguments aren't strong enough to take Darwin. What if Hitler has enjoyed reading the Bible, would that suddenly become redundant?

As for the rejoinder by the hot girl, whilst funny, it was spoken from an equally hostile point of view. She clearly thinks that religion is a great evil, which isn't much better than the 'Intelligent Design' lobby claiming that all atheists aim to brainwash. Her invective got in the way of her obvious intelligence.

I am open minded on this issue. Has science provided all of the answers? Of course not. The 'Intelligent Design' lobby seems to be their own worst enemies, however - if God is omnipotent and omniscient, would he want himself represented by people as mindblowingly stupid as Kirk & Ray? What I would like to see is an internationally televised debate between the world's leading Darwinian/evolutionary scientists, and the world's leading 'Intelligent Design' scientists and/or scientists who believe in a deity creating the Universe. If this were overseen by a board of non-partisan members, it could be exceptionally beneficial. At present, the only people we get in the public eye are zealots on either side of the coin.

[ThrillsNSpills]

Ye aren't making the best case for Me here. Gregory..... :(


sig material right there

[ELVIS]

"Obvious intelligence?"

[Anonymous]

Oh dear, oh dear. An 'introduction'............yeah right. If you have to go about badmouthing the author by showing him to sexist, racist and future reading for Hitler, it tells me that your intellectual arguments aren't strong enough to take Darwin. What if Hitler has enjoyed reading the Bible, would that suddenly become redundant?

As for the rejoinder by the hot girl, whilst funny, it was spoken from an equally hostile point of view. She clearly thinks that religion is a great evil, which isn't much better than the 'Intelligent Design' lobby claiming that all atheists aim to brainwash. Her invective got in the way of her obvious intelligence.

I am open minded on this issue. Has science provided all of the answers? Of course not. The 'Intelligent Design' lobby seems to be their own worst enemies, however - if God is omnipotent and omniscient, would he want himself represented by people as mindblowingly stupid as Kirk & Ray? What I would like to see is an internationally televised debate between the world's leading Darwinian/evolutionary scientists, and the world's leading 'Intelligent Design' scientists and/or scientists who believe in a deity creating the Universe. If this were overseen by a board of non-partisan members, it could be exceptionally beneficial. At present, the only people we get in the public eye are zealots on either side of the coin.

GRATE POST, Binnie.

If I could write an introduction to that post, this'd be it:

Generally speaking, ultimate scientific truths are crashing down, just like ultimate religious truths have been proven wrong.

That's because both are created by humans, who have this magnificent ability - failure.

What to believe, then?

What everyone always believed in - Beer. And whisky, and boobies, and vaginas... or penises, for the ladies (you girls can also have boobies - man boobs, that is).

And leave the hatred outside. Believe what the fuck you will, just leave other people alone. If you feel the "need" to "spread the word" - religious, scientific, atheist, whatever the fuck - do everyone a favour: bang your head VERY HARD against the wall until that urge goes away.

NEVER tell others what to believe - they probably don't give a fuck anyway.

Anyone for beer?

Cheers! :bottle:

[sadaist]

I can see why people would be upset with this. Instead of writing an opposing intro to the book and giving it away, they should have printed their 50 page rebuttal as a stand alone. Then go to the colleges and give both books away together, or just give theirs away. I mean, it's like having to buy a Van Halen cd with the first 3 tracks being a commentary by Hagar explaining why his version was better. If people won't listen to your point as a stand alone, then it's time to rework the way you're presenting your message and who you have sending it out.

[Seshmeister]

WHAT'S WHONG WITH THAT ??

It's the current education system that's responsible!

Then, in college, young people get exposed to the comparable religion bullshit...

I don't blame them for being atheist...

If 19 and 20 year olds being taught evidence based science is brainwashing, what exactly is taking a 5 year old to Sunday school?

[Seshmeister]

What I would like to see is an internationally televised debate between the world's leading Darwinian/evolutionary scientists, and the world's leading 'Intelligent Design' scientists and/or scientists who believe in a deity creating the Universe.

There is no such thing as an 'Intelligent Design' scientist, they aren't scientists.

On the evolution thing none of the main christian denominations in the UK including the Catholic church dispute it, the anti evolution thing is just crazy US shit.

There are plenty of people that believe in a god who also accept evolution has been completely proved. It's beyond debate at this point. For example in the bozo video above the idiot says again that there are no transitional fossils. That's just utter utter shit. You can't debate with people like that because they are not arguing reason.

Even Elvis doesn't say that any more since I posted a few thousand examples a while ago... :)

Also the creationists also like to attack the straw dog of the original Darwin book ignoring the 150 years of science since he wrote it which is like saying that you have no use for Charles Babbage's first computer.

[sadaist]

If you're living like there is no God...




































You better pray you're right. ;)

[ELVIS]

Sesh has proof there is no god...

