Yo, Sesh, what's your opinion on this?

[Unchainme]

The American Atheists:

The group claims the cross violates the Constitution’s Establishment Clause by improperly promoting a particular religion on government land. The suit contends that atheists are “being subjected to and injured in consequence of having a religious tradition not their own imposed upon them.”

Dan Blair, the communications director for American Atheists, told the Wall Street Journal’s Law Blog “we can appreciate people’s emotional attachment to this [memorial], but that shouldn’t override the Constitution.”

Read the full complaint.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/ground-zero-cross-is-focus-of-battle-between-atheists-and-christians/2011/07/27/gIQAWs6GdI_blog.html

[Nitro Express]

All you have to do is go to the US Constitution on the matter. It allows the individual the freedom of religion but separates church and state.

Also, the United States was set up as a constitutional republic and not a democracy. Why? Benjamin Franklin once said a democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. In other words the founding fathers knew social trends and group think would enter politics and so they set up a constitution that guaranteed universal rights to everyone and the law would be in the constitution and not mob rule.

That was the plan anyways.

So basically if you want to be an atheist the constitution guards your right to be one no matter what the religious mobs say about it. Of course they may lynch you but then that is in violation of your right to freedom, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Unchainme]

I hope to not come off as abrasive with the thread title. I only ask, because Sesh. clearly is an Atheist and very knowledgeable about his lack of faith.

My overall opinion on this, as someone who has a belief in a God, and is a Christian (al beit a non-church going liberal one). Is that people overall, have a right to practice what they belief so long as it follows the law of the land and is not harming another human being. If someone is so upset over a memorial shaped in a cross, than I don't know, request a plaque below or equal memorial honoring those of Muslim, Jewish, and Yes, even of Atheist belief. I'm sure people will have little problem with that if they view it through the prism of logic.

[FORD]

As a Christian (in the sense of following JC's teachings, not the fundagelical kind) I personally find it offensive that they took materials from a crime scene and made a "religious" symbol/shrine out of it. Especially when the propagandists used the entire incident to wage war on another religion.

[binnie]

I think what we can deduce from this is that the American Atheists have a lot of spare time on their hands.

[Nitro Express]

I think what we can deduce from this is that the American Atheists have a lot of spare time on their hands.

They probably are living off of government grant money and thus have all sorts of free time to burn.

[Unchainme]

They probably are living off of government grant money and thus have all sorts of free time to burn.

Why not use it to do good for others?

For all the fees spent wasted on lawyer, go out and feed the homeless or those in africa. Start your own charity for it. Help kids go to college (not just atheists, but anyone). There's so much better things that could be spent on, and it would give a major pr boost to those who are Atheists to the American public.

[FORD]

The best thing the Atheists could do to improve their image is crucify Michael Newdow live on pay per view TV. I can guarantee he will NOT be back in three days.

I would have said Ayn Rand, but that wretched Nazi cunt is already dead. Too bad her cult of followers isn't.

[Sensible Shoes]

So where is Sesh? Oh yeah, probably sleeping already.

[Nitro Express]

So where is Sesh? Oh yeah, probably sleeping already.

passed out with whores and empty bottles of scotch.

[Nitro Express]

Honestly. That cross was made as a memorial by the people who were there and experience it. The people pulling the body parts out of the rubble. The people who suffered respiratory problems due to all the asbestos and other contaminants in the air. People need to use some common sense and loosen the fuck up. It was a memorial put together on the fly by people in a horrid situation. It has nothing to do with pushing someone's religion on others. If it threatens you, then you have one big fucking problem. Let it go and let it be.

[Sensible Shoes]

passed out with whores and empty bottles of scotch.

Don't call the Seshmistress and seshdaughters whores! That's not nice.

[Nitro Express]

Don't call the Seshmistress and seshdaughters whores! That's not nice.

Sheshmates.

[Seshmeister]

passed out with whores and empty bottles of scotch.

Worryingly accurate... :D

[Seshmeister]

I hope to not come off as abrasive with the thread title. I only ask, because Sesh. clearly is an Atheist and very knowledgeable about his lack of faith.

My overall opinion on this, as someone who has a belief in a God, and is a Christian (al beit a non-church going liberal one). Is that people overall, have a right to practice what they belief so long as it follows the law of the land and is not harming another human being. If someone is so upset over a memorial shaped in a cross, than I don't know, request a plaque below or equal memorial honoring those of Muslim, Jewish, and Yes, even of Atheist belief. I'm sure people will have little problem with that if they view it through the prism of logic.

I think it's important to choose your battles and it's ill advised for the American Athiests to choose this one. Actually I'm kind of suspicious of an organisation that promotes not believing in something, a bit like herding cats. Why is it there is always someone who wants to start getting organised and taking minutes whether it's religion or table tennis?

