The CHIC Guevarra thread!

[GAR]

http://www.thechestore.com/

I don't know what to say except WTF?

Che was a badguy, wasn't he? Why are people so retarded!

I don't get it. What does it mean when you buy and wear a Che Guevarra teeshirt: what are these people saying?

- I wish to kill you.
- I wish to silence your music.
- I want to take your shit and give it to my minions.
- I will drag your unarmed ass out of your home and shoot you in view of your family.

I keep seeing these shirts, thanks to Rage Against The Machine, and people don't understand even what Che was about.

So why do it?

[GAR]

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

[sadaist]

http://www.thechestore.com/

I don't know what to say except WTF?

Che was a badguy, wasn't he? Why are people so retarded!

I don't get it. What does it mean when you buy and wear a Che Guevarra teeshirt: what are these people saying?

- I wish to kill you.
- I wish to silence your music.
- I want to take your shit and give it to my minions.
- I will drag your unarmed ass out of your home and shoot you in view of your family.

I keep seeing these shirts, thanks to Rage Against The Machine, and people don't understand even what Che was about.

So why do it?

People do it to be cool, be trendy, be with the "in" crowd...(I'm guessing). But an argument for exactly what you said above could be made for people who wear the American Flag on a t-shirt. It just depends which side of the argument you are on whether you view something as evil or a hero. But I agree with the WTF mentality with these kids today wearing Che clothing. No different than wearing an Osama Bin Laden t-shirt. Give it another 20 years before that trend hits.

Che was a murderer and died a pussy begging for his life while pissing his pants.

[Nickdfresh]

People do it to be cool, be trendy, be with the "in" crowd...(I'm guessing). But an argument for exactly what you said above could be made for people who wear the American Flag on a t-shirt. It just depends which side of the argument you are on whether you view something as evil or a hero. But I agree with the WTF mentality with these kids today wearing Che clothing. No different than wearing an Osama Bin Laden t-shirt. Give it another 20 years before that trend hits.

Che was a murderer and died a pussy begging for his life while pissing his pants.

Um, no he wasn't. If you actually read about him, you'd find he was a brilliant military tactician and endured a lot of deprivations to become one of the seminal military, revolutionary figures of the 20th century. He was respected by friend and foe alike. Of his execution:


Capture and execution

Félix Rodríguez, a Cuban exile turned CIA Special Activities Division operative, advised Bolivian troops during the hunt for Guevara in Bolivia.[177] In addition, the 2007 documentary My Enemy's Enemy, directed by Kevin Macdonald, alleges that Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie aka "The Butcher of Lyon", advised and possibly helped the CIA orchestrate Guevara's eventual capture.[178]

On October 7, an informant apprised the Bolivian Special Forces of the location of Guevara's guerrilla encampment in the Yuro ravine. They encircled the area with 1,800 soldiers, and Guevara was wounded and taken prisoner while leading a detachment with Simeón Cuba Sarabia. Che biographer Jon Lee Anderson reports Bolivian Sergeant Bernardino Huanca's account: that a twice wounded Guevara, his gun rendered useless, shouted "Do not shoot! I am Che Guevara and worth more to you alive than dead."[179]

Guevara was tied up and taken to a dilapidated mud schoolhouse in the nearby village of La Higuera on the night of October 7. For the next day-and-a-half, Guevara refused to be interrogated by Bolivian officers and would only speak quietly to Bolivian soldiers. One of those Bolivian soldiers, helicopter pilot Jaime Nino de Guzman, describes Che as looking "dreadful". According to Guzman, Guevara was shot through the right calf, his hair was matted with dirt, his clothes were shredded, and his feet were covered in rough leather sheaths. Despite his haggard appearance, he recounts that "Che held his head high, looked everyone straight in the eyes and asked only for something to smoke." De Guzman states that he "took pity" and gave him a small bag of tobacco for his pipe, with Guevara then smiling and thanking him.[180] Later on the night of October 8, Guevara, despite having his hands tied, kicked Bolivian Officer Espinosa into the wall, after the officer entered the schoolhouse in order to snatch Guevara's pipe from his mouth as a souvenir.[181] In another instance of defiance, Guevara spat in the face of Bolivian Rear Admiral Ugarteche shortly before his execution.[181]

