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FORD
06-22-2004, 08:11 PM
Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws

By SCOTT LINDLAW, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - President Bush claimed the right to waive anti-torture laws and treaties covering prisoners of war after the invasion of Afghanistan, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized guards to strip detainees and threaten them with dogs, according to documents released Tuesday.

The documents were handed out at the White House in an effort to blunt allegations that the administration had authorized torture against al-Qaida prisoners from Afghanistan and Iraq. "I have never ordered torture," Bush said a few hours before the release.

The Justice Department, meanwhile, disavowed a memo written in 2002 that appeared to justify the use of torture in the war on terror. The memo also argued that the president's wartime powers superseded anti-torture laws and treaties.

That 50-page document, dated Aug. 1, 2002, will be replaced, senior Justice Department officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity. A new memo will instead narrowly address the question of proper interrogation techniques for al-Qaida and Taliban detainees, the officials said, citing department policy for requesting anonymity on their comments.

Bush outlined his own views in a Feb. 7. 2002, document regarding treatment of al-Qaida detainees from Afghanistan. He said the war against terrorism had ushered in a "new paradigm" and that terrorist attacks required "new thinking in the law of war." Still, he said prisoners must be treated humanely and in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."

In a separate Pentagon memo, dated Nov. 27, 2002, the Defense Department's chief lawyer, William J. Haynes II, recommended that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approve the use of 14 interrogation techniques on detainees at Guantanamo Bay, such as yelling at a prisoner during questioning and using "stress positions," like standing, for up to four hours.

Haynes also recommended approval of one technique among harsher methods requested by U.S. military authorities at Guantanamo: use of "mild, non-injurious physical contact such as grabbing, poking in the chest with the finger and light pushing."

Among the techniques that Rumsfeld approved on Dec. 2, 2002, in addition to that one, the yelling and the stress positions:

_ Use of 20-hour interrogations.

_ Removal of all comfort items, including religious items.

_ Removal of clothing.

_ Using detainees' "individual phobias such as fear of dogs to induce stress."

In a Jan. 15, 2003, note, Rumsfeld rescinded his approval and said that a review would be conducted to consider legal, policy and operational issues relating to interrogations of detainees held by the U.S. military in the war on terrorism.

Rumsfeld's decision was prompted at least in part by objections raised by some military lawyers who felt that the techniques approved for use at Guantanamo Bay might go too far, officials said earlier this year.

The review was completed in April 2003, and on that basis Rumsfeld reissued his guidance on April 16, 2003. He approved 24 interrogation techniques, to be used in a manner consistent with the Geneva Conventions, but said that any use of four of those methods would have to be approved by him in advance. Those four were use of rewards or removal of privileges from detainees; attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee; alternating the use of friendly and harsh interrogators, and isolation.

The April 2003 review said that removing a detainees' clothing would raise legal issues because it could be construed as degrading, which is against the international convention on torture. The removal of clothing, while approved by Rumsfeld for use at Guantanamo Bay in late 2002, was not among the authorized techniques in his revised guidelines issued in April 2003.

At the Justice Department, senior officials said that the 50-page memo issued to the White House on Aug. 1, 2002, would be repudiated and replaced because it contained what they called overbroad and irrelevant advice.

The memo, signed by former assistant attorney general Jay Bybee, included lengthy sections that appeared to justify use of torture in the war on terrorism and it contended that U.S. personnel could be immune from prosecution for torture. The memo also argued that the president's powers as commander in chief allow him to override U.S. laws and international treaties banning torture.

Critics on Capitol Hill and elsewhere have said that memo provided the legal underpinnings for subsequent abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Reacting to the White House release, Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy, the senior Democrat on the Judiciary Committee, accused the administration of continuing to withhold information.

"Though this is a self-serving selection, at least it is a beginning," Leahy said. "But for the Judiciary Committee and the Senate to find the whole truth, we will need much more cooperation and extensive hearings."

___

Lqskdiver
06-23-2004, 10:46 AM
Originally posted by FORD
Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws


_ Use of 20-hour interrogations.

_ Removal of all comfort items, including religious items.

_ Removal of clothing.