That said, a few thoughts.

The cross is the most successful brand in history because it is so simple. It would have been really weird of none of that debris had ended up with one bit bisecting another, it's a hell of a lot less likely that it would fall into the shape of a fish. The clever thing about the Christian death cult is the way it uses misery. Take a step back and think about what the message is here. On the downside three thousand people were killed in the name of the Christian god(muslims claim to worship the same god as Jews and Christians), but the great thing is that god miraculously had two bits of debris end up in the shape of the cross to show how much he cares.

There can be no bigger example of there being no living god for people than him allowing this to happen. It's like the Jews, if their god was ever going to do something for them then the holocaust may have been a fairly sensible time to show up.

It's frankly a bit offensive the way religions use tragedy as a marketing tool but 9-11 is unique in being the first time one was used effectively by the other side...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-57vLZ8pctx0/TdsRtiIVz3I/AAAAAAAACkQ/kpTjWUpYcCI/s1600/Imagine%2BNo%2BReligion.jpg

[binnie]

Whether you are pro or anti-religion or not, it is bloody insensitive to campaign against this cross.

It's a bit like turning up at a funeral and informing the widow that she should have had an alternative service for non-believers because you don't agree with the 'death cult'.

If they don't believe, fine. Surely that just means that the cross doesn't mean anything to them - therefore, why the fuss?

[ashstralia]

Whether you are pro or anti-religion or not, it is bloody insensitive to campaign against this cross.

It's a bit like turning up at a funeral and informing the widow that she should have had an alternative service for non-believers because you don't agree with the 'death cult'.

If they don't believe, fine. Surely that just means that the cross doesn't mean anything to them - therefore, why the fuss?

binnie smashes it over the long on boundary for six...:baaa:

[binnie]

Cheers.

i just get frustrated when people turn tragedies/outpourings of grief into their own political/ideological agendas. It's happening with events in Norway: I wish the press, bloggers and all other commentators would realize that what it is about - more than 'left vs right', 'atheism vs religion', 'Islamaphobia vs anti-Islamaphoiba' - is people losing their lives. Narratives help us make sense of all experience, but in these cases they are a little too convinient and try to case a monopoly on truth.

[Seshmeister]

There were a lot of muslims in those towers so should there not be a mosque beside the cross?

[standin]

Someone made a religious symbol out of a death ground?
Eh, let them bow to a god of their choice.
Their sorrows are heard.
Kinda sad they chose to worship a tangible.

[kwame k]

:headlights:

[Unchainme]

There were a lot of muslims in those towers so should there not be a mosque beside the cross?

Sure. So long as it's made very specific that it was to honor those who were in the towers, and not for those who killed others in the name of their religion.

[SunisinuS]

Well since according to US law the Mosque was already "Grandfathered" in....I would rather have all religions gather together and think of people that were killed by criminals and hope and pray together that the one's that still live, cherish life. Life is kinda a human thing regardless, the God's can do their own thing.

[fifth element]

atheists are “being subjected to and injured in consequence of having a religious tradition not their own imposed upon them.”


isn't atheism a religion or "belief" of it's own?

and, whether or not it is or isn't...... do not all religions in this nation (Christians of all different kinds, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans, Buddhists, etc.) have to tolerate one anothers beliefs, faith, Creed?

What makes Atheists so special that they can yell "foul" if there is another belief not their own AROUND them...
or to be so self centered as to think that other beliefs are being imposed on THEM?

Injured? It sounds like a bad line out of a bad Drama to me.

[Seshmeister]

According to wikki American Atheists has approximately 2,200 members.

There are tens of millions of non believers in the US.

[Seshmeister]

:D

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:393956" width="512" height="288" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" base="." flashVars=""></embed><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-4-2011/culture-war-update---the-dividening-of-america---american-atheists-vs--the-ground-zero-cross">The Daily Show - Culture War Update - The Dividening of America - American Atheists vs. Ground Zero Cross</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

[FORD]

As usual Jon cuts right to the point: "Atheists, why do you give a shit??" :biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

I never realised that the cross was so bent out of shape, did they straighten it? :)

[FORD]

Maybe God fixed it? :jesuslol:

[Seshmeister]

Maybe it was an Egyptian god that made it happen and it was actually an ankh :biggrin:

http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/lyle-zapato/archaeologicons/32/Ankh-icon.png

[FORD]

Maybe it was an Egyptian god that made it happen and it was actually an ankh :biggrin:

http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/lyle-zapato/archaeologicons/32/Ankh-icon.png

If so, it was some sloppy work, because he got the top part all wrong.

[Seshmeister]

The top 100 stories you mean?