The following morning on October 9, Guevara asked to see the "maestra" (school teacher) of the village, 22-year-old Julia Cortez. Cortez would later state that she found Guevara to be an "agreeable looking man with a soft and ironic glance" and that during their conversation she found herself "unable to look him in the eye", because his "gaze was unbearable, piercing, and so tranquil."[181] During their short conversation, Guevara pointed out to Cortez the poor condition of the schoolhouse, stating that it was "anti-pedagogical" to expect campesino students to be educated there, while "government officials drive Mercedes cars" ... declaring "that's what we are fighting against."[181]

Later that morning on October 9, Bolivian President René Barrientos ordered that Guevara be killed. The order was relayed by Félix Rodríguez despite the US government’s desire that Guevara be taken to Panama.[182] The executioner was Mario Terán, a half-drunken sergeant in the Bolivian army who had requested to shoot Che on the basis of the fact that three of his friends from B Company, all named "Mario", had been killed in an earlier firefight with Guevara's band of guerrillas.[10] To make the bullet wounds appear consistent with the story the government planned to release to the public, Félix Rodríguez ordered Terán to aim carefully to make it appear that Guevara had been killed in action during a clash with the Bolivian army.[183] Gary Prado, a Bolivian soldier who was with the group that captured Guevara, said that the reasons Barrientos ordered the immediate execution of Guevara is so there would be no possibility that Guevara would escape from prison, and also so there would be no drama in regard to a trial.[184]

Moments before Guevara was executed he was asked if he was thinking about his own immortality. "No", he replied, "I'm thinking about the immortality of the revolution."[185] When Sergeant Terán entered the hut, Che Guevara then told his executioner, "I know you've come to kill me. Shoot, coward! You are only going to kill a man!"[186] Terán hesitated, then opened fire with his semiautomatic rifle, hitting Guevara in the arms and legs. Guevara writhed on the ground, apparently biting one of his wrists to avoid crying out. Terán then fired several times again, wounding him fatally in the chest at 1:10 pm, according to Rodríguez.[187] In all, Guevara was shot nine times. This included five times in the legs, once in the right shoulder and arm, once in the chest, and finally in the throat.[181]

Months earlier, during his last public declaration to the Tricontinental Conference,[147] Guevara wrote his own epitaph, stating "Wherever death may surprise us, let it be welcome, provided that this our battle cry may have reached some receptive ear and another hand may be extended to wield our weapons."[188]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che_Guevara#Capture_and_execution

[Seshmeister]

I don't get it.

I really don't think that most Americans have any idea of the things that were done in their name by their government in Central and South America over the last 50 or 60 years.

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.thechestore.com/

I don't know what to say except WTF?

Che was a badguy, wasn't he? Why are people so retarded!

I don't get it. What does it mean when you buy and wear a Che Guevarra teeshirt: what are these people saying?

- I wish to kill you.
- I wish to silence your music.
- I want to take your shit and give it to my minions.
- I will drag your unarmed ass out of your home and shoot you in view of your family.

I keep seeing these shirts, thanks to Rage Against The Machine, and people don't understand even what Che was about.

So why do it?

The irony being that Che would probably vomit and his handless corpse would turn over in its grave (if he had hands!) if Guevara knew of his little iconic cuntribution to consumerist, capitalist culture...

[hambon4lif]

The irony being that Che would probably vomit and his handless corpse would turn over in its grave (if he had hands!) if Guevara knew of his little iconic cuntribution to consumerist, capitalist culture...Not only that, but he most likely would've found Rage Against The Machines music(?) as annoying as I do.....

[hambon4lif]

"Man truly achieves his full human condition when he produces without being compelled by the physical necessity of selling himself as a commodity"

"Above all, always be capable of feeling deeply any injustice commited against anyone, anywhere in the world. This is the most beautiful quality in a revolutionary"

Che

[sadaist]

If you actually read about him, you'd find he was a brilliant military tactician and endured a lot of deprivations to become one of the seminal military, revolutionary figures of the 20th century.


Same argument could be made for Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Bin Laden etc... It just depends which side you are viewing it from.

[Nickdfresh]

Same argument could be made for Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Bin Laden etc... It just depends which side you are viewing it from.

Um, Hitler had a somewhat distinguished war record in WWI as an Austrian Corporal serving in the German Army, but many of his decisions and his constant hounding of his general staff are nothing short of catastrophic for Germany in WWII. Lenin never did any actual fighting to my knowledge. Stalin hid under his bed during the first few weeks as the Wehrmacht sliced through the Soviet armed forces he thoroughly gutted of competent personnel via purges. Castro was clearly second fiddle to Che, and knew it regarding his military qualifications. And Guevara never committed a wanton atrocity on the scale of Bin Laden's al Qaida...

