Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail [Archive] - The Diamond David Lee Roth Army

ELVIS

11-07-2009, 10:03 PM

JCT Confirms Failure to Comply with Democrats’ Mandate Can Lead to 5 Years in Jail

November 06, 2009 (http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153583)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ue2XpfTMoOE/SaGHgK4eOwI/AAAAAAAAAEc/R0xk-09Cx_s/s1600/Nancy_Pelosi_Botox_Smile.jpg

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain “acceptable health insurance coverage” and who choose not to pay the bill’s new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: “This is the ultimate example of the Democrats’ command-and-control style of governing – buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.”

Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below:

“H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.” [page 1]

- - - - - - - - - -

“If the government determines that the taxpayer’s unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply…” [page 2]

- - - - - - - - - -

“Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

• Section 7203 – misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

• Section 7201 – felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.” [page 3]

When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.

“The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosi’s decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare,” said Camp.

According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speaker’s bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.

:mad2:

Nickdfresh

11-07-2009, 11:08 PM

LOL Elvis is now been reduced to posting GOP congressman fuckwit press releases as "information."

Gee, but, what about the "Public Option?" You can actually have health insurance for little or no money. So why the fuck would one go to jail for not buying an artificially inflated policy from one of the insurance companies donating big money to 'Member who is Rank, Dave Camp' charge $15K when you can get it for almost nothing?

ELVIS

11-07-2009, 11:12 PM

What are you rambling about ??

FORD

11-07-2009, 11:27 PM

I do NOT endorse any bill with mandatory corporate insurance in it.

That said, it apparently just passed the house.

kwame k

11-08-2009, 12:05 AM

Looks like it did, FORD.....not a big fan of any type of mandatory but will what and see what really becomes of this.

Nitro Express

11-08-2009, 12:28 AM

Let's hope the senate votes it down.

FORD

11-08-2009, 12:30 AM

I was gonna vote on a bill, but then I got high.....

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Big Train

11-08-2009, 12:47 PM

Stuff like that is just bad PR , especially in a recession. Someone will be threatened with jail time, or be sentenced and someone like Hannity will be there to run with it for weeks. She keeps this shit up, goodbye majority.

Nickdfresh

11-08-2009, 08:19 PM

Except this is yet another example of Elvis posting official site suck dick data of a politician...

When you're done blowing bribe taking politicians by posting their propaganda, let us know...

Big Train

11-08-2009, 09:24 PM

Nitro Express

11-08-2009, 09:41 PM

Not really, it is in the bill no?

There are significant grounds there for a legal challenge, as never before has anyone been required to buy something as a condition of being a citizen. That's a fundamental operating change in our society.

The counter argument of "well you have to buy car ins." doesn't really hold, since that is not a fundamental right to drive. To be required to buy something to be a citizen in good standing is entirely new.

Basically the gun to our heads is the government and what we are forced to buy is the corporation. This should raise a red flag as you said.

What we really need is price caps of catastrophic care. Simplify medical billing (Medicare is a major culpret in these costs). Have a loser pays policy regarding law suits. This needs to be done intelligently and systematically. We don't need to turn the whole system over to the government and special corporate interests.

hideyoursheep

11-08-2009, 09:41 PM

No, you don't have to drive, but try getting around without it.

Nitro Express

11-09-2009, 02:25 AM

No, you don't have to drive, but try getting around without it.

I didn't have a car when I lived in New York City or Hong Kong. I got around fine. Hell, I could get around Hong Kong faster than I can in Seattle stuck in a traffic jam.

Seshmeister

11-09-2009, 07:13 AM

Except this is yet another example of Elvis posting official site suck dick data of a politician...

When you're done blowing bribe taking politicians by posting their propaganda, let us know...

The guy has been bought by the health insurance industry.

Dave Camp - Metavid (http://metavid.org/wiki/Dave_Camp)

Who matters most him, the guys that give him hundreds of thousands every year or the person who can't get medical insurance?

His top 3 donators

Health Professionals $371,791
Insurance $313,279
Pharmaceuticals/Health Products $235,295

And that was before the recent 100s of millions in bribes that have been offered.

ELVIS

11-09-2009, 08:12 AM

Yeah!

The system is screwed before it can begin...

Seshmeister

11-09-2009, 09:46 AM

Hardrock69

11-09-2009, 12:50 PM

WACF

11-09-2009, 12:55 PM

Unreal....

