PDA

View Full Version : An excellent realistic read on the economy



Big Train
10-12-2009, 03:46 PM
FT.com | Economists' Forum | A second Great Depression is still possible (http://blogs.ft.com/economistsforum/2009/10/a-second-great-depression-is-still-possible/)

A second Great Depression is still possible
October 11, 2009 4:37pmby FT
By Thomas Palley

Over the past year the global economy has experienced a massive contraction, the deepest since the Great Depression of the 1930s. But this spring, economists started talking of “green shoots” of recovery and that optimistic assessment quickly spread to Wall Street. More recently, on the anniversary of the Lehman Brothers crash, Ben Bernanke, Federal Reserve chairman, officially blessed this consensus by declaring the recession is “very likely over”.
The future is fundamentally uncertain, which always makes prediction a rash enterprise. That said there is a good chance the new consensus is wrong. Instead, there are solid grounds for believing the US economy will experience a second dip followed by extended stagnation that will qualify as the second Great Depression. Some indications to this effect are already rolling in with unexpectedly large US job losses in September and the crash in US automobile sales following the end of the “cash-for-clunkers” programme.

That rosy scenario thinking has returned to Wall Street should be no surprise. Wall Street profits from rising asset prices on which it charges a management fee, from deal-making on which it earns advisory fees, and from encouraging retail investors to buy stock, which boosts transaction fees. Such earnings are far larger when stock markets are rising, which explains Wall Street’s genetic propensity to pump the economy.

As for mainstream economists, their theoretical models were blind-sided by the crisis and only predict recovery because of the assumptions in the models. According to mainstream theory, it is assumed that full employment is a gravity point to which the economy is pulled back.

Empirical econometric models are equally questionable. They too predict gradual recovery but that is driven by patterns of reversion to trends found in past data. The problem, as investment professionals say, is that “past performance is no guide to future performance”. The economic crisis represents the implosion of the economic paradigm that has ruled US and global growth for the past thirty years. That paradigm was based on consumption fuelled by indebtedness and asset price inflation, and it is done.

There is a simple logic to why the economy will experience a second dip. That logic rests on the economics of deleveraging which inevitably produces a two-step correction. The first step has been worked through, and it triggered a financial crisis that caused the worst recession since the Great Depression. The second step has only just begun.

Deleveraging can be understood through a metaphor in which a car symbolises the economy. Borrowing is like stepping on the gas and accelerates economic activity. When borrowing stops, the foot comes off the pedal and the car slows down. However, the car’s trunk is now weighed down by accumulated debt so economic activity slows below its initial level.

With deleveraging, households increase saving and re-pay debt. This is the second step and it is like stepping on the brake, which causes the economy to slow further, in a motion akin to a double dip. Rapid deleveraging, as is happening now, is the equivalent of hitting the brakes hard. The only positive is it reduces debt, which is like removing weight from the trunk. That helps stabilise activity at a new lower level, but it does not speed up the car, as economists claim.

Unfortunately, the car metaphor only partially captures current conditions as it assumes the braking process is smooth. Yet, there has already been a financial crisis and the real economy is now infected by a multiplier process causing lower spending, massive job loss, and business failures. That plus deleveraging creates the possibility of a downward spiral, which would constitute a depression.

Such a spiral is captured by the metaphor of the Titanic, which was thought to be unsinkable owing to its sequentially structured bulkheads. However, those bulkheads had no ceilings, and when the Titanic hit an iceberg that gashed its side, the front bulkheads filled with water and pulled down the bow. Water then rippled into the aft bulkheads, causing the ship to sink.

The US economy has hit a debt iceberg. The resulting gash threatens to flood the economy’s stabilising mechanisms, which the economist Hyman Minsky termed “thwarting institutions”.

Unemployment insurance is not up to the scale of the problem and is expiring for many workers. That promises to further reduce spending and aggravate the foreclosure problem.

States are bound by balanced budget requirements and they are cutting spending and jobs. Consequently, the public sector is joining the private sector in contraction.

The destruction of household wealth means many households have near-zero or even negative net worth. That increases pressure to save and blocks access to borrowing that might jump-start a recovery. Moreover, both the household and business sector face extensive bankruptcies that amplify the downward multiplier shock and also limit future economic activity by destroying credit histories and access to credit.

Lastly, the US continues to bleed through the triple haemorrhage of the trade deficit that drains spending via imports, off-shoring of jobs, and off-shoring of new investment. This haemorrhage was evident in the cash-for-clunkers program in which eight of the top ten vehicles sold had foreign brands. Consequently, even enormous fiscal stimulus will be of diminished effect.

The financial crisis created an adverse feedback loop in financial markets. Unparalleled deleveraging and the multiplier process have created an adverse feedback loop in the real economy. That is a loop which is far harder to reverse, which is why a second Great Depression remains a real possibility.

Thomas Palley is former chief economist of the US-China Economic and Security Review Commission and is currently Schwartz Economic Growth Fellow at the New America Foundation

Nickdfresh
10-12-2009, 06:28 PM
http://arizonadiscounttravel.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/chicken-little.jpg

The Associated Press: Survey: Most economists see recovery beginning (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iB87vb8BDm0a5Ive2po5SsJaHONQD9B9JR200)

Big Train
10-12-2009, 06:58 PM
So your chicken if you have an alternate view? It's macho to just agree with the prevailing theory of some economists? Don't think for yourself or anything, why do that? He presents a very sound argument which apparently you don't or can't refute in any specific way.