_ Using detainees' "individual phobias such as fear of dogs to induce stress."




No where do I see beheadings on this list. Where's the fucking outrage there?

These are prisoners of war, not fucking guests of the America. Information is gathered from such prisoners. If this list is specifying certain non-lethal tactics, then fuck yeah it falls under the Geneva Convention.

If some moron soldier decides to go further and start cock shocking some of these guys then you take proper action.

But shit, I swear some people would rather put Saddam back in power than have Bush as President.

Fucking numnuts...



P.S. - Poking in the fucking chest...GIMME A FUCKING BREAK!

High Life Man
06-23-2004, 02:39 PM
Boo fucking hoo.

These douchebags were in jail because they are criminals. Fuck all of them.

You want Iraqi torture? Watch this shit:

**Warning GRAPHIC**

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp

FORD
06-23-2004, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by High Life Man
Boo fucking hoo.

These douchebags were in jail because they are criminals. Fuck all of them.

You want Iraqi torture? Watch this shit:

**Warning GRAPHIC**

http://www.aei.org/events/eventID.844,filter.all/event_detail.asp

I'm not taking Richard Perle's word for ANYTHING. I wouldn't believe that treasonous motherfucker if I were standing in downtown Tucson on a 120 degree day and he told me it was hot.

Ally_Kat
06-23-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by Lqskdiver
No where do I see beheadings on this list. Where's the fucking outrage there?



thank you.

Oh look, some American contractor got beheaded. What else is on tv?

Oh look, we're keeping this Arab who might know valuable info locked in a room for 20 hours to poke him in the chest while a big dog growls at him in hopes that he'll break and spill the beans. STOP THE PRESSES! We are so horrible and don't deserve to live.

[/sarcasm]

High Life Man
06-23-2004, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I'm not taking Richard Perle's word for ANYTHING. I wouldn't believe that treasonous motherfucker if I were standing in downtown Tucson on a 120 degree day and he told me it was hot.

Watch the video. There's no room for argument.

The "torture" we laid on the Iraqis is NOTHING like that of Hussein. It's funny how the press conveniently forgets this.

FORD
06-23-2004, 02:54 PM
The big dog did more than growl. He had Iraqi sausage for lunch. Or did you happen to miss the "after" shots of the guy bleeding from his groin?

The point here is you don't use the "inhumane torture chambers of Saddam Hussein" as justifcation for a war, and then turn around and do the same goddamn thing, in the same goddamn prison.

As for the beheaded contractors, Nick Berg was murdered in Abu Ghraib, by a 6 ft tall guy with white skin. that's clearly visible in the video.

And this was AFTER he and his parents were listed on an "enemies list" by the right wing fringe group "Free Republic". I'm reasonably certain that Osama Bin Laden and Hopalong Zaqawrii didn't read that list

FORD
06-23-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by High Life Man
Watch the video. There's no room for argument.

The "torture" we laid on the Iraqis is NOTHING like that of Hussein. It's funny how the press conveniently forgets this.

Get me a link from an objective source, like Amnesty International. I don't watch PNAC propaganda from Neocon double agents. As far as I know, Perle's video is as authentic as a Milli Vanilli album.

Ally_Kat
06-23-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by FORD
The big dog did more than growl. He had Iraqi sausage for lunch. Or did you happen to miss the "after" shots of the guy bleeding from his groin?


i bet he lived though. I bet there was more good news to tell any of his loved ones than the loved ones of Paul Johnson.

And it's not just Nick Berg. It's the countless others. The continual beheading of hostages. Mostly American, and now I hear they have a South Korean. He might be dead already though. Hell, you're dead the minute they get you.

John Ashcroft
06-23-2004, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Get me a link from an objective source, like Amnesty International. I don't watch PNAC propaganda from Neocon double agents. As far as I know, Perle's video is as authentic as a Milli Vanilli album.

Ford you big kidder! You know I've already posted links to articles outlining Saddam's atrocities from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the U.N.

Let's not pretend we haven't seen these things, mkay?

Angel
06-23-2004, 03:16 PM
When will someone mention that the terrorists doing the beheadings aren't Iraqi's, and the last American beheaded was in Saudi Arabia, the WORST of all muslim nations!