Insurance companies win again.

Seshmeister

11-09-2009, 01:01 PM

Nickdfresh

11-09-2009, 01:47 PM

With a public option for people who can't afford one of the plans, why wouldn't someone sign up?

FORD

11-09-2009, 01:54 PM

ELVIS

11-09-2009, 03:16 PM

Sesh...

The voice of reason...

:elvis:

LoungeMachine

11-09-2009, 03:18 PM

.

The sensible obvious option would be to extend medicare to everyone and if people wanted something better they would be free to keep their insurance but the people that own your politicians can't allow that to happen.

Dennis Kucinich floated that idea years ago...

Medicare Part E [everyone]

It's a no-brainer, which means even ELVIS should understand the merits....

Seshmeister

11-09-2009, 05:18 PM

Looking at his Wikki page Kucinich looks as though he's been right about a lot of stuff.

Nitro Express

11-10-2009, 01:31 PM

It cracks me up that people think the US Government can actually provide decent healthcare. The US Government is broke thanks to the Federal Reserve enabling the politicians to spend, spend, spend. The rich bankers get bailed out and the working class gets screwed. They have outsourced the real production economy and have used monitary manipulation to keep the financial economy going. The US could get real sloppy due to the dollar being the world's reserve currency but that game is up. The rest of the world no longer trusts the dollar.

Once that gig is up the US government can't provide shit including healthcare. Meanwhile the bankers who fucked us Bernie Madoff style want a marxist styled government because once they steal all the real assets that's what they historically bring in. I trust healthcare from the US government as much as I trust it from some Bannana Republic dictator.

What's the next scheme? We are going to buy a GM car?

Nitro Express

11-10-2009, 01:36 PM

Most Americans are owned by the bank. Their homes are owned by the bank. Their cars are owned by the bank. They owe on credit cards big time. The banks also own the government now and they own where most people work. Get it? Now the paper money that empowers the banks is becoming worthless and they are losing their paper power. They know this so now they have to grab REAL power. Political power. Which it doesn't matter if the state owns everything Marxists style because as long as they are in control who gives a fuck? One reason China has always given David Rockefeller a hard on. As George Carlin pointed out. We have owners. They own our ass. Unless you have equity, you don't have shit.

Nitro Express

11-10-2009, 01:45 PM

So actually none of the good sounding legislation is going to do a thing for you. Your healthcare costs won't change but it empowers the government to come after you if you don't play their game. So actually you lose freedom of choice based on a false promise. You doctor loses the freedom to provide free healthcare out of the goodness of his heart because that will be against the law. You will be forced to pay for your healthcare on their terms or go to jail. Nice. I can't believe people want this shit.

Nitro Express

11-10-2009, 01:51 PM

There is no real public option in the house bill. Jellyfish Pelosi and Steny WHORE let them strip it out. Instead, they have some weak piece of shit (probably controlled by the insurance nazis, so it's not even public) that maybe 2% of the uninsured MIGHT be able to get around 2015 or so.

And the Senate bill is even worse. The House bill was supposed to be the better of the two. :(

I'm glad you see the truth. These people can't be trusted. Of course the current pricing in the system is obscene but is consolidating control of it over to a bunch of crooks the answer? Basically the economy is shot, the dollar is doomed, and all we have left is our Constitutional Rights. We sell those out in these desperate times we have NOTHING. We need to turn on the bankers, run them out, arrest them for fraud, and take our government back. Then we can work on the long process of rebuilding the US economy but if we get duped by these assholes, we lose EVERYTHING.

Nitro Express

11-10-2009, 01:57 PM

When Obama talked in Montana about healthcare he actually said the insurance companies were all for it. What popped into my head is the guy just showed us his hand. I mean Obama or Pelosi are both such lying corporate whores. They will thank you for your vote by stabbing you in the back. With Obama we are getting McCain styled foreign policy and forced big pharma/big insurance health care. It's actually the biggest Republican nightmare a real "for the people" Democrat could think of.

Big Train

11-10-2009, 02:09 PM

Interview with the President: Jail Time for Those without Health Care Insurance? - Political Punch (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/interview-with-the-president-jail-time-for-those-without-health-care-insurance.html)

I mean wow...no hesitation on the "everyone has to buy ins" BS...

During an exclusive interview with ABC News’ Jake Tapper today, President Obama said that penalties are appropriate for people who try to “free ride” the health care system but stopped short of endorsing the threat of jail time for those who refuse to pay a fine for not having insurance.

