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View Full Version : Can we learn the real lesson of Bin Laden's death?



Seshmeister
05-10-2011, 11:05 PM
Posted by Johann Hari

Scramble the film backwards. Rewind. Go back to the day 10 years ago when the air here in Manhattan was thick with ash and Osama bin Laden was gloating. There were two options for the United States government -- to pick up a scalpel, or to pick up a blowtorch. With the scalpel, you go after the fundamentalist murderers responsible with patient policing and intelligence work, and steadily drain them of their support. With the blowtorch, you invade a slew of countries with a great blunderbuss of slaughter and torture -- and swell the army of enraged jihadis determined to kill. History branched in two possible directions that day.

We know which Osama bin Laden preferred. He wanted to draw the West into endless bloody wars that hemorrhaged billions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of lives. He told his supporters: "We conducted a war of attrition against Russia for 10 years until they went bankrupt. We are continuing in the same policy -- to make America bleed profusely to the point of bankruptcy." To achieve this, "all we have to do is send two mujahideen [to a remote, irrelevant area] and raise a piece of cloth on which is written 'al-Qa'ida' in order to make the [US] generals race there, to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses." He knew that every ramped-up attack would appear to vindicate his narrative about the "evil" West waging "war on Islam" and swell his army of recruits.

When bin Laden's favorite son, Omar, defected, he told many unflattering stories about his father -- including that he tortured his pets to death. So it's highly unlikely to be a double bluff when he explained that the day George W. Bush was elected, "my father was so happy. This is the kind of president he needs -- one who will attack and spend money and break [his own] country."

The West reacted to 9/11 by giving bin Laden precisely what he wanted. We tossed aside our best values, making them look like a hollow charade. And every time we did it more, the number of jihadis grew. The detailed studies by terrorism experts Peter Bergen and Paul Cruickshank have found that the invasion of Iraq, and the torture used there, caused a seven-fold increase in jihadism globally.

Yet last weekend, we saw how it might have been. The operation wasn't perfect: I would much rather bin Laden had been taken alive and put on trial, rather than summarily executed. But it was a precise raid. It took real risks to minimize the deaths of civilians. It didn't use torture. Most people in the world can support an action like this. This should have been the primary -- and almost certainly sole -- use of violence in response to 9/11. Instead, over a million people have died in the torrent of aggression. They were just as innocent as the civilians in the World Trade Center, and their families will never get their day dancing in the streets in vengeance over the men who ordered it.

I wish I could say that this is the contrast between Bush and Obama -- but that wouldn't be honest. This raid was an anomalous moment in Obama's foreign policy. Most of the time it has been a clear continuation of Bush's -- and in several crucial areas, a ramping up of it. He has doubled the troops in Afghanistan. He has more than trebled the aerial bombardment of Pakistan and Yemen, even though it kills 50 civilians for every alleged jihadi -- and creates far more jihadis in the process. There is still no end in sight in Iraq -- where 50,000 U.S. troops remain, and Obama has canceled the deadline for bringing them home -- or in Afghanistan, where the war is entering its tenth year. Osama bin Laden is dead, but our foreign policy is still giving him what he wanted. We are still bleeding cash, creating bleeding countries and more enraged people.

Why? Even General David Petraeus, the new head of the CIA, says there are only 100 al Qaeda fighters in the whole of Afghanistan. One senior military official, speaking to the Washington Post, compared their intelligence on them to "Bigfoot sightings." Crunch the numbers, which the conservative writer George Will reported recently, and you find we are spending $1.5bn a year on each al Qaeda fighter in Afghanistan. Is there anyone alive, except the private defense contractors making a fortune, who thinks that is a sensible use of cash?

The angry, fighting people who really are in Afghanistan are -- according to leaked CIA reports -- simply "a tribal, localised insurgency" who "see themselves as opposing the US because it is an occupying power". They have "no goals" beyond Afghanistan's borders. It's not hard to see why they fight. The situation in Afghanistan is now so dire that even the president installed as a puppet by the U.S., former oil-man Hamid Karzai, has been reduced to begging the occupying forces: "Stop bombarding Afghan villages and searching Afghan people!" while publicly threatening to "join the Taliban."