I'm not saying that Che wasn't a ruthless killer, executioner, and combat commander bordering on fanatic terrorist. But his victims were limited in numbers, and many of them were prick whores that served a prick whore corrupt military dictatorship largely serving at the behest of the US mob. If you want to condemn Guevara, fine. But for the most part, he engaged in direct combat against corrupt bastards and avoided wanton civilian slaughter...

[sadaist]

If you want to condemn Guevara, fine.


I don't necessarily want to condemn the man. That's not for me to be the ultimate judge. I just don't like how high school & college kids wear this guy on their clothes like he is Armani/Versace/or the Air Jordan Jumpman logo without having a clue what the fuck. It's the same thing when I see kids with a Von Dutch hat on.

I know, a lot of this stems from me getting older and having that "damn kids today" attitude. And I really try to just live & let live. Let them be stupid. God knows I was at that age. And in another 25 years I'll look back to this point in time and think how stupid I was now. Bah! Fuck it. I guess the lesson here is relax & enjoy the fucking ride.

$0.02

[Nitro Express]

I really don't think that most Americans have any idea of the things that were done in their name by their government in Central and South America over the last 50 or 60 years.

More than you think. The coupe in Chile and putting Pinochet into power is probably the best known infamouse meddling. My sister lived in Peru and I've been down to central and south America many times. You have to be there for awhile on the street so to speak to get it. They don't teach reality in the classroom nor do you read or see it in the mainstream.

The CIA was a s double edged sword. Sure it helped fight the cold war but so much was done in the name of money and greed. Bullshit like national security and spreading democracy are the tried and true cover for US imperialism that usually only bennefits a few elites behind the scenes.

[Nitro Express]

I think Che is trendy because he's the neo symbol of fighting corporate greed. Yes, the capatilists raped latin America good but so did the communists. In reality, both sides are dirty but two wrongs don't make a right. Revolutions rarely bring good. They usually bring in the next dictator. George Washington and the American revolution being a rare exception. When Napoleon took power and abused it, he even said the people of France wanted him to be George Washington.

[GAR]

I really don't think that most Americans have any idea of the things that were done in their name by their government in Central and South America over the last 50 or 60 years.

It put bananas and coffee on your table, dinnit..

[GAR]

I know, a lot of this stems from me getting older and having that "damn kids today" attitude.

I'll disagree with the changing times changing the record in spite of hip populatrity, overthrow socialism is still that no matter what.

[Nickdfresh]

I don't necessarily want to condemn the man. That's not for me to be the ultimate judge. I just don't like how high school & college kids wear this guy on their clothes like he is Armani/Versace/or the Air Jordan Jumpman logo without having a clue what the fuck. It's the same thing when I see kids with a Von Dutch hat on.

I know, a lot of this stems from me getting older and having that "damn kids today" attitude. And I really try to just live & let live. Let them be stupid. God knows I was at that age. And in another 25 years I'll look back to this point in time and think how stupid I was now. Bah! Fuck it. I guess the lesson here is relax & enjoy the fucking ride.

$0.02

To tell you the truth I haven't noticed a Che face tee in a long time, maybe over ten years or so. I know he was all the "rage" in the 1990s, but I think interest has waned over the last decade. But I'm not out of college campuses everyday, so what do I know?

[BigBadBrian]

Besides being a coward and an outright genocidal murderer, Che was also a racist:

“The Negro is indolent and spends his money on frivolities and booze, whereas the European is forward-looking, organized and intelligent.” - Che Guevara

“The negro has maintained his racial purity by his well known habit of avoiding baths” (as if Che had room to talk) - Che Guevara

“Mexicans are a rabble of illiterate Indians.” - Che Guevara

AND THE EPITOME OF HIS COWARDICE:

“Don’t Shoot! I’m Che! I’m worth to you more alive than dead!” The plea was whimpered with a Eddie Haskell-in-front-of June Cleaver-esque smile on Oct. 8th 1967 in Quebrada de Yuro, Bolivia, as Che dropped his fully-loaded weapons. At the time, Che, dragging along his guerrilla charge Willi, was trying to slink away from a firefight when confronted by two Bolivian soldiers.

[Nickdfresh]

Besides being a coward...

You obviously have never read anything about him, haven't read my post, and don't know dick. He was a top notch field commander, regardless of what one thinks of his ideology. Any military analyst will tell you that! He was wounded numerous times and put his money where his mouth was by sharing the deprivations of his troops. Coward? Hardly? Fool? Probably!