“What I think is appropriate is that in the same way that everybody has to get auto insurance and if you don't, you're subject to some penalty, that in this situation, if you have the ability to buy insurance, it's affordable and you choose not to do so, forcing you and me and everybody else to subsidize you, you know, there's a thousand dollar hidden tax that families all across America are -- are burdened by because of the fact that people don't have health insurance, you know, there's nothing wrong with a penalty.”

Under the House bill those who can afford to buy insurance and don’t’ pay a fine. If the refuse to pay that fine there’s a threat – as with a lot of tax fines – of jail time. The Senate removed that provision in the Senate Finance Committee.

Mr. Obama said penalties have to be high enough for people to not game the system, but it’s also important to not be “so punitive” that people who are having a hard time find themselves suddenly worse off, thus why hardship exemptions have been built in the legislation.

“I think the general broad principle is simply that people who are paying for their health insurance aren't subsidizing folks who simply choose not to until they get sick and then suddenly they expect free health insurance. That's -- that's basic concept of responsibility that I think most Americans abide by,” Mr. Obama said, “penalties are appropriate for people who try to free ride the system and force others to pay for their health insurance.”

The President said that he didn’t think the question over the appropriateness of possible jail time is the “biggest question” the House and Senate are facing right now.

Nickdfresh

11-10-2009, 03:45 PM

And. So?

Big Train

11-10-2009, 04:00 PM

You'd think he would have a more well thought out position (provided by Axelrod) on this legally dicey and electorate angering point.

But yea, so what...

FORD

11-10-2009, 04:07 PM

The only way for a mandate to be fair is if they expand Medicare (i.e. a single payer system) and all the money paid in is going to that system itself, not to shareholders and CEOs.

Some piece of shit who makes $57,000 a fucking HOUR doesn't need my money.

Nickdfresh

11-10-2009, 04:08 PM

You'd think he would have a more well thought out position (provided by Axelrod) on this legally dicey and electorate angering point.

But yea, so what...

I'll let you know mine when you let us know what yours is...

Big Train

11-10-2009, 04:34 PM

OK Axelrod,

Mine is that it is not an enforceable provision and would be challenged in court and thrown out. And it is bad PR.

And yours?

Nickdfresh

11-10-2009, 04:46 PM

OK Axelrod,

Mine is that it is not an enforceable provision and would be challenged in court and thrown out. And it is bad PR.

And yours?

Who the fuck is "Axelrod?" David Axelrod?"

How has it worked in Mass?

Big Train

11-10-2009, 05:36 PM

Do you read the posts prior to the current one, or do you just freak the fuck out, completely unaware of what was said before?

How has it worked in Mass. Mixed results at best and Romney was an idiot for going in that direction.

Nickdfresh

11-10-2009, 06:03 PM

Do you read the posts prior to the current one, or do you just freak the fuck out, completely unaware of what was said before?

I'm pretty clearly not the the one "freak(ing) the fuck out" here, Nancy...

That would involve projection....

How has it worked in Mass. Mixed results at best and Romney was an idiot for going in that direction.

Mixed results, maybe. But Mittens was your best GOP candidate last election cycle, and mixed results is still better than the status quo fail....

Big Train

11-10-2009, 06:18 PM

Read from post 32 on...we can wait. Your freakout was "Who the fuck, David Axelrod".

And for the record, I'm not republican. Something I've mentioned to you (and yea it's not your problem to remember) countless times , so you might want to stop projecting so much yourself champ.

Nickdfresh

11-10-2009, 06:29 PM

Read from post 32 on...we can wait. Your freakout was "Who the fuck, David Axelrod".

I asked a simple fucking question. Am I David Fucking Axelrod or not?

I think you're the one "freaking out," Sarah...

And for the record, I'm not republican. Something I've mentioned to you (and yea it's not your problem to remember) countless times , so you might want to stop projecting so much yourself champ.

Oh, oh-kay. Will do! Yet you still voted for Bush.

Big Train

11-10-2009, 07:10 PM

I asked a simple fucking question. Am I David Fucking Axelrod or not?

No, you are a fucking idiot.

I think you're the one "freaking out," Sarah...

Am I Sarah Palin, simple fucking question. See how stupid that sounds..

Oh, oh-kay. Will do! Yet you still voted for Bush.