[Kristy]

Her invective got in the way of her obvious intelligence.

I disagree. It was more of her cynicism and acerbic styling that was being spoken over anger and hostility. The major problem I have with religion (any religion) is that anyone can speak for it whether or not they have any knowledge in divinity studies or not. What Cameron and his phallic banana-eating buddy are doing here isn't so much defending the Bible are they are initiating another cult of questionless zombies who suddenly feel victimized because they cannot plaster the Ten Commandments upon the side of a courthouse, school building or any Federal agency. Boo hoo. I don't see Taoist, Buddhist, or even Muslims bitching about their teachings not being on a rock that sits in front of police station.

What Cameron knows all too well in his soul is that is doesn't speak for Christianity so he circumvents his rhetoric by exploiting children, Hitler, Darwinism, America etc until he thinks others do. Cameron uses his fading and dismal celebrity status to push a product much like a meth dealer on any city corner, U.S.A. Doesn't matter matter if it's healthy or even true, just like a dealer he needs the uneducated, the confused and the blind to accept his drug as being good for you, that you somehow, without question, need it. If anything, his dribble is not only an embarrassment but a insult to Christians everywhere by distorting the Bible and the teachings of Jesus for a dollar or two.

[Kristy]

Oh, and speaking of Hitler, Kirk. His Gestapo also handed out "free" literature, too that targeted future doctors, lawyers and scientist. Not really making connection, just something for you to think about. And for Darwin being a misogynist...he simply started men are stronger than women in terms of human nature. Naturally, he was speaking of physical comparisons not unlike some Christian cults who see women as being nothing more that baby machines to populate heaven. But hey, who am I to argue with a banana?

[Kristy]

Kirk and Ray hath some really strange ideas about why My Dad created stuff.......

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And one last thing. I'll be damned if there isn't at least a dozen homosexual/erotic references being demonstrated in that.

[Seshmeister]

Sesh has proof there is no god...

No I only have proof that your god doesn't exist not that there is no god. :)

[jhale667]

Too bad you can't groan Kirk and Ray...:rolleyes:

[sadaist]

I only have proof that your god doesn't exist..



What proof?

[Dr. Love]

WHAT'S WHONG WITH THAT ??

Nothing. Nothing whong at all. :biggrin:

[sadaist]

And one last thing. I'll be damned if there isn't at least a dozen homosexual/erotic references being demonstrated in that.


I think you may have a case of dick on the brain. Let me guess, you're one of those types that giggles at a BBQ when someone says "meat, bone-in, weenie, raw, rump, juicy, plump, breast". I'll stop now so you don't leave a puddle on your chair.

[standin]

That might be a buy-able story if those two were isolationist. They are not. Even I in my semi reclusive state know of the banana phallus connection. There is a reason one naturally breaks the fruit from the pod into smaller pieces or uses utensils to eat it, unless rushed or ill washed hands.

[sadaist]

Even I in my semi reclusive state know of the banana phallus connection. There is a reason one naturally breaks the fruit from the pod into smaller pieces or uses utensils to eat it, unless rushed or ill washed hands.


You use utensils to eat a banana? Now that's gay.:bananasex:

[standin]

Yep, and I dip it in fresh whipped cream, chocolate and sprinkled with nuts while admiring the glistening of the concocktion as I bring it to my mouth enveloping and surrounding the creamy firm mass until just past the fruit where I grasp the tongs of the fork between my lips and slide the concocktion into my mouth, taking care to dap the corners of my lips with a linen napkin and then slowly chew and swallow my morsel.:hitch:


























































http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2242/2316672934_c49a3c9fa9.jpg

[ELVIS]

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:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Charles Stanley is my favorite TV Preacher...

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:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Are you ready to die ???

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:elvis:

[FORD]

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[ELVIS]

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[standin]

Look Elvis, we get it.
God created everything. Everything is God's.


If God so chooses for us to believe white is black, so it is.
If God chooses us not to see all the color there is, so it is.
How God choose to create is God's.
You do not know all of God's
What we know, is what God choses us to know.

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[standin]

Oops~ was supposed to be one post.

[ELVIS]

Look Elvis, we get it.


We ??

[standin]

Do you think you are alone here?

[ELVIS]

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[standin]

I have never seen you go off on a thumper, Elvis.
What's happened?
You just have a buzz or a scary night?
Tonight, might be a good time channel a recording of some Gospel covers.
Is it one of those street preaching nights for you?

[standin]

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;)

[Kristy]

I think you may have a case of dick on the brain. Let me guess, you're one of those types that giggles at a BBQ when someone says "meat, bone-in, weenie, raw, rump, juicy, plump, breast". I'll stop now so you don't leave a puddle on your chair.

Oh please, you don't see anything remotely homosexual in that? If not, maybe you, Kirk, and his banana buddy should get together and talk out all you repressed feelings.