Ally_Kat
06-23-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Angel
When will someone mention that the terrorists doing the beheadings aren't Iraqi's, and the last American beheaded was in Saudi Arabia, the WORST of all muslim nations!

And you think everyone who is attacking us in Iraq or is in one of the prisons in Iraq is Iraqi?

Pink Spider
06-23-2004, 03:25 PM
If one side delves in torture it does that automatically give free reign for the other to be justified? The atrocities by the occupying army will always be put ahead as more disturbing because these are supposed to be moralist commandos not scumbag sub-humans.

It's funny how something horrible can just be overlooked because of somebody's doing something worse.

Kind of like supporting Saddam while he was torturing those poor people in the name of anti-communism.


But, anyway have you all noticed that Al Queda never seems to run out of orange jumpsuits?

FORD
06-23-2004, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Ford you big kidder! You know I've already posted links to articles outlining Saddam's atrocities from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the U.N.

Let's not pretend we haven't seen these things, mkay?

Nobody's saying Saddam Hussein is a boy scout. But that doesn't justify torture from "us" just because it's "not as bad as what Saddam did"

And as Pinky rightfully pointed out, Poppy & JellybeanHead didn't seem to have that much problem with Saddam's vile torture when he was the BCE point man in the middle east.

High Life Man
06-23-2004, 05:19 PM
I say throw out the gloves. If our enemies want to fight dirty, fuck em, so will we.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a gentleman's war. Christ, even during WWII there was some humane treatment on both sides (excluding those fucking Japanese).

These people do not understand the Geneva Convention and the "rules of war." The only thing they understand is violence. And if that means some turd gets his weiner bit off by a German Shepard, great. At least that fuckhead won't be able to produce any children he can strap bombs to.

Katydid
06-23-2004, 05:32 PM
Saddam's sons regularily had prostitues beheaded by his sons on the main square in front of crowds.

In his prisons he had children, some had grown into men, had been there 25 years.

One of Saddam's aides wanted to go home for dinner, because his wife called. He left the room, Saddam followed him and shot him dead and threw him into a plastic scredder.

In his prisons former captives showed newsreporters where they were hung upside down from a fan, if they tried to bend up and get loose, they were usually maimed or beheaded.

When you people take up for the Iraqis you show your unpatroitism and ignorance. They rescued a woman who was in a cell next to Saddam's lion pit. Looking for weapons they found her. She was next to be thrown to the lions, there had been severa Americans to go that way. Saddam and his torture squad had people who paid to watch.

Pink Spider
06-23-2004, 06:16 PM
What about the mentally ill that were executed while Shrub was the governor of Texas? Who's stopping that maniac?

Viking
06-23-2004, 09:07 PM
If you define 'torture' as being made to wear a pair of undies on your noggin, you can take comfort in the fact that you still have a noggin to wear them on.

FORD
06-23-2004, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Viking
If you define 'torture' as being made to wear a pair of undies on your noggin ....

Depends on whose undies they are ;):eatit:

Katydid
06-23-2004, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Pink Spider
What about the mentally ill that were executed while Shrub was the governor of Texas? Who's stopping that maniac?

See, it's people like you that are giving Bush a bad name to foreigners. They already think we are infidels.

The Parole Board decides those things usually under pressure from the public outcry, victim's families. The governor can stop those things, true, but most governors leave it up to the penal system unless they are personally contacted by the prisoner or their family.

FORD
06-24-2004, 12:20 AM
Originally posted by Katydid
See, it's people like you that are giving Bush a bad name to foreigners. They already think we are infidels.



You are delusional.

Junior has a "bad name to foriegners" for three reasons

1) He's a fucking idiot who believes GOD told him to bomb 2 countries (yes he has said exactly that)

2) His father's CIA are the ones who fucked up the Middle East (and Central/ South America) in the first place

3) His foreign policies are written by treasonous double agents of the Israeli Likud party.

John Ashcroft
06-24-2004, 08:16 AM
A Harvard graduate "idiot", who happens to be President of the United States. Doesn't sound like he's all that dim to me...

What do you do for a living again Ford?