And I voted for Nader, twice. I'd say I'm about even. Funny how you can remember my voting record, but not my party affiliation.

Nitro Express

11-11-2009, 12:24 AM

It's pretty sick if you think about it.

The health care companies pay the politicians to do what they want and then pass the bill on to the US people. All these millions being used to pay off the politicians is money that's come from your premiums.

The premiums will now go up to cover all the increased lobbying over the last year.

Game set and match!

Basically everything is being put on the backs of the US taxpayer. We are paying for the bankers bailout and they turn around an screw us and we are paying for the bribes. Like I said before, I would be in favor of a government ran system if we could trust the government. So we have this mess while the US Dollar is doomed to fail and the government is broke. So basically we are wiped out already but these bankers aren't done with us yet. They want to take us over politically and there's this thing called the US Constitution in their way. If we lose that the US will become a Marxist state with the people being slaves to the state. This is what's going on. The bankers are out of monitary gimmicks and their paper system is going down. If the dollar goes it will take down the Euro and Yen with it so this is a global situation. So what is going to be the reserve? Are countries going to go isolationist again? I mean we are sitting of a real powder keg now. The bankers know it.

Nitro Express

11-11-2009, 12:31 AM

And I voted for Nader, twice. I'd say I'm about even. Funny how you can remember my voting record, but not my party affiliation.

I voted for Nader as well. He was the only choice on the ballot that seemed not to loath the American people. I saw through Obama from the get go. I thought he was a poser backed by the bankers. I was right. McCain was going to feed the military industrial complex and we all know Sarah was an attention whore. I interned for a marketing firm and learned a bit about public relations and marketing and political campaigns are all that. Obama just looked like a bottle of Pepsi that would give you a stomach ache and McCain looked like some old denture creme. I mean it was pretty pathetic, the country had serious problems and there was nobody who had a chance of winning that would be any better than monkey boy. I hope we have better choices in 2012 that is if we can keep the country from falling apart by then.

Nitro Express

11-11-2009, 12:38 AM

While I am certain our healthcare system sucks fucking ass (Americans pay twice as much for healthcare as any other country on Earth), I think the idiot that came up with the notion that people who do not sign up for health insurance should be jailed should be shot.

Did the cocksuckers that came up with that idea grow up in Communist-era Soviet Union?

IF such a thing becomes law, that is almost enough to make me shut off my health insurance, then proclaim publicly that I refuse to pay for insurance, just so the fuckasses will arrest me.

I predict someone will do that (again, if it becomes law), and upon having their day in court, I would bet that part of the law would be found unconstitutional somehow.

You CANNOT FORCE someone to buy health insurance if they do not want it!

PERIOD! END OF FUCKING STORY!

Yup. My question did most the fucks who passed this Marxist piece of shit bill even read the thing? Another thing is if the Senate passes this, it's still unconstitutional and any law that goes against the US Constitution is null and void. If this shit passes it will only cause a revolt. Maybe that's what the assholes want. Maybe they want to stir the nest so they can use The Patriot Act to clamp down. All I know is if they push it, I'm going to be like John Hancock and give the king a big middle finger and come and get me asshole! What's next? Forcing us to buy a GM car?

Nitro Express

11-11-2009, 12:46 AM

So then we should throw all the illegal aliens getting a free ride on our healthcare in jail and/or fine them? Or is the jail time just for the tax paying citizens?

Satan

11-11-2009, 02:44 AM

No, we should throw all the Insurance CEOs and Wall Street Criminals in prison. And then send them out in chain gangs to do the jobs the illegal aliens are doing now.

Nickdfresh

11-11-2009, 03:44 AM

And I voted for Nader, twice. I'd say I'm about even. Funny how you can remember my voting record, but not my party affiliation.

Oooh, someone pissed in your caviar tonight. And Nader? you are a dumbass!

Nickdfresh

11-11-2009, 03:47 AM

Yup. My question did most the fucks who passed this Marxist piece of shit bill even read the thing?

Have you taken time out from your Bilderberg and Trilateral Commission bullshit to actually read anything on Marxism?

Because I'm pretty sure there is still a big market for private insurers. They just don't get to maintain a parochial system that is essentially an oligopoly...

ELVIS

11-11-2009, 09:01 AM

Regardless of what the current system is, it grew out of the free marketplace and the Government should not be permitted to step in and make their own rules. The same goes for the credit card business...

:elvis:

Big Train

11-11-2009, 10:47 AM

Oooh, someone pissed in your caviar tonight. And Nader? you are a dumbass!

Not at all...just pointing out how cunty you can be sometimes. Someone must have pissed in your gruel..

Why am I a dumbass for voting for Nader? I 'threw my vote away'? Because I didn't want Obama (and seeing what he has done, or not done, I feel correct in that decision) or Clinton Part II. Nor did I see the other side of Romney or McCain as being a good choice either.

I voted for the most likely third party candidate with the idea that my vote would help to build a viable third party. Which a lot of people scoff at, but yet remain completely dedicated to the very same parties that let them down (i.e. Ford and the Democrats disappointing him on healthcare).

ELVIS

11-11-2009, 11:02 AM

I voted for Ron Paul...

Nickdfresh

11-11-2009, 11:03 AM

Not at all...just pointing out how cunty you can be sometimes. Someone must have pissed in your gruel..

Dude, you'd win first prize in the Miss Roth Army Cunty cuntest, dick...

Why am I a dumbass for voting for Nader? I 'threw my vote away'? Because I didn't want Obama (and seeing what he has done, or not done, I feel correct in that decision) or Clinton Part II. Nor did I see the other side of Romney or McCain as being a good choice either.

Nader's a nut job...

I voted for the most likely third party candidate with the idea that my vote would help to build a viable third party. Which a lot of people scoff at, but yet remain completely dedicated to the very same parties that let them down (i.e. Ford and the Democrats disappointing him on healthcare).

The Green Party is your idea of the third party? Really? You hate what you derisively term "socialism," and then vote for a quasi-socialist party...

ELVIS

11-11-2009, 11:08 AM

Please describe your "Nader's a nutjob" stance...

Big Train

11-11-2009, 12:15 PM

Dude, you'd win first prize in the Miss Roth Army Cunty cuntest, dick...

Maybe when your nearly six year reign of terror ends Perez..

Nader's a nut job...

yes he is, but he does have a few sound ideas.

The Green Party is your idea of the third party? Really? You hate what you derisively term "socialism," and then vote for a quasi-socialist party...

Champ, try a little harder at the "readin" sometime ok? I said to build a "viable third party". I didn't say which way that party had to lean. I believe the only way to insert more actual ideas and people into the process is to get as many alternative parties viable as possible. Keep sucking from the DNC teat though (although yes, I know you say your republican, how I don't know)...

Seshmeister

11-11-2009, 12:27 PM

So then we should throw all the illegal aliens getting a free ride on our healthcare in jail and/or fine them? Or is the jail time just for the tax paying citizens?

People always turn on the immigrants when times get hard.

Statistically even the illegal immigrants will generate more wealth than they take out of a public system.

For a start most of them are young and working.

The small cost of their health care as a percentage of the whole is a side issue used as a distraction.

Big Train

11-12-2009, 03:25 PM

standin

11-12-2009, 03:55 PM

What part of sign up health care or buy your own insurance exemption do you not understand?

You can choose to not participate in traditional health care.

Big Train

11-12-2009, 04:13 PM

Big Train

11-12-2009, 04:15 PM

People always turn on the immigrants when times get hard.

Statistically even the illegal immigrants will generate more wealth than they take out of a public system.

For a start most of them are young and working.

The small cost of their health care as a percentage of the whole is a side issue used as a distraction.

Sesh, you should LA County's books sometime. The math doesn't agree with your sentiments.

Seshmeister

11-12-2009, 04:21 PM

Maybe not in pockets but overall across the whole country.

ELVIS

11-12-2009, 04:41 PM

What I don't understand is the "go to jail" part for not filling out your paperwork. Can you explain that one to me?

You do realize the government has been building FEMA or re-education camps all acoss the country...?

http://www.ethanknox.com/FEMA%20Camps.jpg

standin

11-12-2009, 04:41 PM

Oh I understand it just fine thanks.

What I don't understand is the "go to jail" part for not filling out your paperwork. Can you explain that one to me? This isn't an IRS, someone owes situation, this is fucking clerical matter that has jail consequences.

Or a gun to your head if you chose to pay as you go, because "others are paying the bill for you" somehow.

yea, it does have fraud involved.

When you go to get medical care and you have not signed up for non-standardized insurance already, you get the standardized insurance automatically. If to find out after, you should not have been on the standardized insurance because of your refusal, then you are defrauding the system. The moment you refuse health care coverage or standardized-insurance is when you commit the act of fraud, if you want to make arrangements to pay an insurance company reimbursement for your bills that is your choice. Arrange for that choice. You can choose not to have health care coverage, by not going to the health care establishments.

standin

11-12-2009, 04:54 PM

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/09/columns/wtwb/01/dec-08-y.gif

:biggrin:

Big Train

11-12-2009, 05:02 PM

yea, it does have fraud involved.

When you go to get medical care and you have not signed up for non-standardized insurance already, you get the standardized insurance automatically. If to find out after, you should not have been on the standardized insurance because of your refusal, then you are defrauding the system. The moment you refuse health care coverage or standardized-insurance is when you commit the act of fraud, if you want to make arrangements to pay an insurance company reimbursement for your bills that is your choice. Arrange for that choice. You can choose not to have health care coverage, by not going to the health care establishments.

I could just claim I'm not a citizen, since they can't verify, thanks to the Hispanic caucaus. No harm, no foul. It would be nice if they would be this balls to the wall about things like immigration.

Big Train

11-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Maybe not in pockets but overall across the whole country.

If states count as pockets, maybe your right. It does add up to a serious amount of money.

standin

11-12-2009, 05:05 PM

I could just claim I'm not a citizen, since they can't verify, thanks to the Hispanic caucaus. No harm, no foul.

That also would be fraud.

Big Train

11-12-2009, 05:10 PM

Right, I've just shown you a very easy and obvious way the system WILL be gamed, so doesn't this put us back at square one (i.e. "Paying for others care who wouldn't pay currently"), defeating the purpose of mandatory signups.

standin

11-12-2009, 05:19 PM

If you want to denounce your citizenship, I think that is a right you should have.

You want to deny you are an American citizen to commit fraud against the medical community, I do not think any person would disagree, that such acts are shunned among American society.

To cheat your doctor and those that care for your health, simply because you want to cheat is a shameful act.

Big Train

11-12-2009, 05:25 PM

I don't disagree, I'm saying that is HOW individuals will do it. I'm saying if we were SERIOUS about this, we would not allow Congress to block something as simple and direct as verification. PC Culture at it's finest.

Why is every time I describe how something might be done, you assume I'm saying I would do it?

standin

11-12-2009, 05:33 PM

Forensic accounting is an developing market. Fraud cost companies, governments and people trillions.

What is the motive to deny citizenship? Simply to defraud the dotors?

There is no motive.

~
Got a meeting, BBL.

Nickdfresh

11-12-2009, 08:19 PM

Champ, try a little harder at the "readin" sometime ok? I said to build a "viable third party".

Kay' Hoss, right after you hone your writin' skills a little...

"Viable third party?" Yeah, right, really voting with your conscience there, eh Abe? I mean, most people that would lay claim to some intellectual pretension of trying to 'break the two-party hold over the American system' might actually at least have the moral consistency of voting for their own belief system as opposed to voting for hippie bed-wetters that are very contrary to any of the stated political views you've ever espoused with some few notable exceptions such as your take on the environment and reducing the need for fossil fuels (which I do give you credit for).

I mean, wouldn't your statement have a little consistency if you were voting for a libertarian or conservative moment rather than one seen as largely as only sapping the strength of the Democrats?

I didn't say which way that party had to lean. I believe the only way to insert more actual ideas and people into the process is to get as many alternative parties viable as possible. Keep sucking from the DNC teat though (although yes, I know you say your republican, how I don't know)...

But they're not ideas you even like, agree with, or even consider...

Nickdfresh

11-12-2009, 08:21 PM

People always turn on the immigrants when times get hard.
....

Which is interesting --as immigration is way, way down with the economy...

Big Train

11-12-2009, 08:58 PM

Kay' Hoss, right after you hone your writin' skills a little...

Next year, when you get to fifth grade, they will have books that will use bigger words. You will learn about irony.

"Viable third party?" Yeah, right, really voting with your conscience there, eh Abe? I mean, most people that would lay claim to some intellectual pretension of trying to 'break the two-party hold over the American system' might actually at least have the moral consistency of voting for their own belief system as opposed to voting for hippie bed-wetters that are very contrary to any of the stated political views you've ever espoused with some few notable exceptions such as your take on the environment and reducing the need for fossil fuels (which I do give you credit for).

I mean, wouldn't your statement have a little consistency if you were voting for a libertarian or conservative moment rather than one seen as largely as only sapping the strength of the Democrats?

But they're not ideas you even like, agree with, or even consider...

Explain to me the moral problems about a math problem please, I'm unsure how that works.

Since the party I voted for had no chance of winning the overall election, their ideas (whether I agreed or not) didn't really matter. It was about getting the party closest to five percent (which would then qualify it for federal matching funds in future elections) up and running, which would spur more growth in alternative parties overall, as it would seem less a "kooky" thing to do. If the Green Party were up to 30%, they would be a threat in EVERY election. At that point, I'd have to weigh whether I agreed with any of their stances (on domestic issues, I have at points).

Basically, I see it as the shortest way to get to a true party I could agree (Morally naturally) with, to splinter the two party system with any wedge possible. The Green Party votes serves this purpose.

There is no problem, since most "indepedent voters" consider themselves conservative. The precious DNC will not suffer much from my efforts I'm afraid.

Nickdfresh

11-13-2009, 01:20 PM

Explain to me the moral problems about a math problem please, I'm unsure how that works.

I didn't say it was a moral problem. I just said you and your rationale are full of shit and completely ineffective, which is fine. Not really immoral so much. I really don't give a fuck how you vote, I only bring it up since you seem to worry about everyone elses.

Since the party I voted for had no chance of winning the overall election, their ideas (whether I agreed or not) didn't really matter. It was about getting the party closest to five percent (which would then qualify it for federal matching funds in future elections) up and running, which would spur more growth in alternative parties overall, as it would seem less a "kooky" thing to do. If the Green Party were up to 30%, they would be a threat in EVERY election. At that point, I'd have to weigh whether I agreed with any of their stances (on domestic issues, I have at points).

Basically, I see it as the shortest way to get to a true party I could agree (Morally naturally) with, to splinter the two party system with any wedge possible. The Green Party votes serves this purpose.

There is no problem, since most "indepedent voters" consider themselves conservative. The precious DNC will not suffer much from my efforts I'm afraid.

Firstly, I clearly stated that one should vote their conscience, not just some equation that won't work anyway as the system is fixed towards a two-party state for better or for worse. So voting for these one-hit wonders really means fuckall as you might as well be voting for the Whigs--or the Bull Moose Party--as the Greens. The only way it will change is when the two parties decide that they've had enough of having "big tents" or of drumming out candidates from their parties based on bullshit litmus tests.

And I wouldn't worry about the DNC and independents--since the DNC is now inhabited by moderates and center-rightists that have taken over the old Eisenhower/Rockefeller Republicans (what I actually consider myself to be). They've left you with reactionary buffoons who don't understand their own ideological premises, religious fanatics, and intellectuals bent on practicing elitist social Darwinism...

Big Train

11-13-2009, 01:49 PM

I didn't say it was a moral problem. I just said you and your rationale are full of shit and completely ineffective, which is fine. Not really immoral so much. I really don't give a fuck how you vote, I only bring it up since you seem to worry about everyone elses.

Thanks for the projections. I didn't say that my strategy was a winning strategy (unless a mass of people tried to do it), I said it works for me. It's my vote and I do with it what I want.

Firstly, I clearly stated that one should vote their conscience, not just some equation that won't work anyway as the system is fixed towards a two-party state for better or for worse. So voting for these one-hit wonders really means fuckall as you might as well be voting for the Whigs--or the Bull Moose Party--as the Greens. The only way it will change is when the two parties decide that they've had enough of having "big tents" or of drumming out candidates from their parties based on bullshit litmus tests.

And I wouldn't worry about the DNC and independents--since the DNC is now inhabited by moderates and center-rightists that have taken over the old Eisenhower/Rockefeller Republicans (what I actually consider myself to be). They've left you with reactionary buffoons who don't understand their own ideological premises, religious fanatics, and intellectuals bent on practicing elitist social Darwinism...

"Wasting my vote", as the theory goes, yup I've heard it from everyone I know. Your bullshit analysis really means NOBODY's vote counts unless they go along to get along. If my consience clearly states that I can't vote for a Republican or a Democrat, as it currently does , am I not to vote? Or am I to find a way to try to constructively use my vote? I chose to try to use my vote, however meaningless it may be to you in the big picture, to induce the changes I believe need to be made. Whether or not that meets your moral criteria, I don't care.