The fear that the country will become a hive of "jihadi training camps" after a withdrawal is based on a basic fallacy. First, they don't need training camps. The 9/11 attacks were plotted in Hamburg and Florida using box-cutters. The 7/7 attacks were plotted in Yorkshire. Bin Laden was living in a mansion. Second, there will always be somewhere in the world to set up training camps -- from Somalia to Yemen to Pakistan. The logic of this position is to invade and indefinitely occupy all the world's most dangerous places -- bin Laden's plan to the letter.

Many people are angrily asking whether the Pakistani authorities knew about bin Laden's presence. But few people are asking how our governments' actions may have made this more likely. For the past three years, the U.S. -- with the support of her allies -- has been sending unmanned robot-planes swooping over the country, incinerating thousands of civilians and increasing jihadism. When the country experienced its worst floods in living memory, it was used as a pretext to increase the bombings. If that was happening in your country, would you be more or less likely to cooperate with the people attacking you?

If we want to be able to dump bin Ladenism at sea, rather than just his corpse, we need to stop pursuing the strategy of expensive aggression he longed for. For the past decade, right-wingers have been chest-thumping about being tough on jihadism, while promoting policies that create far more jihadis. It's like bragging about how much you hate lung cancer while demanding everybody smoke forty cigarettes a day.

If you really hate jihadism -- as I do -- then you need to search for the policies that actually undermine it. The single most important thing we can do to undercut the jihadis is to make a key structural change in our societies 0- by breaking our addiction to oil. Today, we need the petrol from the Middle East to keep the wheels of our civilization turning -- and that sets up an inevitably conflict. The people of the Middle East want to control their own oil, and spend the revenues on their own societies. We want to control the oil for ourselves. Only one can prevail. For our governments to win, they have to support the suppression of the Middle Eastern peoples, no matter how inspiring their democratic revolutions, and instead arm and fund their vilest tyrants, like the Saud crime family. This is going to create shards of violent hatred of us for as long as the policy continues.

As soon as the news of bin Laden's death broke, I headed to Times Square here in New York, and witnessed a scene that hinted at these complexities. A 28-year-old man was darting through the cheering crowds and the weeping fire-fighters selling the Stars and Stripes for $25 each. He was an Afghan refugee named Awal. He told me -- in fractured English -- that he had left "because of the war," which was "very bad", but he loved America "because here you are free." A drunk guy who was standing nearby overheard us and yelled with a smirk: "I'm a marine. I probably killed your cousin!" A few people s******ed; more scowled. Later, some of the crowd began to chant about the troops: "Bring them home! Bring them home!"

Who does al Qaeda really fear in this scene? If we follow the marine's course --- of more callousness and aggression and racist contempt -- the remaining scraps of al Qaeda may yet revive with new rage-recruits. If we follow the path of returning to sanity, they will wither. Bin Laden knew that. We know that. Now that he is gone, will we finally stop playing into his cold, dead hands?

FORD
05-10-2011, 11:16 PM
If Obama had been President in 2001, I doubt 9/11 would have happened at all. But even if it did, this bullshit would have been over by Christmas of 2001. There's no reason whatsoever to stay in Afghanistan or Iraq now. Or any other country in that region, for that matter.

As the recent uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya have shown us, when the people in those countries want a "regime change", they'll take care of it themselves.

Dr. Love
05-10-2011, 11:16 PM
I think now is an opportune time to end the engagements in afghanistan/iraq and focus on the domestic front.

And to show off my new sig.

jhale667
05-10-2011, 11:39 PM
Excellent article....and reverse camel toe...awesome.

lesfunk
05-11-2011, 12:16 AM
It's kind of funny, as I was watching the news of the USA rabidly celebrating Bin Laden's demise, I couldn't help thinking "it's good that he's gone but he kind of already won".

SunisinuS
05-11-2011, 01:51 AM
It's kind of funny, as I was watching the news of the USA rabidly celebrating Bin Laden's demise, I couldn't help thinking "it's good that he's gone but he kind of already won".

Nah. Not while I am alive.