Your responses have gotten weaker and weaker. You are down to using pictures..use your words, big boy.

Nickdfresh
10-12-2009, 07:04 PM
.....use your words, big boy.

You first!

Big Train
10-12-2009, 07:08 PM
On what, the highlights of your latest coloring book pictures from special ed class?

Guitar Shark
10-12-2009, 07:10 PM
On what, the highlights of your latest coloring book pictures from special ed class?

I think he is suggesting that you provide your own thoughts rather than copying/pasting the thoughts of someone else.

Big Train
10-12-2009, 07:13 PM
My thread title kinda covers that Shark...I posted it because I read it and found it interesting and worthy of posting.

Nick responds with a picture.

But sure I guess I can expand my thoughts first...

Guitar Shark
10-12-2009, 07:15 PM
Eh, I don't care about copying/pasting so much - we all do it. But I think Nick has a problem with it, mainly because he has to sort through so many threads with similar topics.

GAR
10-13-2009, 03:45 AM
My thread title kinda covers that Shark...

You are correct BT to post about deleveraging being an initiator to the next collapse, which we all know is locked up in commercial real estate that's not moving and paying for its own leveraged mortgages.. banks hold onto that stuff longer than residential~!

In fact, I've been calling on the same empty properties for a new office now for over a year and no agent has authority to budge. Nor is budging.

So when I pick up the phone and it's one of the listing agents, I laugh and ask straight up are they gonna meet me on sq footage or not, when they say no I just hang up without saying bye.

And they call back every month, like clockwork. For me it's just a waiting game.. however those offices I looked at are generated vacant neighbors now and it's becoming unREAL in a real way.

My chick says this shit is worse in Ohio..

ELVIS
10-13-2009, 08:30 AM
Office for what ??

ThrillsNSpills
10-13-2009, 09:05 AM
for Posting
c'mon:)

ELVIS
10-13-2009, 10:15 AM
:biggrin:

Nickdfresh
10-13-2009, 10:31 AM
On what, the highlights of your latest coloring book pictures from special ed class?

Wow! What a zinger!


My thread title kinda covers that Shark...I posted it because I read it and found it interesting and worthy of posting.

Nick responds with a picture.

But sure I guess I can expand my thoughts first...

Ah. But a picture says a thousand words doesn't it?

Incidentally, what is so "excellent" about your article's insightful analysis? How are we going to go into a "depression?" You can argue that we've been in one, or that gov't intervention into the economy has made sharp depressions a thing of the past...

It's seems you're just posting baseless shit blogspam now in order rationalize the irrational fears and your political agenda of fear mongering and pretending that somehow everything is Obama's fault and not that assclown you voted for...

When 80% of economists agree that we're almost at the end of the recession, I'd say this article's hyperbole is one step away from Glenda Beck's "FEMA Camp" rantings and Elvis's "Inside-Job" paranoia...

Big Train
10-13-2009, 12:55 PM
Wow! What a zinger!

I was trying to find a picture, but I don't have access to a library of children's books as vast as yours.

Ah. But a picture says a thousand words doesn't it?

Doesn't mean any of them are worth listening to.

Incidentally, what is so "excellent" about your article's insightful analysis? How are we going to go into a "depression?" You can argue that we've been in one, or that gov't intervention into the economy has made sharp depressions a thing of the past...

It's seems you're just posting baseless shit blogspam now in order rationalize the irrational fears and your political agenda of fear mongering and pretending that somehow everything is Obama's fault and not that assclown you voted for...

When 80% of economists agree that we're almost at the end of the recession, I'd say this article's hyperbole is one step away from Glenda Beck's "FEMA Camp" rantings and Elvis's "Inside-Job" paranoia...

Slow down projector. I agree with the thesis being presented and it has nothing to do with who is president. You are so eager to defend him though and anyone who might criticize him I can see why your jumping to that conclusion.

We have a huge balloon of debt in this country. The only way off that is to ramp it down. The available dollars for spending items therefore decreases and the jobs to provide goods and services we were previously buying slows to a crawl, so it's a double whammy, which may mean a recovery in stages, not in the straight U shape most economists are predicting. I find that to be a solid argument and realistic.

This says nothing about George Bush or Barack Obama. If there is a commentary in there it's that A. I disagree with most economists rosy predictions. B. I wont put my own money in the market thinking there is a rally coming that there isn't.

Your only way to refute this is to say simply "this is hyperbole because 80% of economists disagree". That is not a reasoned argument. That is a fifth graders argument. Nuh uh!!

Nitro Express
10-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Not just the Federal Reserve but all central banks are devaluing their currency. Right now the globe is flooded with money and it's going into the financial markets. This is going to rally stocks up for awhile. The long-term problem of devaluing your currency is inflation. Then you have the job losses and the HUGE debt. Sure the US can print money but the policies of the govt. now are going to raise taxes while losing jobs and not getting rid of debt. This is unsustainable. Sure you can hyperinflate your currency to zero and when that's multiplied against the debt. you get rid of it but then that's like killing yourself so you won't have to pay your mortgage and credit cards. It's nuts and it's global but the US is the biggest debtor nation in world history right now.

People are running for gold. People are keeping their money in various currencies, Some are hoping to make a quick killing on the stock market flooded with all this new money. The thing is what is the long-term picture? That's the big question. Is the US going to go isolationalist? Are we going to have civil unrest and how bad is that going to be? Are we going to go to war with each other when one nation can't pay it's debtors? What does terrorism play in all this? I see failed economies, failed nations, and more war personally.