...and an outright genocidal murderer,

Again with the bombastic dummy assertions. He never committed anything even close to "genocide." While certainly violated human rights and could be brutal to his marks, he never engaged in mass killing...


Che was also a racist:

“The Negro is indolent and spends his money on frivolities and booze, whereas the European is forward-looking, organized and intelligent.” - Che Guevara

“The negro has maintained his racial purity by his well known habit of avoiding baths” (as if Che had room to talk) - Che Guevara

“Mexicans are a rabble of illiterate Indians.” - Che Guevara

Where exactly are these quotes from?


AND THE EPITOME OF HIS COWARDICE:

“Don’t Shoot! I’m Che! I’m worth to you more alive than dead!” The plea was whimpered with a Eddie Haskell-in-front-of June Cleaver-esque smile on Oct. 8th 1967 in Quebrada de Yuro, Bolivia, as Che dropped his fully-loaded weapons. At the time, Che, dragging along his guerrilla charge Willi, was trying to slink away from a firefight when confronted by two Bolivian soldiers.

Said according to a semi-literate Bolivian soldier with no other confirmation. Even if it is true word for word, why would that make him a coward? And if you bothered to have read one of my posts here, you'd know he hardly died like a coward, dolt...

[Seshmeister]

It put bananas and coffee on your table, dinnit..

Nope.

[chefcraig]

Where exactly are these quotes from?


Good question, and best of luck finding an answer. This entire series of quotes has been attributed to a diary supposedly written by Guevarra around the time of his Congo adventures. Even better, Fidel Castro is alleged to have published them himself in 2009, despite the fact that a book called Che in Africa: Che Guevara's Congo Diary by William Galvez was released in 1999 and did not include a single reference to the quotes. (The pisser is, the Galvez book is not a diary at all, but rather a collection of remembrances by fellow travelers and bits of an unpublished manuscript by Che, a writing that apparently appeared out of thin air.) Yet remarkably, the comments attributed to Guevarra about blacks began appearing about the time that momentum was building in the Obama for President campaign, found in attack columns and blogs slanted against liberals with absolutely zero attribution to a source. In other words, this was a variation of the Willie Horton/Swift Boat routines of disruptive and divisive mud slinging, based on ever more nebulous "facts".

[Seshmeister]

AND THE EPITOME OF HIS COWARDICE:

“Don’t Shoot! I’m Che! I’m worth to you more alive than dead!” The plea was whimpered with a Eddie Haskell-in-front-of June Cleaver-esque smile on Oct. 8th 1967 in Quebrada de Yuro, Bolivia, as Che dropped his fully-loaded weapons. At the time, Che, dragging along his guerrilla charge Willi, was trying to slink away from a firefight when confronted by two Bolivian soldiers.

That's very probably bullshit.

You can't possibly take unsubstantiated evidence from the people that murdered him and then put out pictures of his dead body for propaganda purposes.

Actions speak louder than words and if he was out to keep himself safe or for power or money he had plenty of opportunities to take that path.

[Seshmeister]

Good question, and best of luck finding an answer. This entire series of quotes has been attributed to a diary supposedly written by Guevarra around the time of his Congo adventures. Even better, Fidel Castro is alleged to have published them himself in 2009, despite the fact that a book called Che in Africa: Che Guevara's Congo Diary by William Galvez was released in 1999 and did not include a single reference to the quotes. (The pisser is, the Galvez book is not a diary at all, but rather a collection of remembrances by fellow travelers and bits of an unpublished manuscript by Che, a writing that apparently appeared out of thin air.) Yet remarkably, the comments attributed to Guevarra about blacks began appearing about the time that momentum was building in the Obama for President campaign, found in attack columns and blogs slanted against liberals with absolutely zero attribution to a source. In other words, this was a variation of the Willie Horton/Swift Boat routines of disruptive and divisive mud slinging, based on ever more nebulous "facts".

It's an obvious case where they didn't want to just kill him they wanted to kill the mythology as well.

[kwame k]

Besides being a coward and an outright genocidal murderer, Che was also a racist:

“The Negro is indolent and spends his money on frivolities and booze, whereas the European is forward-looking, organized and intelligent.” - Che Guevara

“The negro has maintained his racial purity by his well known habit of avoiding baths” (as if Che had room to talk) - Che Guevara

“Mexicans are a rabble of illiterate Indians.” - Che Guevara

AND THE EPITOME OF HIS COWARDICE:

“Don’t Shoot! I’m Che! I’m worth to you more alive than dead!” The plea was whimpered with a Eddie Haskell-in-front-of June Cleaver-esque smile on Oct. 8th 1967 in Quebrada de Yuro, Bolivia, as Che dropped his fully-loaded weapons. At the time, Che, dragging along his guerrilla charge Willi, was trying to slink away from a firefight when confronted by two Bolivian soldiers.