Nitro Express
05-11-2011, 01:56 AM
If Obama had been President in 2001, I doubt 9/11 would have happened at all. But even if it did, this bullshit would have been over by Christmas of 2001. There's no reason whatsoever to stay in Afghanistan or Iraq now. Or any other country in that region, for that matter.

As the recent uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia, and Libya have shown us, when the people in those countries want a "regime change", they'll take care of it themselves.

Those people have been around for thousands of years. I think we need to leave them the hell alone, let them have the oil and we can focus on fixing our problems here. The war on terror and the resulting petroleum wars will go down as one of the most stupid periods in US history. I hope we have finally hit the high water mark on this nonsense.

Hardrock69
05-11-2011, 02:01 AM
Heh...just what the fuck did he win? Not a goddamn thing! So he took out a few thousand people (many of them Muslims), and made a name for himself as a leader of terrists.

All he won was the chance to live the next 10 years in caves on the lam, and finally getting his head blasted open.

But then, these Muslim fanatics think the opposite of the way normal humans do.

So if fucking his own life by being the most wanted asshole in the world by damn near everyone is considered winning, well, Charlie Sheen would probably not agree with that definition. :hee:

Hardrock69
05-11-2011, 02:03 AM
Who is President at the time is irrelevant. Osama would have done something eventually anyway. He was already doing shit back when Clinton was in office.

He hated AMERICA. Not just Chimpy. Not just the 'president'.

Nitro Express
05-11-2011, 02:12 AM
Let's not forget the bombing of the World Trade Center parking garage when Clinton was president. They tried to take the towers out that way but it failed.

Seshmeister
05-11-2011, 06:08 AM
Heh...just what the fuck did he win? Not a goddamn thing!

He managed to start 2 wars, cost the US trillions, radicalised hundreds of thousands of muslims and gained immortality for his name for hundreds of years.

Nickdfresh
05-11-2011, 07:51 AM
I think now is an opportune time to end the engagements in afghanistan/iraq and focus on the domestic front.

And to show off my new sig.

It's like a lava lamp...can't.......stop..........watching........i t......

Nickdfresh
05-11-2011, 07:59 AM
He managed to start 2 wars, cost the US trillions, radicalised hundreds of thousands of muslims and gained immortality for his name for hundreds of years.

He didn't "win." Read Peter Bergen's article in Time, "A Long Time Going." They won't let me link it here. Despite the huge blunders by Bush, radical Islam is largely despised in the Arab world as evidenced by the "Arab Spring." They (al Qaida of Iraq) also managed to make every one hate them in Iraq...

Seshmeister
05-11-2011, 09:02 AM
Not a win but for 1 fuckwit with a few million dollars he really damaged us.

For a start we'll be paying hundreds of millions in disability payments to injured and mentally damaged soldiers for the next 70 years. Not to mention all the other people some of these veterans are going to damage when they try to live normal lives.

fryingdutchman
05-11-2011, 09:45 AM
Hardrock and Nitro are spot on.

Come on, FORD. You can't play the "if so and so was in office it wouldn't have happened" card. You gotta stop letting your raging hatred of Chimpy color so much of what you post. Sometimes it fits, but other times (like this one), it makes you look ignorant.

And I KNOW that you AIN'T ignorant! You're a damn smart dude, but you gotta be a little more objective sometimes.

Religious zealots with a crackpot agenda don't give a fuck about who's running the show in a country they hate.

kwame k
05-11-2011, 09:50 AM
I guess you have to quantify what "winning" is..........

If you considering winning:

1. Spreading fear throughout America to the point where we willingly gave up rights for a false sense of security.........winning!
2. Bogged our country down into two failed occupations..........winning!
3. Ruined our economy......winning!
4. Tortured people [many innocent] in direct violations of our morals......winning!
5. Threw America's world reputation into the toilet......winning!
6. Gained worldwide fame for "terraists"........winning!
7. By our direct actions in Iraq and Afghanistan we increased "terraists" worldwide.......winning!
8. By killing innocent women and children in those countries we turned people who would normally be our allies into enemies........winning!
9. Global "terraism" increased............winning!
10. Money, people, resources, and [more importantly] attention was given a world stage for "terraist" to spread their message......winning!