[FORD]

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[sadaist]

Oh please, you don't see anything remotely homosexual in that? If not, maybe you, Kirk, and his banana buddy should get together and talk out all you repressed feelings.


Not really. I like bananas. I can hold, peel, and eat them without thinking of a cock. Yep, I even like them frozen & dipped in chocolate at the fair. Suppose that means something to you as well. Although I did think the clip was a bit silly. The whole thing with the "easy open tab" was funny. Fuck, half the bananas I eat, the tab breaks or doesn't peel correctly and the peel splits open on the wrong side. And the grooves matching up to the hand was dumb. As for the curve? Less curved is better for putting on a stick & dipping.

(although curved ones are better for using in banana splits. Match the curve of the dish)

http://img.foodnetwork.com/FOOD/2003/10/16/tm1b51_chocolate_dipped_bananas_lg.jpg

[Anonymous]

I think you may have a case of dick on the brain. Let me guess, you're one of those types that giggles at a BBQ when someone says "meat, bone-in, weenie, raw, rump, juicy, plump, breast". I'll stop now so you don't leave a puddle on your chair.

I don't giggle when I hear stuff like that. I roar.

'Allo 'Allo is my all-time favourite series. Stuff like "There's gonna be a big bang" "I was in the larder among the sausages when I thought of you" and the classic "My, that's a big one" are real knee-slappers for me.

I have this friend who's into fart jokes. You fart, he laughs. He farts, it's a party. If he's stoned and/or drunk, it's a one man concerto of farts & laughs. Goes on for hours.

I think it's stupid. I also think it's stupid a guy with that sense of humour thinks sex jokes are stupid.

But there ya go, humour is a funny thing, eh?

No puddles on my chair, though. Well, except for the one I left when I thought about Kristy leaving a puddle on her chair.

:umm:

Cheers! :bottle:

[Seshmeister]

Charles Stanley is my favorite TV Preacher...


I'm tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling me on T.V.
About the communist plan
And all the shady preachers
Begging for my cash
Swiss bank accounts while giving their
Secretaries the slam


I'm sorry to hear that, you've got it really bad haven't you?

Tell me how much you think Charlie should earn taking money from the feeble minded and frightened?

I think he should earn a jail sentence or at least be forced to explain exactly where every cent of the $70 million his 'Intouch' con makes each year.

http://www.prettygoodnews.com/salary_peer_reviews/Dec&#37;202006%20salary%20study%20publish%20final.pdf

He is only obliged to declare his $123 222 salary but of course he will be taking much much more than that in property and everything else.

And now he has got rid of his wife he can also more easily give his 'secretary the slam'.

Given his support for the Promise Keepers though I'm guessing he may have a male secretary though... :)

Charles Stanley - General Teachings/Activities (http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/stanley/general.htm)


- Promise Keepers is the gigantic new (1991) "men's movement" among professing evangelical Christians. Its roots are Catholic and charismatic to the core. PK's contradictory stand on homosexuality; its promotion of secular psychology; its unscriptural feminizing of men; its depiction of Jesus as a "phallic messiah" tempted to perform homosexual acts; and its ecumenical and unbiblical teachings should dissuade any true Christian from participating. Promise Keepers is proving to be one of the most ungodly and misleading movements in the annals of Christian history. Nevertheless, Stanley is a promoter of this ecumenical, charismatic, psychologized men's movement -- over 200 members from Stanley's First Baptist of Atlanta (FBCA) attended the Promise Keepers National Convention in Boulder, Colorado in 1994, and PK is listed as a "Support Group" ministry at FBCA.

[Nickdfresh]

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[Seshmeister]

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[jhale667]

I'm tired of all this bullshit
They keep selling me on T.V.
About the communist plan
And all the shady preachers
Begging for my cash
Swiss bank accounts while giving their
Secretaries the slam




So glad I'm not the only one for whom that lyric popped into my head while reading this thread....:hee:

[Seshmeister]

I'm amazed people are still falling for this shit, these thieving pricks should have been run out of town in the late 80s.

Even worse someone I eknow.

[Kristy]

Not really. I like bananas. I can hold, peel, and eat them without thinking of a cock. Yep, I even like them frozen & dipped in chocolate at the fair. Suppose that means something to you as well.

Such as? That you haven't quite come out of the closet yet? Is that what you want me to say?

[Seshmeister]

I can't believe this guy is still going.

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I wonder how much miracle water Elvis has bought so far...

[sadaist]

Such as? That you haven't quite come out of the closet yet? Is that what you want me to say?

Hey, if I were gay, I would have "come out of the closet" before I married that bitch ex-wife of mine and she took half my stuff. Or maybe before I sold my ski boat to buy her an engagement ring. (got a lot more rides out of the boat). On the bright side, I got to keep the dogs. Trade off for the 65" High Def TV she wanted. I still think I won that one.;)

And the big guy here also loves bananas. Can't even say the word around him without him starting to drool. Actually...."nanas".



http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa214/sadaist/Dogs.jpg

[Guitar Shark]

I'm shocked that she didn't want that couch... ;)

J/K man :D

[sadaist]

I'm shocked that she didn't want that couch... ;)

J/K man :D


LMAO. You know what's fucked up? She DID take the couch! And that lame fake plant behind it.:hee:

[BITEYOASS]

Why should I take anything seriously from a cast member of some shitty family sitcom?

[FORD]

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[GAR]

Not really. I like bananas. I can hold, peel, and eat them without thinking of a cock.

Women can't - they stuff a banana down their throat and they think of two things: a cock, and the wallet behind it.

[GAR]

I'm sorry to hear that, you've got it really bad haven't you?

Another one of Sesh's great, great dodges of The Message against The Messenger that delivers it.

[bueno bob]

Women can't - they stuff a banana down their throat and they think of two things: a cock, and the wallet behind it.

Such is usually thought by perpetually dateless, despondent and angry men...

[bueno bob]

I have to admit, I'm confused as to how YouTubes of sermons could possibly fit in this thread...

:confused:

[sadaist]

I have to admit, I'm confused as to how YouTubes of sermons could possibly fit in this thread...

:confused:


HAHA. I love how threads here have a way of going down several different roads.

[Seshmeister]

Oldest "Human" Skeleton Found--Disproves "Missing Link"

Jamie Shreeve

Science editor, National Geographic magazine
October 1, 2009

Move over, Lucy. And kiss the missing link goodbye.

Scientists today announced the discovery of the oldest fossil skeleton of a human ancestor. The find reveals that our forebears underwent a previously unknown stage of evolution more than a million years before Lucy, the iconic early human ancestor specimen that walked the Earth 3.2 million years ago.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/images/thumbs/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus_170.jpg


The centerpiece of a treasure trove of new fossils, the skeleton—assigned to a species called Ardipithecus ramidus—belonged to a small-brained, 110-pound (50-kilogram) female nicknamed "Ardi." (See pictures of Ardipithecus ramidus.)

The fossil puts to rest the notion, popular since Darwin's time, that a chimpanzee-like missing link—resembling something between humans and today's apes—would eventually be found at the root of the human family tree. Indeed, the new evidence suggests that the study of chimpanzee anatomy and behavior—long used to infer the nature of the earliest human ancestors—is largely irrelevant to understanding our beginnings.

Ardi instead shows an unexpected mix of advanced characteristics and of primitive traits seen in much older apes that were unlike chimps or gorillas (interactive: Ardi's key features). As such, the skeleton offers a window on what the last common ancestor of humans and living apes might have been like.

Announced at joint press conferences in Washington, D.C., and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, the analysis of the Ardipithecus ramidus bones will be published in a collection of papers tomorrow in a special edition of the journal Science, along with an avalanche of supporting materials published online.

"This find is far more important than Lucy," said Alan Walker, a paleontologist from Pennsylvania State University who was not part of the research. "It shows that the last common ancestor with chimps didn't look like a chimp, or a human, or some funny thing in between." (Related: "Oldest Homo Sapiens Fossils Found, Experts Say" [June 11, 2003].)

Ardi Surrounded by Family

The Ardipithecus ramidus fossils were discovered in Ethiopia's harsh Afar desert at a site called Aramis in the Middle Awash region, just 46 miles (74 kilometers) from where Lucy's species, Australopithecus afarensis, was found in 1974. Radiometric dating of two layers of volcanic ash that tightly sandwiched the fossil deposits revealed that Ardi lived 4.4 million years ago.

Older hominid fossils have been uncovered, including a skull from Chad at least six million years old and some more fragmentary, slightly younger remains from Kenya and nearby in the Middle Awash.

While important, however, none of those earlier fossils are nearly as revealing as the newly announced remains, which in addition to Ardi's partial skeleton include bones representing at least 36 other individuals.

"All of a sudden you've got fingers and toes and arms and legs and heads and teeth," said Tim White of the University of California, Berkeley, who co-directed the work with Berhane Asfaw, a paleoanthropologist and former director of the National Museum of Ethiopia, and Giday WoldeGabriel, a geologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

"That allows you to do something you can't do with isolated specimens," White said. "It allows you to do biology."

(Related: Rediscover the original Ardipithecus.)

Ardi's Weird Way of Moving

The biggest surprise about Ardipithecus's biology is its bizarre means of moving about.

All previously known hominids—members of our ancestral lineage—walked upright on two legs, like us. But Ardi's feet, pelvis, legs, and hands suggest she was a biped on the ground but a quadruped when moving about in the trees.

Her big toe, for instance, splays out from her foot like an ape's, the better to grasp tree limbs. Unlike a chimpanzee foot, however, Ardipithecus's contains a special small bone inside a tendon, passed down from more primitive ancestors, that keeps the divergent toe more rigid. Combined with modifications to the other toes, the bone would have helped Ardi walk bipedally on the ground, though less efficiently than later hominids like Lucy. The bone was lost in the lineages of chimps and gorillas.

According to the researchers, the pelvis shows a similar mosaic of traits. The large flaring bones of the upper pelvis were positioned so that Ardi could walk on two legs without lurching from side to side like a chimp. But the lower pelvis was built like an ape's, to accommodate huge hind limb muscles used in climbing.

Even in the trees, Ardi was nothing like a modern ape, the researchers say.

Modern chimps and gorillas have evolved limb anatomy specialized to climbing vertically up tree trunks, hanging and swinging from branches, and knuckle-walking on the ground.

While these behaviors require very rigid wrist bones, for instance, the wrists and finger joints of Ardipithecus were highly flexible. As a result Ardi would have walked on her palms as she moved about in the trees—more like some primitive fossil apes than like chimps and gorillas.

"What Ardi tells us is there was this vast intermediate stage in our evolution that nobody knew about," said Owen Lovejoy, an anatomist at Kent State University in Ohio, who analyzed Ardi's bones below the neck. "It changes everything."

Against All Odds, Ardi Emerges

The first, fragmentary specimens of Ardipithecus were found at Aramis in 1992 and published in 1994. The skeleton announced today was discovered that same year and excavated with the bones of the other individuals over the next three field seasons. But it took 15 years before the research team could fully analyze and publish the skeleton, because the fossils were in such bad shape.

After Ardi died, her remains apparently were trampled down into mud by hippos and other passing herbivores. Millions of years later, erosion brought the badly crushed and distorted bones back to the surface.

They were so fragile they would turn to dust at a touch. To save the precious fragments, White and colleagues removed the fossils along with their surrounding rock. Then, in a lab in Addis, the researchers carefully tweaked out the bones from the rocky matrix using a needle under a microscope, proceeding "millimeter by submillimeter," as the team puts it in Science. This process alone took several years.

Pieces of the crushed skull were then CT-scanned and digitally fit back together by Gen Suwa, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Tokyo.

In the end, the research team recovered more than 125 pieces of the skeleton, including much of the feet and virtually all of the hands—an extreme rarity among hominid fossils of any age, let alone one so very ancient.

"Finding this skeleton was more than luck," said White. "It was against all odds."

Ardi's World

The team also found some 6,000 animal fossils and other specimens that offer a picture of the world Ardi inhabited: a moist woodland very different from the region's current, parched landscape. In addition to antelope and monkey species associated with forests, the deposits contained forest-dwelling birds and seeds from fig and palm trees.

Wear patterns and isotopes in the hominid teeth suggest a diet that included fruits, nuts, and other forest foods.

If White and his team are right that Ardi walked upright as well as climbed trees, the environmental evidence would seem to strike the death knell for the "savanna hypothesis"—a long-standing notion that our ancestors first stood up in response to their move onto an open grassland environment.

Sex for Food

Some researchers, however, are unconvinced that Ardipithecus was quite so versatile.

"This is a fascinating skeleton, but based on what they present, the evidence for bipedality is limited at best," said William Jungers, an anatomist at Stony Brook University in New York State.

"Divergent big toes are associated with grasping, and this has one of the most divergent big toes you can imagine," Jungers said. "Why would an animal fully adapted to support its weight on its forelimbs in the trees elect to walk bipedally on the ground?"

One provocative answer to that question—originally proposed by Lovejoy in the early 1980s and refined now in light of the Ardipithecus discoveries—attributes the origin of bipedality to another trademark of humankind: monogamous sex.

Virtually all apes and monkeys, especially males, have long upper canine teeth—formidable weapons in fights for mating opportunities.

But Ardipithecus appears to have already embarked on a uniquely human evolutionary path, with canines reduced in size and dramatically "feminized" to a stubby, diamond shape, according to the researchers. Males and female specimens are also close to each other in body size.

Lovejoy sees these changes as part of an epochal shift in social behavior: Instead of fighting for access to females, a male Ardipithecus would supply a "targeted female" and her offspring with gathered foods and gain her sexual loyalty in return.

To keep up his end of the deal, a male needed to have his hands free to carry home the food. Bipedalism may have been a poor way for Ardipithecus to get around, but through its contribution to the "sex for food" contract, it would have been an excellent way to bear more offspring. And in evolution, of course, more offspring is the name of the game (more: "Did Early Humans Start Walking for Sex?").

Two hundred thousand years after Ardipithecus, another species called Australopithecus anamensis appeared in the region. By most accounts, that species soon evolved into Australopithecus afarensis, with a slightly larger brain and a full commitment to a bipedal way of life. Then came early Homo, with its even bigger brain and budding tool use.

Did primitive Ardipithecus undergo some accelerated change in the 200,000 years between it and Australopithecus—and emerge as the ancestor of all later hominids? Or was Ardipithecus a relict species, carrying its quaint mosaic of primitive and advanced traits with it into extinction?

Study co-leader White sees nothing about the skeleton "that would exclude it from ancestral status." But he said more fossils would be needed to fully resolve the issue.

Stony Brook's Jungers added, "These finds are incredibly important, and given the state of preservation of the bones, what they did was nothing short of heroic.

But this is just the beginning of the story."

[BITEYOASS]

Oldest "Human" Skeleton Found--Disproves "Missing Link"

Jamie Shreeve

Science editor, National Geographic magazine
October 1, 2009

Move over, Lucy. And kiss the missing link goodbye.

Scientists today announced the discovery of the oldest fossil skeleton of a human ancestor. The find reveals that our forebears underwent a previously unknown stage of evolution more than a million years before Lucy, the iconic early human ancestor specimen that walked the Earth 3.2 million years ago.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/images/thumbs/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus_170.jpg


The centerpiece of a treasure trove of new fossils, the skeleton—assigned to a species called Ardipithecus ramidus—belonged to a small-brained, 110-pound (50-kilogram) female nicknamed "Ardi." (See pictures of Ardipithecus ramidus.)

The fossil puts to rest the notion, popular since Darwin's time, that a chimpanzee-like missing link—resembling something between humans and today's apes—would eventually be found at the root of the human family tree. Indeed, the new evidence suggests that the study of chimpanzee anatomy and behavior—long used to infer the nature of the earliest human ancestors—is largely irrelevant to understanding our beginnings.

Ardi instead shows an unexpected mix of advanced characteristics and of primitive traits seen in much older apes that were unlike chimps or gorillas (interactive: Ardi's key features). As such, the skeleton offers a window on what the last common ancestor of humans and living apes might have been like.

Announced at joint press conferences in Washington, D.C., and Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, the analysis of the Ardipithecus ramidus bones will be published in a collection of papers tomorrow in a special edition of the journal Science, along with an avalanche of supporting materials published online.

"This find is far more important than Lucy," said Alan Walker, a paleontologist from Pennsylvania State University who was not part of the research. "It shows that the last common ancestor with chimps didn't look like a chimp, or a human, or some funny thing in between." (Related: "Oldest Homo Sapiens Fossils Found, Experts Say" [June 11, 2003].)

Ardi Surrounded by Family

The Ardipithecus ramidus fossils were discovered in Ethiopia's harsh Afar desert at a site called Aramis in the Middle Awash region, just 46 miles (74 kilometers) from where Lucy's species, Australopithecus afarensis, was found in 1974. Radiometric dating of two layers of volcanic ash that tightly sandwiched the fossil deposits revealed that Ardi lived 4.4 million years ago.

Older hominid fossils have been uncovered, including a skull from Chad at least six million years old and some more fragmentary, slightly younger remains from Kenya and nearby in the Middle Awash.

While important, however, none of those earlier fossils are nearly as revealing as the newly announced remains, which in addition to Ardi's partial skeleton include bones representing at least 36 other individuals.

"All of a sudden you've got fingers and toes and arms and legs and heads and teeth," said Tim White of the University of California, Berkeley, who co-directed the work with Berhane Asfaw, a paleoanthropologist and former director of the National Museum of Ethiopia, and Giday WoldeGabriel, a geologist at Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

"That allows you to do something you can't do with isolated specimens," White said. "It allows you to do biology."

(Related: Rediscover the original Ardipithecus.)

Ardi's Weird Way of Moving

The biggest surprise about Ardipithecus's biology is its bizarre means of moving about.

All previously known hominids—members of our ancestral lineage—walked upright on two legs, like us. But Ardi's feet, pelvis, legs, and hands suggest she was a biped on the ground but a quadruped when moving about in the trees.

Her big toe, for instance, splays out from her foot like an ape's, the better to grasp tree limbs. Unlike a chimpanzee foot, however, Ardipithecus's contains a special small bone inside a tendon, passed down from more primitive ancestors, that keeps the divergent toe more rigid. Combined with modifications to the other toes, the bone would have helped Ardi walk bipedally on the ground, though less efficiently than later hominids like Lucy. The bone was lost in the lineages of chimps and gorillas.

According to the researchers, the pelvis shows a similar mosaic of traits. The large flaring bones of the upper pelvis were positioned so that Ardi could walk on two legs without lurching from side to side like a chimp. But the lower pelvis was built like an ape's, to accommodate huge hind limb muscles used in climbing.

Even in the trees, Ardi was nothing like a modern ape, the researchers say.

Modern chimps and gorillas have evolved limb anatomy specialized to climbing vertically up tree trunks, hanging and swinging from branches, and knuckle-walking on the ground.

While these behaviors require very rigid wrist bones, for instance, the wrists and finger joints of Ardipithecus were highly flexible. As a result Ardi would have walked on her palms as she moved about in the trees—more like some primitive fossil apes than like chimps and gorillas.

"What Ardi tells us is there was this vast intermediate stage in our evolution that nobody knew about," said Owen Lovejoy, an anatomist at Kent State University in Ohio, who analyzed Ardi's bones below the neck. "It changes everything."

Against All Odds, Ardi Emerges

The first, fragmentary specimens of Ardipithecus were found at Aramis in 1992 and published in 1994. The skeleton announced today was discovered that same year and excavated with the bones of the other individuals over the next three field seasons. But it took 15 years before the research team could fully analyze and publish the skeleton, because the fossils were in such bad shape.

After Ardi died, her remains apparently were trampled down into mud by hippos and other passing herbivores. Millions of years later, erosion brought the badly crushed and distorted bones back to the surface.

They were so fragile they would turn to dust at a touch. To save the precious fragments, White and colleagues removed the fossils along with their surrounding rock. Then, in a lab in Addis, the researchers carefully tweaked out the bones from the rocky matrix using a needle under a microscope, proceeding "millimeter by submillimeter," as the team puts it in Science. This process alone took several years.

Pieces of the crushed skull were then CT-scanned and digitally fit back together by Gen Suwa, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Tokyo.

In the end, the research team recovered more than 125 pieces of the skeleton, including much of the feet and virtually all of the hands—an extreme rarity among hominid fossils of any age, let alone one so very ancient.

"Finding this skeleton was more than luck," said White. "It was against all odds."

Ardi's World

The team also found some 6,000 animal fossils and other specimens that offer a picture of the world Ardi inhabited: a moist woodland very different from the region's current, parched landscape. In addition to antelope and monkey species associated with forests, the deposits contained forest-dwelling birds and seeds from fig and palm trees.

Wear patterns and isotopes in the hominid teeth suggest a diet that included fruits, nuts, and other forest foods.

If White and his team are right that Ardi walked upright as well as climbed trees, the environmental evidence would seem to strike the death knell for the "savanna hypothesis"—a long-standing notion that our ancestors first stood up in response to their move onto an open grassland environment.

Sex for Food

Some researchers, however, are unconvinced that Ardipithecus was quite so versatile.

"This is a fascinating skeleton, but based on what they present, the evidence for bipedality is limited at best," said William Jungers, an anatomist at Stony Brook University in New York State.

"Divergent big toes are associated with grasping, and this has one of the most divergent big toes you can imagine," Jungers said. "Why would an animal fully adapted to support its weight on its forelimbs in the trees elect to walk bipedally on the ground?"

One provocative answer to that question—originally proposed by Lovejoy in the early 1980s and refined now in light of the Ardipithecus discoveries—attributes the origin of bipedality to another trademark of humankind: monogamous sex.

Virtually all apes and monkeys, especially males, have long upper canine teeth—formidable weapons in fights for mating opportunities.

But Ardipithecus appears to have already embarked on a uniquely human evolutionary path, with canines reduced in size and dramatically "feminized" to a stubby, diamond shape, according to the researchers. Males and female specimens are also close to each other in body size.

Lovejoy sees these changes as part of an epochal shift in social behavior: Instead of fighting for access to females, a male Ardipithecus would supply a "targeted female" and her offspring with gathered foods and gain her sexual loyalty in return.

To keep up his end of the deal, a male needed to have his hands free to carry home the food. Bipedalism may have been a poor way for Ardipithecus to get around, but through its contribution to the "sex for food" contract, it would have been an excellent way to bear more offspring. And in evolution, of course, more offspring is the name of the game (more: "Did Early Humans Start Walking for Sex?").

Two hundred thousand years after Ardipithecus, another species called Australopithecus anamensis appeared in the region. By most accounts, that species soon evolved into Australopithecus afarensis, with a slightly larger brain and a full commitment to a bipedal way of life. Then came early Homo, with its even bigger brain and budding tool use.

Did primitive Ardipithecus undergo some accelerated change in the 200,000 years between it and Australopithecus—and emerge as the ancestor of all later hominids? Or was Ardipithecus a relict species, carrying its quaint mosaic of primitive and advanced traits with it into extinction?

Study co-leader White sees nothing about the skeleton "that would exclude it from ancestral status." But he said more fossils would be needed to fully resolve the issue.

Stony Brook's Jungers added, "These finds are incredibly important, and given the state of preservation of the bones, what they did was nothing short of heroic.

But this is just the beginning of the story."

