GM Wants the US Govt to Sell its Stake in the Co; Obama Admin Says NO

[BigBadBrian]

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- The Treasury Department is resisting General Motors' push for the government to sell off its stake in the auto maker, The Wall Street Journal reports. Following a $50 billion bailout in 2009, the U.S. taxpayers now own almost 27% of the company. But the newspaper said GM executives are now chafing at that, saying it hurts the company's reputation and its ability to attract top talent due to pay restrictions. Earlier this year, GM GM -1.02% presented a plan to repurchase 200 million of the 500 million shares the U.S. holds with the balance being sold via a public offering. But officials at the Treasury Department were not interested as selling now would lead to a multibillion dollar loss for the government, the newspaper noted.

LINK (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/general-motors-pushing-us-to-sell-stake-report-2012-09-17)

[BigBadBrian]

Massah Obama won't let GM off the Plantation. It's just a matter of time before GM is gone for good. Ford Motor Co., on the other hand, is doing quite well without government interference.

[ELVIS]

Chrysler is doing much better as well...

[FORD]

Chrysler is doing much better as well...

You mean the foreign owned Chrysler? (First the Germans, now the Italians. And bailed out by the BCE before that)

[ELVIS]

That's the one...

[Nickdfresh]

I can't wait 'til they bring back Alfa...

[Nitro Express]

I can't wait 'til they bring back Alfa...

I had a Spider years ago. It was a fun zip around car. Italian cars are rust traps though. Best to keep in the garage during the Buffalo winters.

[Dr. Love]

fuck them... they could run their company worth a damn and deserved to fail, but begged for our money. Why should we sell at a loss? Why should we sell at all! They wanted to suck on the government's tit when it was convenient and cry like little babies when it isn't convenient anymore.

Let them deal with the consequences.

[Nickdfresh]

I had a Spider years ago. It was a fun zip around car. Italian cars are rust traps though. Best to keep in the garage during the Buffalo winters.

There was sort of a boutique used car dealership in Williamsville, NY that catered to monied car geeks that sold Alfas up into the early 2000's I think....

[Nickdfresh]

fuck them... they could run their company worth a damn and deserved to fail, but begged for our money. Why should we sell at a loss? Why should we sell at all! They wanted to suck on the government's tit when it was convenient and cry like little babies when it isn't convenient anymore.

Let them deal with the consequences.


Yes yes! Send it all to China! Fuck the unemployed!

[Redballjets88]

Why is Obama obsessed with having the government in the business of doing business? I forgot what part of the constitution outlined this

[clarathecarrot]

Why is Obama obsessed with having the government in the business of doing business? I forgot what part of the constitution outlined this

While important talkers and thinkers like Nick Dee Fresh were pontificating the essentials of the intercontinental manifestations of the presidency and all the huge news of overseas indication of market idiosyncratic,... HEY LOOK AT THE MOON!!! ...and he looked....

The local city councils in your towns and the little tiny mice of the erosion of the constitution made it a profit business.

Then they stole your tax dollars and bought off your representatives and their strong arm robbery team, the cops, with hopes of even more cash and less substance.

...and here we are, traffic laws have been elevated to felonies, because they can rape easy money with rapeish type laws,...nobody gets their day in court, the constitution is downgraded to old news ...just like Nick Dee Fresh wants.

A American government that has more employees than the working class who pay they're wages...and we all know what that means..don't we...if not see, Roman Empire Fall.

The BIG PLAN ...it's working...

P.S. Fuck You Nick....ahhhh, good times...

[clarathecarrot]

I mean I always buy the Railroads first, don't you all....? then the airlines ( Clittin on the TV talking about the greatness of deregulation commie fag that he is)...then maybe Baltic Avenue for fun... then the Medical operations, NATION WIDE!!!!


YAHTZEE!!!

[FORD]

Why is Obama obsessed with having the government in the business of doing business? I forgot what part of the constitution outlined this

Well, protecting what little still remains of the manufacturing sector of this country certainly falls under "promote the general welfare", right?

Do I believe the government should keep a permanent stake in GM? No.

Do I believe the bailout was absolutely necessary? Yes.

Because unlike the Wall Street banks and the criminal insurance agencies, at least GM actually produces something. Granted, they could do it better, and produce more efficient vehicles, but it would be impossible to do so if they ceased to exist at all.

And I still can't get over the irony of Willard Mittens Romney writing his article for the "liberal" New York Times titled "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" when his very reason for being an inheritance rich fuck was his father being the CEO of American Motors.

[clarathecarrot]

It was a joke or you would have bought a stimulus car if you didn't you were one of the smart ones.

Free MONEY!!! for CLUNKERS!!!!

Best part ......free money junkies giving away their 400$ ride for a 15,000 loan the gubment knew they couldn't afford.... and 75% have defaulted on their loans....THE PLAN!!!!

The bail out is no different than the car scam...same trick...

I call it all,... THE GREAT PICK PLAY!!!

Nick needs to get back on and tell us all again about how he talks about all the BIG SUBJECTS that matter more than.... hey where is your toilet paper..?

I bet Nick gets toxic shock on his vagina, if uses the kind with the pink flowers on it.

[FORD]

Thomocarrot, you really need to stop mixing the cough syrup with the cheap shit beer. It's not working well for you at all

[clarathecarrot]

FORD you need to wake the fuck up!!!

You perhaps are more swayed by the tricks and the immediate goals than the ultimates that elude you.

Obam is now trying to get you talking about his new declaration of war on China than a historically designed purposefully failed America policy, that he and Hillary are working hard on.

He,...obam, knows, he is a one term pres and is scorching lady liberty and then his suicide of the american people ..just like a terrorist bomber.

[FORD]

Put down the crack pipe and make a half assed attempt to speak English, so I know what the Hell you're babbling about.

[clarathecarrot]

I know when Obam said, GOD while giving his shit 25 word attention whore speech, to the family of the, desceased American ambassador,.. that he meant, Allah.

I doubt he would follow any of his GOD declaration with, in Jesus name, we pray.

[FORD]

Allah is the Arabic name for God, you fucking imbecile.

Not that Barry said "Allah" or anything else that would endorse the Muslim faith.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/allah.html

[clarathecarrot]

Yes, FORD I know where the originations of words come from.

If you even read my last posts you didn't comprehend.

and that is ok.

[FORD]

What is there to comprehend?

You're mindlessly babbling some fiction about how Obama bows towards Mecca and prays that Allah will bring him a war with China, or some incomprehensible horseshit of that nature.

And what any of that has to do with saving the US auto industry, I have no idea.

[Nitro Express]

The last thing China wants is war. Nobody gains from war accept the bankers who finance the competing sides of it. Everyone else for the most part loses. China now is a pretty nice place to visit. Shanghai used to be a run down smokey city. Now it's a clean, modern city offering quite a few things to do and everywhere you go the service is top notch.

[Nitro Express]

There was sort of a boutique used car dealership in Williamsville, NY that catered to monied car geeks that sold Alfas up into the early 2000's I think....

I had mine when they weren't really expensive. I bought mine at a standard used car lot. You never see them hardly anymore. I was told to let it warm up before driving it. I religiously idled it until the temperature gauge started to move. I never had any real trouble with it.

[Hardrock69]

I had a Spider years ago. It was a fun zip around car. Italian cars are rust traps though. Best to keep in the garage during the Buffalo winters.

Your Countach still collecting dust? I'll buy it for a dollar! ;D

[Hardrock69]

Oh and Nitro, Thometard is just babbling. Pay him no mind.

The Chinese Great Capitalist Experiment is working wonders for their country. They have realized that the only way to truly take over the world is through economics.

But they are still in the throes of greed....they are making so much money as a nation now.....trillions and trillions of yen...that, as you said, war is the LAST thing on their mind.
They can kick their rabid dog North Korea once in awhile to make it foam at the mouth and act all vicious....China no longer has to....though occasionally they still have to go off about how they own Taiwan....and all of the South China Sea....

[BigBadBrian]

Yes yes! Send it all to China! Fuck the unemployed!

It's only a matter of time, Nick. If I were a GM employee, I'd be training for another career, mucho pronto.

The corporate hierarchy at GM is about as inept as it gets yet the workers will be the ones, ultimately, who pay the price.

[BigBadBrian]

Well, protecting what little still remains of the manufacturing sector of this country certainly falls under "promote the general welfare", right?



Close to 600,000 US manufacturing jobs were lost in the last 4 years. :gulp:

[Dr. Love]

Yes yes! Send it all to China! Fuck the unemployed!

Those poor, unemployed executives. I weep for their future.

And it's all because we refused to sell our share at a loss when they chafed at the stipulations that came with our help ... after the danger had passed.

Your heart really has to bleed to feel sorry for them.

[ZahZoo]

But the newspaper said GM executives are now chafing at that, saying it hurts the company's reputation and its ability to attract top talent due to pay restrictions.

LINK (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/general-motors-pushing-us-to-sell-stake-report-2012-09-17)

That should be clarified... "Pay Restrictions" at executive levels.

Of course they can't attract top talent... why the hell would anyone want to go work at GM on a reasonable salary and benefits program when they can go to any other corporate greed institution and make outrageous pay and benefits while slashing US jobs, stagnating US wages and generally fucking American workers in the ass at will...

[Seshmeister]

Pisses me off that those bozos who completely fucked up complain that only by paying tens of millions they can get new bozos.

It's the same here with the banks where the government has a big stake. Where are these pricks going to go with their incredible talent anyway...?

[FORD]

Pisses me off that those bozos who completely fucked up complain that only by paying tens of millions they can get new bozos.

It's the same here with the banks where the government has a big stake. Where are these pricks going to go with their incredible talent anyway...?

Well, if they were in the US, they could become Republican politicians. Look at Chimp and Cheney... two serial business failures in the private sector, and then campaigned that "government should be run like a business". And then did so..... just as badly as they did in the private sector.

[Nitro Express]

Pisses me off that those bozos who completely fucked up complain that only by paying tens of millions they can get new bozos.

It's the same here with the banks where the government has a big stake. Where are these pricks going to go with their incredible talent anyway...?

I have noticed over the years lots of our money goes to the City of London. I know it's one of the world's largest financial centers but there seemed to be a pattern. Then I find it's the most unregulated financial center in the western world. It's a crooks paradise. I thought Wall Street had gotten bad.

[Nitro Express]

That should be clarified... "Pay Restrictions" at executive levels.

Of course they can't attract top talent... why the hell would anyone want to go work at GM on a reasonable salary and benefits program when they can go to any other corporate greed institution and make outrageous pay and benefits while slashing US jobs, stagnating US wages and generally fucking American workers in the ass at will...

Compare executive pay of the 1970's to what it is now. We can debate the solution. We do have to be very careful who we are willing to bail out because part of the mindset of executives is the government will bail us out. This is why bankers go hog wild with their depositors money playing high roller. If they win they make huge returns if they lose, stick it to the taxpayer and with more people out of work there are less and less of those.

It used to be the stockholders would keep these executives in line because by them paying themselves more that hat to come from company earnings and that affected the dividends. It seems like corporate abuse grew once funds because stock holders instead of individuals who read annual reports and attended proxy meeting.

The Ford motor company used to have a formula that executives got paid on a multiple of what the lowest line worker made. Companies used to run this way. The real problem is there is just too much greed in business and in the government. There is a revolving door between the government and the private sectors.

[Nitro Express]

It's only a matter of time, Nick. If I were a GM employee, I'd be training for another career, mucho pronto.

The corporate hierarchy at GM is about as inept as it gets yet the workers will be the ones, ultimately, who pay the price.

GM had several problems. They stayed with SUV too long when the consumer wanted something else. GM loved SUV's because all they are is a pickup truck basically so they were profitable when they added on all the add ons. If you are a union shop the UAW forces you to keep lines open on models that just don't sell. What really burned GM was they got into the financial shenanigans with their financial arm that hurt the other lenders. Too many bad loans. Also what was not right in the GM deal is bondholders were ripped off.

[Nitro Express]

Oh and Nitro, Thometard is just babbling. Pay him no mind.

The Chinese Great Capitalist Experiment is working wonders for their country. They have realized that the only way to truly take over the world is through economics.

But they are still in the throes of greed....they are making so much money as a nation now.....trillions and trillions of yen...that, as you said, war is the LAST thing on their mind.
They can kick their rabid dog North Korea once in awhile to make it foam at the mouth and act all vicious....China no longer has to....though occasionally they still have to go off about how they own Taiwan....and all of the South China Sea....