As with all of our "Wars On" we lost a fight that was never winnable in the first place but in defense of the "War on Terra" it made a shit ton of money for Bush's administration and their friends.

fryingdutchman
05-11-2011, 09:53 AM
I guess you have to quantify what "winning" is..........

Only Charlie Sheen knows for sure....

kwame k
05-11-2011, 10:01 AM
:lmao:

Seshmeister
05-11-2011, 10:33 AM
As with all of our "Wars On" we lost a fight that was never winnable in the first place but in defense of the "War on Terra" it made a shit ton of money for Bush's administration and their friends.

You can't have a war on terror or any other feeling, it's senseless.

I'm glad Obama seems to be dropping that nonsense phrase, may as well have a war on sadness or a war on fear.

kwame k
05-11-2011, 10:54 AM
You can't have a war on terror or any other feeling, it's senseless.

I'm glad Obama seems to be dropping that nonsense phrase, may as well have a war on sadness or a war on fear.

It's all a marketing term really.......war on drugs, war on poverty, war on AIDS, etc. An easy sound bite for the masses to grasp.

FORD
05-11-2011, 12:46 PM
Hardrock and Nitro are spot on.

Come on, FORD. You can't play the "if so and so was in office it wouldn't have happened" card. You gotta stop letting your raging hatred of Chimpy color so much of what you post. Sometimes it fits, but other times (like this one), it makes you look ignorant.

And I KNOW that you AIN'T ignorant! You're a damn smart dude, but you gotta be a little more objective sometimes.

Religious zealots with a crackpot agenda don't give a fuck about who's running the show in a country they hate.

The events of 9/11 happened (assuming you believe the official story) because Chimpy & the BCE did nothing to prevent them, despite over 50 warnings that something was coming down, not the least of which was that memo that the CIA handed Chimpy on August 6, 2001 titled "Bin Laden Determined To Strike The United States".

You can argue it was incompetence, or you can argue it was deliberate ignorance because they wanted it to happen. The PNAC agenda, written by the very people who would become the Chimp-Cheney cabinet strongly suggests the latter. They wanted a "New Pearl Harbor" to sell their sickening agenda to a frightened country, and they got one.

I don't believe Obama, or the legally elected President at the time, Al Gore, would have made those mistakes. And certainly not willingly. It's nothing to do with partisan politics, just a matter of competence vs a treasonous agenda like PNAC.

FORD
05-11-2011, 12:49 PM
You can't have a war on terror or any other feeling, it's senseless.

I'm glad Obama seems to be dropping that nonsense phrase, may as well have a war on sadness or a war on fear.

I'd like to see the "war on greed", myself. Unfortunately, it would probably go as well as all the other "war on X" fiascos, and end up making Gold Mansacks and BP even stronger. :(

Blaze
05-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Thinking of newer and better .... The healing of ______ , is not gonna do. The rehab of ________ not going to do.


The building of ________ that might do.

But thinking... it seems as if most people do not like to build they like to destroy. Hmmm. This is quite the conundrum.

hideyoursheep
05-11-2011, 01:59 PM
The events of 9/11 happened (assuming you believe the official story) because Chimpy & the BCE did nothing to prevent them, despite over 50 warnings that something was coming down, not the least of which was that memo that the CIA handed Chimpy on August 6, 2001 titled "Bin Laden Determined To Strike The United States".

You can argue it was incompetence, or you can argue it was deliberate ignorance because they wanted it to happen.

I'll take the apathy angle. It was apathy that allowed 9/11 to happen-but not only on the Bush administration's end-on ALL of us. We obviously weren't interested in qualifications for the job, half of America was looking for someone who wouldn't blow a load all over the Oval Office carpet once a week, and the other half just didn't give a shit. When it's smooth sailing, no one cares who the captain is.






Aside from that, I agree with whoever said we should GTFO of both countries now, and let them keep fighting each other. They've done it for hundreds of years, and will keep doing it with or without our presence. We (as in ALL western nations) need to stop with the insertion of puppet leadership in those regions, because it never lasts. (see Iran, Iraq, ect.)

hideyoursheep
05-11-2011, 02:11 PM
....and Dr. Love's sigs are worth the price of admission alone!:appl::wanker: