The Fiscal Cliff talks: a framework emerges

[FORD]

GOP Starting to Rebel Against No-Tax-Hikes Pledge

By DAVID KERLEY (@David_Kerley)
WASHINGTON, Nov. 25, 2012

With the fiscal cliff looming for the United States, some Republican members of Congress said today they are ready to break a long standing pledge not to raise taxes.

"The only pledge we should be making to each other is to avoid becoming Greece. And Republicans should put revenue on the table," South Carolina Sen. Lindsey Graham said on ABC's "This Week."

Read more of the discussion of the fiscal on "This Week" today.

Graham's comments followed those by another Republican senator, Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, who said last week he'll no longer abide by the pledge.

"I care more about my country than I do about a 20-year-old pledge," he said in a local interview.

He got support today from House member Peter King, another Republican from New York.

"I agree entirely with Saxby Chambliss -- a pledge he signed 20 years ago, 18 years ago is for that Congress," King said on NBC's "Meet the Press." He added, "The world is changed and the economic situation is different."

This growing chorus is about the pledge that Americans for Tax Reform president Grover Norquist has gotten hundreds of Republicans to sign. But in an interview with ABC News, Norquist says it's just a few deserters.

"The people who have made a commitment to their constituents are largely keeping it," he said. "The fact is there is more support for both protecting the rates, you saw the Republican leader in the house say rates are non-negotiable, and he also talked about revenue coming from growth."

But President Obama has said rates will go up for the wealthy. There could be some political cover for Republicans if the country actually goes over the cliff. All the Bush era tax cuts would expire, including those for the wealthy. Congress could then vote to actually reduce taxes for everyone expect the rich. Therefore, they wouldn't technically raise taxes and violate Norquist's pledge.

But Norquist said he doesn't think the public would buy those political moves, and he also doesn't think the country will actually go over the cliff.

"I think we'll continue the tax cuts. Not raise taxes $500 billion. Obama made the correct decision (by extending the Bush tax cuts) two years ago," Norquist told us.

Leading Democratic Sen. Richard Durbin also said he believes a deal is possible now that the Thanksgiving holiday break is over.

"We can solve this problem," he said on "This Week," adding: "There's no excuse. We're back in town."

[sadaist]

I say we hop off this fiscal cliff with a huge "GERONIMOOOOOOOOO"!!!!!


Fuck it. We need a disaster so we can repair. Enough bandaging already. Blow the dam already & build a new one.

A radio host here in LA (Bill Handel) says he always votes YES on every single tax increase ever. His reasoning is so that we go broke that much faster so we can finally start fresh & see the folly of our ways. He wants to push the taxpayers past the brink so they finally wake up. To him it is the only way we will ever change our ways is by hitting absolute rock bottom. I have heard worse reasoning.

[FORD]

The fiscal cliff is mostly hysterical bullshit.

The most obvious first step here is to simply roll everything back to where it was before Chimpy illegally occupied the White House. Bill Clinton left office with a surplus. Kill the Chimp "tax cuts" for the rich, and roll back the "defense" budget to the pre-2001 level of ridiculous bloating and that would be a good start.

An even better idea would be to roll ALL the tax, trade, and "defense" policies back to where they were in 1980. That's when the toilet spiral started.

[Nickdfresh]

I don't think going off the "Fiscal Cliff" would be the end of the world, as Warren Buffett has stated that it wouldn't be the end. But we're talking about upwards of $3000 the typical middle class family won't be putting back into the economy if taxes go up...

[FORD]

I don't think going off the "Fiscal Cliff" would be the end of the world, as Warren Buffett has stated that it wouldn't be the end. But we're talking about upwards of $3000 the typical middle class family won't be putting back into the economy if taxes go up...

Which is why you let ALL the Chimp tax "cuts" expire, THEN you have the new Congress pass tax cuts for the working/middle class in January. Nobody violates their stupid pledge, and nobody pays more taxes, except the people who should.

[BigBadBrian]

The fiscal cliff is mostly hysterical bullshit.

The most obvious first step here is to simply roll everything back to where it was before Chimpy illegally occupied the White House. Bill Clinton left office with a surplus. Kill the Chimp "tax cuts" for the rich, and roll back the "defense" budget to the pre-2001 level of ridiculous bloating and that would be a good start.

Fine. Roll back other spending to that era also: Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Unemployment Benefits, etc. Deal?

Also, Clinton era rates substantially raises taxes on a large part of the Middle Class. You sure you want to do that?

[Nickdfresh]

Fine. Roll back other spending to that era also: Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, Unemployment Benefits, etc. Deal?

Also, Clinton era rates substantially raises taxes on a large part of the Middle Class. You sure you want to do that?

And military & corporate-welfare defense industry entitlements?

I know you like your porks, Brianne...

[BigBadBrian]

Obama Hitting Campaign Trail vice Negotiating "Fiscal Cliff"

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/28/politics/fiscal-cliff/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Washington (CNN) -- An angry warning by President Barack Obama delivered well over a year ago foreshadowed his campaign-style approach Wednesday to pressuring Republicans to compromise on a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff.
In July 2011, Obama told House Majority Leader Eric Cantor, one of the lead Republican negotiators in the endless budget battles of president's first term, that it was time to make a deal or face the consequences.

"Don't call my bluff," the president said in ending the White House meeting, according to Cantor. "I'm going to the American people with this."
Obama subsequently held a series of events around the country, mostly in swing states of the November election, in which he pushed for higher taxes on the wealthy as part of his main campaign theme to restore equal opportunity for the middle class.
Obama met with 15 small business owners
He won re-election, and, faced again with the same fiscal issues -- a seemingly unbridgeable divide with Republicans over taxes and spending -- Obama is again taking his case to the people.
What is 'Fix the Debt?'

Failure to reach a deal means tax increases and deep spending cuts take effect in five weeks -- the fiscal cliff scenario that analysts fear could push the country back into recession.
Obama also wants an agreement reached in the current lame-duck session of Congress to include an increase in the federal debt ceiling, which is expected to be needed as soon as February or March.
On Wednesday, Obama meets with the chief executives of major corporations, while congressional Republicans and Democrats will talk separately with deficit-reduction gurus, including former White House Chief of Staff Erskine Bowles, who co-chaired a special panel appointed by Obama in 2010 to study the matter.
The president also will meet with those described by the White House as middle-class Americans who face a major impact from the fiscal cliff -- higher taxes and automatic reductions in military and discretionary federal spending at the end of the year.
One fiscal cliff fix -- raise gas tax

Obama concludes the week with a trip Friday to Hatfield, Pennsylvania, to visit a manufacturing operation and deliver a speech.
Meanwhile, House Speaker John Boehner's office announced Tuesday that congressional Republicans will hold a series of events in Washington and home districts across the country with small business owners to frame Obama's tax policy as a threat to new jobs.

The series of events on both sides showed the high-profile tactics being used to demonstrate to the nation, including financial markets, that a deal can happen.
Stocks closed lower Tuesday as investors grew increasingly concerned about whether Congress can adequately and swiftly address the situation.
With the U.S. economy showing more signs of improvement in its long recovery from recession, economists point to fears about higher taxes in 2013 as a potential threat to rising consumer confidence.
Asked why Obama was meeting with business leaders and traveling to Pennsylvania instead of negotiating directly with Republicans in Congress, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Tuesday it was important to bring the broader American public into the discussion.
The fiscal cliff resulted from a failure to reach a deficit reduction agreement in the past two years due to longstanding differences between Democrats and Republicans on taxes -- particularly whether to extend tax cuts from President George W. Bush's administration.


Obama made the issue a central theme of his election campaign, and now the White House believes the president's re-election validated his call for including more tax revenue in addressing the nation's chronic federal deficits and debt.
"This topic was perhaps the most debated, the most discussed, the most analyzed, for a year," Carney told reporters, adding that the election result showed Americans supported Obama's approach.
"To suggest that we should, now that the election's over, stop talking to the American people about these vital issues is, I think, bad advice," Carney said.
Last week, Obama's former campaign manager, Jim Messina, said the president's re-election campaign and its grass-roots resources will "live on," most likely as a tool to promote the president's second-term policies.
Obama for America, the name of the campaign, already released an e-mail to its distribution list in an attempt to educate readers on the president's fiscal cliff argument and to rally supporters behind him.

Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky complained that Obama was "back on the campaign trail" instead of "sitting down with lawmakers of both parties and working out an agreement."
"We already know the president is a very good campaigner," McConnell said on the Senate floor. " ... What we don't know is whether he has the leadership qualities necessary to lead his party to a bipartisan agreement on big issues like we currently face."
Obama wants to let tax rates for income over $250,000 for families or $200,000 for individuals return to higher 1990s levels, while maintaining current rates for the rest of the country. He contends his plan would prevent a tax hike for 98% of Americans.

Republicans seeking to shrink the size of government oppose increasing any tax rates, arguing that Obama's plan would hinder job growth because some small business owners who file personal returns would pay higher taxes under it.
While aides on both sides have been talking, no follow-up meeting between Obama and congressional leaders has been scheduled after their initial post-election discussion on November 16.
Time running out on debt ceiling
Instead, Obama met Tuesday with small business owners, the first in a series of events this week intended to highlight his push for raising taxes on the wealthiest 2% of Americans while maintaining current rates for everyone else.
After the White House gathering, three of the 15 small business owners who took part said they wanted certainty about their own tax situations while preventing middle-class Americans from paying higher taxes.
Andra Rush, who founded Rush Trucking of Wayne, Michigan, said her message to Obama was that failure to extend the tax cuts to the middle class could stall what she called new economic momentum in the country.

"I would have higher tax rates," Rush conceded, adding that it was more important for "ordinary Americans" to have more money to spend instead of paying it in taxes if everyone's rates go up.
Boehner and other influential GOP figures have declared their willingness to consider other ways to boost tax revenue as part of a broader deal that includes entitlement reforms and spending cuts.
That position undermines the no-tax-increase pledge championed by anti-tax crusader Grover Norquist, which Democrats consider to be a major impediment to a deficit reduction deal.
Some Republicans -- including conservative Sens. John McCain of Arizona, Bob Corker of Tennessee, Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, Tom Coburn of Oklahoma and Lindsay Graham of South Carolina as well as Rep. Peter King of New York and Scott Rigell of Virginia -- have dropped their adherence to Norquist's pledge.
Norquist responded harshly Monday night, telling CNN that those denouncing the pledge were breaking their commitment to voters. He targeted King for saying a pledge signed years ago no longer applied.

King "tried to weasel out" of the pledge, adding: "I hope his wife understands commitments last a little longer than two years or something."
According to Norquist, King knew when he signed the pledge that it applied to "as long as you're in Congress."
"It's only as long as you're in the House or the Senate. If he stayed too long, that's his problem," Norquist added.
House Republicans launch PR offensive on fiscal cliff

To CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger, the softening tone by some in the GOP was explained by new poll numbers that showed 45% of Americans would blame Republicans for failing to avoid the fiscal cliff, while 34% would blame Obama.

Republicans insist Democrats must agree to cut discretionary spending and make significant reforms to Medicare and Social Security as part of a deficit reduction deal.
However, organized labor and other elements of the Democratic base oppose any major reforms to the popular entitlement programs. While some Democratic legislators express willingness to reform Medicare and Medicaid, they reject making Social Security reform part of the fiscal cliff negotiations, saying it is self-funded and therefore doesn't add to the deficit.
The CNN/ORC International poll released Monday also showed that a solid majority of respondents -- two thirds -- supports the Democratic stance that any agreement should include a mix of spending cuts and tax increases. Of that total, Republicans favor such an approach by 52%-44%.



Another poll on Wednesday by ABC News and the Washington Post showed a strong majority favoring the Obama tax proposal to raise tax rates on the wealthy. In addition, the survey indicated most Americans oppose raising the eligibility age of Medicare, one of the possible reforms proposed by some in the deficit debate.
Without a deal, tax cuts from 2001 and 2003 will expire, raising rates for everyone starting in January. In addition, spending cuts would reduce spending on the military, national parks, the Federal Aviation Administration and other government services.

However, the government and Congress still would have time to prevent draconian effects from the fiscal cliff when a new Congress convenes in January.
William Galston, a senior fellow in governance studies at the Brookings Institution, called that a form of brinksmanship best avoided.
"To be sure, no one believes that non-agreement by December 31 would be the end of the story. After a period of finger-pointing, discussions would resume," he wrote last week in a New Republic opinion piece. "But equally, no one knows how the failure to reach agreement before the end of 2012 would affect the dynamics of the negotiations."
In addition, "we can be reasonably sure ... that national and global markets would react adversely and that businesses, which are already retreating from planned investments in new plant and equipment, would become even more uncertain and risk-averse."
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[BigBadBrian]

Defense industry entitlements? What, like military pay? Explain yourself, Nikky.

[Kristy]

[BigBadBrian]

Does any Liberal know how many Small Businesses make over $250,000 a year?

[BigBadBrian]

STFU, jhale... er, Kristy. You're one and the same, actually.

[Kristy]

STFU, jhale... er, Kristy. You're one and the same, actually.

ad nauseam

[Satan]

Does any teabagger know how many "small businesses" are anything BUT??

http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=National_Federation_of_Independent_Business

[BigBadBrian]

Does any teabagger know how many "small businesses" are anything BUT??

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...t-big-business

See, You didn't answer. It figures.