China will be the world's next economic super power. They have a real manufacturing base (which is the foundation to the rest of the economy) and they don't have huge debts. I sometimes think the people who run the US behind the scenes figured they could make more money by outsourcing to China but if China became a problem they could us the US military might to keep them in line. Our military is now used to project the interests of multinational corporations. It's used to smash dictators who don't sell their assets in dollars or refuse to let certain business enterprizes come into their country.

It matters not if a Democrat or a Republican sit in the seat, Halliburton, Monsanto, Archers Daniels Midland are going to get what they want. Obama is a corporate owned president. Look how he let BP run the show during the oil spill. BP was in charge calling the shots, not the president.

[Nitro Express]

Well, if they were in the US, they could become Republican politicians. Look at Chimp and Cheney... two serial business failures in the private sector, and then campaigned that "government should be run like a business". And then did so..... just as badly as they did in the private sector.

The government and big business have morphed into a multi-national global government. If I want to sell goods overseas I have to do it with with the World Trade Organization's approval or I get fined. What the big boys have done is set up national and international agencies that work as gatekeepers. Agencies that used to exist to make sure drugs and food were safe are now being used to run competition out of business or making it too expensive for new competitors to enter the market. Also, the grant money only goes to big corporations now.

This is the problem. It goes on whether a Democrat or Republican is in power. Look one of two things are going to happen. The states get fed up and call a constitutional convention or the abuse continues to the level that something snaps. That will probably happen when the major currencies hyper inflate. This kicking the can down the road printing more money and running up huge deficites in the government has consequences. In fact, it's the 1% as you call them maximizing their short-term income in the stock market by steal from the average person. Inflation is a form of theft. If you really look at what Bernanke is doing he's stealing from the 99% and giving it to the 1%. This is happening under Obama. Supposedly the great savior of the average person.

If I was in the 1% I would love this two-party system. You get what you want from one party (usually two-term) and by the time the second term is up everyone is mad as hell and they vote the bastards out and then vote in the other guy you have bought off. So it's political ping pong ratcheting the same agenda forward which is to make large multi-corporations above the law and too big to fail.

[ELVIS]

The government and big business have morphed into a multi-national global government.

That's exactly right, hence the globalists...

[Nickdfresh]

Why is Obama obsessed with having the government in the business of doing business?

Yeah, gov't intervention in the economy. What a joke! I mean, look what a failure China is with their massive gov't interventions and subsidies!


I forgot what part of the constitution outlined this

I'm sure you forgotten, or never learned, about much of it...

[Nickdfresh]

Those poor, unemployed executives. I weep for their future.

And it's all because we refused to sell our share at a loss when they chafed at the stipulations that came with our help ... after the danger had passed.

Your heart really has to bleed to feel sorry for them.

Yeah, because my track record here is all about sympathy for executives. I was talking about the middle class and manufacturing which you apparently don't give a shit about...

[Nickdfresh]

It's only a matter of time, Nick. If I were a GM employee, I'd be training for another career, mucho pronto.

And why is that? Maybe they can all join our massively oversized and funded Navy?!


The corporate hierarchy at GM is about as inept as it gets yet the workers will be the ones, ultimately, who pay the price.

Based on what exactly? They've made huge strides and their market share is expanding with good new cars they would never have dreamed of five years ago...

[Nickdfresh]

Close to 600,000 US manufacturing jobs were lost in the last 4 years. :gulp:

Source?

[Dr. Love]

Yeah, because my track record here is all about sympathy for executives. I was talking about the middle class and manufacturing which you apparently don't give a shit about...

It must be lonely out there in the deep end!

I haven't referenced the middle class in this thread and you are in no way qualified to authoritatively speak toward what I care about.

Since you missed it in my previous two posts, let me explain it excrutiatingly clearly: I was talking about the executives crying. I was only talking about the executives. In no way did I ever refer to the middle class. You did.

I hope that catches you up to present.

[BigBadBrian]

Source?

Look it up your own damn self! With that nonsense you posted about tax evasion, I know you're probably on Google a lot today. :biggrin:

[Seshmeister]

I have noticed over the years lots of our money goes to the City of London. I know it's one of the world's largest financial centers but there seemed to be a pattern. Then I find it's the most unregulated financial center in the western world. It's a crooks paradise. I thought Wall Street had gotten bad.

It has been the largest in the world for the last few years. It started with Thatcher and then over the last 30 years they convinced government after government that in order to bring in the money they needed to not be regulated. Thatcher ran down our industrial base and swapped it for a bunch of bookies and dodgy dealers. It did appear to work for a while at least for the city if not the rest of the country but inevitably it's got us into this shit.

It's interesting though that it still only generated 5% of our wealth so 95% has been sacrificed for these people.

[Nickdfresh]

It must be lonely out there in the deep end!

I haven't referenced the middle class in this thread and you are in no way qualified to authoritatively speak toward what I care about.

Since you missed it in my previous two posts, let me explain it excrutiatingly clearly: I was talking about the executives crying. I was only talking about the executives. In no way did I ever refer to the middle class. You did.

I hope that catches you up to present.

Oh gee, I guess the failure of GM would really only effect the executives, then....

[Nickdfresh]

Look it up your own damn self! With that nonsense you posted about tax evasion, I know you're probably on Google a lot today. :biggrin:

So you're saying you're full of shit as usual...

[Hardrock69]

Of course he is. It goes without him even opening his asshole. :hee:

[Dr. Love]

Oh gee, I guess the failure of GM would really only effect the executives, then....

We didn't let them fail, and now the executives are crying about the terms of the deal they took when we saved them...

Regardless, companies succeed and fail every day. Do you think we should save them all so that no one is effected?

[Nitro Express]

I've been hearing how fucked up GM was for years. I've owned so many different cars over the years. The biggest piece of shit was a HECHO EN MEXICO Chevy Suburban that the engine burned oil from the get go. The dealer gave me a big runaround on the rings having to settle in and they finally replaced the engine. Then the front transaxle had catastrophic failure at 30,000 miles.

Then I had a GMC truck with the wonderful 700R transmission that had catastrophic failure. 700R transmissions are like disposable shavers, they self-destruct around 30,000 to 50,000 miles and you buy a new one.

GM always seemed to build pretty good engines but man is their drivetrain and transmission stuff lacking.

[Nitro Express]

We didn't let them fail, and now the executives are crying about the terms of the deal they took when we saved them...

Regardless, companies succeed and fail every day. Do you think we should save them all so that no one is effected?

Kodak is waiting for a bailout. :biggrin:

[FORD]

Kodak is waiting for a bailout. :biggrin:

Not really a valid comparison.

Digital cameras (new technology) replaced film cameras which are based on 19th century technology. Kodak could have adapted to this changing field, much like IBM started building computers and didn't really care all that much when Selectric typewriters stopped selling. For some reason, they didn't do so. Maybe they were afraid of getting burned again, like they did when they tried to cut into Polaroid's instant camera market in the 80's and got sued for it. (Got one of those fucking cameras for Christmas when they came out. It was useless within a year, because you couldn't buy the film after the lawsuit, and the Polaroid cocksuckers refused to make the film, even though they had an obvious customer base waiting for them to exploit)

Sadly, there's no such new technology yet which has effectively replaced the internal combustion engine powered automobile - though moves are being made in that direction (hybrids, full electric cars, etc.)

If Tesla Motors was selling millions of cars a year and employing thousands of people with living wage jobs, and doing so in areas where the economy was long ago built on this particular industry, then maybe it wouldn't matter so much whether GM survived or not. But that's not the reality yet.

[clarathecarrot]

You can bank on this!!!

In a couple few 20 odd years or so you all are going to be amazed at the wonderfull gasoline powered space ships that scoot your asses all over the sky and back and forth to your night job on, THE MOON!!!,

I allways like gas autos those electric cars were so lame; so you don't look stupid, will be what all these peace queers will be saying.

Tofu eat'n homos.

BANK ON IT!!!

[hambon4lif]

You can bank on this!!!

In a couple few 20 odd years or so you all are going to be amazed at the wonderfull gasoline powered space ships that scoot your asses all over the sky and back and forth to your night job on, THE MOON!!!,

I allways like gas autos those electric cars were so lame; so you don't look stupid, will be what all these peace queers will be saying.

Tofu eat'n homos.

BANK ON IT!!!Personally, I'm banking on the fact that within the next 12 months, you will have finally killed the one remaining brain cell you have left.:thumb:

[FORD]

You can bank on this!!!

In a couple few 20 odd years or so you all are going to be amazed at the wonderfull gasoline powered space ships that scoot your asses all over the sky and back and forth to your night job on, THE MOON!!!,

I allways like gas autos those electric cars were so lame; so you don't look stupid, will be what all these peace queers will be saying.

Tofu eat'n homos.

BANK ON IT!!!

In 20 years, if you're still driving something with a petroleum burning engine, you'll have to ROB a bank to pay for the gas.

[qikgts]

In 20 years, if you're still driving something with a petroleum burning engine, you'll have to ROB a bank to pay for the gas.

My Mustangs will be parked... But I'm sure I'll be driving a gleaming alloy air car that's two lanes wide so it will be OK...

[FORD]

But I'm sure I'll be driving a gleaming alloy air car that's two lanes wide so it will be OK...

I would think a monstrosity of that size would really be a bitch to steer around corners. Which is probably why an old Red Barchetta could beat it in a race.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djVGhqvl_8A

[qikgts]

I would think a monstrosity of that size would really be a bitch to steer around corners. Which is probably why an old Red Barchetta could beat it in a race.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djVGhqvl_8A

Yeah well... I just hope they widen the drag strips...

[Nitro Express]

In 20 years, if you're still driving something with a petroleum burning engine, you'll have to ROB a bank to pay for the gas.

A lot of people who live around here have ties to the petroleum industry. During cocktails at a Rotary International diner. the future of petroleum was being kicked around. There were of course a lot of different opinions. One guy said it was actually stupid to burn petroleum as a fuel because it's such an excellent chemical base.

What we kind of saw was lower cost daily commuters and even delivery trucks being 100% electric. Some more hybrid vehicles. One problem we have in this area is the cold winters. In January minus 20F at night is fairly normal. It's hard on everything when the temperature gets that cold. I don't think I want to be in a electric vehicle out in the middle of nowhere at night in the snow. I want to be in a big, time proven, gas burning SUV or truck.

So we are probably going to have a cornucopia of different vehicles and some of them will still be big oil burners. Most the fuel is consumed getting to and from work. Look at the fuel electric commuting cars would save. They would work fine in warmer climates with the people up north probably still driving petroleum cars because batteries become inefficient at low temperatures.

[Nitro Express]

Here's an electric street bike. I still think oil burning Harleys will be around in the future along with muscle cars. People want the nostalgia much like how people still ride horses for fun.

[qikgts]

Here's an electric street bike. I still think oil burning Harleys will be around in the future along with muscle cars. People want the nostalgia much like how people still ride horses for fun.

No doubt... They'll still be racing Top Fuel cars too. Right now Nitro is around $80.00 a gallon and they burn like $2,000.00 worth of fuel per pass including warm up. If people wanna dance they'll pay the DJ...

[Nitro Express]

In Brazil they run flex fuel cars because ethanol is cheap. So what you are getting around on might just depend where you live as well. You are still going to have turbine engines and diesel engines. I don't see electric powered tractors. But you can run them off of biodiesel made from agricultural waste.

[Redballjets88]

Well, protecting what little still remains of the manufacturing sector of this country certainly falls under "promote the general welfare", right?

Do I believe the government should keep a permanent stake in GM? No.

Do I believe the bailout was absolutely necessary? Yes.

Because unlike the Wall Street banks and the criminal insurance agencies, at least GM actually produces something. Granted, they could do it better, and produce more efficient vehicles, but it would be impossible to do so if they ceased to exist at all.

And I still can't get over the irony of Willard Mittens Romney writing his article for the "liberal" New York Times titled "Let Detroit Go Bankrupt" when his very reason for being an inheritance rich fuck was his father being the CEO of American Motors.