Yet he went in front of The United Nations and made this "verified" statement, "Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom?"

[GAR]

Nope.

Quick history toggle for you:

Spanish American War>Panama Canal Zone >United Fruit Company>Chicquita Banana

(filling in further on behalf of FORD's dead bloated corpse: UFC>Chicquita Banana>CIA>Bush1>Bay of Pigs>Che Guevarra

[GAR]

Yet he went in front of The United Nations and made this "verified" statement, "Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom?"

When did the UN drag people in the street, line them up, and assasinate 'em for their opposition? I missed the part where Che's killings made sense or were permitted under Geneva conventions he sought the same protective redress under.

[BigBadBrian]

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fdyxvw-xJIgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Che+guevara+atrocities&source=bl&ots=woujKJoU77&sig=eVu9NsKZK2SyWDr1sYbt85Nw4n8&hl=en&ei=33JDTKDGIIb2swP6zf3JDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

[lesfunk]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vZ9myHhpS9s&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vZ9myHhpS9s&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[Blaze]

When did the UN drag people in the street, line them up, and assasinate 'em for their opposition? I missed the part where Che's killings made sense or were permitted under Geneva conventions he sought the same protective redress under.

Shut the fuck up, Gar.

[Nickdfresh]

When did the UN drag people in the street, line them up, and assasinate 'em for their opposition? I missed the part where Che's killings made sense or were permitted under Geneva conventions he sought the same protective redress under.

His victims had trials, fuckwit....

[Seshmeister]

Quick history toggle for you:

Spanish American War>Panama Canal Zone >United Fruit Company>Chicquita Banana

(filling in further on behalf of FORD's dead bloated corpse: UFC>Chicquita Banana>CIA>Bush1>Bay of Pigs>Che Guevarra

I don't eat bananas

[kwame k]

When did the UN drag people in the street, line them up, and assasinate 'em for their opposition? I missed the part where Che's killings made sense or were permitted under Geneva conventions he sought the same protective redress under.

Your ignore feature's broken, Gary?

Move along Clay, the adults are trying to have a conversation.

[Nitro Express]

I don't eat bananas

No but you eat Costa Rican woman and stick the bananas where Bill Clinton sticks his cigars.

[GAR]

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- wuh.. what's THAT dummy? Didja say something, or something?

[GAR]

I know the Che thing is a college-type deal, which came up about 10 years ago with Rage Against The Machine.

Prior to their appropriation of his face for their TeeShirts, you never saw this stuff.

But, RATM is so 2002, when that band split so did their fans until they reformed, yet now that they did, they can't get back in that ring of Hating America with your Tshirt exclusively, because since the guy's dead nobody can license the image, so everybody's doing it.

Here's another thought: Does a Che Tshirt say "See that I am HISPANIC?" I mean, is this really a racial component here I"m not seeing?

I'm serious, I don't get the Che Guevarra thing.. he wasn't even a good Commie, he sucked cuz he threw down his rifle when he said "fight to the death everyone." I'm not putting a fucking COWARD on chest!

(I might put a chick on my chest who's afraid of her own shadow, but not a Che shirt..)

[Nickdfresh]

Your ignore feature's broken, Gary?

Move along Clay, the adults are trying to have a conversation.

For GAyR...

[Nickdfresh]

I know the Che thing is a college-type deal, which came up about 10 years ago with Rage Against The Machine.

Prior to their appropriation of his face for their TeeShirts, you never saw this stuff.

But, RATM is so 2002, when that band split so did their fans until they reformed, yet now that they did, they can't get back in that ring of Hating America with your Tshirt exclusively, because since the guy's dead nobody can license the image, so everybody's doing it.

Here's another thought: Does a Che Tshirt say "See that I am HISPANIC?" I mean, is this really a racial component here I"m not seeing?

I'm serious, I don't get the Che Guevarra thing.. he wasn't even a good Commie, he sucked cuz he threw down his rifle when he said "fight to the death everyone." I'm not putting a fucking COWARD on chest!

(I might put a chick on my chest who's afraid of her own shadow, but not a Che shirt..)

Try more like 20 years ago, old boy. I recall them in high school, and Che was chic even in his own day. But the tees predated RAGTM by several years...

[GAR]

Shit I guess it's been that long! I think you're right..