It also proves that creationism/intelligent design is an EPIC FAIL!

[sadaist]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/images/thumbs/091001-oldest-human-skeleton-ardi-missing-link-chimps-ardipithecus-ramidus_170.jpg

Wow. Why are they spending years looking at fossil fragments that are over a million years old? Just flip on the news.



http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/ahmadinejad_at_his_best.jpg

[FORD]

Is that a real picture of Ahmadinnerjacket, or did they morph the eyes in from BCE tool (and unfortunately frequent MSNBC guest) Ron Christie?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JnCUXFEdVus/SZ0A66QANaI/AAAAAAAAAN4/xKDOVIaBri0/s400/ron_christie.jpg

[sadaist]

Is that a real picture of Ahmadinnerjacket




LOL. I don't know. All I did was Google Ahmedinijad and then click images. But when I saw the ape illustration I immediately thought of him. Dude looks like a monkey...whether or not this pic is messed with I can't say. Looks about right though. :biggrin:


Honestly though, looking closely...it sure looks like the real deal. Poor guy. LMAO

[Seshmeister]

LOL. I don't know. All I did was Google Ahmedinijad and then click images.

Strange...I get this...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_139j4HyOwtg/SmykzkndBmI/AAAAAAAABSo/2TcBqEtmyWs/s400/DINNER_JACKET.jpg

[standin]

You have to wonder though, why are there no other "types" of "humans" Like insects such as butterfly people or fish such as crab people.
And the real key is, if we did evolve at what point did not "human factor" set in. That touch of magic that makes us "societal" for lack of descriptive words.

[ELVIS]

The "human factor" came in when God breathed life (heart soul and mind) into Adam...

[Nickdfresh]

I thought it was when a nymph pulled a clay plate out of a leprechaun's ass and the Flying Spaghetti Monster turned it into the earth while they were surfing on a cosmic turtle?

[FORD]

You have to wonder though, why are there no other "types" of "humans" Like insects such as butterfly people or fish such as crab people.
And the real key is, if we did evolve at what point did not "human factor" set in. That touch of magic that makes us "societal" for lack of descriptive words.

But there ARE crab people!

<embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:154111" width="480" height="400" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" flashVars="autoPlay=false&dist=www.southparkstudios.com&orig=" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" allownetworking="all" bgcolor="#000000"></embed>

[Guitar Shark]

How does God breathe? Is there air in heaven?

[ELVIS]

I dunno if there is or not, neither do you. I don't even know where Heaven is...

[FORD]

I dunno if there is or not, neither do you. I don't even know where Heaven is...

According to the prophet Belinda of Carlisle, its a place on Earth.

[standin]

But there ARE crab people!

<embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:154111" width="480" height="400" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" flashVars="autoPlay=false&dist=www.southparkstudios.com&orig=" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" allownetworking="all" bgcolor="#000000"></embed>
Thanks!
I did not know that!
What would we do without Southpark!

[Nickdfresh]

I thought it was located somewhere in a Scarlett Johansson and Natalie Portman sandwich...

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_02/JohanssonWIRE1602_468x656.jpg

[sadaist]

I don't even know where Heaven is...

Sorry Elvis. Had to.


<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFPajU-d-Ek&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vFPajU-d-Ek&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[bueno bob]

The "human factor" came in when God breathed life (heart soul and mind) into Adam...

Explain to me the necessary incest that was required to promote the human race based on the concept of Adam and Eve.

[hideyoursheep]

Allright...

This ought to get Shesh going..just one of literally thousands to choose from, from any religion (or lack thereof) or any corner of the globe.

I picked this one because I found it most interesting.

Try and get through it all before going ballistic.;)


Before his near-death experience, Rev. Howard Storm, a Professor of Art at Northern Kentucky University, was not a very pleasant man. He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn't find joy in anything. Anything that wasn't seen, touched, or felt, he had no faith in. He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else.

On June 1, 1985, at the age of 38, Howard Storm had a near-death experience due to a perforation of the stomach and his life was forever changed. His near-death experience is one of the most profound, if not the most profound, afterlife experience I have ever documented. His life was so immensely changed after his near-death experience that he resigned as a professor and devoted his time to attending the United Theological Seminary to become a United Church of Christ minister. The following is the account of Pastor Howard Storm's near-death experience;

Part 1 (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm01.html)

Part 2 (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html)

Part 3 (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html)

Part 4 (http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm04.html)

What do YOU think?

Discuss.

[binnie]

"Pain is bullshit", lol! :D

[WARF]

Judging by some of the posts in this thread... maybe man did come from monkeys!

Jesus is LORD... end of story... next...

[FORD]

Well, we know of at least one case where monkey came from man.....

http://politicalpartypooper.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/bush-chimp.jpg

[BITEYOASS]

Kirk Cameron is just another christo-celeb growing pain in the ass! :D