What youre describing can be answered through metaphor...what happens when we stop every forest fire and don't allow for natural burning? Eventually the whole forest goes up. Therefore we need to let the natural burns take place to allow new earth grow and flourish. Gov involment in business only leads to an eventual collapse ala soviet union. It's up to the consumer to make the right decision on supporting American industry. If all of our influence as voters and citizens went toward influencing business we would flourish. Study the difference between Marxism; kenysism; and austrian economics and youd find that government involvement is a bandaid

[Redballjets88]

More blatantly I truly believe in helping the little people but I know that the fed sucks at helping the little people. They only provide a safety net. What if people were able to keep their tax money but gov supported charitable donation more? Let's follow what Washington and Jefferson said and become independent of government and let those who truly care (and arent out for more power) like non profit organizations take care of the poor and less fortunate. What if we could allow the gov only use our taxes for what the founders thought tax was needed for. How about citizens take responsibility for each other instead of allowing a bunch of egomaniacs (your bush's your Kennedy's your Obamas and romneys) make our decisions for us. Like Jefferson said the government should be afraid of us. The biggest problem libs had with bush was the fact he took our rights from us...but is that not what Obama wants? 5 years ago libs didn't want bush to take our rights via patriot act and limitless war...so why give more of our money to anyone no matter what the project is? Why not use the amazing document that was a blueprint for America and keep the people in power? You cannot argue with this . Liberty and personal freedom trump all.

[FORD]

What youre describing can be answered through metaphor...what happens when we stop every forest fire and don't allow for natural burning? Eventually the whole forest goes up. Therefore we need to let the natural burns take place to allow new earth grow and flourish. Gov involment in business only leads to an eventual collapse ala soviet union. It's up to the consumer to make the right decision on supporting American industry. If all of our influence as voters and citizens went toward influencing business we would flourish. Study the difference between Marxism; kenysism; and austrian economics and youd find that government involvement is a bandaid

And using your metaphor, if we let forest fires go on for too long, eventually it kills off the wildlife, surrounding towns and cities and possibly a whole lot of people.

If GM had gone extinct it would have been much more than just one very large car company dying and all the people who work directly for them.

It would have effected the parts manufacturers who supply GM. It would have effected other local businesses where the GM employees spend their paychecks. It would have effected GM dealerships all over the country. A virtual forest fire of predatory capitalism indeed. And a casualty count too big for a country already crippled by over 30 years of these bullshit economic policies designed to favor the very rich, at the expense of the working class.

[Hardrock69]

There is technology these days in buses in (I believe) The Netherlands where the bus has a diesel or other type of gasoline engine, but in addition to it's usual propulsion duties, it continually powers electric motors in each wheel. So it gets insane gas mileage for what it weighs.

I read some article about the technology, about 10 years ago or so.

Personally, I think the execs at GM should just lick the Feds balls for a little while longer. They should wait so the Fed (hence the taxpayers) can earn a profit on the bailout. The Fed will NOT sell off their GM stake until they DO make a profit.

Fucking suits need to just stop crying. It is not like they are hurting anyway. Motherfuckers. :mad:

[ZahZoo]

If you really look at what Bernanke is doing he's stealing from the 99% and giving it to the 1%. This is happening under Obama. Supposedly the great savior of the average person.

I read an interesting article in Time this morning looking at how the S&P 500 is cranking along at double digit growth... but all of the rest of economic indicators continue to trend downwards.

Allegedly the thought process from Bernanke and gang is that fueling this bullish stock market will result in corporate capitol investment which will kick start growth and job creation. Most interesting how this aligns quite well with a lot of the Republican platform angles on reducing taxes at the upper end and corporate taxes will generate economic growth as well...

One huge problem with both sides of this... Corporate America is behaving just the opposite. They are increasing stock performance through high profits, generating record dividend and most importantly... sitting on $$TRILLIONS$$ of cash on hand.

Who wins?

The 1%... executives continue to reap huge bonuses and feed their investment cohorts in a continuing cycle of greed.

Who suffers... American workers are seeing wages eroding or stagnating at record levels. Our employed workforce is now below 1981 levels per capita. Basically the core foundation of our economy is collapsing.

It would appear some sort of miracle is needed to recover... Unfortunately I anticipate a major disaster combined with civil unrest will occur instead.

If a miracle were to surface it might come from the genius marketing machine in the banking industry... there are some smart folks inside banking. At some point they may just have an awakening that their current debt model of credit cards and toxic mortgages can not survive if they run out of paying victims. Convince their corporate criminal cohorts that hey... we have to get some cash flow at the bottom and middle or this whole house of cards collapses...

Nah... nevermind... they'll just find a way to make money off the collapse.

[Hardrock69]

That is what mysterious investors did before 9/11. Someone made billions off of 9/11 due to their short investments in the markets.

[Seshmeister]

I think millions not billions.

Probably Saudi funders...